- NEW!
by AntigoneRising on July 28th, 2008
Selected by the asker, Theby. (What's this?)
On Answerbag, the member who originally submits a question can identify the answers that he or she finds most valuable. "Asker's Pick" answers show you which answers best addressed the question on the original submitter's mind.
Those who are completely ignorant about Islam and its teachings who hate it do so mostly because the large majority of modern terrorists loudly perform their terrorism in the name of the Islamic religion. Thus, people hate what motivates people to such horrific and evil acts.
On a side note, not everyone who hates or disagrees with Islam does so out of ignorance. The more I learn about it, and its prophet, the more I disagree with it.
by Rufus_T_Firefly on June 2nd, 2010
Selected by the asker, Theby. (What's this?)
On Answerbag, the member who originally submits a question can identify the answers that he or she finds most valuable. "Asker's Pick" answers show you which answers best addressed the question on the original submitter's mind.
I suppose that's because it's much easier for morons to hate someone else if they know absolutely nothing about them.
by 3bdiAllaah on June 2nd, 2010
Selected by the asker, Theby. (What's this?)
On Answerbag, the member who originally submits a question can identify the answers that he or she finds most valuable. "Asker's Pick" answers show you which answers best addressed the question on the original submitter's mind.
two things to see here
its "people"
and they are "ignorant"
people have a tendency to be ignorant and not ignorant and those who are ignorant can have quite a lot of reasons.
1) ego
-> due to someone or somethings influence, could be the upbringing which means sticking to what ur mom and dad and peers tell u
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on July 28th, 2008
ignorance breeds fear
fear breeds intolerance
media feeds the whole association of muslims with terrorists and arabs and afghanistan and iraq and the wars, so it's like "judeo christian society vs. barbarians" in a sense
the political animosity over palestine has also caused religious intolerance
i've heard the word "infidel" be thrown around on both sides - unnecessarily
and simply because it's not their religion so in a sense, they can :(
I think it might be the lack of global Hindu, Jewish, Christian, Shinto, or Zoroastrian terrorist organizations and the association of Hamases and Al Qaedas; suicide martyrs going to their 72 virgins; honor killings of innocent women; beheadings of NGO workers trying to feed or heal war victims; Shia and Sunni war gangs shooting at anything that moves over trivialities of scripture; highly paid death threats fatwas over works of fiction or crude line drawings... No, I don't think the media need do much to "feed the whole association of Muslims with terrorists". Muslim terrorists do that just fine.
-3
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
Hello miri long break? looks like you've upset 23Skidoo by expressing your point of view, looks like he's DRed you. +4 4u.
.
We can't DR his view, not that we'd want to. Look into the Hindu extremist beliefs and reports for their violence. The Gujerat train incident and the Baberi mosque one are just a few watched and some would say stoked by the politicians. I don't know about the Jews outside what was Palestine and is now Israel, but those who are there are pertrators of the worst injustice ever witnessed in modern times, apart from the shameful stain on human history left behind by Hitler. These victims of Hitler are now themselves leaving another stain on human history. Millions of citizens of Europe have pushed millions of Christian and Muslim Palestinians into refugee camps, taken over Palestine and set up an apartheid regime that is far more gruesome than the South African regime ever was in the worst of its apalling apartheid days.
.
As for the others, well I'm not sure whether they'll take it lying down if provoked enough.
by borasalama on August 1st, 2008
6pts.
by SABOTEUR on August 3rd, 2008
thanks borasalama and saboteur.
and 23skidoo thanks for your honesty, but there's nothing about 72 virgins in the qur'an, and there's nothing about rewarding suicide either, honor killings are condemed, shia and sunni politics were political before religion got thrown back into the mess and frankly that is a stain on islam, but that doesn't mean it's true islam.
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on August 3rd, 2008
There are a number of things that are not in a holy book but have yet become part of a religions mythology. And there are plenty in the Old Testament that I'm glad few, if any, in the 3 big Monotheism that share that book DO follow. My point is that it's not The Koran or the Bible - it's those who follow it. And I'll stand by my statement. There are no Hindus or Christians who blow up innocent people indiscriminately in the belife that they will go right to heaven and a pile of virgins.
-
For the record, I think it's a very sad irony that Israel is now acting they way it is. But it's another argument against any religion since they happen to think that land was given them by god himself some 5000 years back. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians is criminal. But that has nothing to do with my comments in this question.
by 23Skidoo on August 3rd, 2008
statement respected
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on August 3rd, 2008
respect reciprocated. :-)
by 23Skidoo on August 3rd, 2008
23Skidoo you might be as deluded as they are if you really think that they "blow up innocent people indiscriminately IN THE BELIFE that they will go right to heaven and a pile of virgins"
First is it really indiscriminate and not targeted - do they blow themselves where they happen to be or do they choose a target, if the latter, why?
Secondly did they suddenly discover that there was this prize of 72 or did they know this all this time, if the latter then why blow themselves up now? (and don't tell me it's the discovery of viagra, or however you spell it)
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
Statement respected, borasalama ;-D What a wonderful logical mind you have.
by Theby on August 9th, 2008
TY Theby. Just helping people to question rather than accept blindly what the media throws at us.
by borasalama on August 9th, 2008
and a -5 isn't going to make me change my mind either...
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on August 9th, 2008
Good on you miri, let the DRs know whenever they strike.
A DR who didn't leave his/her name is scared, and one that hasn't left a comment means they CANNOT find anything wrong with the answer.
by borasalama on August 9th, 2008
other than they disagree but that is their choice. salaams borasalama, hope you're doing well
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on August 9th, 2008
Was not me, Miri. I always say when I downrate.
by Theby on August 9th, 2008
no worries TBH i wouldn't take you for a troll anyday :)
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on August 9th, 2008
Thanks, miri. lol
by Theby on August 9th, 2008
borasalama -
Any explosive in a crowded public place is indiscriminate. If there is one particular target in that crowd then a bomb casually takes other, indiscriminately. But - I doubt that most such bombings have a target. They have a desired body-count.
Please note - I am no fan of Israeli methods either, in part for the same reason. And if you look at the US political section of this site, I think the entire war in Iraq is perhaps the first great tragedy on the 21st century. Indiscriminate bombing is carried out by Muslims, Christians, Jews, and atheists alike.
by 23Skidoo on August 10th, 2008
What differentiates Muslim bombers is that they call themselves martyrs and profess to believe that martyrdom is a fast track for themselves and their families to paradise - where it's expected they'll get various rewards including 72 virgins (or white raisins, depending on the translation). And if you look at some replies in other religious section, I think this is especially dangerous. Anytime people think that god is on their side in a war and "the others" are godless, then any atrocity becomes fair game.
-
How or when the martyrs came to believe in the martyr mythology, or even whether it's part of mainstream Islam, isn't relevant.
by 23Skidoo on August 10th, 2008
23. Nowhere in the Qu'ran does it say "72 virgins" - nowhere! Where do you get your information. 23, I put the question "Why are we no obeying Christianity?". I wanted to compare the answers with that of same question about Islam. If you look in the question regarding Islam so many people answer mocking our religion, cursing it, swearing and being totally intolerant and bigoted. If you look at the same question about Christianity, there are NO answers denigrating that religion. No swearing, no cursing, and not one Muslim condemning that religion. We Muslims are a peaceful and respectful people.
by Theby on August 10th, 2008
From what I understand the virgins come from non-required Hadiths. So some Muslims believe in them and other don't.
-
But their source isn't all that important (and I really want to avoid a scriptural debate). What is important is that some Muslims do seem to believe in heavenly rewards for martyrdom. And what's most important is that some Muslims feel their actions are blessed by Allah.
-
by 23Skidoo on August 10th, 2008
But as to the abuse you feel is given exclusively to Muslims - I have to say many Christians FEEL they are targets of anti-Christian propaganda, laws, etc. They site not being able to have teacher led prayers in public schools or not being able to post the 10 Commandments in public buildings in the US. This is nonsense but they feel persecuted nonetheless.
-
But - I will come back to the violence. I have no doubt that the vast, vast majority of Muslims are, as you say, peaceful, kind, generous people who would make fine neighbors and friends, teachers and public officials. However, Islam is the only religions today that rules countries, like Iran, in a form of law that is very repressive by western standards - and that kind of repressive law seems to be spreading with movements like the Taliban. Islam is the only religion in whos name fatwas are issued calling for the deaths of authors and cartoonists - and seeing those death threats fulfilled.
by 23Skidoo on August 10th, 2008
Islam is the only religion in whos name 10's of 1000's of people demonstrate in furious mobs for days, killing many of their own number, against a couple cartoons - at least some of which were intentionally misrepresented by Islamic clerics for the sole purpose of whipping up said mobs.
-
Again, I have no doubt that the vast, vast majority of Muslims are, as you say, peaceful, kind, generous people.But mobs and bombs and armed thugs who call themselves holy warriors tend to speak louder than quiet, prayerful, decent folk.
by 23Skidoo on August 10th, 2008
Sometimes it's not easy to approve of others. Either we think they are "very repressive by western standards" or they've got so much freedom that "10's of 1000's of people demonstrate in furious mobs for days" We think our western standards are the ones to judge others by, after all we are very comfortable with them. Trouble is others may be comfortable with what they've grown up with or adopted. We are ready to question the demonstrations (theirs) but not the cartoons (ours). We need more even handedness, more understanding, more tolerance and more positive, constructive dialogue.
by borasalama on August 10th, 2008
Westerners also have the freedom to demonstrate. But perhaps I should have been more specific - they were demonstrating against perceived western crimes - in favor of, and whipped up by local leadership. I'd love to see Iranians or other people in a Muslim country demonstrate against local law and leadership - something westerners do have the freedom to do.
-
And I'm not judging others. Just stating facts.
by 23Skidoo on August 11th, 2008
but we are judging others by our value systems. "My daughter enjoys far more freedom than your daughter. For example, my daughter can come and go from the house at any time of day or night your daughter doesn't have those freedoms" totally ignores the different customs and value systems of the other people.
.
Don't get me wrong Skidoo everyone's entitled to set their own limits for their freedoms, and if you want to make them limitless that also is fine, but it's not fair if they are going to impact on others and you keep insisting it is your right and they shouldn't complain/demonstrate. For example you want to poison the water in your garden, fine. But if this water is a stream that flows to your neighbour's garden also then you'v got to rethink your freedom a bit, no? Same thing about making mocking cartoons, think a little if you want to go beyond drawing your mother, father, wife, husband etc., no?
by borasalama on August 11th, 2008
Your first example is an odd one - sure the person who allows his daughter more liberal freedoms ignores more restrictive customs, but so what? You are perfectly able to set stricter ones for your family. My one addition there is that if both families live in a secular western country then both families have to obey the laws of the land - and if daughters become adults with full legal rights then the restrictive family can't LEGALLY keep their girl from dressing as she wishes, going to nightclubs, etc. They can, of course, ask her to leave the family home and they can disown her if they wish, but they can't physically prevent her from doing as she wishes.
-
by 23Skidoo on August 11th, 2008
And your second one - 2 households depend of the same source of water then sure, neither has a right to poison it because that could mean death for the non-poisoning family. But mocking cartoon don't mean even the slightest inconvenience to this who don't like them. Don't look at them.
-
Again, in a free, secular society people enjoy freedom of speech and of the press. We have the legal rights to say the president is an idiot, or that god doesn't exist, or that liberal are a bunch of fickle mush-heads, or that conservatives can't spell conservative, or that followers of a given religion are dumb. No one has to listen to that speech and you are perfectly within your rights to say what you want against it - so long as you are not saying "Kill the person who draws cartoons and I'll gibe you $1mil"
by 23Skidoo on August 11th, 2008
You missed the point in my first example I was obviously not suggesting that he should have taken into account the customs of the other family in setting freedoms for his own daughter. The point I was making was that what was regarded as freedom in one tradition might not be regarded as such in another. I hope that clears that one.
.
I agree with your second point. In a society of mature civilised people we would have laws that respected people's personal choices, provided the rights of others were not infringed upon. If the HQ laid the principle of 'judge each people by their own scripture' 1400 years ago surely it shouldn't be too advanced for us in the 21st century. The woman who wanted to dress as she wished should be free to do so provided standards of public decency and morality were maintained. Laws that require people to remove crucifixes or headscarves are symptomatic of opression.
.
Personally I think rights cannot be divorced from responsibilities. You might not agree so I wish to differ on this one. I don't think I can hide behind my right to freedom of speech or even facial expression if I carried on making gestures or statements that were clearly annoying to you. I personally think for me to say well "Don't look at them" would be a very arrogant response.
by borasalama on August 11th, 2008
That's very interesting :-)
by 23Skidoo on August 11th, 2008
Actually I think this is getting to be a very interesting discussion that I would like to broaden. I just posted a question:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/907087
by 23Skidoo on August 11th, 2008
Miri. I will pray for your great grandma.
by Theby on November 2nd, 2008
jazakAllah khair
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on November 2nd, 2008
because my religion teaches to love thy enemy..and your teaches to slay thy enemy....it is not a religion of god...and muslims have been misguided
by Happy-Dance on November 6th, 2008
thats what any religion says about a religion other than it's own. and islam says find 70 + traits for somebody when you see a flaw in them. it is about love thy neighbor.
(look in the OT you're gonna find similar stuff anyways)
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on November 6th, 2008
SLAY THE UNBELIVER WHERE EVER YOU SHALL FIND THEM.......IT IS NOT BEFITING OF A PROPHET OF GOD TO TAKE PRISONERS OF WAR UNTIL THE EMEMY HAS BEEN THOROUGHLY CRUSHED.....WANT MORE..OR DO YOU WANT ME TO CUT AND PASTE ACTUAL SURAH FROM YOUR QURAN..
by Happy-Dance on November 6th, 2008
AND WHEN THEY SAY THAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT FLAWS IN MUSLIMS..NOT NON MUSLIMS....AND MIGHT I SAY MY BELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR IS NOT A FLAW
by Happy-Dance on November 6th, 2008
LETS ME GUESS YOU ARE GOING TO SAY THESE WHERE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT..BUT I CAN POST DOZENS OF SUCH ORDERS GIVEN BY MUAHMMED...HOW MANY CONTEXT EXSISTED IN THE FORMATION OF ISLAM THAT WOULD ALLOW FOR SUCH EVIL INSTRUCTION
by Happy-Dance on November 6th, 2008
chill cathy, let's not play hardcore with the keyboard now. you called me misguided. i never said your belief was a flaw. i simply said for you to look in the OT (and i can copy and paste too, but that's the problem with taking things out of context, it's really just pointless) and you're going to find similar stuff as well in your holy book
anyway, i guess i'd say that my belief in christ as a beloved prophet and messiah is not a flaw either.
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on November 6th, 2008
anyways, apparently you're not going to listen so i'd consider this conversation done
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on November 6th, 2008
You've really got a problem, Cath. Your views and thoughts on Islam must be causing you much pain. Why not step back and say 'ok let me start listening to their side'. It's a huge task but why not attempt to read, in small doses if necessary, trying to understand the writer's point of view http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/3422383 good luck
.
by borasalama on November 6th, 2008
oh my god.....trust me i spend about 5% of my answer bag time on islamic topics....i know what islam is and the only pain it causes me is when i think of babies being forced into married and young woman being stoned...most of my time on AB..is dealing with normal people not..people like you that feel the need to
by Happy-Dance on November 6th, 2008
make the world muslim..by the sword or by twisting scripture..my scripture was truth before your prophet was born
by Happy-Dance on November 6th, 2008
"that feel the make the world muslim" you said. Why do you have such a distorted view of almost everything?
.
This is what the Prophet HIMSELF is told in HQ 2:272 "It is NOT REQUIRED of thee (O Messenger) to set them (people) on the right path (ie to make them Muslims), but (it is) God (who) sets on the right path whom He pleaseth." and in HQ 16:82 "thy duty is ONLY TO CONVEY the clear Message"
.
Now contrast that with this:
.
The AD2000 & Beyond Movement was/is a global, informal network of Christian missionary agencies, denominations, churches and individuals COMMITTED to world evangelism. Their motto - "A Church for Every People and the Gospel for Every Person by the Year 2000" - There's more @ http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/2327981
by borasalama on November 6th, 2008
good night..i have to get up for work at three.....
by Happy-Dance on November 6th, 2008
sleep well, salam eleikom
by borasalama on November 6th, 2008
'eleikom' means 'to you' ?
by Lilly on November 24th, 2008
yes it does
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on November 24th, 2008
in my language, we say 'ghalikom' (sounds alikom) pretty similar! :) thanks, good day!
by Lilly on November 24th, 2008
what language is that? and hope you have a good day too :)
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on November 24th, 2008
Maltese language :) has some arabic origins apart from italian english etc !
thanks miri :)
by Lilly on November 24th, 2008
interesting. thanks for the education :P
hope you're doing well!
by miRi hates social norms and regulations on November 24th, 2008
miRi, "infidel" simply means "unbeliever". It was first used by the English. It should not be seen as an insult, although I know it is. Salaam
by Theby on January 21st, 2009
Rubbish Theby. The word Infidel comes from the Latin Infidelis.
by Bohemian is back on October 4th, 2009
I said it was FIRST USED by the English. This from Wiki: Infidel was first used in Middle English circa 1460 (adjective, noun), from the Middle French infidèle, and from Latin infidelis "unfaithful," later "unbelieving", in the 15c. meaning "a non-Christian" (especially a Saracen); later "one who does not believe in religion" (1527).
Get your facts straight.
by Theby on October 4th, 2009
Well it wasn't FİRST USED by the English if it originally came from the Latin word, was it? The text states that is was first used by the English circa 1460, NOT that they were the first people to use it.
by Bohemian is back on October 4th, 2009
Wrong! Bored. Unsub
by Theby on October 4th, 2009
Shame on you Theby.
by Bohemian is back on October 4th, 2009
"Well it wasn't FİRST USED by the English if it originally came from the Latin word, was it?"
.
The word "infidel" was first used by the English. The Latin word is "infidelis".
.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was Anglicized by the English. ;)
by Brian on October 11th, 2009
Sorry Brian, I really do not see your point. The word predates 1460 by at least 12 centuries. and just because the English leave the 'is' off the end of the word does not make them the first people to use it!;)
by Bohemian is back on October 11th, 2009
@borsalama - because Christians are mistreated, not accepted, looked on with suspicion etc in muslim countries and just as muslims have a hard time in the US, Christians have an even worse time in muslim countries. And I know it hasn't always been like that. At one time muslim countries were more tolerant than their Christian successors (thinking of Spain in particular) but that is no longer the case. I think if tolerance levels had been maintained in muslim countries it would have humiliated the Christian countries into being more tolerant themselves. Now, all we are reduced to is a tit-for-tat situation.
by Bohemian is back on October 11th, 2009
Excalibur I agree with most of what you're saying. However, I cannot agree with your "just as muslims have a hard time in the US, Christians have an EVEN WORSE time in muslim countries"
- are Christians when going through airports in Muslim countries singled out for "random" security checks, humiliated by probing questions and body searches and delayed to the point of missing their flights?
- do Muslim countries pass laws banning Christians from wearing clothing that conforms with their faith?
- do Christian women, minding their own lawful business, get verbally abused by passing strangers and have items of their clothing pulled off?
- do Churches get torched or have their windows smashed?
- do Christians have their graves vandalised?
by borasalama on October 11th, 2009
Actually, borsalama, I can just about answer 'yes' to all of these questions. I don't know what your experience of living in muslim countries is and that is your business but I can assure you that all is not well in paradise, so to speak. The reports of attacks and murders are not just hear say. They are real. As to dress, what Western woman would dare to wear western clothes in Saudi Arabia? And in other muslim countries, the abuse that western women have to put up with is incredible. Of course, there are many highly educated muslims who are horrified by such abuse. But it happens and is not infrequent either.
by Bohemian is back on October 11th, 2009
As for churches and graves, please read the news. Why do you think so many Christians living in muslim countries have left? With regard to airport security, not being a westerner going through airport security in a muslim country you would be unaware of their body searches and delays. How could you possible know if Robert was body searched or not on his way out of Saudi Arabia?
All I can say is you need to do a little research before putting such questions out there. The difference between the US and many muslim countries is that the law protects you in the US. In many muslim countries the law does not protect minorities.
by Bohemian is back on October 11th, 2009
Oh really?
.
Sorry, but I am not aware of Muslim countries passing legislation banning Christian women from wearing clothing they feel they need to wear to comply with their faith. Next, you'll tell me of the Muslim countries who have spent billions to rain down bombs from the skies on Christian wedding parties. Or humiliating Christians rounded up in occupied lands and locked up in prisons, Abu Ghraib style. I think I'm wasting your time.
.
I leave you with the salutation of Muslims and of Jesus whom Muslims hold dear to their heart - salam eleikom.
by borasalama on October 11th, 2009
No woman can wear western clothing in Saudi and you know that. And we don't need to mention Afghanistan. Many muslim countries frown on a womans arms and legs showing at all. Where on earth do you live borasalama that you don't know these things?
by Bohemian is back on October 12th, 2009
Borasalama quote you 'Next, you'll tell me of the Muslim countries who have spent billions to rain down bombs from the skies on Christian wedding parties' - And don't put words into my mouth Borasalama. I have never and will never say such heinous things as you suggest. I have never and will never say such heinous things as you suggest unless there is documented evidence for it. Christians have been persecuted and murdered for years in muslim countries. That is why they leave in such vast numbers. And yet muslims continue to emigrate to the west. It must be paradise!
by Bohemian is back on October 12th, 2009
Excalibur we were talking about the safety and security with which Muslims and Christians can PRACTICE THEIR FAITHS.
.
You are now saying "Christians have been persecuted and murdered for years in muslim countries. That is why they leave in such vast numbers, And yet muslims continue to emigrate to the west. It must be paradise" - you've got a very short memory. You might benefit by reading some objective history. You can start with something called the Crusades, you can then move onto the Inquisition. Also look up the Conquistadors and moving to more recent times the massacre of Bosnians. Find out about the Balfour Declaration and how Palestinians (Christians and Muslims) have been driven out of Palestine for the creation of Israel for the Jews, an injustice kept alive by American taxpayers. Read about the persecution of Jews in Europe culminating in Hitler's final solution in which it is said 6 million Jews were killed......
by borasalama on October 12th, 2009
I know all about that Borsalama. And you forget my reference to history further up in the thread. We are talking about conditions now not 500 years ago and that history does not excuse what happens to Christians in muslim countries now and you know that. And I doubt very much that muslims are trying to emigrate to Serbia. We all know about Bosnia and everyone sympathises with the Bosnians and still does. The plain fact is that many muslims are trying to get into Europe and the US so their conditions in the west cannot be that bad, can they?
by Bohemian is back on October 13th, 2009
The migration of people for economic reason is another issue all together. When certain western countries took control of vast areas of the world (by fair means or foul is yet another issue) they divided the lands amongst themselves, creating colonies. They facilitated the movements of skilled and unskilled labour between different parts of their colonial empires, according to their needs. They took natural resources from their colonies and left behind their language and culture. Short-sighted policies led to the rich growing richer and the poor becomig poorer. The colonies have been relinquished but the process of economic migration continues, with those from former French colonies heading to France and those from former British ones taking their skills to the UK. Naturally, the pot with the most honey will attract the most honey seekers, which is also why there is more western interest in Iraq and Saudi Arabia than in Rwanda and Burundi.
by borasalama on October 13th, 2009
first of all Bosnians were saved by "christian" western countries..the muslim nations were no where to be found..America and other western nations have a history of helping the oppressed regardless of religious background
by Happy-Dance on October 13th, 2009
"coughing" in disbelief. WTF?
by Theby on October 13th, 2009
@ borsalama. No one emigrates unless they are treated fairly in the host country or unless conditions in their own country are worse.
@Happy Dance. In colonial times the poor were exploited whether they were in western countries or in the colonies and that is a fact that cannot be disputed. Relief organizations are a different matter and can only relieve the plight of a few. With regards to Bosnia, everyone looked on whilst thousands were killed, but in the end the US helped put a stop to it. Let us not forget the Dutch peace keeping troops who stood and watched whilst hundreds were slaughtered and would not let any of them into the safety of their compound!
@Theby Swearing does not suit a true muslim.
by Bohemian is back on October 14th, 2009
@Happy Dance "On Sept. 25, 1991, the United Nations imposed an arms embargo on the former Yugoslavia" This left Serbia as the most heavily armed state in the region. All the Bosnians wanted was access to weapons so that they could defend themselves against the Serbs. Many argued that it would "make more sense to lift the arms embargo and permit the Bosnian government to provide for its own self-defense"
But there were those who had planned to divide Bosnia between the Serbs and the Croats. "Lifting the arms embargo would scuttle their plans by providing the 100,000-strong Bosnian army the ability to properly defend the territorial integrity of Bosnia"
.
Denied weapons to defend themselves, Bosnians were given a safe haven but "In 1995 a massacre occurred in the UN safe haven of Srebrenica. Bosnian Muslim males were killed by Bosnian Serb forces" It was estimated that "between 7,000 and 8,000 Muslim men were killed by Serb soldiers following the fall of Srebrenica"
.
@ Excalibur we're not talking about migration, but about the treatment of people settled in their respective countries of choice. The same thing happened with the gradual demonisation of the Jews throughout Europe. They were regarded as a problem that just wouldn't go away, until Hitler came up with his ghastly final solution.
by borasalama on October 14th, 2009
Migration is directly affected by treatment of immigrants in the host country so it is related. The whole point of this is that the west has laws to protect individual right whatever the nationality. In developing nations this is not the case. Therefore, immigrants or minorities can be treated badly with little recourse to the law.
by Bohemian is back on October 14th, 2009
I think man-made law is weak, it is openly violated where enough public support can be whipped up against it. History has proved this to be so in the treatment of blacks in certain parts of America and of Jews in Europe. There IS "a rise in anti-Muslim sentiment as reflected in the polls" see http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=127fe2880e48951b564ac2f3e171242e while "Religious hate crimes, mostly against Muslims, have risen six-fold in London" says a BBC report @ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4740015.stm .
.
Man-made laws are also violated in secret all the time by many who give in to the temptation of easy money, from the petty criminals to the wealthy smugglers, tax evaders and corrupt businessmen and government officials.
.
The best law is that which comes from within oneself. This is what Islam tries to inculcate. Muslims constitute the world's biggest community of non-drinkers of alcohol. No man-made prohibition law has achieved that.
by borasalama on October 15th, 2009
Borasalama: Stay in the present because that is what we are talking about. Man made laws are better than no law at all, borasalama and you know that if anyone was to violate the law, including law enforcement officers in the US, they can be brought to justice. So please don't try and compare the legal system in the west to that of developing nations. There just is no comparison.
by Bohemian is back on October 15th, 2009
.'The best law is that which comes from within oneself' - please, borasalama, this has nothing to do with abuse of human rights within the legal system (or lack of it) in developed and developing nations. Be logical now. And prohibition of alcohol in many muslim countries just means that the black market thrives, and muslims go on holiday where they can drink, and you must be aware of that.
by Bohemian is back on October 15th, 2009
I can see you have a very uncompromising 'west is best' belief. You probably see my open discussion as a threat to that belief, so I'll leave you with the salutation of Jesus and of Muslims around the world - salam eleikom.
.
"Borasalama: Stay in the present" - The links I gave you talk about the the present.
.
I gave you links to reports confirmig that hate crimes against Muslims HAS increased IN THE US. You accept it or explain why that's not true. Instead you come up with "don't try and compare the legal system in the west to that of developing nations. There just is no comparison"
.
In Muslim countries alcohol "black market thrives, and muslims go on holiday where they can drink" - There are 1.4 BILLION Muslims in the world. I leave you to work out the percentage of those who do what you claim and then see whether that changes what I said about Muslims being the world's biggest community of non-drinkers of alcohol
by borasalama on October 15th, 2009
Certainly not. But there is no point ignoring what happens in reality. I would be very interested in knowing exactly where you live. From what you say you do not live in a muslim country but rather in the US or the UK where most muslims feel like a fish out of water. Anyone can see from your threads that you talk constantly about the past. In fact one of the other Abers actually refered to it.
by Bohemian is back on October 15th, 2009
I don't deny that there are hate crimes against muslims. However, you should look up the crimes against Christians in muslims countries. I think you will find it quite shocking compared to what muslims put up with in the US and Europe (if one can even begin to discount the number of people killed by muslims in those countries).
by Bohemian is back on October 15th, 2009
I find your arguments just another twisted way of trying to justify muslims discontent against the west. When will you all just BE HAPPY and get on with your lives without WİNGEİNG the whole time? Don't you think anyone else has any hardships to deal with other than yourselves? And with regard to alcohol, where exactly do you live again? In any muslim country where alcohol is sold, muslims drink so don't try an pull the holier than thou cards out on me borasalama. Whereever you are, you need to travel and observe. You might learn something about your fellow muslims.
by Bohemian is back on October 15th, 2009
We already have shameful records of our treatment of minorities, the Blacks and the Jews, amongst us. We now have respectable sources gathering reliable data and alerting us to what could turn out to be a shameful treatment of yet another minority group amongst us, the Muslims. Should we dismiss it as whingeing or should we do what we can to stop the spread of hatred that could lead to another stain in our history.
.
Here’s a report from Wikipedia. See what hatred does. “It was while Marwa el-Sherbini was in the dock recalling how the accused had insulted her for wearing the hijab after she asked him to let her son sit on a swing last summer, that the very same man strode across the Dresden courtroom and plunged a knife into her 18 times.
Her three-year-old son Mustafa was forced to watch as his mother slumped to the courtroom floor.
Even her husband Elvi Ali Okaz could do nothing as the 28-year-old Russian stock controller who was being sued for insult and abuse took the life of his pregnant wife. As Okaz ran to save her, he too was brought down, shot by a police officer who mistook him for the attacker. He is now in intensive care in a Dresden hospital”
by borasalama on October 16th, 2009
Borasalama, we all know about blacks and jews. Don't bring this into the discussion. Racism is everywhere. But showing one incident against a muslim woman does not make a case for the whole of the muslim world. Perhaps you should look up the attacks on Christians in muslim countries. You might find it interesting.
by Bohemian is back on October 17th, 2009
I am against ALL hate crimes from ANY quarter. You are in denial that it is happening against Muslims, despite reports of damning statistics by respectable organisations. I quote the details of one recent incident to illustrate the horrors of hate and you say that it is just an isolated case.
.
It seems you want to live in your world of denial and I should not intrude into it anymore.
.
I leave you with the salutation of Jesus and of Muslims everywhere - salam eleikom.
by borasalama on October 17th, 2009
I certainly am not in denial. I clearly stated that discrimination is everywhere. But muslims are not only the victims, they are the perpetrators. And in the US, muslims have recourse to justice. In muslim countries, minorities do not have this priviledge. I wonder how many muslims leave the US due to discrimination compared to the number of Christians leaving muslim countries due to discrimination and abuse of human rights....?
by Bohemian is back on October 17th, 2009
"they (Muslims) are the perpetrators" really, brother?
.
let's pray for guidance and justice so that we may all live in peace.
by borasalama on October 18th, 2009
Read about human rights in muslim countries. It is very enlightening. And don't forget the abuse that children suffer at the hands of their muslim fathers even in the US.
by Bohemian is back on October 18th, 2009
@borasalama: http://www.worthynews.com/6759-breaking-news-taliban-threatens-to-kill-more-christians
@borasalama: http://www.islam-watch.org/iw-new/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=218:barbaric-islamic-cruelty-on-a-muslim-woman-in-west-bengal-india&catid=73:brahmachari&Itemid=58
by Bohemian is back on October 19th, 2009
@borasalama: http://www.aina.org/news/20091012150443.htm
by Bohemian is back on October 19th, 2009
If you're going to research, use moderately neutral sources. All three sources you've quoted are very heavily biased anti-Muslim sites. If anyone keeps reading such poisonous sources they're bound to get filled with hatred agaist Islam. Do campaign against injustice, that's a very worthy thing to do, but don't drink poison, that is self-inflicted damage.
by borasalama on October 20th, 2009
Here you go then, borasalama, - http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/13432/part_4/church-of-martyrs.thtml
.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/48957
.
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Persecution_of_non-Muslims_in_Muslim_countries - the links to articles about persecution, murder and abuse of Christians in muslim countries (under each country listed) is very informative and well worth going through. It is horrendous.
by Bohemian is back on October 24th, 2009
Although neither muslims living in the US nor Christians living in the muslim world can appreciate the hardships that each other has to face in every day life, there is no doubt that the legal systems in muslim countries is underdeveloped or totally non-existant in the field of protecting human rights of Christian and non-muslim minorities in general. This is, with few exceptions, not the case in the US, and Europe.
by Bohemian is back on October 24th, 2009
The very first few lines of your third link shocked me with shame until I checked and found that I wasn't reading from wikipedia but something calling itself wikiIslam.
.
In the individual examples in your second link, which must be the worst cases, I saw no hate crime, no stabbing of a pregnant woman minding her own business, no torching of churches.
.
As for the spectator, although we're told it "takes a right wing, conservative editorial line" I cannot say, without researching, that it is Islamophobic, but, according to wikipedia it "is usually supportive of Israel" a nation which has driven out Palestinian Christians and Muslims from Palestine and turned the land into Israel a state for Jews from all over the world. Anyway, the report says "persecution of Christians is greatest in Muslim countries" yet the only "Muslim" country it mentions is Pakistan, which the report calls "the Islamic Republic of Pakistan" a country supported by successive US Presidents.
.
May I finally suggest you look @ http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/5531290 read the short answer and all the comments. The contribution is from your fellow Christian who has himself lived amongst Muslims. What could be more firsthand than that.
by borasalama on October 24th, 2009
borasalama, please. All these people are not making things up out of their heads. There are plenty of assaults against Christians in the Islamic world which no one can deny. I think that one of the most detrimental things to Islam is the fact that muslims deny what is going on. Once it is admitted, it give scope for improvement. And when logical thinking muslims take up their cause in a more objective way, Islam will gain more credibility all round. You do a disfavour to muslim countries by denying that there is no room for improvement and assuming/maintaining that all is well in paradise.
by Bohemian is back on October 25th, 2009
Okay,borasalama, here is Al Jazeera for you. Perhaps you will believe this: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/10/20081014153936955903.html#
.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/03/2008525184214946362.html
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
by Bohemian is back on October 25th, 2009
TY for the links, interesting reading.
.
Iraq of course has been in turmoil since the invasion with people mindleslys killing one another. But even so, when it came to the killing of Christians “Muslim scholars have spoken out against” it.
.
This was an incident in one city of one country and yet a Muslim INTERNATIONAL body picked it up and there was “CONDEMNATION from the Organistation of the Islamic Conference” The report says “the violence in Mosul was "UNPRECEDENTED IN THE HISTORY OF IRAQ" and CALLED UPON THE IRAQI AUTHORITIES TO "PROSECUTE the culprits who are behind these acts". A CABINET-LEVEL DELEGATION would soon be sent to Mosul.”
.
All because over “12 [TWELVE] members of the [Christian] community were killed in recent weeks” It would have been good to read of similar response from the Christian side when THOUSANDS of Muslims were rounded up and shot in Bosnia. When the pregnant woman was repeatedly stabbed out of hate and slumped down dead in front of her young son, it would have been good for the western media to put the news in their headlines or the German government had not said its top concern was the security of its courtrooms.
.
by borasalama on October 25th, 2009
The situation in Turkey is different. Here, what I would call the CRIMINAL ACTS are rooted in mistrust that “dates back to the days of the 'crusades' and the First World War when the Christian minority in Turkey sided against the then [Turkish] Ottoman empire. As a result anyone being seen to [be] PUSHING CHRISTIANITY is” suspect as “simply fronts for intelligence agencies such as the CIA and [the Israeli] Mossad and that they are working to undermine Turkey”
.
“MALICIOUS Jewish HATRED of Christianity REFERRED TO BY THE CHURCH FATHERS AND COUNTLESS OTHERS has NO EXISTENCE IN HISTORICAL FACT. The generalizations of patristic writers in support of the accusation have been wrongly interpreted from the fourth century to the present day. That individual Jews hated and reviled the Christians there can be no doubt, but there is no evidence that the Jews as a class hated and persecuted the Christians as a class during the early years of the fourth century.” This led to the justification and build-up of hatred and persecution of Jews for centuries in Christian Europe culminating in Hitler hatching up his final solution for them in which reportedly 6 million were killed
.
by borasalama on October 25th, 2009
History may be repeating itself with the finger of accusation pointing at Muslims and justification of hatred being notched up. This time the church fathers are quiet and Islamophobic rhetoric is coming from websites, tele-evangelists, politicians and other respectable organisations. Just like then the message was the Jews are troublemakers we can do without and they hate and persecute Christians so let’s hate and persecute them back. It’s the same message with Muslim replacing Jew.
.
“There is also a LONG HISTORY of individual Christian sects suffering persecution at the hands of other Christians” says wikipedia, and one example of this is Palestinian Christians driven and kept out of Palestine for overt 60 to create Israel for world Jews to settle in. It is all done with full political and military support from the west financed by their taxpayers. A gross injustice by anyone’s reckoning.
.
I fully support the Turkish official who said “that ANY FORM of violence against Christians was ABSOLUTELY WRONG” I respect the Christ Jesus and distance myself from anyone who hates or harasses the followers of Christ’s teachings as they go about their daily lives peacefully. I invite you to repeat that for Muslims.
by borasalama on October 25th, 2009
by Jade on August 9th, 2008
I think that the actions of some of it's followers has a lot to do with it.
I like how you said 'some' and not 'all', which is just the opposite of what many people would say. I think that is the problem there, with why people hate it. They generalize and assume that all Islamic people are the same.
by Rebel Monster on August 9th, 2008
jade and destruct, even the actions of the terrorists are always a reaction to an action again Islam - always. Thanks for your comments.
by Theby on August 9th, 2008
Spoken like a true revert Theby. Your attitude I believe is shared by many peace loving moderate Muslims....you excuse instead of accuse your Muslim brother or sister for the violence and blame it on the victims.
by Mystical on August 11th, 2008
Theby: There is no excuse for terrorism....by ANYONE. It seems to be one of the main goals for "hardcore" Muslims to kill anyone who does not follow their religious choice. Not only that, they seem to take great pleasure in it as well..sawing the heads off the "infidels" and proudly displaying them for all to see. Strapping bombs to themselves and not only killing their perceived enemies, but their own people as well. I am not saying that all Muslims follow these guidlines, but it is enough to cause people to hate (or at least have no use for) Islam. Same as the Holy Wars of the Christians centuries ago cause people to hate (or at least have no use for) Christianity today.
by Jade on August 12th, 2008
Jade, I am a hardcore Muslim. You seem to use our religion to explain the car bombs etc. Muslims don't have the sophistocated weaponry like the yanks. I theorize that the car bombs blow up as many yanks as possible. Just like the yanks kill as many Muslims as possible. What's the difference? And the yanks have been using a napalm-type substance to anihilate villagers. It melts the skin off the bodies right down to the bone and does not even scorch clothes. This is war! If the Muslims were Hindi, they would still be protecting themselves and killing the enemy.
by Theby on August 12th, 2008
By the way, look up "American beheading Muslims" on google.
by Theby on September 15th, 2008
As I said..there is no excuse for terrorism by anyone....which includes, but is not limited to Americans. The question concerned Islam. I have seen the placards which read "Death to the infidels" and "convert or die". I am just as against anyone trying to force Islam upon me as those who are against people trying to force Christianity upon them. No one has the right to tell another what beliefs he should have. Live and let live.
by Jade on September 15th, 2008
Jade, You were the one that mentioned Christianity today. Your media is propagandaized. "Death to the infidels" is the marines who invaded Iraq on false pretenses. Convert or die, same thing. If someone napalmed my village I would be doing more than just holding up placards!!
by Theby on September 15th, 2008
The problem is the reaction of followers sometimes made in the name of faith may not be as the faith would decree. The USA, a "Christian" country has done many reprehensible things in the name of justice and libery. This does not make these actions just or libretarian and has nothing to do with what religion the majority of Americans tend to follow. There are those however who choose to wave these flag over virtually all that is done by America.
by raynorshine on January 9th, 2009
The problem is the reaction of followers sometimes made in the name of faith may not be as the faith would decree. The USA, a "Christian" country has done many reprehensible things in the name of justice and libery. This does not make these actions just or libretarian and has nothing to do with what religion the majority of Americans tend to follow. There are those however who choose to wave these flag over virtually all that is done by America.
by raynorshine on January 9th, 2009
Q Theby quote 'Just like the yanks kill as many Muslims as possible'. Where do you get such warped thinking from? If that were the case the US would be had up for war crimes. You know very well that war is carried out with every intention of minimizing cazualties in the civilian population. Unfortunately, bombs do go astray and targets can be misinterpreted, but the policy of any western army is minimal damage to civilians. On top of that, if 'the intention of the yanks was to kill as many Muslims as possible', as you say, then why don't they blanket bomb all muslims countries and be done with it and why do they allow them into the US to work and live?
by Bohemian is back on October 8th, 2009
Ex, Come on, get real! What happened when the UN got onto Israel about their atrocities in Palestine. A big fat NOTHING! Funny that, don't you think? I wonder if it has anything to do with Nth America backing them all the way? Could that happen do you think? If Nth American TRIED to blanket bomb every Muslim country the Muslims would rise up and the world as it is now would be changed forever. The US are scared of Muslims. So are most of the anti-Muslim religists on AB. Just give us an excuse and let us loose!!!
by Theby on October 8th, 2009
Lol. Have you been drinking Theby? Or are you on some type of meds? You are not making any sense at all today.
by Bohemian is back on October 8th, 2009
Excaliber, pls add your prayers to mine, I have been praying for Theby and Co that they may come to see His Light and LOVE for ALL, whether they be Muslims, Christians, Moonies, Atheists etc. Our God is an AWESOME God and He is God to all whether we believe in Him or not. Blessings galore
by Mystical on October 17th, 2009
Thank you Mystical. I certainly would be delighted to add my prayers to yours. And Blessings to you too.:)
by Bohemian is back on October 18th, 2009
NEWS BREAK: Allah is God. You already pray to Allah!!
by Theby on October 19th, 2009
Get a life Theby.
by Bohemian is back on October 22nd, 2009
Excalibur - Theby is one crazy girl.
by Dibley on October 22nd, 2009
She sure is Dibley.:)
by Bohemian is back on October 22nd, 2009
I think she needs to get laid.
by Dibley on October 22nd, 2009
She is already, so she says, by a young Jordanian immigrant who is half her age and needs Australian nationality!
by Bohemian is back on October 22nd, 2009
That explains her attitude. We are all entitled to our own opinion, but theby hates it if it isn't the same as hers.
by Dibley on October 22nd, 2009
She is trying to promote fundamentalist islam. I hope the guy is genuine and not just after nationality. Younger guys can get restless with older women.
by Bohemian is back on October 22nd, 2009
Excalib & Dibley .... Theby as far as I knew because she stated this elsewhere is Kiwi (New Zealander) like myself (I did not realise she was Australian national as well),she converted to Islam because of her husband.
I dont think Theby is crazy ...she is misled and refuses to believe we are well meaning when we insult Islam. Dibley pls remember Theby and Co in your prayers, she has a very distorted view of who Allah is. Allah simply means God in Arabic but she seems to think if it God's personal Name. Blessings galore to you and yours. Peace.
by Mystical on November 1st, 2009
I don't pray, but thanks for your comment, very very well put.
by Dibley on November 2nd, 2009
Mys, Look at my last comment. I said "Allah is God!" I don't feel threatened by christianity and ergo, don't insult it. You think you are a good christian. What a joke! Insulting anothers' religious belief is extremely peurile. I am guessing you are quite young.
And Exc, your comments are not worth even responding to.
Oh.........Allah Akbar!!
by Theby on November 2nd, 2009
Theby, with all this hatred, resentment and anger you are directing at these people you are reinforcing the stereotype that Muslims are full of hate and just love killing people for the sake of it.
by Holmeboy on November 3rd, 2009
& reading back on your comments, you say the US and the West are afraid of Islam. I agree with you, but we are afraid of it in the same way we where afraid of the Nazis or Communism. Both these ideologies (like Islam) wanted to take all the good out of life - Music, fun, personal freedom, freedom of expression, to the point of where life becomes meaningless.
Remember, we where not afraid to die defending ourselves against Nazism and Communism nor are we afraid to die against Islam, it is better to die as man then live like a dog ( and i don't mean that to be an insult - it is just our way of thinking)
by Holmeboy on November 3rd, 2009
Well said Holemboy....Theby should live in a Islamic country then lets see how she feels...Like Afganistan, that would suit her.
by Catherine on November 3rd, 2009
Thanks Cat, - it's a good point, i would be interested to see whether Theby felt the same way if she went to live in one of her Islamic role model societies like Somalia, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia etc. Whether Theby would still be so hostile to the West, she is lucky that she lives in New Zealand, but doesn't realise and wants to destroy that society that allows her to have her own mind and life.
by Holmeboy on November 4th, 2009
She would throw her ass out of there....LOLs...especially if she had to wear a burka over her face and couldn't leave the house...God Bless our Christian Countries, she has liberties in them....Lets see how long she lasts with her alibaba sharia laws...LOLs..
by Catherine on November 4th, 2009
LOL. She could kiss goodbye to going on the computer too! they wouldn't allow that either LOL. These people that want to destroy our way of life don't know they are born, they don't know what they are giving away. Sad thing, is all our freedom has been paid for in blood by previous generations, the likes of Theby give that up at the drop of a hat! Brave men who died for her will turn in their graves if they knew.
by Holmeboy on November 4th, 2009
Listen youtube Muslims for Jesus listen to stories how Christ went to save them....its beautiful..and this is a devout muslim...He compared the bible to the koran, guess which won...The Bible...
by Catherine on November 4th, 2009
Do you know how many beatings theby would get...switches on her ass...
by Catherine on November 4th, 2009
Just had a look, very interesting and enlightening. It's nice to see these people have good self esteem and look happy and full of the joys of life, which is totally the opposite of when you see the down trodden sole destroyed and crushed islamic convert.
by Holmeboy on November 4th, 2009
So true....There was joy in his eyes...was nice to see...
by Catherine on November 4th, 2009
I think the fact that my answer is still being downrated, even though I said nothing against Islam or ALL Muslims, speaks volumes.
by Jade on December 2nd, 2009
Jade I gave you 6+....
by Catherine on December 2nd, 2009
You people are prime examples of the people I ask about in my question.
by Theby on December 5th, 2009
And you, Theby, are a prime example of the type of muslim, if one can really call you 'a muslim', that makes many non-muslims hate Islam. Personally, I believe you represent anything but 'true' Islam. You have basically lost yourself in a culture and religion that you do not fully understand, and by promoting yourself as knowledgeable about Islam you do the religion a great injustice. You are, as far as Islam and its culture are concerned, a simpleton. And may God give you the grace and understanding to see the error in your ways.
by Bohemian is back on December 6th, 2009
Amen to that.....
by Catherine on December 6th, 2009
She'll come back with some f*cked up comment, trying to be clever when we can all see that she is far from it.
by Dibley on December 6th, 2009
She always does, she is not all there..
by Catherine on December 6th, 2009
I've noticed.
by Dibley on December 6th, 2009
May Allah grant you true wisdom.
by Theby on December 6th, 2009
Dibley and Catherine, you are very astute.:)
by Bohemian is back on December 7th, 2009
Mind you, Allah deafens the ears of those who would not understand.
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
What is to understand?
by Dibley on December 7th, 2009
Drib, You don't understand anything so why do you ask?
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
So you can't explain! Fair enough. Why can't you leave people alone. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If we don't want to live in your little world then so what. Get a life and take that life and keep it in your own little bubble.
by Dibley on December 7th, 2009
Drib, Me leave YOU alone! This is my question - remember?? Give me strength. You really are a sad and lost soul.
You also bore me. UNSUB
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
Hope you stay unsubscribed, but doubt you will.
by Dibley on December 7th, 2009
Wow...just....wow. After reading this entire comment thread, I am now, more than ever, inclined to stand by my answer. I did notice that I made one mistake in calling terrorists "hardcore" when I should have termed them radicals. I am reminded of the horrible day Timothy McVey bombed the Murray building in "protest" of the actions of officials. He was not deemed a "HERO" for those actions, but rather, a monster...which he was and was dealt with as such. Any time such actions are taken in protest of ANYTHING, it does nothing to to correct the situation, but, rather, only serves to portray the protesters in a very unfavorable light and detract from the actual purpose of the protest and places focus on the inhumanity of the perpetrators. And that goes for ANYONE of ANY faith.
by Jade on December 7th, 2009
Islam is a cult, once your in you can never leave otherwise they kill you....Thats all it is...Muhmad is a peodofile, rapist,incestuous, man...Why would God give someone like that any knowledge....come on people...he is exposed everyone knows about his sexual appetite with little girls and his daughter in law.....Maybe his own daughters to.....Islam is a cult, and many muslims are now realizing it.
by Catherine on December 7th, 2009
by Sweet T on July 28th, 2008
They dont take the time, to research the faith and see what it is about, it is from ignorance and fear of the unknown. :-)
Thank you Sweet T, you really are very sweet. :}
by Theby on July 29th, 2008
Thank you very much, I try to be, I was hoping you werent upset with me from the last question we had discussed this.
by Sweet T on July 29th, 2008
No way! It would be pretty strange if we didn't have differing opinions every now and then. All the more power to you!! ;-D
by Theby on July 29th, 2008
I'm not upset. It would be strange if we didn't have differing opinions every now and then. All the more power to you! ;-D
by Theby on July 29th, 2008
I am glad to hear that. :-) I am sure we arent gong to agree on everything, although that would be nice.
by Sweet T on July 29th, 2008
Yes, I know it would be. lol
by Theby on July 29th, 2008
Vaginal fistula is today of epidemic proportions in Moslem countries and may be laid at the door of Islam's approval of child marriage. I would say that Moslem women in this forum have not taken the time to research how Islam contributes to the misery of women. Childhood marriage and rampant female illiteracy go hand in hand. The Taliban are champions at destroying girls' schools in Afghanistan. Few girls' schools exist in Pakistan. Islamic countries have little concern for women's issues or the advancement of women in general. In many Moslems countries no statistics are kept regarding crimes against women. Your heads are in the sand. Your blinkers are on. You are not doing any research.
by Declic on September 7th, 2009
Declic, You did not answer the question.
by Theby on September 23rd, 2009
Obstetrical fistula and pedophilia. Your question. How can a woman join a group that idolizes a pedophile who approved of rape of helpless captives. Have you no compassion for women?
by Declic on November 9th, 2009
Declic, Your hatred is palpable.
Sweet T, This is the type of person I refer to in my question. :)
by Theby on November 28th, 2009
Theby, this individual Declic is nothing but a hate-monger. Whenever he is challenged to quote Surah or proper Hadith reference, he obfuscates and runs away. He loves to claim that this or that is in Quran or Hadith, but never provides hard evidence to back up his assertions. Nothing but blasts of hatred.
by Stranger in a Strange Land on November 28th, 2009
I completely agree, Warrior. At first I used to correct his gross insults and lies, now I just ignore them. Thankyou for taking the time to write this comment. Asaalamu Aleykom
by Theby on November 29th, 2009
As aleykum salaam. I am not of your faith but respect the beliefs of all people of good will.
by Stranger in a Strange Land on November 30th, 2009
Thank you so much, WK. You are open-minded. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
by Theby on November 30th, 2009
You're quite welcome ma'am.
by Stranger in a Strange Land on November 30th, 2009
by singwell-is off researching a lot on September 15th, 2008
People who are completely ignorant often hate many things, not just Islam.
But I only asked about Islam, not other subjects.
by Theby on September 15th, 2008
Perhaps you should look outwards sometimes. Muslims are not the only ones with problems in this world.
Unsub.
by singwell-is off researching a lot on September 16th, 2008
I only asked about Muslims. I am not interested in other peoples ignorance of other subjects.
by Theby on September 16th, 2008
good job singwell...i was gonna answer; same reason some hate Christianity...ignorance..but ignorance is the cause of lots of hate....
i don't hate Islam..and I am not ignorant of their teachings either ...read the Koran...had a Moslem friend.....but I knew what my GOD teaches enough to know we don't worship the same God...and God's Book was here long before theirs ...but the main thing for me was MY GOD sent a Savior...Jesus....
i dont try to convert any religion but i do notice Moslems do all they can to convert....
by thatsJustme on January 28th, 2009
But our book was directly from God. Not written by men.
by Theby on January 29th, 2009
our book was directly from the ALMIGHTY.HE told Moses to write it.except the 10 Commandments , HE wrote HIMSELF....are u saying GOD WROTE, HIMSELF, ur book??? this should be interesting..
by thatsJustme on January 29th, 2009
Allah recited the book to Gabriel the Angel, who in turn, recited it to Muhammad.
by Theby on January 29th, 2009
I thought the old testament was part of the Quoran. And that the Old testament is the same document in Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Is this not the case?
by daisychain on February 23rd, 2009
Daisychain, Thanks for your comment. I don't know about the Jews but Christians and Muslims do believe the Old Testament. It is not part of the Qur'an though. I have answered some questions regarding Christianity and quoted texts from the Old Testament, but all the Christians' say is "But's that's from the OLD Testament!" It's weird. If I quote the New Testament they don't seem to mind.
Barb, You claim to have read the Qur'an but you don't even spell Muslim correctly.
by Theby on February 23rd, 2009
Oh, okay.
by daisychain on February 23rd, 2009
Christains and Jews devoutely use and have the Old Testament...Muslims only "refer " to it..big difference...Muslims Holy Spirit is Gabriel, an angel in OT..while Jews and Christains Holy Spirit is God HIMSELF....
their beliefs are in direct contradiction of Judaism and Christainity , therefore conclusion being , simply that we do not have the same God...
I reasoned and studied with my friend and his book and both came to same conclusion, Mine sent HIMSELF as a Savior and theirs had none.....
by thatsJustme on February 23rd, 2009
and by the way, I still hate no religion , it is simply not my belief ..and i hate no peoples of any origin...
by thatsJustme on February 23rd, 2009
I thought it was the same God in the 3 religions. Just the technicalities and practical applications of the religion in day to day life that were different.
by daisychain on February 23rd, 2009
Islam says this..but how can it be when the God of one book says one thing and the other book totally contradicts it...
Christains and Jews share the same OT...Jews do not use New Testament because the NEW is Christ(the Anointed) which Jews do not believe have came yet , still waiting to redeem only them....
Quran uses and mentions all characters of O & N Testaments but not the Testaments....by the way "mohammed" is not of any mention in Testaments...
OT , especially Moses 1st 5 Books(the Torah) was here long before Mohammed's Quran....
totally HUGE differences in one Book to the other....
by thatsJustme on February 23rd, 2009
Daisychain, You must be feeling confused after reading barb's comments. I will simplify it for you. Muhammed is not mentioned in the Bible because he was not born until 1400 years after Christ was born. He is the last prophet God sent to us. All the prophets in the Bible are mentioned in the Qur'an. Allah and God are one and the same. We do not believe Jesus is God's son. We do, however, revere Jesus as a wonderful prophet and healer. There is only one Holy Qur'an. Not one word has been changed since it was written. There are 130 different versions of the Bible. The Bible was written by man alone. Con'd
by Theby on February 24th, 2009
The Holy Qur'an was recited by God/Allah to Gabriel the angel. Gabriel in turn recited it to Muhammad who in turn recited it to his followers. His followers wrote out the words from God and there you have the Holy Qur'an. In our Holy Qur'an it says that Jesus spoke of Muhammad. All of the books (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) were originally recited by Gabriel. But the Bible[s] was changed by the hand of man. This is why there are 130 of them. I cannot comment on the Jewish book as I don't know about it. We believe (as do the Christians and Jews) that Jesus is Con'd
by Theby on February 24th, 2009
returning to earth. We believe he is coming to lead the Muslims. If you wish to know anything else, Daisychain, please just ask and I will be happy to provide it. Asalaamu Aleikom to you. :D
by Theby on February 24th, 2009
last response here....Mohammed was said to be illiterate...man wrote the Bbile with Holy Spirit guidance(God,the Holy Spirit, not Gabriel) and there u go again , coming to lead Muslims!!! Jews think coming just for them!! my God opened up for ALL man to have a chance at HOPE...HE is not partial, nor racist....but wishes NO MAN to perish...ones with the attitude of God is only theirs , among them , are in danger of "Presumptious Sin" and will be sorely disappointed on Judgement(HOLIER than thou attitude)...
Daisy, I will pray u find the WAY..
by thatsJustme on February 24th, 2009
Just another short comment Daisychain to stop your confusion again. In the bibles it says for christians not to befriend Muslims. In the Holy Qur'an Allah tells us that He will protect jews and christians up until the day they die. If they haven't converted to Islam by that time, they will go straight to hell. Unlike christians, Muslims have to work in this life to get to heaven. A lot of christians believe they can repent on their death beds and all is well. Does that sound right to you, Daisy? Doesn't to me either. The Holy Qur'an is a book unlike the bible. Con'd
by Theby on February 25th, 2009
It tells us everything on how to deal with finances to how to get along with family and friends, how to do banking, how to bury someone, etc. It's amazing. It actually teaches. It's not just a book of people saying this and that (in one bible) and only this (in another bible). THE HOLY QUR'AN IS THE ONLY WORD OF GOD. Also, Daisy, Islam is now the fastest growing religion in the world with 1.6 billion adherents. Catholicism is the largest but is rapidly losing ground and people abandon it. Also, the Holy Qur'an has a lot of scientific facts in it that have or are only just being discovered now. Proof this diving book is from GOD ALONE. Salaam to you.
by Theby on February 25th, 2009
Thanks to you both Theby and barb. I see that there are a lot of differences but you have both given me a neat intro into those differences. I can also see that you are both very faithful to God.
I am just interested to see where people are coming from and how their religion/faith shapes their lives and how they view the world and their place within the world.
I have settled in my beliefs and faith and my position but thanks for sharing yours with me.
Peace to you both.
by daisychain on February 25th, 2009
Daisy, I am so glad I could help you. Thanks for your lovely comment. Good luck with your belief. Asalaam Aleikom.
by Theby on February 25th, 2009
by kelana on August 3rd, 2008
It is simply because the truth about Islam has not reached these people and that the root cause for the violence has not been addressed.Apparently the act of terror by some of these irresponsible Muslims mostly insane had tarnished the image of Islam. It is a job for all Muslims to work together to rectify on this prejudice about Islam.Its a messy job indeed,but had to be done. The task { Dakwah } rests on the shoulders of all good Muslims.
The violence does not have to be addressed if it is needed. Muslims react to violence as anyone would. You sit back and look at the propaganda on TV and think us Muslims are barbaric. How many times do you see the marines killing Muslim families? Muslims being tortured? The one thing I do remember is that lovely little marine girl with the dog leash around the prisoner's neck. Every action causes a reaction. Muslims do not kill just for the sake of killing.
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
Look at the Jews of Palestine. They took over 92% of Palestinian land, displaces millions of Muslims, kiss the backside of America and America supplies them with arms. THe Muslims throw stones for God's sake. If a cat is cornered it will attack!
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
There are many root causes to the violence which need to be addressed.The rights of the Palestinians is one of them which needs to be addressed and solved by the world.This was what I meant.
by kelana on August 3rd, 2008
I know what you meant and I agree with you.:-}
by Theby on August 9th, 2008
Some of the violence is justifiable but many times it's not, As Muslims we need to learn not to jump to defense as this doesn't help our cause. The Qur'an and Hadith provide us with rules of engagement if the violence is not in adherence with these ROE then we should be willing to openly condem such things. It is as much our responsibility to condem them as it is to educate those around us.
by AMIRA-NICHOLLE on November 28th, 2008
Thanks AMIRA. Salam
by kelana on November 29th, 2008
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
I had a much more open mind until I learned something about Islam. Now I can't say I hate it any more than and other mass deception but I hate the perpetuation of it.
-
Religion is evil. The Abarhamic ones more so. And Islam has some aspects that are staggering. And I only found that out after learning about it.
i like your answer. i think spirituality and organized religion are 2 completely different things. the term religion basically means practice of traditions.
what is it you learned about islam that turned you off, just curious.
by kanara on July 28th, 2008
1 Example:
To be able to understand the Koran, you need to read it in it's original Arabic. This has 2 problems:
-
1. Arabic is a language that is much more interpretive than European languages. Native born scholars can debate the meaning of a word all their lives. Yet this is supposed to be the final and decisive word of god? It's set up to start wars for millennia to come. Just look at the Shia and Sunnis going at it today over just such a linguistic nuance.
-
2. Obviously you need to learn a language and master it just to have an opinion - yet they are converting left and right. What's this but setting up a master race of the native speaking - those obviously chosen by god to be able to understand, thus interpret and thus preach the word of god?
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
Another:
Mohamed got all the nuts and bolts of Islam from the Angel Gabriel. And as far as I understand it, he continued to get divine revelation concerning matters like settling disputes over land and cattle, negotiating with neighboring clans with different religions, and other high and holy thing. The problem is that some of those things directly contradict others - and apparently his own wives made fun of him for having visions that were mighty convenient in the short term. Anyway - to get around this it was decided that he got SOME of his revelations from Satan and so he got to rescind them once they were no longer convenient. Nifty, no?
-
The big problem for us today is that it leaves us with some Muslims who believe that Jihad is an internal, spiritual battle with evil. Pretty cool. But there are others who interpret it as meaning beheading anyone who doesn't stick his ass in the air for Allah - and PRONTO and with FEELING. No so cool. So we have Al Queda who feel they have divine right to blow up even devout Muslims who don't do their devotions quite right. Forget Christians or... Secularists.
-
Now we hear a lot ABOUT the great majority of Islam being peace loving. But we hear an awful lot more FROM the other bunch. So much more that one begins to wonder if a is so silent no one knows it's there... is there really such a majority?
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
And lastly - I really don't have it out for Islam in particular. Just that this question concerned it. Moses and his pals killed tons of those they didn't like. Christians killed lots in the name of their peace and love loving God. No, I'm not a fan of any religion.
-
Cheers
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
Why do people who are completely ignorant of Islam hate it so much? It is BECAUSE they are completely ignorant of Islam that they hate it.
.
An example of ignorance is in the very first line of the comment from 23Skidoo (no offence meant I am only quoting you) "to understand the Koran, you need to read it in it's original Arabic". 85% or more of the about 1.4 billion Muslims in the world are not Arabs. You DON'T need to know Arabic to understand the HQ, many translations are available. Of course if you want to appreciate the beauty and subtlety of the language then you have to learn the language to read the original revealed text. This original text is in every Muslim household or readily availabl. No other major faith has its original text so freely available and so widely read.
.
Example of hate is in the mocking language "stick his ass in the air for Allah"
.
23Skidoo doesn't like Islam but has still come to the Islam section to show his mockery and ignorance. The message from him is like 'you all 1.4 billion of you are so stupid to follow this which I see as rubbish.' The answer is do you know anything better.
by borasalama on August 1st, 2008
Bor, As I said, I find all religions equally ridiculous. Catholics believe they are vampires and cannibals since transubstantiation is a miracle that literally makes blood from wine and human flesh from a cracker. As for the posture of devotion in Islam, I didn't choose it, I merely observe and describe.
-
Now to the language. There are a great many scholars who state quite plainly that the only way to know the word of god is to meditate on it in the original tongue. You may disagree but then please take it up with them. And your 1.4 bil who don't speak Arabic? They will be a permanent second class to those who have been so blessed.
-
And please look up the word ignorant. I may have come to conclusions and hold opinions you don't like but I have done so because of quite a lot of study on religion.
by 23Skidoo on August 2nd, 2008
I also wonder how you came by the information regarding my motivation for replying to this question. Did god tell you? Or do you make claims about things you know nothing, in ignorance one might even say, regularly?
by 23Skidoo on August 2nd, 2008
Depending on one's point of view, the prostration can be seen as the most humbling posture (assumed by Jesus too) or as the most ridiculous one, a glass can be seen as half full or equally correctly as half empty, some might associate beautiful flowers with a rose plant others equally correctly a bush with sharp thorns. They are all correct and they give us an insight into the mentality, the standpoint, of the seer.
.
I don't know the authority of your message that those who don't speak Arabic "will be a permanent second class to those who" do? But HQ 49:13 says "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know (not despise) one another. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" How can language stop you from becoming the most righteous?
.
No, God "communicates" to me no more than he does to you. I have no more a special place with Him than you, for all I know He could be closer to you than to me. Like all of us I judge according to the information that reaches me. The only information reaching me about you is through what you yourself are saying, I have not asked anybody else about you. The more you say the more of a picture I get. And of course it could be wrong, I agree. I meant no offence though.
by borasalama on August 2nd, 2008
I'm not offended. I simply find it amusing that you feel a right to discuss my motivation for writing in this section.
-
The most humbling and most ridiculous are the same. To humble oneself before anyone in such manner is pitiable. To do so to a fiction is infinitely more so.
-
I get my info re. the superiority of the Arab language from many discussions with clerics and online sources. Like any big church there are factions and division. Some will be more liberal and some less so. But it is the reason there are so many schools throughout the Muslim world that teach Arabic - and Koran - and nothing else. This isn't secret stuff. It's info from Muslims available all over the place. One must seek to find :-)
by 23Skidoo on August 2nd, 2008
Nothing amusing. I wouldn't like to insult your intelligence by saying you have no idea whatsoever of my motivation and that it could be to undermine Islam.
.
"pitiable and fiction" are your points of view and you're entitled to keep them. Those of us who see the rose in the plant will cherish it, you can hack it down and remove from your garden if you see it only as a thorny bush. I just don't see why it keeps on bothering you what others grow in their gardens.
.
So is that bothering you as well that "there are so many schools throughout the Muslim world that teach Arabic - and Koran - and nothing else"?
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
bor -
1. I never questioned or tried to guess at your motivations. It was you who wrote of me, "23Skidoo doesn't like Islam but has still come to the Islam section to show his mockery and ignorance."
2. I am not trying to undermine Islam - I am perfectly aware that that is not possible. 1 voice against 1.4 bil of them? Now THAT would be a miracle that just might make me a believer. :-)
3. I like roses. Actually, I happen top grow them. I also like fiction and can find deep meaning in it, and in art and in drama and in quiet contemplation of the universe and my place therein. None of that, however, makes me lose track of the truth of the rose's existence (along with it's thorns and lots of bullshit to make it so beautiful)of the fictitious place for the characters in the books and drama. I don't feel the need to prostrate myself in the Christian manner or Muslim manner or any other manner.
by 23Skidoo on August 3rd, 2008
4. I replied to a question. A question that implied that one can only have objections to Islam out of ignorance. This is simply not true of any religion. The more one learns about them the more one sees how ridiculous they all are. Education and an open mind lead one to the reasonable conclusion that all religions are man-made.
-
Today's Islam, however, adds to the basic objections those of objecting to threatening violence against writers and artists who have offended the petty sensibilities of "holy men"; using actual violence against innocent people or to silence those who have unpleasant things to say about Islam.
by 23Skidoo on August 3rd, 2008
23, Where did you "learn" about Islam? From the "unbiased" media perhaps". I did not imply that one can ONLY have objections to Islam out of ignorance. There are people who are not ignorant of Islam but I did not include them in my question.
by Theby on November 2nd, 2008
by ComplexKid441 on July 28th, 2008
I try to never generalize religions as inherently good or bad. The fact is, most religious texts are thousands of years old, translated numerous times, and have been interpreted and twisted by people throughout history to justify actions and to gain control over people.
Except Islam. It's only something over 1000 years old and written in the language it's studied in now - albeit an older version.
However, It's as lousy as the rest.
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
Don't agree.
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
What do you mean "an older version?" The Holy Qu'ran has only one version and it has NEVER changed, unlike the bible. And 23, I assume you have read the Qu'ran to qualify your final line?
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
Didn't think so! :-D
by Theby on September 15th, 2008
actually it would have to have been changed becuase translations from one language to the next will not be exact.
by Gunnar on November 17th, 2008
Well, not every one of the 1.6 million Islamics speak Arabic. Of course translations cannot be exact. But the Arabic original has not had ONE word changed.
by Theby on November 18th, 2008
The - Does Islam state that there is a god? If yes, then it's as lousy as the rest. If not I retract my statement with the humblest of apologies to you and all Muslims.
by 23Skidoo on November 18th, 2008
23, God is Allah, Allah is God. They are the same. So perhaps you should apologise to the christians and jews as well.
by Theby on November 23rd, 2008
23, Of course Islam has Allah, same God that Christians pray to. You obviously are athiest or agnostic. God is our protector. Your insults do me no harm. Only you, on the day of judgement.
by Theby on November 23rd, 2008
Perhaps you should refresh your memory before writing. Let me help.
Above I wrote (about Islam):
However, It's as lousy as the rest.
.
To which you replied:
And 23, I assume you have read the Qu'ran to qualify your final line?
.
And I said back to you:
The - Does Islam state that there is a god? If yes, then it's as lousy as the rest. If not I retract my statement with the humblest of apologies to you and all Muslims.
.
So, you see I owe no one, including you or other Muslims and apology. My statement is completely accurate, as I knew it would be from my limited reading from the Koran, well as my extensive discussions with you and other Muslims, and ordinary common sense.
by 23Skidoo on November 23rd, 2008
"However it's as lousy as the rest". I take it "the rest" means christians and jews. I am saying you owe the christians and jews an apology. I was not talking about Muslims.
by Theby on November 23rd, 2008
Nope - all religions owe the world an apology for all the pain and suffering their fantasies have caused.
by 23Skidoo on November 23rd, 2008
Another athiest on the Islam site. Why don't you go to a site where you are not disruptive. You know nothing of Islam. "Does Islam state there is a God?" Does this sound like it is coming from someone who cares about this site. Go to another site that DOES interest you. Maybe......you could find a book to chat about that has pictures.
by Theby on November 24th, 2008
AB is a public site. I can visit any part of it I chose - just like you. And, I can respond to any question I chose, just like you. And, you have every right to ignore any comment or person here you choose which, in the case of Me, Myself, and I - you have obviously chosen not to do.
.
You don't seem terribly strong in your faith if all you want to hear are those who agree with you.
by 23Skidoo on November 24th, 2008
I think it makes me VERY strong, standing up to all you a**eholes.
by Theby on November 24th, 2008
Cool. I'm a whole group of assholes now?
And you're standing up to me? :-) I haven't seen a decent argument from you yet. A bunch of "why don't you just leave" but not a single thing to get me thinking.
.
by 23Skidoo on November 24th, 2008
No, just one. Are you capable of thinking?
by Theby on November 24th, 2008
You bet! Actually, I enjoy it a lot. That's why I chose not to give up my mind in favor of a fairytale.
But...
You state, "...standing up to all you a**eholes..."
Are you capable of grammar?
by 23Skidoo on November 24th, 2008
I use it every day, dear.
by Theby on November 24th, 2008
I suggest a bit more practice then, before you once again resort to rudeness and insinuation. I understand it must be frustrating continually arguing from such a weak position but such behavior really does make you look rather juvenile. Dear.
by 23Skidoo on November 24th, 2008
You keep coming back for more. Who is the juvenile, Honey?
by Theby on November 24th, 2008
Me?
Aren't you the one who keeps imploring me to leave?
by 23Skidoo on November 24th, 2008
23, "Does Islam state there is a God?" - your question. Seriously, are you mentally challenged or perhaps from Arkansas?
by Theby on November 29th, 2008
by Cipher on July 28th, 2008
Probably because they are reacting to the things they see in Islam that are most readily apparent. Frankly, from the outside, Islam frequently appears very negative. While those people may be ignorant of the teachings of that religion, the face of Islam they are shown is aggression, killing and death, anger, hatred, and a lack of tolerance. After train bombings in India, after tube bombings in London, after commuter rail bombings in Madrid, after the 11-9 attacks on USA, after the Surf Life Saver attacks on the beaches of Australia, after bombing women and children in shopping malls in Israel, after the brutal treatment of the Afghani people...people in the West don't have a very favorable view of Islam. This may or may not be justified, the media may or may not portray Islam in an even handed way...but these repeated acts would explain why so many people hate Islam.
The incidents you've mentioned may need someone who can put emotional reactions to one side and dig very deep to find out why. But the shopping mall incident, that doesn't require any deep study. Anyone in the shoes of the Christian or Muslim Palestinian would have done that or more. To know for sixty years millions of your people have been forced to live in squalid refugee camps while your Palestine has been turned into Israel, without anyone asking you, for the benefit of millions of Jews who were citizens of European countries. As for what is left of you is confined to a couple of Bantustans where the Zionist's tanks can roll in any time and flatten your home with maybe your granny and your baby sister still in them and your brother's car can be zapped by a missile from a helicopter gunship with other members of your family in it. No, the mall bombing WAS WRONG but by gum it doesn't need any deep study to understand why. For the Christian and Muslim Palestinians to endure sixty years of the biggest injustice ever passed through the UN by the superpowers takes some patience.
by borasalama on August 1st, 2008
Well said, borasalama. The jews took 92% of the Palestinians land. 92%!! Not only do the jews do what you say and kill indiscriminately, but they have the full backing of america. The americans are so frightened of Islam that they will do anything to get rid of Muslims.
by Theby on August 9th, 2008
they'll swear by democracy except when it shows any signs of voting in favour of Islam. TY Theby
by borasalama on August 9th, 2008
The attacks on Australia’s Surf Lifesavers can’t be justified under any scenario. No matter what justification Muslims make – attacking volunteer Surf Lifesavers on a public beach during a public holiday in which the lifesavers were providing a service to the public (all people of any faith) is a heinous example of barbarism. Surf lifesavers have patrolled the beaches of Australia for a hundred years and rescued many in distress and they do it for no pay and no r3ecognition. Yet somehow the Muslim community in Australia justifies a gang attack by a bunch of armed Muslim thugs. How is that related to Palestine? How is that related to the evil Jews? How is that related to the imperialist Americans? How is that related to anything? How can you play the victim card?
by Cong on August 9th, 2008
TY cletusj. I do not know the details of the incident you are referring to. However, it’s not an isolated case of the killing or attempted killing of innocent people in recent years. Looking at religion for an explanation, I think, is a distraction, a waste of time and only helps to fan the flames of religious bigotry.
.
First, and most important, the taking of innocent life IS CONDEMNED in Islam. All humans have within them good and evil nature. Islam tries to bring out and grow the good and noble nature and teaches and trains the control of the baser nature. Both of these are uphill tasks.
.
Feeding the baser nature is very easy and growth here can put strain and weaken one’s nobler rational instincts to breaking point.
.
To try to understand what could be leading THEIR civilians to such AWFUL ATROCITIES it might be easier and helpful to analyse what has led OUR soldier to BREAK OUT of their highly trained, strictly regimented and structured and well disciplined mould.
.
cont..
by borasalama on August 10th, 2008
(2 of 2)
.
One image media coverage of Iraq might leave Americans with is “we're trying to help you and you just turn around and try to kill us" With this running in his mind, an American soldier sent to Iraq may well be under tremendous strain when patrolling the streets there, despite his training. His colleague being killed by sniper fire might be the event that causes him to snap under the strain and, in blind rage, he bursts into the nearest home and pumps bullets into the unsuspecting unarmed family there, men women and children. That, roughly, was Haditha. Sometimes the effects are gradual making trained people subhuman enough to routinely dehumanise fellow beings as happened under Abu Ghraib conditions. http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/56761/
.
Images of an opposed occupation and the disruption it causes may build up resentment and the loss of innocent lives there may cause the baser nature of even doctors, professional lifesavers, to boil over causing them to commit atrocities. REMEMBER we’re NOT justifying ANY wrong, only trying to understand the how and why.
by borasalama on August 10th, 2008
borasalama, For your information I have posted Newspapeer coverage of Cronulla Riots in Sydney under answer from me. lol
by Theby on August 10th, 2008
TY Theby, when people overlook such reports it gives them a disorted picture of what's happening.
by borasalama on August 10th, 2008
Sure does. lol
by Theby on August 10th, 2008
by Declic on November 6th, 2008
Western people deplore Islam because it does not contain the Golden Rule. Islam is a political supremacist movement based on thought control, mind control and hatred of "the other". The West is now afraid of Islam's suicide cult which any mad mullah can mobilize with a fatwa. It is pure, basic Islam that is full of hate, not those who seek to protect themselves, their children and freedom of speech from this primitive, barbaric death cult.
You have a fertile imagination. -5
by Theby on November 16th, 2008
People do not hate the Islamic religion as a whole but what they do hate is the fanatical suicide bombers that is giving Islam bad publicity in the world.The Muslims that I know are peace loving and hate what these fanatics are doing to community relations and are apologising for the fanatics of their religion.They say that it is only the supporters of the Palestinian cause that is bringing Islam in disrepute.+4
by Schonberg on November 25th, 2008
Ahem...."fanatical suicide bombers..."? Palestine aside, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan. Who are terrorizing these countries?
by Theby on December 23rd, 2008
Why "Palestine aside"?
by Theby on March 1st, 2009
You are definitely mentally unstable as you are now having to go back three months to knit pick on certain words,on something you have already commented on.You are becoming deranged and seem to thrive on controversy and for your own mental state you should perhaps refrain from controversial subjects as you cannot handle them.
by Schonberg on March 1st, 2009
Time does not change my opinion. Depression alters mood, not mental ability. One in twenty people suffer from some type of "depressive illness" during their lifetime, and, as I have stated before, bigots like you not only perpetrate but increase stigma. You are foolish and ignorant. You silly person. Shalomph
by Theby on March 1st, 2009
By the way, you need to sharpen up on Latin. It's spelt "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus". Two "ls" in the last word.
by Theby on March 1st, 2009
Actually you are wrong, Theby, depression impares the ability to make rational judgements and take decisions.
by Bohemian is back on December 10th, 2009
by prisoner on August 2nd, 2008
Because they are ignorant.
#1 answer!
by SABOTEUR on August 3rd, 2008
thanks ;)
by prisoner on August 3rd, 2008
I already stated that in my question.
by Theby on August 9th, 2008
Although you seek different answers, the obvious answer was in the question itself. That's probably what prisoner sought to point out with his answer, and I agree. In my opinion, whatever reason anyone cares to offer for hatred isn't worth discussing. They're just ignorant.
by SABOTEUR on August 9th, 2008
The only comments I have for both prisoner and yourself are the two short one and two word answers. I have lost the rest. I can't remember what prisoner said. Anyway, may the Lord bless you both.
by Theby on August 9th, 2008
Thanks, Saboteur.
That WAS my point.
by prisoner on August 10th, 2008
Thebyannhill, A better way to phrase your question would be:
"Why are the people who hate Islam so ignorant?"
maybe,.,.
by prisoner on August 10th, 2008
You are right, prisoner. My question could have been phrased your way.
by Theby on August 10th, 2008
Actually Prisoner, on second thought, my question is correct. I am only referring to the ignorant people, not everyone.
by Theby on September 15th, 2008
The ignorant people are the only ones who hate. there are no others, are there?
by prisoner on September 15th, 2008
There are others who are not ignorant of Islam and still hate it, but I didn't include that in my question.
by Theby on November 2nd, 2008
right but SOME people hate BECAUSE they are ignorant. If they actually KNEW about islam, then POSSIBLY they wouldn't hate it, and they would no longer be ignorant..
by prisoner on November 4th, 2008
True, prisoner.
by Theby on November 23rd, 2008
by Schonberg on December 23rd, 2008
Post removed
You are supposed to answer not ask. I don't know what you are going on about.
by Theby on January 2nd, 2009
Watch the video again you have definitely missed the point why some people hate Islam.We in the civilized world do not train young children how to kill,but of course you will see nothing wrong with that.Those clerics you listen to at the mosque have poisoned your brain with their evil filth.
by Schonberg on January 2nd, 2009
@schonberg, I can see why people hate Islam. looking at your link, it's just bloody unbeleivable. For some reason this is the kind of thing the media doesn't want the world to see, Why not is my question...
by Nrthn1 on January 6th, 2009
oops unbelievable, oh and yeh, where are these boys mothers?
by Nrthn1 on January 6th, 2009
Now you can see why some people hate Islam and its because the Jihadists amongst them train their young children to kill in the belief that they will become martyrs and go to heaven.Oh, and the boys mothers are encouraging their children to kill themselves.Its like something out of the dark ages before the world was civilized.
by Schonberg on January 6th, 2009
by Sanguine Visions is wearing ninja garbs on December 22nd, 2008
I'm ignorant towards Islam and I'm not hating it.
by Not perfect on December 22nd, 2008
Islam does not mean peace. It means submission to hate, kill everyone who is not muslim. Islam is a purely evil. Muslims are VICTIMS of brainwashed for 1,400 years and going on. Islam can not give peace to us. ONLY God gives us peace. I hope that God will make islam religous to disappear in after 2020's.
Read the Qur'an have you? Hopefully, by the 2020's Islam will be the largest religion in the world. It's the fastest growing one right now. Dream on, Not perfect.
by Theby on January 2nd, 2009
Hey remember the witch trials? Was that a justified act? To say that an institution is pure evil is an uneducated comment. Luckily we have been brainwashed by other religions for about just as long so to put it all on islam is silly. Anyway Allah IS the God of Abraham. Look at the trespasses of your own religion before you criticize another, you might see some comparissons.
by Eamonmc on January 4th, 2009
I do not care about the witch trials. That was Christians killing Christians, and you say we Muslims are evil?
by Theby on January 4th, 2009
John 2: Don't associate with non-Christians. Don't receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 10
Muslims are specifically told to respect Jews and Christians in the Holy Qur'an.
by Theby on January 4th, 2009
Wrong again Theby: John 2 : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+2&version=NIV
.
Take a look at Google video Dispatches Undercover mosque and see what they are saying.
by Bohemian is back on December 10th, 2009
by Stick it!! on September 15th, 2008
Who ever gave you the idea that people are ignorant
about Islam?????
What???? wrong answer.......again????
by Stick it!! on November 23rd, 2008
If they weren't ignorant, they wouldn't hate Islam.
by Theby on January 2nd, 2009
Oops!! I wasn't thinking about the hate part, my mind was on the
people are ignorant about Islam.
by Stick it!! on January 2nd, 2009
Rest, Before attempting to be witty or sarcastic I think you should read up on your social skills. Or perhaps start with a picture book.
by Theby on January 2nd, 2009
No sarcastic intent in my answer, just an honest answer though an incomplete one.
by Stick it!! on January 3rd, 2009
I apologise to you. It can sometimes be very easy to misinterpret someone's answer when there is no body or tonal language to help. +6
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
by LuckyLefty on August 9th, 2008
People hate what they don't understand.
by 23Skidoo on August 2nd, 2008
Bor - while you're looking up "ignorance" in a good dictionary, you may want to flip on over to "prejudice". Yous seem to misunderstand it's meaning.
People who dislike something after learning about it may not be correct, but they also cannot be prejudiced.
And please note: neither Antigone nor I have said anything about the people of Islam. I have no issue with them. It's the religion itself I have problems with.
-
And I really do wish you'd quit making proclamations about my motivations. You don't know me and you have absolutely no clue as to why I do what I do.
-
I come write the truth as I see it. If you are incapable is seeing any disagreement as other than mockery you betray your own "pre-judgment".
Put all your answers together and a very good picture of you emerges. -5
by Theby on August 2nd, 2008
I should think the same applies to anyone who has a coherent worldview.
I don't really hide mine - I am against religion of any flavor, for science and rational thought.
-
Have you discovered something else I should know? ;-)
by 23Skidoo on August 2nd, 2008
What was the first thing I discovered?
by Theby on August 2nd, 2008
How should I know? Is this a quiz?
You're the one with the powers of discovery. I just talk about what's important and say what's true.
by 23Skidoo on August 2nd, 2008
You asked that first asked the question, you idiot!
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
My comment is answer no. 16.
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
How can you have a problem with a religion you are not a follower of. Unless you're saying you'd love to follow it but 'it's just this five daily prayers I have a problem with' for example.
.
mockery is in the language one uses to say something, my friend, and one can't hide it once one's said it. One can apologise and say one didn't mean to say "stick his ass in the air for Allah". But that is IF, and it's a big if, a person can bring himself down from his pedestal of superiority. Prostrations to God and "sorry" to fellow beings can be very difficult for the high and mighty.
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
The...
Please restrain yourself. There is no need to be an a$$hole.
There is no way anyone but you can know the 1st thing you discovered. You haven't stated it here. You have made some clever sounding comments and made some insinuations but you haven't made a single statement.
by 23Skidoo on August 3rd, 2008
Who are you talking to? It's not up to me to make statements, dear. I ASKED THE QUESTION!
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
bor -
I have no desire to apologize. I simply observed the posture and made a perfectly accurate description.
I can and do have problems with all religions - though I am follower of none. They all make claims they cannot substantiate, and make promises (of paradise) they cannot fulfill.
by 23Skidoo on August 3rd, 2008
The -
You state in this thread:
1. Put all your answers together and a very good picture of you emerges. -5
-
2. What was the first thing I discovered?
-
3. You asked that first asked the question, you idiot!
-
My case rests.
by 23Skidoo on August 3rd, 2008
You don't HAVE to apologise. Just be judged by your statements and attitudes, like all of us are.
.
"I can and do have problems with all religions - though I am follower of none" that's a rather unfortunate position to put yourself in.
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
Not in the slightest, why should it be? I have problems with anyone who makes unsubstantiated claims, threats and promises. Especially when they cause so much strife in the world.
-
Shouldn't decent people be against lies that lead the naive to war? Many people and philosophies have done that - but religion adds that literally magic element - being on the side of god and righteousness.
by 23Skidoo on August 3rd, 2008
There has to be strife against what is unjust, that's the reality of life 23Skidoo, if there isn't this strife then wickedness will just take over. The baser nature of man is forever lurking just under the surface. Witness how busy the police are in many urban societies. I fully agree with you, we must stand up against lies, WHATEVER their source, that lead to pointless destruction. Any religion that promotes such lies is not worthy of the title religion which should be a means of "re ligio" or "reconnection" with the Creator who cannot be wanting anything but what is good for His creation. This is one of many factors by which to judge a good religion. Blind unquestioning faith can be dangerous.
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
My wife is afraid of my involvement in this thread. Given the killings of film makers, cartoonists and other critics of
Islam I have hard time arguing with her.
-
I will no longer discuss this too dangerous topic.
-
And that alone is case and point.
by 23Skidoo on August 3rd, 2008
I shouldn't worry, statistically a human being is more likely to die from American firepower as a result of being a Muslim than he is from any power as a result of contributing to AB. The comment posted by Im Alec on Aug, 03 2008 at 08:53 AM @ http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/3605914 might be interesting. Anyway, I leave you with the greeting of Jesus (Luke 24:36) and of Muslims all over the gobe - Assalaam aleikom.
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
23Skidoo, I wondered why you stopped being so offensive. Now I have my answer. You have no reason to be frightened (as borasalama said.} May Allah bless you.
by Theby on August 4th, 2008
I'm pleased you think I stopped being offensive. It was never my in tent to offend. I just don't mince words and I call things as I see them. I don't believe religions are any different from other philosophical, political, aesthetic, or moral belife systems and deserve no 'extra respect' or coddling.
:-)
Cheers and May the Light of Reason Illuminate Your Mind
by 23Skidoo on August 4th, 2008
"It was never my in tent to offend. I just don't mince words and I call things as I see them." Excellent Islamic principles, which let's hope more will follow and respect.
.
A very resounding Amen to your beautiful parting wish (I expect Atheists don't have prayers) with "Your Mind" hopefully covering not only Muslims who should be using "the Light of Reason" (the HQ) but you and all others on the globe too.
.
TY 23Skidoo and TY Theby for reassuring and inspiring him.
by borasalama on August 4th, 2008
by Rollie on July 28th, 2008
They only hear about the fanatics and classify them as representing Islam as a whole.
You can do that with Christians also if you read/hear about the Inquisition of the Middle Ages or about the ethnic/religious clensing efforts in parts of the former USSR.
Other religions also have histories or practices which upset some folks.
I do keep hearing that there is a majority of Muslims who are peace loving and who abhor the terrorism done in their name. But what about the fatwa on Rushdie for the Satanic Verses? What about the Dutch film maker killed for criticizing Islam? What about the death threats over silly cartoons? I hear no Muslim majority demanding their brothers in faith stop killing and begin acting like adults.
-
As for the Crusades and inquisitions - you're absolutely right. Nice that we haven't had any in hundred of years.
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
You do have a point. But, are the majority of Muslims afraid of the fanatics just like the rest of us?? I think so. I've heard some who are now citizens of the US say they would be dead if they wouldn't have left.
by Rollie on July 28th, 2008
My point exactly. There are Christian fanatics but I'm not afraid of them. It's the Muslim ones.
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
AB points? also.
by Rollie on July 28th, 2008
"There are Christian fanatics but I'm not afraid of them. It's the Muslim ones." I think I'm inclined to agree with 23Skidoo on that one. In the 7/7 and other attrocities no one stood up and said 'right all Muslims out'. The carriages could have been full of Muslims for all they cared. But Hitler made sure the six million were Jews, the Serbs made sure the thousands they were lining up and shooting in the back were Muslims, the xx Church (don't want to offend) gave us the phrase 'trial by ordeal' for the tests they used, to make sure the forced converts had genuinely converted to xx - it seemed quite fair to them. They'd only burn you if you failed the trial but, as they might say, if you have really converted Jesus will protect you and this red hot charcoal will not burn your hands or you won't gasp to breathe when we immerse and hold your head down in this bucket of water.
by borasalama on August 1st, 2008
by Yarnlady is happy every day on August 4th, 2008
Your statement is too broad. I am mostly ignorant of Islam, and I don't hate it. I fear all intolerant religious extremists.
I did not say Islam is intolerant or extremist. To every action there is a reaction. Islam is simply be reactionary.
by Theby on August 9th, 2008
Neither did I. I fear "all" is what I said.
by Yarnlady is happy every day on August 9th, 2008
I was referring to people who are "completely" ignorant of Islam.
by Theby on September 15th, 2008
Here we go again. You are correct Yarnlady. Theby's statement is too broad. She thinks Islam only consists of the Koran as she pointed out to me on another thread. Unfortunately, the word encompasses a great deal more than that.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
No, I am right. YARN said she is mostly ignorant of Islam. My question addresses people who are "completely" ignorant of Islam. For a question that is so "broad" I have received 176 answers. Can't be too "broad!"
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
If it was narrow, Theby, you would have received fewer answers.
by Bohemian is back on December 10th, 2009
by VandalEyes on July 28th, 2008
They actually hate God. It's just easier to take it out on His creations. It's not about Islam, that's just the excuse.
Can't hate that witch don't exist. But you can feel anyway you want toward those who perpetuate ignorance and superstition.
Please don't confuse the two.
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
of course a person can "hate that witch don't exist". The fact that something doesn't exist changes nothing if the mind believes it does. The debate over the existence of God is moot. Neither side a can prove it's arguments. Though I agree that the burden of proof does rest on the believers(after all it's impossible to prove something doesn't exist). Oh, and when complaining about ignorance, please try not to show your own. "hate that witch don't exist". Really?
by VandalEyes on July 28th, 2008
oh, and most of the people that do rally against Islam do believe in God, just not Allah.
by VandalEyes on July 28th, 2008
VE, Where did you get the impression that Muslims hate God? Can I have your reference, please. You cannot make a comment like that and not back it up. If you cannot provide a reference for me to see I will assume you are saying just what YOU think, that no-one else has said this. If this is the case you should start you sentence with "I think", as in "I think they actually hate God." We Muslims pray to the same God as Christians, except we call him Allah....easy! VE don't make me think you are the epitome of ignorance. Supply your reference. -4
by Theby on July 29th, 2008
The, though I disagree with Vandal, I actually think s/he was talking about the people you were referring too - those ignorant masses you see hating Islam.
-
Vandal - Can you present a comprehensive list of things people hate yet don't exist? No, I have to disagree with you on that - but I will amend the point a bit - a sane person doesn't hate what doesn't exist. I will concede that some delusional or otherwise disturbed souls may.
-
And I was just about to remark on you comment about my ignorance and then re-read what you said. All I can say is you must feel mighty superior railing about typos. That certainly is the biggest indicator of high intelligence I can think of. I bow to your obvious Super-Intellect.
-
And lastly, I hate to have to say this - me being such a typo making ignoramus and you being such an ... But Allah is the Arabic word for God.
by 23Skidoo on July 29th, 2008
But, VE, to get back to your main point - in spite of your luminous mental powers, making pronouncements blanket about what "They" (presumably the ignorant masses that hate Islam) think and fear does nothing but show your lack of thought about the subject. How can you possibly know who or how many they are, forget about what thousands or perhaps millions of total strangers might think?
-5
by 23Skidoo on July 29th, 2008
23S, I get did it wrong didn't I? Thank you for pointing it out to me.
by Theby on July 29th, 2008
VE, I took the wrong meaning from your answer. I apologise. But I still don't agree with you.
by Theby on July 29th, 2008
okay you are right, 23. I am sorry for being a nit picky dickhead. truly. Let me make this clear- I am an agnostic and do not believe in any deity that man has conceived. I am more of a wait and see type of person. Too occupied with living a good life to worry all that much about dying. What I meant by people hating God more than hating a religion I mean that many people hold a grudge against their perceived creator for all the pain and absurdity that is life. And since there is way too much guilt in even admitting a problem with one's own god these good christians take it out on those of an alternate faith. It also has much to do with misinformation and group mentality and the sad truth that through anger comes power. the rush of hatred is enhanced by the sense of focus it brings with it. To understand and behave with compassion for other religions is seen as weakness or even seen as blasphemous behavior. Religion is a cruel thing to bring a child into. again i am sorry, 23
by VandalEyes on November 17th, 2008
No reason to apologize to me. I agree that teaching a child to believe in hell and some UberSanta that doesn't stop watching and judging you (and calling that "love") is child abuse.
Cheers
by 23Skidoo on November 17th, 2008
Allah does not judge (at least not until Judgement day, Insh'allah} I suppose you will find out the hard way about Hell.
by Theby on November 18th, 2008
Look, Thebyann, if I'm in hell and you aren't there, then it can't really be all that bad. At least I won't have to listen to any of your holier than thou bullshit. Besides all my friends will be there. On a more serious note, I don't fear God because I'm too busy being afraid of all you fuckin' God people thinking they know the will of their Omnipotent Inconceivable Unfathomable Perfect God. You are the devils of this world. Too bad you got your heads so far up each other's asses thinking you are right and good to see it. Go piss up a rope you dick.
by VandalEyes on November 18th, 2008
What? You believe in the devil but not God? That sounds a bit strange to me since they both come from the same books. You do not have to resort to invective to get your point across. It makes you sound less credible and, frankly, unintelligent. "Too occupied with living a good life", is that good as in doing what you want or good as in helping other people, being kind, etc...? I have never heard that "anger brings power". Where did you hear that or did you 'work it out' for yourself? If you are so anti-me, VE, why do you keep coming on this thread? BTW, in the context of how you used it, witch is a misspelling, it's which. Asalaam Alykom :-D
by Theby on November 18th, 2008
Though one needn't express oneself in such colorful language, I wholeheartedly agree. The biggest pain in the ass about many, though certainly not all, religious people is their sanctimonious, "my ass smells like god's roses" bullshit.
.
But I understand even that - it can get tough hanging on to such an incredibly unlikely bunch of fantasies in the constant onslaught of the light of reason. After all, the computers they use to type their crap, the radio and TV they use to scare and seduce the gullible into making them rich or be willing to die for their entirely worldly glory are products of (mostly) atheist reasonable people.
by 23Skidoo on November 19th, 2008
You two are obviously anti-Islam. Why come on the Muslim site? I don't go on the athiest site to scream invective. I can only surmise that you are troublemakers. Why bother??
by Theby on November 23rd, 2008
I'm not anti-Islam. I am against sanctimonious, pompous people who are full of themselves. And they can be Muslim, Christian, atheist or whatever. Get over yourself.
by 23Skidoo on November 23rd, 2008
23, I have been reading some of your other comments. You are all over the place. Go away.
by Theby on November 24th, 2008
Why should I go away? What makes you think you have the right to order anyone around?
by 23Skidoo on November 24th, 2008
I have the right to do whatever I please.
by Theby on November 27th, 2008
Where do you get those rights? The law certainly doesn't give you "...the right to do whatever I please."
by 23Skidoo on November 28th, 2008
I do whatever I please within the law and my religion. I would not disobey the law, and definately not disobey Shar'ia.
by Theby on November 28th, 2008
So then you admit you were wrong when you said, "...the right to do whatever I please."
.
Since no secular law gives you the right or authority to order people around like that, is it your religious law that does so?
by 23Skidoo on November 28th, 2008
It pleases me to follow Shar'ia law. But get real, 23. No secular law is going to arrest me for telling you to go away.
by Theby on November 28th, 2008
Why should it? And I never said that? Do you like making things up?
.
For your convenience I repeat, "Since no secular law gives you the right or authority to order people around like that, is it your religious law that does so?"
and emphasize the key bit...
.
Is it your religious law that gives authority to order people about?
by 23Skidoo on November 28th, 2008
I'm not getting into this with you, again. You just think what you want and we'll call it quits. Okay?
by Theby on November 28th, 2008
I just find it funny - you make proclamations you can't support and then get pissy when you're called on it. I have no magical power forcing you to continue doing so - and there is no law (secular or religious) so you have always been free to quit whenever you have wanted.
by 23Skidoo on November 28th, 2008
23, I can order anyone around that I like. No law against that. I am assuming the "23" is your age in years, or perhaps, months?
by Theby on November 29th, 2008
Ahhh... Silly insults. Always a sign of strength.
.
As for ordering people around - sure, you can say or write the words. But I wonder, doesn't it get frustrating having your orders ignored?
.
But why ask... you've already answerd with silly insults. :-)
Cheers
by 23Skidoo on November 29th, 2008
Yes, I admit, I did stoop to a new low of insulting. I just wanted to see what it felt like. You know, since you do it all of the time.
by Theby on November 29th, 2008
Ouch. That hurt. :-)
Don't you ever get sick of that "I know you are but what am I?" level of discourse?
by 23Skidoo on November 29th, 2008
Semantics, semantics.
by Theby on November 29th, 2008
Sure. Look - we've moved on to other questions where we even look close to agreement on some things. As much as I've enjoyed this irrational behavior and stellar example of religious tenacity, I'm outta here.
Cheers. I'm unsubbing so whatever else you say will be between you and your (almost certainly) imaginary god.
by 23Skidoo on November 29th, 2008
Bye, 23.
by Theby on November 29th, 2008
by zeuspoop on November 30th, 2009
I think you answered your own question. Ignorance usually breeds contempt. We (naturally) fear what we don't know, and fear becomes hatred easily.
The purpose of a forum isn't to answer one's own questions. That would be monologue. Islam doesn't like debate or discussion, since it is an authoritarian political philosophy.
The saying is: 'Familiarity breeds contempt.' The more you learn about Islamic supremacism, the more you will find it disturbing and anti-democratic.
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
I accidentally wrote my response to you in the answer box instead of here.(yeah, i know, duh.) it's now floating around under the original question if you are interested in reading it.
by zeuspoop on December 7th, 2009
+6....
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
by Xammux on November 27th, 2009
People naturally fear what they don't understand. Look at Satanism, for example. People automatically associate it with devil worship and occult magic. It's nothing like that. The more ignorant a person is about a subject, the more they are going to grow a disdain of it, and are less likely to at least learn something about it.
Great answer. Thanks, Xammux. :D
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
No problem.
by Xammux on November 27th, 2009
Xammux, Are you guessing? Or do you know for a fact what you are saying is true?
While you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. People have already posted in this forum and said they know nothing about Islam and have no opinion.
Are you making up facts?
by Declic on November 28th, 2009
Where does it say that what I'm saying is a fact? I'm just giving my honest opinion considering that I have had similar situations. I'm also pretty sure that even though it may be just my opinion, there are quite a few people who would agree with me.
by Xammux on November 28th, 2009
If a million people believe the earth is flat, it does not make it true...regardless of sincerity. Only one person with a telescope may see the earth travels about the sun and is round. It only takes one person to discover the truth.
An uninformed opinion is like that and is no more than a prejudice. Prejudice is not a good thing.
by Declic on November 28th, 2009
How is my opinion prejudice?
by Xammux on November 28th, 2009
An unsupported opinion based on guessing is a prejudice.
by Declic on November 29th, 2009
Prejudice is an "unfavorable" opinion formed without knowledge, thought, or reason. I said what I did because I can say so from experience, which indicates "knowledge", "thought", and "reason". My answer is not prejudice in any way. Also, I don't understand why you decided to attack my answer where there are hundreds of others here whose answers ARE prejudice, whereas mine is not. Next time, think BEFORE you act!
by Xammux on November 29th, 2009
'Pre-judge' means any judgment made 'before' getting adequate information or evidence. By reading the comments in this forum of people already claiming 'ignorance' of Islam you would start to get an impression that this question doesn't jibe with the reality. People in our Western societies are on the whole very tolerant of 'the other', whereas Islam is the most intolerant doctrine in the world.
by Declic on November 29th, 2009
Xammux, Dec has started haranguing ABers' who do not insult Islam in reply to my question as he does. Best to ignore the man. :D
e.g. http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/8395119
by Theby on November 29th, 2009
Gotcha. Thanks
by Xammux on November 30th, 2009
'Debate' is not 'insult'. I wish people to be alerted to the danger of Islamic taqiyya.
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
Just get off the topic.
by Xammux on November 30th, 2009
What would you have said in 1933?
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
Absolutely nothing. I wasn't around then!
by Xammux on November 30th, 2009
The only opposition to Hitler was the Munich Post. Their offices were wrecked by Hitler's terrorists. They were all rounded up and assassinated, no one knows where they went.
Does this sound similar to Islamic rampaging today?
by Declic on December 1st, 2009
Five million Britons took the 'peace pledge' during the Thirties vowing not to fight Hitler. When 1939, they had no real choice but to sign up. I bet you would have taken the 'peace pledge'.
by Declic on December 1st, 2009
Theby Anne has asked a leading question. I am merely trying to reveal to you that you have not yet examined her fallacious argument, but rather accepted it at face value. A fallacious, 'leading question' is like a mouse trap in logic.
by Declic on December 1st, 2009
That may be, but in our world here and now, I may not agree with the teachings of Islam, but I'm not going to set out to destroy it, much like yourself. I am above that. I can at least accept the fact that he chooses Islamic beliefs as his own, and that stereotyping, which is what you are doing, is unjust against the individual. After this moment, I will no longer respond to any accusations you make. You will just be wasting your breath. Sometimes, you just need to know when to stop.
by Xammux on December 1st, 2009
You are free to differ because you do not live in Moslem country. I wish to make you aware, not hurt your feelings. Moslems have a doctrine called 'taqiyya'...holy deception of the infidels. Islam uses deception to advance its political agenda as is being done at the Human Rights Council of the United Nations. This is a serious concern. Moslems are trying to take away your right to differ...which I support and am trying to defend.
by Declic on December 3rd, 2009
The term "taqiyya" is within the Shite theological framework, not the Sunni one.
by Theby on December 5th, 2009
by bena on November 18th, 2009
Because of 1... the violence of today is mainly by Muslims
2... Fanatic hold on head cover, body cover policies
3... When in Rome do as Romans do is NOT adopted
4... Call to prayer through loudspeaker system disturbs the whole neighborhood
1. Jihad is sacred violence to subjugate 'the other'.
2. Islamic covering is to protect Moslem men from temptation. Why can all Moslem men not be fitted with chastity belts, rather than enslaving women? Moslem men obviously have the problem of not controlling themselves...not the women!
3. Islam is a supremacist, totalitarian, world conquest cult.
4. Moslems have human rights that other groups do not have. If you disagree with that Mohammed approves of your execution. This is the fallacy of the appeal to force in place of a reasoned argument. This argument takes up 63% of the Koran.
by Declic on November 18th, 2009
Brother Declic I'm afraid FBI and CIA will arrest you cause you are also Fanatic .
by Ambassador of Love on February 10th, 2010
by Don Quixote el Manchego on November 4th, 2009
this is generally how hatred works. most often, people hate what they don't understand.
Don, DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE...OR ARE YOU GUESSING??
Dear DQ,
A number of forum members have already confessed they have no knowledge of Islam and consequently (they said) they have no opinion of Islam either...one way or another. Are you making up facts? Are you guessing?
By the way, Miguel de Cervantes was captured by Moslem slavers in 1575. He wrote two plays based on his five horrendous years. He knew a great deal about slavery in the centre of Islamic slavery, Algiers where millions lost their liberty. Slavery is an inseparable part of Islam. 'Islam' means submission, another word for slavery.
by Declic on November 4th, 2009
i'm guessing, but that's all anyone can do is guess. no one can truly know the motives for why people hate. at best, you can ask them and take their word for it, but that's still not evidence as they could be lying.
what seems to be true throughout history is that hatred seems to fade once understanding begin to pervade society. there are plenty of moments in history that indicate this: black/white relations in the u.s., muslim/jew relations during the golden age, cypriot relations (on the island, not outsiders), and even all the tolerance witnessed in the u.k. heck, even the improvement in relations between the u.s. and russia.
of course there are other factors for hatred that don't improve with understanding (competition for resources, irredentist claims for the same land) but few of the world's islamophobes really understand islam.
by Don Quixote el Manchego on November 4th, 2009
Guessing leads to misunderstanding. Guessing gets us no where. Only precise measurement is helpful.
One way to measure opinion is scientific surveys. They get more precise all the time. The supposed Golden Age of Islamic Spain is a fantasy you are having.
Somewhere in the 20th century the myth developed of an interfaith utopia in medieval Spain. This is pure fantasy. The facts are far different and are recorded by the victims of persecution.
by Declic on November 9th, 2009
“God has hurled us into the midst of this people, the Arabs, who have persecuted us severely, and pass baneful and discrinatory legislation against u...Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they (the Arabs)" –Moses Maimonides
by Declic on November 9th, 2009
“If we were to consider the persecutions that have befallen us in recent years, we would not find anything comparable recorded by our ancestors in their annals. We are made the object of inquisitions; great and small testify against us and judgments are pronounced, the least of which render lawful the spilling of our blood, the confiscation of our property, and the dishonor of our wives.
… the [Muslim] custodians are able to dispose of our young children and their belongings as they see fit.” - Ibn Aqnin
by Declic on November 9th, 2009
The subjugated peoples of Islamic Spain no where called the Islamic persecutors 'mild' or 'tolerant'. Nor did they call that a Golden Age. They complained bitterly of persecution. I believe their accounts of persecution. Not the invented fables about a Golden Age of tolerance you are peddling.
Don't guess Don Quixote. Read. Measure. Be exact. Be a man.
by Declic on November 9th, 2009
if you think that only precise measurements are what pushes science forward, then you know very little. all of linguistics, psychology, anthropology, medicine, etc. started with guessing. the first parts of the scientific method are observing and HYPOTHESIZING.
moreover, the question to which i responded is about why people hate. this is part of the internal process specific to each individual and cannot be measured since no one has access to the consciousness of another. and, if they did, you would have to determine the reasoning of every single individual on the planet who hates to say with absolute certainty. in any case, neither is possible. this is why we have guessing, hypothesizing and theorizing.
by Don Quixote el Manchego on November 10th, 2009
and surveys are not a precise measurement. ask any census taker why the population of americans with english ancestry is so low considering how many english have immigrated here. they'll tell you that people underreport.
my sister-in-law, who is a statistician married to a statistician (my brother), is doing research now in stacking and rounding in self-reporting. in her case she's working with cigarette smokers. people lie on surveys. a lot!
by Don Quixote el Manchego on November 10th, 2009
and as far as my understanding of history goes, there's no need for guessing there. because i know it pretty well. there was certainly a golden age of islam and i never said ANYTHING about spain. as to what the spanish subjects may have called their "persecutors" you can only GUESS. there's certainly no way to process the entire historic field of what everyone said to know that "no where[sic] no where called the Islamic persecutors 'mild' or 'tolerant'." be precise! be exact! and know that manhood is not a function of one's propensity or capacity for precision or exactness. manhood (being a man) relates to hormonal changes that happen in the body of human males as they transition through puberty.
you should read more.
by Don Quixote el Manchego on November 10th, 2009
lastly, quotes from maimonides and ibn aqnin have not bearing on the historical field. they serve, as do most quotes, as anecdotal insights into how these men perceived the world. nothing more. since i have a perspective that they could not have, it would be far easier for me to attest to civilizations that were far more heinous than that of the arabs. i'd probably start with the hebrews and how they continuously wiped out whole tribes and races of people and then claimed that god gave them the right to do it.
by Don Quixote el Manchego on November 10th, 2009
The tu quoque fallacy is a red herring distraction proving you cannot defend the Islamic violence and persecution of 'the other'.
On the contrary, everything you write proves you discredit the Golden Rule, approve of slavery and endorse wholesale slaughter of populations, and political supremacism. Such a political philosophy is called 'totalitarianism'. The Don Quixote of literature sought to defend the weak, but you approve of attacking and subjugating them.
by Declic on November 18th, 2009
DQ wrote: 'far more heinous than that of the arabs. i'd probably start with the hebrews...'
Dear Don Q,
Are you a racist?
What you have just written is dehumanizing to a portion of humanity. This is bigotry and racism.
We are discussing ideas...a totalitarian 'ideology', not a 'race' of people.
Do you approve of genocide as well?
by Declic on November 18th, 2009
Thanks for your answer, Don.
by Theby on November 28th, 2009
Anne,
Do you approve of genocide?
by Declic on November 28th, 2009
You mean like what the Israelis' are doing to Palestinians?
by Theby on November 29th, 2009
by sharpjwe on October 28th, 2009
Slavery and emancipation
Main article: Islam and slavery
The major juristic schools of Islam have traditionally accepted the institution of slavery. However, Islam has prescribed five ways to free slaves, has severely chastised those who enslave free people, and regulated the slave trade. The source of slaves was restricted to war in preference to killing whole tribes en masse, as was the tradition at the time. Slaves also had more rights under Islam as an owner could not mistreat them, and slaves were treated as equals. Many slaves were freed after certain period of time, or if they were ransomed.
Slavery is inherently evil. You are deluding yourself.
It is always exceedingly cruel to deprive another human being of his liberty! No real prophet or real god would suggest enslaving one's fellow humans. Islam is predatory and is entirely based on slavery. Moslems are never enslaved. The purpose of a Moslem's existence is to own slaves, both on earth and in paradise where the least number of slaves (per Moslem) is 70,000.
Moslems are fooling themselves, but no one else.
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
Dear Sharp,
You have defended depriving infidels of their human rights through Islamic dictatorship, you have defended stoning, you have defended slavery! Is there any cruel practise you will not defend?
I am waiting for you tell us why pious Moslem men should rape their slave girls: KORAN 4:24 “And all married women are (forbidden unto you) save those (captive infidel women) whom your right hands possess.” KORAN 8:69 “Eat ye the spoils of war. They are lawful and pure”
Please explain why rape of captive infidel women is ‘lawful'.
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
that is why we dislike islam
and cristianity too
they all where approuving salvery
by sharpjwe on October 30th, 2009
declic
i am against all religions
by sharpjwe on October 30th, 2009
Dear Sharp,
I can't think of any religion today that threatens your personal freedom except for Islam. Islam means 'submission' and no one is as submitted as a slave. The Koran fully supports slavery and Moslems will each be waited on in paradise by a minimum of 70,000 slaves. Slavery is the whole point of Islam, forcing the world to submit to Islamic law and women to Islamic men under the dictatorship of a caliph. Islam is a supremacist political system disguised behind Islamic religion.
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
My line of thought is that while the Golden Rule (benevolence to those who are different from us) is central to other religions, Islam actively opposes the Golden Rule. Islam is based on slavery and inequality.
There is no threat for you from any religion that practices the Golden Rule. Today every faith save Islam has officialy repudiated the institution of slavery and even apologised for the errors of the past.
Islam cannot apologise for slavery without ceasing to be Islam.
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
by sharpjwe on October 28th, 2009
Stoning, or lapidation, refers to a form of capital punishment.
Stoning is a form of execution whereby an organized group throws stones at the convicted individual until the person dies or the condemned person is pushed from a platform set high enough above a stone floor that the fall would probably result in instantaneous death.[1]
Stoning has been used throughout history in a number of places, both in the form of community justice and also as a judicial form of capital punishment. The practice is referred to in Islamic shariah, as well as Christian and Jewish texts of antiquity
DO MONKEYS GET MARRIED?
Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:
Narrated ‘Amru bin Maimun: "During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them."
Bukhari is considered the most correct and reliable of hadith recorders. This saying cannot be doubted by Moslems.
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
The Koran and Hadiths are so filled with absurd fables and scientific errors why should anyone put any trust in them?
This story must be very embarrassing for Moslems! But they have no way out. Bukhari said so.
To apply common sense, I ask, 'Is this so-called prophet delusional, medacious or psychotic?
Moslems, if you accept this absurd twaddle, where are your brains? Do you really think monkeys get married?
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
Dear Sharp,
My heart fills with sorrow when you make up facts. Christians have never believed in stoning following the example of Jesus who refused to use it (John 8.1-11). 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.' Many rabbis believe that stoning should never be used. Many modernist Moslems point out the 'stoning' verse was left out of the Koran. Maybe it is another 'satanic verse.'
I don't know why you love stoning.
It is a cruel, unusual and barbaric punishment. The person often takes several hours to die after brains are spattered all around...while the person (usually never a man) writhes in agony. Shame on you for defending this practice.
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
declic the question is why you hate the Islam
the answer is stoning
by sharpjwe on October 30th, 2009
In the Old Testament, men were condemned to be stoned to death for picking up firewood on the Sabbath.
by Bohemian is back on October 31st, 2009
Dear Ex,
You are right, of course. While there were about 10 OT reasons for stoning, but in practice, it was so abhorrently cruel that was almost never used. Practicing Jews would be among the first people to oppose this barbaric punishment today. However, dozens of people have been stoned in the Islamic world in the last several years. These are real, not theoretical stonings, and real cruelty. To their credit, many Moslems oppose their own religion, even though stoning is solidly Islamic.
(By the way, Sharp, I deplore using the word 'hate'...it leads to offences against the Golden Rule.)
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
But how do we know that it was rarely used in OT times? Christians were a pretty murderous lot then. However, I certainly agree with you over the practice used in the muslim world today. It makes you wonder if that part of the world remained in a time warp. It is difficult to conceive how people could live with the same mentality of 3000 or more years ago. However, it was only 90 years ago the British would kill their own soldiers for abandoning their rifle....and now the western world cannot discipline their children without fear of having them taken away from them!
by Bohemian is back on October 31st, 2009
The human propensity for aggression and violence is well established. The old expression 'the veneer of civilisation' expresses it well. We need rules to curb our natural urge to serve ourselves at the expense of others. That is what the Golden Rule is all about. The Western world has been gradually moving towards a greater and greater sense of fairness towards 'the other'. The point of this discussion is that Islam is trying to foist the tribal butchery of 7th century Arabia on the world against its will. Churchill said, “No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.” Kemal Ataturk said, “Islam, this absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin, is a rotting corpse which poisons our lives.”
By the way, I agree with much of what you say, but the British Army is very different today! An illustration of my point: evolution. Islam cannot evolve.
by Declic on November 4th, 2009
Morality is not moral unless it is moral all the time...consistently. Islamic morality has not consistency, but is flexible and opportunistic. We cannot call this 'moral', since it is 'situational' depending on whose ox is gored. In a shariah court, you need two witnesses against every Islamic witness. In some Shariah countries, you will not be able to testify against a Moslem.
by Declic on November 4th, 2009
Very interesting Dectic and I agree with you. I do believe however that there is a movement amongst some muslim countries to try and have the best of both worlds, so to speak, and that there are muslim intellectuals who are prepared to 'fit' islam into the western democratic model and are working towards that goal. I do believe that they will succeed eventually and that, as all archaic practices from the OT were left behind, so will the archaic practices of Islam, and they will move towards democracy.
by Bohemian is back on November 4th, 2009
I was also pleased to see that there compromise from muslims in the western world is beginning and that a top muslim scolar from Al Ahzar stated that, if it was against the law of the country muslim women should not wear the hijab. I believe the muslim society in Canada is taking as similar position. When the muslim world starts to compromise, then there will be progress.
by Bohemian is back on November 4th, 2009
we all have to respect the common law
so sould retrograde religious folks
by sharpjwe on November 5th, 2009
Of course sharpjwe. That is what Al Ahzar is advocating.
by Bohemian is back on November 6th, 2009
well that is good but there should
be more muslims like him
by sharpjwe on November 7th, 2009
Al Ahzar is both a university and mosque in Egypt. The intellectuals at the university are considered the leading authority on Islam. Muslims all over the world look to them for guidance and, it appears, they are far from radical.
by Bohemian is back on November 7th, 2009
well sorry
but how can you expain that the muslim world is in eruption and that murders are perpetrated dayly in the name of the faith
by sharpjwe on November 7th, 2009
You'd be amazed at how religion has been used by governments to control their populations in muslim countries. A government can choose whether to follow Al Ahzar or not. Their advice is not always binding. Together with this, a wide-spread lack of education in the muslim world makes people easy to manipulate by extremist intellectuals. Many countries have only recently allowed satellite channels and the internet.
by Bohemian is back on November 8th, 2009
Now it is more difficult to withold information from whole populations and conspiracy theories, misguided islamic teachings are only just being discussed openly and internationally. Another 20 years or so and the general population of the muslim world will be better informed. However, you will always get pockets of hard-nosed radicals who will continue to distort and manipulate but it will become less easy as the population becomes more educated and wealthier.
by Bohemian is back on November 8th, 2009
well i have not this problem
gouverments or religion cannot control me
as they all are lies
you prove that reilgions folks are IDIOTS
by sharpjwe on December 6th, 2009
Easily manipulated is a good way of putting it. Idiots is an accurate description in many a case.
by Bohemian is back on December 10th, 2009
by SoulFire on October 28th, 2009
I don't hate Islam, I respect peoples religious freedoms. Just so you know.
But my grandparents do. They believe that Islam was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. This hate is fueled by fundamentalist conservative media.
Suicide bombers tend to profess their beliefs in in Mohammed thus making the rest of the world believe that Islam is to blame for these terrorists. We are told by media that Muslims believe that if they die in service to Allah (even suicide bombings which kill innocents) that they will receive 72 virgins in heaven.
They believe that before the time of the crusades the Moors invaded Christian lands and violently took their territory away.
They believe Islam is a false faith with a false prophet who is deceiving Christ's children into following Satan.
Like I said I do not believe this, from what I have read of the Koran it sounds like a peaceful faith. Unfortunately the conservative media plays up atrocities caused by terrorists who they declare faithful Muslims.
MANY ERRORS MAY BE AVOIDED SIMPLY BY COUNTING!
Dear SF,
Your opinion or mine (or your parents’) about the Koran may be biased. However, counting the frequency of keywords in the Koran will accurately reveal the main topics on the mind of Allah.
Muslims claim that Islam is a religion of peace and love, but a statistical analysis of the keywords in the Koran display an Allah of hate, fear, terror.
Frequency of keywords in the Koran: fear = 300; hate = 400; love = 49...39 love of something negative…money, etc.; 5 = love of brother Moslems; 25 = ‘Allah does not love infidels’; 1 verse = love Allah & give money.
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
While there are over 300 references in the Koran to ‘Allah + fear’, there are only 49 references to love. Of these ‘love’ references, 39 are negative, such as the 14 negative references to ‘love of money, power, other gods and status’.
Only 3 Koran verses command Moslems to love Allah and 2 verses are about how Allah only loves a believer. There are 25 verses about how ‘Allah does not love kafirs’ (unbelievers).
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
This leaves 5 verses about ‘love’. Of these 5, 3 are about loving kin or a Muslim brother. One verse commands a Muslim to give money for the love of Allah. This leaves only one quasi-universal verse about love: give what you love to charity and even this is contaminated by double standards, since Muslim charity only goes to other Muslims.
However, there are over 400 teachings of hate of all infidels: Jews, Christians, Idolaters and Kafirs.
So much for love. Hate and fear is what Allah demands (in the Koran).
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
Interesting, though you could see this in the old testament bible, so you could say that it true about other faiths as well
I guess I look at the actions 1.5 billion Muslims and and do not see most of them terrorizing or wishing to go to war. I feel like actions speak louder then words. The new testament promotes the idea of peace and love, though if you look at Christianity's past actions you can see that the people with in the faith caused a great deal of pain and suffering to this world. Now I have noticed that in today's world Christians due tend to be more peaceful but some still promote the ideas of hate and intolerance.
by SoulFire on October 30th, 2009
Few Moslems attend the mosque today (less than 15%). The 85% of slackers who are 'cultural Moslems' would have been called 'hypocrites' by Mohammed. Mohammed's solution was to torch the homes of non-practicing Moslems. Mohammed is the only real authority on Islam. You can find the real,un-airbrushed Mohammed (warts and all) in his official biography 'THE SIRA'. The Sira is so violent and revolting, most Moslems will never encourage anyone to read...not even Moslems. They would lose their faith.
The Sira must be authentic, because it was written by the earliest Moslems. They could not possibly have invented such a repulsive person and thought him a genuine prophet.
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
All journalists in free countries have codes of ethics demanding high standards of accuracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism_ethics_and_standards
I hope you let the facts change your unsupported guesswork.
by Declic on December 26th, 2009
You actually believe journalists report the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth? They scew the story to there personal biases. In can be seen in every media around the world. In fact their are journalists who have said Americans rape woman and children and kill people for their organs. Liberal media reports something completely opposite of conservative media on the same topics. I think very few journalists follow a strict code of ethics. We will never agree on anything as we see the world in a very different way. But I respect you have a different opinion then me. Please feel free to continue so your words may be heard as well.
Regarding your religious numbers, you can say that about any faith. Christians are as hypocritical as Moslems. The Sira must be authentic? The bible too? All of these were written by the perspectives of humans who did not know God or the truth behind the true words of the prophets. Many cultural biases were written into both holy books. If only people would follow God's true law, which is love then the world would be a better place. But no leader can seem to do that for their countries or followers yet.
May God bring love and light into all souls.
by SoulFire on December 27th, 2009
@ declic: I have read the sira and i encourage people to read it. And from where do you get these statistics, they are totally wrong. Most muslims go to the mosque. And on friday all mosques are full and i mean full.
by Always Ready - COAT of courage on December 28th, 2009
I agree with soulfire media shouldnt be trusted. Happy monday everyone.
by Always Ready - COAT of courage on December 28th, 2009
Seems we have fanatic Christian here in AB .
what do you think brother declic !
by Ambassador of Love on February 10th, 2010
After reading more of the koran I have seen the words of love thy neighbor turn into slay thy neighbor. It is terrible. I believe Mohammed found the love of God and became his prophet. However being human he fell off the path of Love and turned to violence and greed. It is truly sad, for his teachings of love in the beginning truly are God's words. We are all human and unfortunately many people have seen the loving parts of Islam and not the hate. It is how they become converts. Mohammed falling off the path caused much pain and suffering for this world. He weeps for what he has done.
But Jesus also weeps for his followers who are seduced into war and haaerd of their fellow man. He weeps when people do not forgive and turn the other cheek. He weeps when lands are conquered in his name.
All the prophets of God, who had true intention of promoting love are great. But they are all human as well, with human frailties and human weaknesses. This does not excuses their words or actions, or words or actions of their people. It is the prophets who suffer the sins of their people, and they weep.
by SoulFire on February 10th, 2010
by borasalama on October 12th, 2009
Hatred of Islam is not necessarily fuelled by ignorance of Islam.
Hatred of Islam is like a fire once kindled it feeds on EVERYTHING it comes across, even knowledge about Islam. "The more I learn about it (Islam), and its prophet, the more I disagree with it" says the top answer to this question. Knowledge, not ignorance, about Islam fuels this person's negative attitude towards Islam. And it is the expression of that negative attitude that fuels the attitude of the sympathisers who voted it the top answer.
Another observed fact is that the flames of such hatred are almost impossible to put out.
Dear B, You are trying to suggest that disagreement is irrational. To be sure, there is an emotional reaction to totalitarianism, but that is pre-existing to the totalitarianism in question...political Islam. Islam's political world-conquest agenda is no more toxic than other world-conquest agendas...such as international communism or Nazism. I am a liberal democrat and deplore all totalitarianisms. Islam conceals its totalitarian agenda behind a veil of religion. You are actually against freedom of expression, but you are ashamed to admit it.
by Declic on October 12th, 2009
The subject is hatred, or dislike. You don't have to use either word to express those feelings. They come through loud and clear in descriptions like "totalitarianism", having a "world-conquest agenda" and "actually against freedom of expression"
.
History says Muslims, like other civilisations, expanded their empire. If they hadn't “modern European civilization would NEVER have risen at all. There is NO SINGLE aspect of European growth in which decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable" Rob Briffault in The Making of Humanity
.
Despite Muslims ruling for centuries over what is now Spain the majority there were non-Muslims. Converting people to Islam was obviously not on the agenda but granting them freedoms was. Jews found refuge from their persecution in the rest of Europe. These freedoms allowed the Jews to flourish so well that one Jewish writer pointed out "MOST EMPHATICALLY that the legal and ACTUAL POSITION of the Jews during the middle ages was much better in Muslim-Arab countries than in Christian Europe; and the 'Golden Age' of Judaism in Muslim Spain has become a phrase which has found its way even to the most popular accounts of Jewish history"
by borasalama on October 12th, 2009
You approve of totalitarianism as long as it is your totalitarianism...not someone else's.
You are a totalitarian.
All jihad is glorious to a Moslem. When will you apologize for invading Africa, Asia and Europe? No one invaded or attacked Arabia.
by Declic on October 12th, 2009
err, ever heard of the Crusades, or the Gulf War 1 and 2?
by borasalama on October 12th, 2009
If Moslem armies had not invaded Africa, Asia and Europe, there would have been no Crusades. It took Europe 200 years to perceive what the Arabs were doing and organize a response. No one invaded Arabia. They wanted the Moslems to stop invading other countries.
Saddam Hussein committed crimes against humanity, he was an ecoterrorist and was fairly tried by his own people.
You obviously love totalitarianism, as long as it is Moslem totalitarianism. You should move to Iran and get a taste of it!
by Declic on October 12th, 2009
You're a hypocrite, B. You'd love to have a US passport, wouldn't you?
by Declic on October 12th, 2009
By the way, 'Rob' Briffault...?? What sort of nobody was that?
Sir Winston Churchill (Nobel Prize winner and two-time prime minister of UK) said: 'the influence of the (Islamic) religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. NO STRONGER RETROGRADE FORCE EXISTS IN THE WORLD'
by Declic on October 12th, 2009
"'Rob' Briffault...?? What sort of nobody was that?" I expect he was the sort of nobody that says the sort of things that Islamophobes (I'm not saying you're one) like not to hear. There's another "nobody" @ http://www.dlmark.net/hundred.htm He claims to have researched and idetified the 100 most influential persons to have ever lived, and guess who tops the list.
.
As for Sir Winston Churchill, he was a charismatic figure but even his own people regarded him as a divisive elitist and a warmonger and, according to the BBC, he was "resoundingly rejected by the voters as their choice for peacetime leader"
.
Churchill was right in a way. Muslims have indeed become retrograde, but that is obviously because they have departed from the essence of Islam which enightened them to lead the world for centuries and lay the foundations upon which all the progress we enjoy today is based. see http://www.1001inventions.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.viewSection&intSectionID=309
by borasalama on October 13th, 2009
Dear B, You are living in an alternate reality. The true Islam is the Islam of the Sira. Mohammed is the only expert on Islam.
'I descended by Allah with the sword in my hand, and my wealth will come from the shadow of my sword. And the one who will disagree with me will be humiliated and persecuted.' -Ibn Hisham
If you are not a jihadist nor wish to be a jihadist...if you do not hate the infidels in your heart for the sake of Allah...you are a hypocrite and deserve to be 'punished'(...i.e. killed by your fellow Moslems).
Read the words of Mohammed '...my wealth will come from the shadow of my sword...the one who will disagree with me will be persecuted...'
IS THAT A SANE PERSON TALKING OR A MEGALOMANIAC AND SOCIOPATH?
by Declic on October 13th, 2009
The so-called 'Islamic Golden Age' was entirely derative of previous learning. Modern historians agree it was merely the after-glow of the Greco-Roman world preserved by trilingual Chaldean-Aramaic Christians in Baghdad and Zoroastrian Persian scholars and translated by them into Arabic. After a few generations of this dabbling in Greek philosophy, the Islamic orthodoxy disliked the need to think and banned the study of Greek and Aramaic. Everything was reduced to studying Islamic texts and the 'Golden Age' was shut down by the caliphs. Once again, Islam kills everything it touches.
by Declic on October 13th, 2009
Dear B,
By the way Sir Winston Churchill became prime minister of the UK for the second time on the 25th of October 1951...DURING PEACETIME...remaining PM until 1955.
You should not make up facts like the nobodies you quote. That is unscholarly and undermines the credibility of whatever you say before and after. Read a 'biography' of Churchill and make up your own mind whether or not his CV is impressive.
by Declic on October 13th, 2009
you can stick to your version if you like or swallow your pride and study with an open mind what the "nobodies" are saying, I've given you some links. My quote about Churchill came from another of those "nobodies", here's the link for you to check it out http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/basics/election4/past_elections/4393271.stm
.
I leave you with the salutation of Jesus and of Muslims around the world - salam eleikom.
by borasalama on October 13th, 2009
I don't know what you consider 'my version'. I look at facts and see where they lead. The trail of Islam goes cold at the time of the Hadiths and Sira when the Koran suddenly appears out of nowhere, some 150 to 200 years after the alleged death of Mohammed. There is a strong likelihood that Hajjaj created the Koran and the stories about previous caliphs gathering the pages of the Koran are bogus. The caliphs burned the original documents and covered their tracks with loads of stories. 98% of the hadiths were said by the Moslems to be fabricated. Maybe all of the Islamic documents were fabricated.
by Declic on October 19th, 2009
wow! I thought Islam was already thoroughly well researched, and now we have your revolutionary findings saying they are all wrong! What can I say?
by borasalama on October 20th, 2009
You can say: 'I am naive and I believe everything the mullahs tell me. I believe in 'taqlid'. I am a zombie, dead from the neck up. I do not know the meaning of independent thought."
Here's what Islam's mullahs say:
“He (Mureed) should remain in submission and with respect and dignity to his expert Shaikh just as a mayyit (dead body) is in the hands of the one who gives it ghusl.”
“Annihilate all your wishes, desires and intentions. Submit yourself to your Shaikh. Do not raise the slightest objection against the taleem (teachings) of your Shaikh.”
Islam is an information-control and mind-control death cult.
by Declic on October 22nd, 2009
Hadith research is going on in Turkey, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. The whole basis of Islam is being quietly examined by scientists using modern techniques, rather than the techniques of the 7th century that you are obviously using. Most of the hadiths were fabricated. Too many hadiths are attributed to Ibn Abbas...an Abbasid dynasty favourite!
You are whistling past the graveyard. Islam cannot stand to closely examined.
Be a manly man. Do some independent research on the fabricated orgins of Islam. The mullahs have a vested interest in keeping their jobs even when they know better than anyone that Islam has no foundation in history before several generations after Mohammed. The cult was invented to legitimise the Abbasid dynasty.
by Declic on October 22nd, 2009
Dear Bora,
In a court of law, hearsay evidence is considered inconclusive and it is not allowed. Under this rule, 100% of the hadiths are inconclusive. There is no independent evidence for any of it.
Furthermore, 'hearsay' in law means 'I heard him/her say...' That is second-hand information. The hadiths are fourth...fifth...sixth hand information!!!
How can any of it be reliable? It cannot be defended as accurate. The original sources were all burned or otherwise destroyed by the blood-drenched caliphs who murdered Mohammed's family and one another. How can you trust people like that. They were devoid of conscience. They had their hands in the cookie jar.
by Declic on October 22nd, 2009
The "Islam" that you describe is not pure. I wouldn't want to be party to it, neither should any one else.
.
The highest authority in Islam is the HQ. It keeps on prodding people to think, use reason, consider, contemplate. Those who don't, preferring to follow blindly, it calls them "deaf, dumb and blind" HQ 2:171, "like animals", "nay, even worse" HQ 25:44
.
Islam means the total unconditional submission of one's will BUT such submission MUST be to God, ONLY. Islam forbids the taking of others to be our lords. This comes out clearly in HQ 3:64 "Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms between us and you:
That we worship none but God;
that we associate NO partners with him;
that we TAKE NOT, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons in place of God."
If they then turn back, say: "Bear witness that we are (the true) Muslims (those who submit their will exclusively to God)" You can see there is no room here for what you describe.
by borasalama on October 23rd, 2009
why would a all powerfull god
need submission fromhis followers
your allah has an ego problem
that is if he did exist at all
by sharpjwe on October 25th, 2009
I know, employers are like that as well. Just because they give you a pay packet they expect you to give certain hours of your day exclusively to them, what a cheek, what an ego problem, eh?
by borasalama on October 25th, 2009
Allah is 'the best of deceivers' in the Koran. A 'makr' is a deceiver.
"Allah is the best of deceivers" (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena) Koran 3:54
"None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi...Allah's deception) save folk that perish. Koran 7:99 Pickthall
"Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them" (Inna al-munafiqeena yukhadiaaoona Allaha wahuwa khadiaauhum). Koran 4:142
"If God desires to pervert you (yughwiyakum); He is your Lord, and unto Him you shall be returned.'Koran 11:34
"Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." Koran 14:4
Moslems can never be sure that Allah is not deceiving them.
by Declic on October 25th, 2009
I don't agree with all your translations, but if your intent is amusement, enjoy yourself.
.
The fact is neither you nor I have been to the hereafter or personally met anyone from there. So neither you nor I can be an eyewitness for the existence of Hell or Paradise.
.
If it's true then a Muslim is in a win win situation. He has led a good wholesome ethical life here doing what is good for himself and society and has a reward that awaits him in the hereafter
.
Even if there's no hereafter he's had a win. He's had a lifestyle that is best for him and society.
by borasalama on October 25th, 2009
Hey there Bora. It seems someone labeled the thread we were on as nonsense. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1768844
You wouldn't happen to know who it was, would ya? :D
In any event, we can pick up where we left off. :D
Start a thread I'll meet ya there.
by no_one_special on October 25th, 2009
salam eleikom Special.
.
I followed the link to your comment and found the question flagged. Must be someone with a grudge against SoulFire.
.
I think your answer took us to the end of that thread anyway. I chose to defend the image of Allah/Jehovah and throw out the offending verse, you chose to defend the verse and live with the image it gave of Jehovah/Allah.
.
I know, as usual, you got carried away and threw a few other balls onto the pitch. I didn't engage with those because that would have just caused confusion.
.
oh, btw my comment regarding your stretch - have a look at the difference in length between the old you and the new one:
noonespecial
no_one_special
by borasalama on October 26th, 2009
any discussion on islam ends up flagged on AB
in muslim country you end up dead
by sharpjwe on October 26th, 2009
Quote, " I chose to defend the image of Allah/Jehovah and throw out the offending verse"
I don't think Allah would like it when we cherry pick from his word.
Quote, " you chose to defend the verse and live with the image it gave of Jehovah/Allah."
I choose to defend him according to scriptural logic. I view in the light of the scriptures.
Quote, "I know, as usual, you got carried away and threw a few other balls onto the pitch."
I admit I should not have entered in the Muslim issues, that was irrelevant. However I did not dodge the issues and rebuttaled and asked you to counter any issue I raised including and limiting your counter to the relevant issue. :D
Oh and as for my stretch, some one asked me if it was noon especial or no one special. So I decided to "stretch" it out. :D
by no_one_special on October 26th, 2009
if there was an ancient classical textbook that was regarded as an authority on how nature works on earth, and it had a passage that said 'large drops of water rise to the skies, collect together as clouds which are blown to distant lands where they fall down again as rain' I would have no hesitation in throwing it out as doubtful or false, because it goes against the fundamental principle of gravity. Similarly I would throw out JER 13:14 as doubtful or false because it goes against a fundamental charecteristic of God that of justice. You've chosen to call yourselves Jehovah's witness, but how can you bear that sort of witness against Allah "I bear witness that Jehovah DID order that babies be put to the sword" You have taken up the flag of cleaning up the scriptures of errors like the trinity. 1 John 5:7 has been thrown out. JER 13:14 is also offensive to the image of Jehovah, and as a Muslim I would not hesitate to throw it out too.
by borasalama on October 26th, 2009
Its too bad you have to make emotional arguments and logic escapes you. You would do well to rationalize keeping in mind God is just and wont overstep justice by making emotional appeals to anyone.
He shows his love in giving us his son because justice required a sacrifice, not because he could not start over.
This is plainly taught in the bible.
Now you brought in Allah.
So let me ask you, is killing in the name of Allah permissible?
by no_one_special on October 26th, 2009
jehova
allah
buddah
jesus
ect......
alls are stories and non proven
thus to date they are lies
by sharpjwe on October 26th, 2009
Thanks for your opinion sharp.
by no_one_special on October 26th, 2009
welcome
surprised you accept differnet vies
all to your credit for a jehova witness
by sharpjwe on October 26th, 2009
I'm analysing Jer 13:14 with the same cool logic as my example of the flaw in the explanation of the formation of clouds. Where's the emotion in that?
.
I can see introduction of
1- emotion in YOUR argument that "He shows his love in giving us his son" and
2- distraction (again) in saying "you brought in Allah. So let me ask you, is killing in the name of Allah permissible?"
.
Regarding 1, I have a lot of issues with it, but we can pursue them elsewhere. Here they'll just be a distraction. All I'd say is that it shows a quality (love) that is incompatible with Jer 13:14
.
As for 2, I use Allah/Jehovah without distinction. You are bringing in distinction and 'my God/your God' exclusivity. Anyway, my answer to your question is 'yes, but it MUST be just. HQ 5:32 says the killing of a single life unjustly is like killing a whole nation'
by borasalama on October 26th, 2009
Bora is about to launch an attack.....wait for it. :D
by no_one_special on October 26th, 2009
Beat me. :D
by no_one_special on October 26th, 2009
Sharp
I love different views. Its fun taking a look at what is in peoples heads and what they feel.
by no_one_special on October 26th, 2009
Quote, "1- emotion in YOUR argument that "He shows his love in giving us his son" and"
Just stating a key and legal issue not overcome by perverting justice. Love moved him in making a legal provision.
Quote, "2- distraction (again) in saying "you brought in Allah. So let me ask you, is killing in the name of Allah permissible?"
You did bring him in and it is now relevant. :D
Quote, "As for 2, I use Allah/Jehovah without distinction."
Good now you really tie them in. :D
Quote, " but it MUST be just. HQ 5:32 says the killing of a single life unjustly is like killing a whole nation'"
So who decides what is just or unjust? HMM?
by no_one_special on October 26th, 2009
you are all anlizing the words
see the facts
the earth is not doing so well with humans
beielfs have been around for centuries
and have failed to unite and really better mankind
so that for me are facts
never mind the old book and when they say
see the world today
and act upon that with your own judgement
by sharpjwe on October 26th, 2009
God has laid down the rules, and the principle is they must be just and balanced. He gives examples to illustrate the balance - a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
by borasalama on October 26th, 2009
and kill all gay
kill all adulteres
cut the hands of thieves
no thanks
i do not like hatful gods
by sharpjwe on October 26th, 2009
I'll let Bora take that one. :D
by no_one_special on October 26th, 2009
and to come back to the question
that is why i have severe problems with Islam
thought noe with the poepel who respect me
for what i am
if they want to follow the koran and kill me
then justice should arrest those poeple for hate
by sharpjwe on October 27th, 2009
Bora, the floor is yours. :D
by no_one_special on October 27th, 2009
when to the point silence
for they know they are hatefull in the text
nothing can hide the hate in the koran
by sharpjwe on October 27th, 2009
Special your last question to me was "So who decides what is just or unjust? HMM?"
.
My response was "God has laid down the rules, and the principle is they must be just and balanced. He gives examples to illustrate the balance - a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
.
So, between the two of us, mine was the last shot and the ball is now in your court :)
by borasalama on October 27th, 2009
So Allah? And if Allah says to kill you will not question it?
by no_one_special on October 27th, 2009
Special - I earlier quoted the fundamental rule in HQ 5:32 which says the killing of a single life unjustly is like killing a whole nation.
.
Now you ask what "if Allah SAYS to kill"? What do you mean by "SAYS". As I did repeat twice before, "God HAS laid down the rules, and the principle is they (our actions) MUST BE JUST and BALANCED. He gives examples to illustrate the balance - a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"
by borasalama on October 28th, 2009
You have misunderstood or I have been unclear.
What I am saying is, what constitutes an unjust killing? Is it not according to Allah's definition? If it is, it is by Allah's word. If it is by Allah's definition, would you question it?
The eye for an eye is not the limit, obviously. Since in Islam it is permissible to kill infidels. Or am I totally off on that?
Please correct me where I am wrong.
by no_one_special on October 28th, 2009
A Muslim that does not confine himself to what Jehovah says in the HQ is not a Muslim.
.
Under normal, peacetime, conditions the only justification for taking a life is when a crime that carries the death penalty has been committed, like murder. Jehovah says, in the HQ, that if you take a life without such justification then it is as if you have killed a whole nation.
.
I hope that helped.
by borasalama on October 28th, 2009
Things were getting a bit confused on the other thread and you asked me to repeat my point elsewhere. So here they are:
.
It appears to me that you are saying if I committed a crime as a grandfather, say looting, then
.
1- because my sons were adults and did not take part in the looting they would neither carry the charge nor be expected to pay the price
.
2- However, if I was just starting a family at the time of my crime both my infants and my babies would be held equally guilty with me and would have to pay the same penalty
.
3- And if I was yet without family when I looted then all the children I subsequently have and all the generations thereafter will be equally guilty of my crime and be expected to pay the same penalty.
.
Is that what you were trying to say?
by borasalama on October 28th, 2009
Looting is not a crime against God in the sense that you are directly standing in oppositino to him. Yes one breaks a law of his but it is out of selfish motives and sinful weak mind and flesh but not necasarly out of spite toward God.
There are different degrees of punishment depending on the offense.
So 1. is a no.
2. would be a no.
3. would also be a no since one already has inherited sin.
Things change by crime and intent. Both.
by no_one_special on October 28th, 2009
sorry Special, I was not thinking about being judged by God but by my fellow men. Let's say looting IS a serious crime and carries a six-month prison sentence. There is no doubt that I, and ONLY I, committed the crime. You are the MOST JUST judge. What I want to know is APART FROM ME who else would you send to prison in each of the 3 cases below:
.
1- I am a grandfather but neither my children nor their children took any part in the looting
.
2- I am a father with an infant and a baby
.
3- I am yet without any children but predictions are that I will have many children and grandchildren for many generations after me
by borasalama on October 28th, 2009
Homosexual acts are condemned as unnatural. (Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?) 7:80-81
Male homosexual activities are condemned as unnatural. 26:165-6
Male homosexuals commit abominations and act senselessly. 27:54-55
Male homosexuals acts are condemned as unnatural. 29:28-29
4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. I
by sharpjwe on October 28th, 2009
If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91
Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 4:14
For the disbelievers and those who make a last-minute conversion, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:18
"We shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah." 4:30
For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 4:37
by sharpjwe on October 28th, 2009
Bora
Lets pretend picking my nose IS a serious crime. Not. :D
Bora you are trying to compare apples to oranges in order to make the answers sound bad.
;)
by no_one_special on October 28th, 2009
I think you're having to stop. That's fine by me. Well, at least you now understand why I can accept Ezekiel 18:20 as being from Allah but not Jeremiah 13:14.
.
Anyway, TY for explaining what you could of your faith to me. Please do come back if you find a way out of our present difficulty. Till then, I leave you with the salutation of Jesus which is curiously avoided by those who claim he died for them, but is popular amongst Muslims - salam eleikom.
by borasalama on October 28th, 2009
You assume incorrectly. We can continue.
Bora, it is if I said, "lets say looting is IS a serious crime. Would Allah OK the killing of looters?"
You see, you are trying to straw man me. If I said, "if someone makes a great offense against Allah should Allah have him killed?" That would be different since the punishment would not seem harsh.
So give a relevant example please. :D
by no_one_special on October 30th, 2009
glad you're back Special, but I'd rather you didn't come back until you had a bit more time on your hands. That way you'll be able to give more time to understanding my argument and we'd have a better discussion. I made sure I was excluding God from my looting example, and you're responding as if I had included God in it.
.
I agree we could argue that "if someone makes a great offense against Alllah" it would be just if Allah had him killed However, how could it be just if Allah had the offender's infsnts and babies killed also.
by borasalama on October 30th, 2009
Thanks Bora for noticing I have limited time. :D
I appreciate that believe it or not.
I will get back to you.
by no_one_special on October 30th, 2009
BoraSalama wrote: 'a Muslim...has led a good wholesome ethical life here doing what is good for himself and society'
-depriving infidels of human rights, polygamy, child marriage, female mutilation, jihad, suicide bombings, slavery, sex with slaves, muta marriage, mysar marriage, taqiyya, gender discrimination, beheading, crucifixion, stoning, alternate amputation, impossibility of proving rape...none of the above are 'ethical' or 'good' for society. Islam serves the purposes of predatory Moslem males...alpha males.
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
As you can see Declic, I am not a Muslim and in fact Bora and I have gone round and round in thread after thread.
However, may I ask you, is what you are saying Muslim or is it just the culture.
What I mean is, if what you are saying is permissible according to the HQ then this is wrong.
But if it is not permissible, it is an issue of culture and not Islam.
I do know that some of what you are saying is in Sharia law or hinted at in the HQ but you posted quite a bit.
Can you please clarify?
by no_one_special on October 30th, 2009
i offend all non exixtant gods
and they have no power at all
by sharpjwe on October 30th, 2009
Sharia is based on three sources: Koran, Hadiths and pre-Islamic Arab customs. The principle concern of all Islamic texts is to bring the infidels (and women) under the control of Moslem alpha men.
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
Dear NOS,
I quote from the earliest texts of Islam (the originals contained materials the Caliphs didn't want others to see...so they burned them). Moslem leaders still like burning books. I quote from authoritative primary Islam and the leading Islamic leaders whose authority cannot be denied. Politicians deliberately confuse people with airbrushed, New Age Islam. This is mere fantasy. If you want chapter and verse, I can provide it. Islam is veiled behind several veils. The mullahs don't want you (or their followers) to look behind the veils. Islamic leaders want complete information control. That is why they hate the Internet.
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
I understand. However, it is like trying to stick the bible with certain Jewish practices that although originate or are attributed to the Jews, have in reality nothing to do with the bible itself.
Like the oral traditions and such of Jews. It is of Jews obviously but not scriptural.
by no_one_special on October 31st, 2009
Oh I agree with your last statement. I just feel that, to an extent, it is a flaw of man and religion is merely used as a means to control. By the way I am religious for the record.
I am just careful to attribute things to whom it rightfully should be attributed. In this instance the HQ should be examined and not what the leaders practice or preach.
by no_one_special on October 31st, 2009
One cannot say that what happens in Muslim countries is because Islam is evil. It is the fault of the leaders. However, if in the HQ things are found that not only permit atrocities toward its subjects but condones it, then we have a problem with the HQ.
I do not feel the HQ is the word of God by the way.
by no_one_special on October 31st, 2009
ISLAM CANNOT BE CHANGED...
The doors of interpretation of Islamic scriptures were closed around 1111 A.D. After that anyone who disagrees is said to be an apostate and the death sentence applies to them. That is fact, not my opinion.
Sahih Bukhari Vol. 9: Book 88: ahadith 174 Far removed from mercy are those who change the religion of Islam after me!
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
Dear NOS,
You seem to be fine person, but I don't believe you have understood: Moslems are painted into the corner and cannot get out it without destroying Islam entirely.
Islam cannot be reformed without changing the Koran, the Hadiths and the Sira. Given that the Koran is the letter-perfect words of Allah, it cannot be changed. As well, since interpretation is closed, Islam cannot be reformed. The only option is to get rid of Islam, just like modern civilisation rejected slavery, cannibalism, repression of women, and cruel and unusual punishments like the Islamic practices of beheading, crucifixion and alternate amputation. Islam is a 7th century tribal cult preoccupied with harems and camels...It is totally out of step with modernity.
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
I agree that the culture is.
Can you provide Surahs perhaps?
I just don't believe all Muslim's are bad. I am a Christian but that does not mean I think Muslim people are evil.
With much respect to Bora and all Muslims, I honestly believe the HQ is the result of what the bible said, false prophets. But the people are victims their leaders.
In some respects by the HQ as well. So this is why I ask for Surahs.
by no_one_special on October 31st, 2009
Dear NOS,
Somewhere around the year 730 AD, the Koran suddenly came into existence and more than half a million hadiths (reports)were written in the next 100 years to explain it (the Koran cannot be interpreted without the hadiths). The Koran has no chronology or apparent order or context to it and makes no sense on its own. The Koran repeats over and over 'Allah hates the Infidels and wants to hurt them.' Read it and you will understand. I believe the Koran was made confusing on purpose.
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
It appears to more and more scholars that Islam was fabricated by the Caliphs (especially the Abbasid Dynasty) to justify their political power. Islam gave them the justification for acquiring a world empire. It is interesting that the Koran claims Alexander the Great as a Moslem (Alexander was a pagan). Alexander was the most successful conqueror up that point and caliphs were hoping to exceed him.
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
Dear NOS,
Most of Islam is not in the Koran. No prayers or ceremonies are in the Koran, no description of how to be a Moslem. Most of the Koran (63%) is hatred and insults directed at infidels. The hadiths and the official biography of Mohammed are companion texts to the Koran. The three books together are inseparable. Most of Islam is actually in the Hadiths and Sira. The Koran's main argument is that the infidels should be conquered and then sent to hell. The Hadiths and Sira show Moslems the techniques Mohammed used: torture, slavery, contract murders, lying, pillaging, rape, genocide. There is no one shot quick book to give you all this knowledge. It will take a year for you to confirm everything I am writing here.
by Declic on October 31st, 2009
Can you elaborate on the Hadiths?
by no_one_special on October 31st, 2009
Declic loves to hate Islam, and maybe Muslims too.
.
One could write chapters, or even books on some of the many items he has included in his long list of accusations against Islam and Muslims. I wont bother to even start.
.
There isn't anything in the universe, apart from a miracle from God, that can shift Declic from hatred of Islam and Muslims to love of Islam and Muslims.
.
However, despite much in the media, internet, and many people like Declic engaged in spreading their hatred of Islam (Declic has posted FOURTEEN answers to this question alone) and despite the actions of some Muslims that are damaging the image of Islam, many people who objectively study Islam like it so much they become Muslims, and most of the converts are women.
.
Declic may put a lot of effort ito spreadig hatred of Islam, but the mod cons he's enjoying are based on the invaluable contributions of Muslims, even the numerals he uses are most likely to be Arabic, not Roman.
by borasalama on October 31st, 2009
Bora can you elaborate on the Hadiths?
by no_one_special on November 1st, 2009
Special, we have an unfinished discussion thread going which you said you'd come back to when you had a bit more time on your hands. I don't think it would be wise to start another thread between us, on Hadiths or anything else, before we conclude on the open one.
by borasalama on November 1st, 2009
You are correct Bora.
by no_one_special on November 2nd, 2009
So where were we again? LOL! Ready bora?
by no_one_special on May 3rd, 2010
by Djinn on October 11th, 2009
Well in this area just because it's not Christian. I had a friend come visit me from China and a local asked him what religion he was. His English wasn't so good so he instinctively said "jidujiao". The woman went off on him about how he was gonna burn in hell for not being Christian blah blah blah, once I had enough I told her, "you silly judgmental bible thumper jidujiao is Christian in Chinese he just couldn't say it in English!" she didn't even apologize. +2
Applying the Golden Rule is hard work and requires determined effort. None of us is perfect.
by Declic on October 11th, 2009
sure christians are the same
does that disculp the muslims
all religions have hate in them
so i am the same toa ll religion
i do not respect religions for they are hate
by sharpjwe on October 11th, 2009
'Love your neighbour as yourself.'
'Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.'
That is religion...Judaism and Christianity, but not Islam. Islam says, Love Moslems and hate infidels. Islam supports religious discrimination and religious apartheid, as well as political subjugation of anyone who isn't Moslem.
I believe in the Golden Rule and democracy and freedom of expression for all. Islam wants freedom of expression for the Islamic dictator only.
Be objective, Sharp! There is a big difference.
by Declic on October 12th, 2009
Dear Sharp, Be rational. Look up 'AL WALAA WAL BARAA'.
No other religion has a doctrine like that.
Al Walaa wal Baraa is the SECOND MOST IMPORTANT DOCTRINE IN ISLAM. It is one of the THREE FUNDAMENTALS OF ISLAMIC FAITH (usul ud deen). LOOK IT UP. Be scientific.
by Declic on October 12th, 2009
scientific with unproven religious writiings
who is kidding who !
i said i hate religions
but love all poeple
by sharpjwe on October 13th, 2009
Dear Sharp, I wish you would leave the word 'hate' out of your vocabulary. Personally, I try to use moderate speech 'disagree', 'avoid', 'have a problem with', 'deplore'. 'What the world needs now is love, sweet love...'
Islam actually preaches active hate of the infidels...that is what we are discussing. The doctrine of 'Al-Walaa wal-Baraa' (total religious apartheid and political repression) is exclusively found in Islam.
While you don't have to be a member of a religion to practice the Golden Rule, it does come from the Jewish and Hindu traditions, but was obliterated from Islam by Mohammed.
by Declic on October 19th, 2009
ok declic
i agree with you hate should be abolished
and i msut apologive for the wording
but remember
i always love humans
thnaks for you wise advice
with regards john sharp
by sharpjwe on October 22nd, 2009
Everyone but Moslems have the option of removing hate from their own heart...one person at a time.
Moslems are ordered by Allah in the Koran to hate the people he hates, to kill and enslave them.
by Declic on October 25th, 2009
Dear Sharp,
By the way, when I say, 'Be scientific', I mean realise you are not infallible. Science examines evidence BEFORE interpreting it. You are doing the reverse, with a lot of righteous anger. We can all be tragically mistaken. Even me. ;-) Loving others means being tolerant and allowing them the right to be wrong while giving them unconditional acceptance. Moslems can't do that. They believe they are infallible giving them the right to kill their critics.
by Declic on October 25th, 2009
Thanks for your answer, Djinn. Funny story. :D
by Theby on November 28th, 2009
well i make mistakes
but iam not blinded by religions
and speak for myself
by sharpjwe on December 6th, 2009
by raynorshine on January 5th, 2009
It is not unlike the fear and hatred of some Muslims towards Christians and Jews we in the West hear about. Much of it is hype and politically motivated, as the other answerer stated, based in fear, ignorance and misinformation. Muslims are told in the Quran how to deal with Christians and Jews (e.g. tolerantly), however Christians do not receive any such directions because, of course Islam was established well after its foundations were established. Extreme Christians might believe that Islam is the fruit of the anti-Christ and hate it for that reason. It is sort of sad that any of this sort of hate mongering is done in the name of God when His message has always been to bring us peace.
I AGREE, except of course that they fear the west not the faiths typically, that is more to do with the interference and support the west shows to the opressors in the Middle East, and just to clarify I mean that they support brutal regimes and have activly worked to avoid democracy and advances for the lower classes in order to maintain control over the resources. You are 100% right when you say it is political, there are arab Jews and Christians and they are not feared.
by AMIRA-NICHOLLE on January 5th, 2009
You are both right. I agree wholeheartedly. Salaam
by Theby on January 6th, 2009
All the tolerant Meccan verses were abrogated and are of no effect.
by Declic on January 6th, 2009
Please tell us how you know this and who was responsible for these changes. My understanding is that Muslims are very careful about any changes to the Quran so if there were changes they should be well documented. Muslims are encouraged to read their Most Holy Book in Arabic so they can glean as much as possible from its original language. Maintaining the original wording has not been as clear an objective of Christians and the Bible of which there have been over 1200 editions with several thousand changes. If you want documentation on this, please just google "Bible version changes editions".
by raynorshine on January 6th, 2009
The abrogation of "tolerant" verses in the Koran is not speculation, but a solid, indisputable fact accepted by the overwhelming majority of Islamic scholars. Fewer things are more certain in Islam. Any Moslem who denies this is committing a "taqiyya", a sanctified lie uttered to deceive the filthy, disgusting kufaar whom Allaah despises. The Golden Rule does not exist in Islam. Moslems laugh at the filthy kufaar when they are naive and vulnerable to taqiyya.
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/verses.htm
http://ricgator.wordpress.com/2008/06/22/abrogation-and-the-koran/
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/abrogation-and-the-koran/
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-islam&tid=5713
by Declic on January 9th, 2009
Well, that was informative. I will look into it some more and talk with some Muslem friends about it. It would be interesting to here a counter argument here from a Muslem. It is a shame that many Christians do not apply the same abrogation concept to the laws of the Old and New Testaments, or that when they do it is so selective. I suppose this is a multi-faith issue of people seeing what they want to in scripture.
by raynorshine on January 9th, 2009
"taqiyya" Is a practice of Shia Muslims only, they make up only 10-15% of the Muslim world, using their doctrine to condemn all Muslims is as useless and foolish as using the acts of Terror as evidence against our faith.
There is scholarly debate over certain verses abrogation however there are no serious scholars who abrogate entire Surahs or who feel the allowances for self defense abrogate the verses telling us to live peaceful or to not be aggressors. In fact the majority of the limitations on violence are found with the allowances, they come together and certainly do not abrogate themselves.
by AMIRA-NICHOLLE on January 9th, 2009
Amira, one of the problems that this sort of issue points out is the lack of a centralized authority for interpretation of your Holy Book. I believe for Sunni Muslims this became an issue with the demise of the Califfs (sp) when the Ottoman Empitre collapsed at the beginning of the 20th century. Since the Catholic/Protestant split in Christianity they have increasingly had a simillar problem. Scholarly endvors are fine, but unfortunately the fanatics in all faiths are seldom scholarly, nor do they attempt to appeal to the informed. This is where the words of our scriptures are used against the Word, something which is contrary to the intent of the Word in my belief.
by raynorshine on January 9th, 2009
Again I am in complete agreement with you, this is also why you hear of the calipha movement wanting a return to a centralized authority, although I don't believe the Ummah is united enough to support this as of now I do think in the future this maybe the only way to stop the abuse of Islam.
by AMIRA-NICHOLLE on January 12th, 2009
raynor, Christians did receive these directions: John 2: Don't associate with non-Christians. Don't receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them.
by Theby on September 23rd, 2009
Absolute poppy-cock! http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+2&version=NIV
by Bohemian is back on December 10th, 2009
by Declic on November 28th, 2008
Dear AMIRA-NICHOLLE,
You are making a straw man and knocking him down. No one wishes to "make it appear" that Moslems are bloodthirsty. We merely quote the bloodthirsty verses from the Koran, Hadiths and the mullahs, imams and ayatollahs who are the authentic sources of Islam. They do not say, "Love the kufar!" They say "Kill the kufar!"
"The purest joy in Islam is to kill and be killed for Allah." - Ayatollah Khomeini
“Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]….Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other ayahs and hadiths urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”
-Ayatollah Khomeini
"The purest joy in Islam is to kill..." How do you relate that to the Golden Rule?
Thank you Declic, Muslims can deny it all they like but the truth must be told. Islam is a violent and bloodthirsty religion created and expanded upon a distorted view of Judaism and Christianity by a self-professed paedophile prophet of Allah...that dungheap Mo the madman. Cheers
by Mystical on November 29th, 2008
Shame on you, Mystical. When you are looking up from the bowels of hell, just remember what you said.
by Theby on December 23rd, 2008
Thebyann Aug, 13 2008 at 09:09 PM
I am also ending my comments on these Islamic threads. I have defended Islam. I believe in Islam. THe negative comments are not (for me) worth commenting on anymore.
by Schonberg on January 6th, 2009
Dear Ann, Don't hide the cruelty of Islam from yourself, its hatred of women and the infidels. Mohammed made this all up and lured poor young men by promising them sex, money and butchery. No god created this evil cult. Please be honest with yourself. Islam preaches hate 'Al Walaa wal Baraa' and not the Golden Rule. You have left the Golden Rule in Christianity and turned your face towards the darkness.
by Declic on December 30th, 2009
by Declic on November 27th, 2008
Dear Hypatia, I appreciate your point that religion is used to motivate people to do evil. But that is confusing cause and effect. This fallacy in thinking is called "post hoc ergo propter hoc". If people who developed cancer all lived near a red mail box, we should not conclude that red mail boxes cause cancer!
There is zero connection between the Golden Rule and murder, or the Buddhist teaching of compassion, or the Hindu idea of not harming any living thing. There is, however, a direct connection between jihad and terrorism. Good Moslems go on jihad in order to imitate their idol Mohammed, who murdered, had killed, raped, and committed genocide and ethnic cleansing. When a Moslem does these things in the name of Allah, it is a pious act that guarantees them the first place in paradise.
When Christians disobey the Golden Rule, they are denying the central commandment of their religion.
There is no need for people to appeal to religion for an excuse for lust, greed, dominance, pride or sadism.
These things come to people naturally, but when a sociopathic personality like Adolf Hitler comes onto the scene, they will say or do whatever is effective to confuse and manipulate people. In the beginning, Hitler told many lies, he said a Christian should hate Jews. Then he murdered millions of Christians, because so many of them opposed him. However, Hitler loved Islam. Moslems proudly wore the nazi uniform in special Islamic regiments.
No one has used the Buddhist doctrine of compassion to wage war, no Hindus have claimed that respect for all living things means starting a world war, but Islamic dictators, especially in Iran, have called for a world war to destroy Israel and usher in the universal world-wide Islamic state.
No one disagrees that there are many blots on history caused by the perverted use of religion to support the power of powerful families!
What we are discussing here is the official role jihad plays in the Islamic political doctrine of world supremacy.
Dear Declic. Welcome to AB, you are a real gentleman, wise and very knowledgeable. I wish there were more ABaggers as yourself, you'll find there are not that many. I agree with your point. When I posed my opinion, I purposely wrote as an ironic question, and was precise to mention the three monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). They are not the same, but their deeds don't go far from each other. IMHO that is because religions are complex cultural objects and as such reflect the nature of the peoples who craft them, their time, environment and view of their world. I know Christianity (Roman catholicism) from the inside and Judaism for close contact with dear members of it, what you may agree with me is that the religious fact is not reduced to sacred writings or the teachings of leaders. None of those peoples were particularly peaceful. Peaceful cultures were smashed, they are not here to tell the story.
by Hypatia on November 27th, 2008
Declic's words are truly wise and he quotes the Qu'ran as it is written.The fanatics like BIG BANG BYANN do not like what he posts and that is why she attacks him.
by Schonberg on November 27th, 2008
Dear Dirty Ninja, The fanatics like her always will always take the cowardly way out and do things by stealth. They can never face their enemies face to face because they know they will always lose. They have tried to destroy Israel with their large armies but she beat them in battle and sent them scurrying home with their tails between their legs. They know that they will never beat us on the battlefield’so they keep carrying out atrocities just like the ones they carried out in Mombai yesterday.Good will always conquer evil and we will never surrender to fanatical minded people.
by Schonberg on November 27th, 2008
Yes, Good will eventually conquer evil. Bush being gone is a start.
by Theby on December 23rd, 2008
by Gone. on November 24th, 2008
We're not ignorant of islam. And we hate it because a lot of muslims strap bombs to themselves and walk into shopping centres and blow themselves and innocent people up. They fly planes into towers. They bomb trains and busses. They fire bomb airports. So there's no ignorance here. And when I keep hearing and seeing this on the news, I hate the islamic religion even more.
Yes it is the fanatical Muslims that are giving peace loving Muslims a bad name.I have Muslim friends who say exactly the same.They too object to the placing of bombs to kill innocent people,and they were alarmed when those fanatics flew the two planes into the twin towers.The peace loving Muslim community in the UK are now exposing these fanatics as they are sick and tired of them destroying their reputations.
by Schonberg on November 24th, 2008
I to live in the UK and have never heard any islamic leaders speaking out against what the others are doing.
by Gone. on November 24th, 2008
I know for a fact that they are informing on the fanatics in their commuinities.
by Schonberg on November 24th, 2008
Dirty, and the yankee marines walked into Iraq and said "hello" to all the innocents. You are a hypocrite.
by Theby on November 27th, 2008
I am a hypocrite??? You don't know me and you don't even no what my views are. Yet you make assumptions about me and you downrate me in a cowardly manner. If you have something to say concerning my comments then lets discuss it.
by Gone. on November 27th, 2008
You say in your "About Me" on your profile you will give anyone a fair go. I don't see that you've done that here so far.
by Gone. on November 27th, 2008
Dear BING BANG BYANN you are already under 24 hour surveillance will you never learn!!!!
by Schonberg on November 27th, 2008
We're not ignorant of Christianity, we hate it because they invade Muslim countries on pathetic pretexts.
by Theby on December 23rd, 2008
Your starting to crack up as your now replying to month old posts.
by Schonberg on December 23rd, 2008
On the contrary, I am just perusing old posts for something to do. Besides you know I could never pass up an opportunity to insult you.
by Theby on December 23rd, 2008
Hear, O Yisrael, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One."*
"Blessed is the name of the glory of His kingdom forever and ever."
by Schonberg on December 23rd, 2008
Yes, I love OUR God so much.
by Theby on January 2nd, 2009
Hear, O Yisrael, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One."*
"Blessed is the name of the glory of His kingdom forever and ever." Long live Israel.
by Schonberg on January 2nd, 2009
It will not be Israel for long.
by Theby on February 20th, 2009
The rabid bitch doth lick her wounds.
by Schonberg on February 20th, 2009
My, we are poetic this morning.
by Theby on February 20th, 2009
Now that is definitely one of my originals.
by Schonberg on February 20th, 2009
Oh, I assumed you were referring to Israel and was going to say you are using the wrong tense. It should be, "the rabid bitch will lick her wounds."
by Theby on February 20th, 2009
by mellow_girl on November 24th, 2008
a lot people are afraid of what they don't know.
by Starmaster on August 3rd, 2008
Unfortunately, it is part of human nature to be afraid of things that seem threatening to us and then that same fear turns into hatred. Prejudice and ignorance feeds the concept that "ALL people "like that" are terrorists", so we hate them even when Muslims are a world community of millions of decent hard working and peaceful human beings. Education should deal and act upon the eradication of those bad ideas and concepts.
ABush's America is the one who wants to eradicate us. Bush would not allow any education about Islam in American schools. He used Bin Laden during the Afghan war against the Russians and now he wants to kill him and the mujahadeen because he is threatened by them. He fears an Islamic Nation. ramey, thank you for your comments but your last sentence will never happen. Asalaam Aleikom.
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
Thanks for your words. I live in a small town here in Puerto Rico and most of the small businesses in the downtown area are owned by Arab or other Middle Eastern businessmen. They are helping our economy to stay afloat during these hard times.
by Starmaster on August 3rd, 2008
It is so great to hear that! I have heard that Puerto Rico is beautiful and I would love to visit one day. In fact an ABer asked the other day "Where would you love to be living?" and my answer was Puerto Rico. The economy is hitting everyone hard at the moment. Even here is Australia we are feeling the pinch. May God bless you.
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
Thanks for your words, but the future of the economy doesn't look any good in this area. Most economists are very concerned about it... Anyway, thanks again!
by Starmaster on August 9th, 2008
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
Someone who hated Islam talks for about 10 minutes on this youtube posting. Unfortunately embedding of the video has been disabled but if you follow the link it should take you to it. Listen to her and see what you make of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fsz73clcWc&feature=related
Thanks again, borasalama
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
you're welcome Theby. btw the answers keep changing their number depending on how many points they gain/lose. If you want to refer anyone to an answer better to copy and paste the date/time posted which you'll find next to the name of the contributor or better still copy and paste the url which will then appear as a direct link to the answer.
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
Once again, thank you for the video and your kind advice. The video is fantastic and I shall be sending it to some people I know that will most probably not want to receive it!
by Theby on August 4th, 2008
hope they benefit from it insha Allah
by borasalama on August 4th, 2008
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
It may not be strictly correct to say these people are “completely ignorant” about Islam because it might imply to some that they haven’t even heard of the word Islam. What is more likely is that they’ve made hostile associations in their minds with the word Islam.
Once that happens it becomes a vicious circle. They become receptive to information that confirms the associations they have made, and they feed off like-minded people and the media, which is full of negative associations about Islam. Thus the negative images and hate of Islam become stronger and stronger.
These people then start mocking, provoking and actively campaigning against Islam. The hate becomes so widespread and intense that even the self-styled champions of democracy are prepared to ditch certain principles of democracy lest any element of Islam creeps into public life. Candidates have to repeatedly assure potential voters that they have nothing to do with Islam if they want to stand any chance of election. Even people in Muslim countries get penalised if democracy there brings in a pro-Islamic government.
But God works in mysterious ways. Sometimes those who go far down the path of strong hatred against Islam end up becoming strong Muslim themselves. Omar's hatred built up until he could hold it back no more and, sword in hand, he went out to kill Mohammed. Fourteen centuries have gone and he's still remembered as a strong Muslim the second leader, after Mohammed, of the rapidly growing Muslim community. In the clip below is an example from our own time.
.
Did you not hear what Hilary Clinton said? "We will obliterate Islam." It was part of one of her speaches. I saw it on TV here in Australia.
by Theby on August 3rd, 2008
TY. No I wasn't aware of that. I hope someone puts that on youtube for all to see. Now what hope of peace is there if someone in such a powerful position has thoughts like that. That's trying to overdo Hitler many times over.
by borasalama on August 3rd, 2008
So true, borasalama.
by Theby on August 4th, 2008
by killdrphil - reasonable for a madman on August 2nd, 2008
They don't know how to make distinctions.
by kanara on July 28th, 2008
i think in the states, islam, or the term mulsum, has been used to equqate terrorisim. its totally unfair and i think it proves that unless you fit into the cookie cutter look and christian american mold you are seen as a threat. the feelings were always there, but 911 brought it to the forefront.
i think people also want somwone to blame because ther are so many theories about the attacks and they need a scapegoat so they can still belive in their government.
just my opinion.
i have lots of respect for the dicipline it takes to pratice islam.
by zeuspoop on December 7th, 2009
As could people who learn more about most religions. You take what you need and adapt your thinking to fit your beliefs within said religion. People have killed and been killed for "God" under any name since before relgion was a word or idea. To say that Islam is "a bad thing" is selling it and yourself short. It ALL boils down to faith and how we as people use the knowledge and system of beliefs we have at our disposal! They (religions) could all be bad or all be good it's up to the individual to make the right choice!
Dear Z, Faith in Islam is focussed on Mohammed, not Allah. Over 83% of Islamic writings are about Mohammed. Under 17% is about Allah. Mohammed is Islam. To learn about Mohammed you need to study the Sira, his official biography. Most of a Moslem's life is spent imitating Mohammed and performing his obsessive-compusive rituals. This lifestyle is not so much a life of prayer, but a series of weird superstitions, like not entering a room with your left foot or avoiding music or drinking camel urine or eating dates for serious health problems.
Remember that women are worth half of a man and that most of the people in hell are women because they disobeyed their husband.
There has to be a breaking point where weirdness and offensive doctrines meet logic and modernity. This breaking point is called cognitive dissonance. Moslems are quietly dropping out because of this.
by Declic on December 7th, 2009
Z, Thanks for your great answer. +6 BTW, I am Islamic, Declic is not. Faith in Islam is focussed on Allah, afterall, we believe he cited the Holy Qur'an. Muhammad (pbuh) was His messenger. I have never heard of anyone drinking camel urine. Women are to be treated with respect. Any mistreatment of women is cultural, not religious. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. It is the fastest growing religion on earth whereas Catholicism has people leaving in droves. The pope has coined this as "the bleeding." Con'd
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
I am sure you did not wish to have my information but I feel bound to correct all lies told by non-Muslims. Salaam Aleykom.
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
by Ambassador of Love on December 3rd, 2009
I'm not Muslim and I don't hate Islam ..
Dear Ambassador of Love: I like your handle. I wish all Moslems became ambassadors of brotherly love instead of emissaries of hatred (the essential core Islamic doctrine called al-Walaa wal-Baraa). I wish I were making that up. Don't believe me. Check it out yourself. Islam is the source of the hatred. They project Mohammed's hatred on 'the other'...while most non-Moslems are totally indifferent until Moslems start to act violently.
by Declic on December 3rd, 2009
In fact , I love him . He was a great man . . I read much about him and about his great history .. I really believe the world need Muhammad ..
by Ambassador of Love on December 4th, 2009
It is obvious you have not read the Sira and paid attention to the cruelty in it. There is no 'love' in the Sira. The Sira is the most reliable source of information on Mohammed. You have been taught to love an air-brushed made-up character, not the real Mohammed.
by Declic on December 4th, 2009
In the Sira of Ibn Ishaq, we see...
"In order to gain his ends he (Muhammad) recoils from no expedient, and he approves of similar unscrupulousness on the part of his adherents, when exercised in his interest. He profits utmost from the chivalry of the Meccans, but rarely requites it with the like... For whatever he does he is prepared to plead the express authorization of the deity. It is, however, impossible to find any doctrine which he is not prepared to abandon in order to secure a political end."
by Declic on December 4th, 2009
Narrated Ibn 'Umar: The Prophet said, "MY LIVELIHOOD IS UNDER THE SHADE OF MY SPEAR, FROM WAR BOOTY."
Ishaq:316 “Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive.”Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234:
Narrated Abu Qilaba
He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them."
by Declic on December 4th, 2009
Which of the above verses is your favourite? Which of these verses makes you LOVE Mohammed the most?
by Declic on December 4th, 2009
Mohammed recuse the girls from alwaad (before Islam Arab buried girl in a hole until she die ) .. And he called for the emancipation of slaves. He was saying that black and white man are seem , the master and slave are seem no one butter then other except in faith . He was good with orphans . He called for freedom. Muhammad called for honoring to parents .He Promised to his friends and kept his promise.. Mohammad called be good with your neighbor, even if your neighbor was your enemy.. He called to worship only God . And left idols. Therefore, Muhammad was a great man .
by Ambassador of Love on December 4th, 2009
Declic, it's actually a little pointless conversing with this person. For someone "not Muslim" he's doing a fair job as presenting himself as a hardcore extremist one in some instances.
Gotta like his answer here: http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/8447970
I think it explains loads. Then there's an attempt by myself here: http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/8447810 to answer a question and well...you see the result.
by scubabob on December 4th, 2009
Unfortunately, you did not understand me well, I call for love but I hate the people who hate love. In fact, fanatics Jewish hate love and kill kids and rape women and also believe ( non Jew ) are animal that so funny . That mean you believe Christian and Muslim are animal .
by Ambassador of Love on December 4th, 2009
You are lumping an entire group of people into one stereotype based on your own perception of reality. Listen to yourself...you're a bigot. How about I say this. " All muslims hate love and kill kids and rape women". Now that the shoe is on the other foot, how do you like that? Am I being racist for saying that? Hell yes. You either really have no clue outside of your fantasy world or are indeed the thing you propose that others are. Either makes it clear that you are a waste of human tissue.
by scubabob on December 4th, 2009
If I met a one good Jew maybe I change my thought about Jews. But I want to ask you what do you think a bout Zionists ?
by Ambassador of Love on December 4th, 2009
Thoughts? You don't have any thoughts. You're consumed with hatred and not worth my time.
by scubabob on December 4th, 2009
Dear Ambassador of Love,
Are you an ambassador of Jew hatred? Whose side would you have taken in 1939?
by Declic on December 7th, 2009
AOL, You love Mohammed and hate Jews, just like Mohammed. Mohammed based his new religion on slavery. Slavery is good. A Moslem should get as many as possible in this world and the next. Mohammed called black people 'raisin heads'...nice compliment, eh? Mohammed made adopting orphans illegal and took his adopted son's wife away from him.
by Declic on December 7th, 2009
Mohammed enslaved thousands for profit and sex slavery. Mohammed told Moslems to be 'merciful' to Moslems and 'harsh' with the infidels. Double standards. Mohammed said honour your parents only if they are Moslems, otherwise you can kill them if they get on your nerves. Mohammed told Moslems to tell the truth to one another, but lie to infidels. Mohammed kissed the moon rock, an idol. Mohammed said he owned the earth and the universe was made for him. He was a great megalomaniac.
Whose side would you have taken in 1939?
by Declic on December 7th, 2009
Dear AOL,
I do not understand how you can be a member of death cult that preaches such hatred of most of the earth and call this 'love'.
You are perverting language and your thinking has been distorted by the mullahs. They are using you.
by Declic on December 7th, 2009
Thank you, AoL. I appreciate your open mind. You are right. Muhammad (pbuh) was a great statesman, philosopher, mentor, and teacher to name just a few. Ghandi called him, "...the greatest man whoever lived." Salaam Aleykom
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
“The prophet did not die till all women were permitted him” (Kitab Al Tabaqat Al Kubra, v.8, 194)
-Mohammed was the greatest playboy.
by Declic on December 25th, 2009
Brother Declic : Why don't you care a bout your( brothers and your sisters) Christian Palistinian
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/christians.html
you know what until now there are Christian HATE jew
http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/WhyWeHateJews2.htm
and tell what i like about Muslims they care about each other .
by Ambassador of Love on February 10th, 2010
by Dream-On on November 30th, 2009
people don't understand that (us) mu slims
don't take terrorist as a part of us
some people don't like homo's
they take it as a mistake, we take those people like that also
I REPEAT! terrorists are not Muslim!
they got Islam all wrong!
i am a Muslim, and i love christian people and jue and everyone as a brother.. am not like any typical Muslim ofc
but we are all different!
believe me, Muslim people don't hate Christians or anything else
its who pretend to be Muslim are the ones that do
You are dreaming. 'No one understands poor Moslems', except Mohammed who clearly preached and practiced terrorism. Moslems emulate him.
'Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to STRIKE TERROR into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and OTHERS BESIDES, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know.' Koran 8:60
Mohammed: 'I have been made victorious with terror.' Bukhari 4:52:220
We understand the Islamic duty of terrorism very well. You don't.
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
On Saturday July 2, 2005, five days before four suicide bombers killed 52 people on London Transport, Abu Izzadeen said to a group of followers that Muslims must "instil terror into the hearts of the kuffar (non-Muslims)." He also said: "I am a terrorist. As a Muslim of course I am a terrorist."
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
"We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them." (Fath Al-Bāri, 10:544, quoted in Ibn Kathir, Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 141-143)
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
Dream-On wrote:
"believe me, Muslim people don't hate Christians or anything else"
Now the facts:
Saudi Arabian Teacher's Manual tells teachers to teach hatred:
Grade 5: Teach that after their death, non-Muslims will be sent to hell.
Quiz: Is it permissible to love the JEWS and CHRISTIANS? OF COURSE NO. EXPLAIN WHY.
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
Grade 8: COMMAND MUSLIMS TO "HATE" CHRISTIANS, JEWS, POLYTHEISTS and OTHER "unbelievers," including non-devout Muslims."
*Teach that the Crusades never ended, and IDENTIFY the American Universities in Beirut and in Cairo, other Western and Christian social service providers, media outlets, centers for academic studies of Orientalism, and campaigns for WOMEN'S RIGHTS as part of the modern phase of the CRUSADES.
*Teach that "the JEWS and the CHRISTIANS are ENEMIES of the [Muslim] believers" and that "the clash between the two realms "continues until the Day of Resurrection."
GET SOME FACTS, DEAR DREAM-ON...you really are in a separate universe.
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
'The purest joy in Islam is to kill and be killed for Allah.'
'In order to achieve the victory of Islam in the world, we need to provoke repeated crises, restore value to the idea of death and martyrdom.'- Ayatollah Khomeini
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
"I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
Koran:8:57
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
"We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized."
Tabari IX:42
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
Ishaq:327: "Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.'"
Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"
Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."
(Dear Dream-On: “Slaughtered enemy”? “Driven from the land”? This sounds like genocide, don't you think? How can you be part of genocidal group of barbarians like these who have no pity and glory in killing? Are you not ASHAMED of these verses???)
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
Dear Dream-On, You sound like a very nice man. I would love to meet you and be your friend. Please do not think you need to stay in this hate-filled cult. Read the evidence. I hope you will have the courage to leave and continue to practice the Golden Rule. I agree with you: We should LOVE our neighbour as ourself, not hate and murder them as Islam says.
by Declic on November 30th, 2009
Thank you for your answer, Dream On. Asalaamu Aleykom +6
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
by sooz74 on November 29th, 2009
Thank you. I am definately liberal minded but subscribe to the philosophy live and let live so long as no harm to others is done. Diversity is a cure for boredom and eyes opened by different perspectives. Love to debate, hate to argue. I would hate to appear as having no respect for others' opinions due to misunderstanding. :)
'Liberal' should never be synonymous with 'uninformed' or 'spontaneous'.
by Declic on November 29th, 2009
It wasn't my question so is maybe not my place to comment, but how is that question fallacious or presumptuous? It in no way implies all who oppose Islam are ignorant Perhaps you misread it as the complete ignorance of all.... I think sometimes we can become conditioned to black or white, all or nothing type thinking and that may influence how we read or interpret some things. Not saying this applies to you, but have come across many instances of this.
As one who considers herself liberal, I agree entirely it should never be synonymous with uninformed :) Have never heard this to be common thought though. Are liberals known for being informed but not spontaneous?! :)
by sooz74 on November 29th, 2009
The question was written at the time when the public relations campaign following 9-11 and the subway bombings were in full swing. Now we have seen the mindless attacks in Bombay and other places...including a psychiatrist who fired more than 100 times into an unarmed crowd he swore to heal. This is normative Islam. This is jihad. Liberals have been notoriously uninformed and 'spontaneous' about supporting jihad with the 'grievance' argument. The main 'grievance' of the terrorists is found in the Koran: the infidels are scum. Liberals need to crack open some books on the history and philosophical basis of jihad and stop being 'spontaneous' in their remarks. Islam is dualistic and duplicity is part of this equation as well.
(By the way, liberals aren't the only ones underinformed about the political world conquest agenda of normative Islam.)
by Declic on November 29th, 2009
Dear Sooz, You respect the Moslems' right to differ, but they do not respect yours. Most Moslems believe democracy is satanic, because mere humans place their laws above Sharia. Most Moslems in all countries want a world-wide dictator called the caliph who will implement world-wide Sharia law so Moslems may discriminate against women and minorities. Is that what you want? Do you want supremacism, totalitarianism, theocracy? Or liberal democracy. You may have to do something about it. Look up what I say for yourself. The opinion surveys are available...Pew Research, for instance. Inform yourself, dear lady.
by Declic on November 29th, 2009
Had a feeling the meaning of "never be synonymous with uninformed" was not what you thought it to be :) Though mildly offended by the assumption I am uninformed (to clarify not offended or feeling rejected in any way due to my views challenged or your critique of myself and of what I wrote) your comments quite nicely illustrate what I have been trying to get across from my 1st answer written. Can you please give examples from what I have written that leads you to the conclusion I am uninformed, in support of anything where women and minorities are discriminated against and mistreated, that I directly or indirectly support Nazi like or religious imposed rule, or that I justify or support a holy war.
by sooz74 on December 6th, 2009
You do not know my educational background, you do not know to what level and depth I am aware of Islam, nor are you aware of any personal experiences or connections related to Islam and Muslims I may have. Please keep in mind that I was clear in writing my respect for differences ends when those differences cause or promote harm toward others. I believe this distinction I had previously made answers you when you ask if I am in favour of discrimination against women and minorities or a dictatorship type ruling that would quell people's liberties or punish those stray from the imposed path. I am in no way blind to the realities of such treatment and rule or the belief and desire to bring other nations to this way of life by any means necessary under the guise of Islam. I believe strongly in the importance of being aware of world issues and to educate oneself on the various perspectives and sources so as to have a full and objective understanding. I have traveled quite extensively and have spent a lot of time in Muslim populated countries, having both positive and negative experiences. More personally, I have a real interest in religion and am about 2 semesters shy of obtaining a degree in religious studies (Islam both past and present covered extensively in this program). I also have a minor in Women and Gender Studies, a program that focused heavily on oppression of women throughout the world in modern times. I am somewhat anal about being armed with knowledge and empirical truths before I speak, which does not allow for much spontaneity in comments. What I am unsure of I look up, aware that truth does not come from just one source as that source may be biased and have an agenda.
by sooz74 on December 6th, 2009
As a self-professed liberal, I would argue that I am far from what you believe liberals to be. I have cracked open many a book, including those covering the history and philosophical basis of Jihad, any support I give or do not give is based on much research and consideration and is far from spontaneous, and as far as political beliefs around what form of government is best suited to rule, and I am an active member of the New Democratic Party (support given after much time spent learning the beliefs, agendas, and history of various parties) and do not want supremacism, totalitarianism, or a theocracy. I am confident in saying this lady is informed and, at least from what I know of Canadian liberals, have never heard liberals as a whole to be notoriously uninformed.
I find it very sad as well as somewhat alarming that there are those with no knowledge of people, places, and events that influence the lives of us all. It seems unbelievable that someone may be ignorant around events such as 911, but this is a reality. I have even encountered some who have absolutely no knowledge of the holocaust, have never even heard of it. It is these people who I speak of when I speak of those who are ignorant.
by sooz74 on December 6th, 2009
While you are well-informed, I have met just as many uninformed people in all political parties. We are all very imperfect, are we not? The law of selective perception seems to apply across the political spectrum. Give a person 10 facts and after filtering out 9 that disagree with his opinion, he will select the one as proof he is right. This is seen often by those who study public opinion.
We are in an age of intellectual carelessness.
by Declic on December 7th, 2009
+6 Thank you for your detailed answer, sooz74. +6 Salaam
by Theby on December 7th, 2009
by strange1 still in pb on November 27th, 2009
its called hysteria a very powerful consensus based emotion
Thank you, ..Strange1
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
cool:)
by strange1 still in pb on November 27th, 2009
There is no 'hysteria' against Islam. Where? You are making up facts. There is a cold fear and resent towards the terrorists and there is profound scepticism about people like you who defend them.
by Declic on November 28th, 2009
why dont you bother to read what the comment says, if muslim suicde bombers blow people up around the world of course people are going to develop a hysteria to it !! what are you on sheesh!!! youre crazy! go bother someone who gives a shit.
by strange1 still in pb on November 28th, 2009
youre on crack or somethin right!?
by strange1 still in pb on November 28th, 2009
Dear Strange,
You would care a little bit about your fellow man and his sufferings and try to make the world a kinder place if you believed in the Golden Rule. Apparently, you believe in nothing. Most of the world believes the Golden Rule is our guide to morality, but Islam opposes it.
by Declic on November 28th, 2009
by sooz74 on November 21st, 2009
Hate often stems from ignorance. People who hate various groups (different ethnicites, religious groups homosexuals, etc...) are less likely to engage in individual thought and more likely to follow the crowd. When asked to provide an argument for their beliefs, they either have nothing to say, or spew misinformation, false stereotypes, and generalizations that have been fed to them by others.
YOU just made a gross generalization. "...they either have nothing to say, or spew misinformation, false stereotypes, and generalizations that have been fed to them by others." This statement is not logical.
by Theby on November 22nd, 2009
Interesting. You do realize sooz is defending your assumed discrimination against and victimization of Islam don't you Theby?
I find myself in full agreement with you Theby which in itself is a very strange feeling.
I would disagree also with sooz74 and say that the discomfort with Islam begins as you learn about Islam, and unless you submit and become a beneficiary umder the Koran or a member of the Muslim brotherhood, for it is extremely chauvinistic, the revulsion grows with knowledge.
by puzzled on November 22nd, 2009
Sooz is not defending Islam.
by Theby on November 22nd, 2009
That's my Theby. :)
No you're correct Theby, She is though haranguing its detractors. Which is I suppose different if you're pedantic. I assume sooz is female? It could be So Oz?
Still I would be really interested, i fail to see how Sooz's statement is illogical, incorrect yes, but how illogical?
by puzzled on November 22nd, 2009
Meh. Go figure.
by Theby on November 22nd, 2009
I believe I may have misunderstood the question. My answer was in response to what I understood the question to be asking - why do people hate something they have no knowledge of (completely ignorant of). I agree that feelings, including revulsion, can grow with knowledge and that discomfort can begin as you learn, but this speaks to those who are not ignorant, but rather are educated in or have an understanding of what it is that evokes such feelings.
I viewed the question as asking about hatred felt specifically by those who do not have any knowledge or understanding of Islam and very different than a question such as "why do people hate Islam" to which an explanation of feelings influenced by an increased understanding of practices and beliefs related to Islam would be appropriate. I thought the key part of the question was not about hatred toward Islam per say, but how or why people can hate something they know nothing about. If I felt hatred toward Islam, for example, yet was completely ignorant of Islam, what would be the basis of my hatred? What would I say to support my hatred of a subject I knew nothing about? If a person expresses hatred toward something they are completely ignorant of, their feelings cannot be based on knowledge of the truth (not compatible with complete ignorance). It stands to reason then that the hatred is either based something that has been imagined or invented, or is based on information that is in fact not true, perpetuating ignorance. I fail to see why the proposition that hatred of something without any knowledge or understanding (being completely ignorant of what is hated) is likely motivated by misinformation, generalization, and stereotypes is incorrect. If a question was broader and asked about people's views on or hatred toward Islam, my answer would also have been broader.
by sooz74 on November 24th, 2009
I am curious, Theby, if your have any thoughts regarding your question - perhaps may help me understand why you find my answer a generalization and illogical. I am sincerely and respectfully interested, not trying to take a jab at you. I would also like to add my 2 cents to what I was and wasn't doing in my answer in reaction to conclusions drawn. I was neither defending nor attacking Islam - I don't think my opinion for or against is relevant to the question. I was not so much commenting on the hatred shown, but on feelings and opinions expressed, particularly when they show hostility or judgment toward others, toward something one has know knowledge of. I guess you could argue I was haranguing its detractors, but only in reference to those who speak of that they do not know. I have my own beliefs and opinions regarding various issues, practices, groups, etc... and openly share these with others. At the same time, I understand and appreciate we do not all see things the same. I enjoy a debate in which information is offered, opinions vocalized, and all parties are given the opportunity to provide a knowledgeable argument to support their statements. I believe strongly in the ability to disagree without hostility or contempt, the exception being when that different view promotes or causes harm to others (gay bashing or white supremacy groups for example). Finally, to satisfy expressed interest, I am a woman (sooz = Susan). I could be completely wrong, but felt the comment re: my gender were tied into the determination I was criticizing those who are opposed to chauvinism. While this is not what I was doing, as a feminist who actively participates in educating others about violence against women and counsels, supports, and advocates for women who have experienced abuse, I want to make it clear I have zero tolerance for such mistreatment.
I think perhaps I have gone overboard on the comments, but felt the need to clarify and defend myself against assumptions made about me and of the meaning of my answer, that I feel were unwarranted.
by sooz74 on November 24th, 2009
Yadda....
by Theby on November 24th, 2009
passive aggressive
by sooz74 on November 24th, 2009
Meet me in person and you will find I have passivity.
by Theby on November 25th, 2009
I'll take your word for it. Was there something I wrote or something about me that has offended you?
by sooz74 on November 25th, 2009
Your intellect overwhelms Theby, sooz74, and has rendered her speechless. Very brilliant answer and comments on your behalf sooz74.:)+6
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
Thank you, was starting to wonder if I was missing something or just completely off base. Really don't like that feeling of being talked about while in the same room, especially when conclusions are being drawn about my intent and beliefs. You made me feel better :)
by sooz74 on November 27th, 2009
No argument with you sooz except you used the time worn argument of the liberal's.
If I'd stood still long enough on a corner in London I may have found that Jack the ripper was really a nice misunderstood guy, if I'd befriended him and accepted he be rehoused next door, then you know that it works because it's been done before and the complainant always stopped complaining soon after.
I'm afraid that however much we like to believe that only ignorance leads to hate, it is only true for the truly ignorant.
by puzzled on November 27th, 2009
Don't pay too much attention to Theby sooz74. She has a habit of insulting anyone who doesn't agree with her or who is more intelligent than she is. You know when you don't get any response from her that the discussion has gone way above her head. If she thinks she has support from anyone then she will attack whether it is logical or not.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
Gotcha, good to know! Thanks again. Fairly new to this site and have been put in my place a couple of times for treading in waters restricted to more seasoned members ("step down newby") so am probably a bit more sensitive than necessary! :)
Puzzled - my comments were very long winded and I would not expect anyone to read through all of my ramblings, but I in no way suggested that only ignorance leads to hate. I clearly stated that I agee with you that such feelings of course can and do come through education and knowledge. I made the distiction between those whose feelings and views stem from an intellectual understanding vs those who know absolutely nothing about the subject their feelings are directed toward. Both types exist, not one or the other. My comments were to clarify my belief and understanding of this and to be clear I was only talking about those with ignorance. I will not counteract your low blow insult based on an unfounded accusation.
by sooz74 on November 27th, 2009
SOOZ WRITES: "When asked to provide an argument for their beliefs, they either have nothing to say, or spew misinformation, false stereotypes, and generalizations that have been fed to them by others"
Islam hates, homos, Jews, Christians, Hindus, 'natural religionsts', atheists, and anyone who disagrees. The goal of Islam is to subjugate and eliminate all these groups.
Which group is the group that hates?
by Declic on November 28th, 2009
OK Sooz np. Welcome Hugz. It wasn't a low blow but a true statement. I've had a bellyfull of affluent liberals telling us rednecks how to live their lives.
Chicken on Rye
by puzzled on November 29th, 2009
Sooz, please don't think any challenge to a thought is a rejection of you as a very fine, kind and noble person. We are all learning.
Respectfully yours.
by Declic on November 29th, 2009
Thank you - I appreciate that and know that disagreement or challenging what I say does not equal rejection. I am a big girl and have a healthy amount of self-confidence. I welcome opposing views - I enjoy the challenge of a debate and often it is an opportunity to learn something new or see something from a perspective one otherwise would not. Regarding this exchange, I think there was a lot of misunderstanding and varying interpretation - no big deal, it happens. All I was bothered by and admittedly defensive about, was my intent, meaning, and beliefs being verbalized by others based on their assumptions and speculation. To me this is more about judgment (judgment not based on who I am or what I believe but rather who one imagines I am and what I believe) than it is a challenge.
Tone is lost here, so I want to say I my intent is not to antagonize at all.
by sooz74 on December 1st, 2009
by Happy-Dance on October 13th, 2009
secondly Borrasalem, you bring up the crusades, yes it is difficult to believe you have to go back that far to show christian injustice against muslims, but as a christian..i can tell you that we acknowlegde the wrong actions of the Catholic church..now please in turn acknowlegde a serious wrong doing of the islamic ummah against people of other faiths...I know, I know you cant..because islam has always been perfect..and there have never been any islamic regimes that have oppressed people of other faiths....come now do you realy beieve that..(please notice the sarcasm)
The 'tu quoque' fallacy ('you fellows did it too') proves nothing, but is a digression from the subject at hand. The unprovoked aggression of the Arabs and their slave armies were about the creation of a holy Arab empire...one based on slavery. The creation of Islam occurred suddenly around the time of Caliph Abd al Malek when the Arab invasions of Africa, Asia and Spain were in full swing. The invaders, motivated by war booty, women and eternal sex slaves in paradise eagerly propelled the invasions. No one began this process by provoking the Arabs.
by Declic on October 19th, 2009
well said declic
by sharpjwe on October 25th, 2009
by jshm22 on October 12th, 2009
Most people are like sheep. They like to believe that what they have is right and they have the right people leading them and preaching to them despite being found out every election, every newspaper, every statistic.
Islam is the worlds fastest growing religion and as a lsst throw of the dice this tactic of demonising and smothering honest dabate was utilised by the isrealites against the pagans the christians against the jews and then the christains aganst the persians.
Most people can't name three Islamic sects nor point to three mistakes in the Bible or Torah or know that the IRA is a Christian terror group and the worlds largest and was funded by the American governement at one time and Shin Bet is a jewish terror group or Shiv Mahara is a Hindu terror group or Al Quida was in fact set up as an arms selling cartel to the super rich Middle East without the need for pesky democratic rules and that there are more Christian terror groups active in the world than Muslim ones most of which are just gangs with names and no political motives and that Islam gave rights to women when the Christains were burning them at the stake and still views women as inferiour to men and that Jewish women were only recently allowed to vote and some even now aren't.
But these kinds of things make for uncomfortable reading it's best to leave them to their ignorance. After all look what happened to the Christian Nazi Germany it was brought low by other Christians who knew it to be wrong. Similarily the real Semetic Jews will eventually defend there Arab bretheren and likewise true Christians know that fighting for plunder has never lead to lasting peace.
Nonsense. Hitler hated Christianity and loved Islam.
by Declic on October 12th, 2009
really? then please explain those photos of him gladhanding with the pope.
by mazo mike on October 22nd, 2009
Easy.
Hitler was a hypocrite. He manipulated people like Mohammed.
Mohammed pretended he was their friend and then murdered them when their guard was down.
Hitler admired Islam for this rapacious, conscienceless savagery. Once he had won the war, Hitler vowed he would "crush (the Church) like a toad".
Thousands of priest, nuns, and laity were shot, beheaded, worked to death, died of illness and exhaustion in Hitler's death camps.
On the other hand, the Mufti of Jerusalem was an honourary colonel in the SS. Islam and fascism go hand in hand.
by Declic on October 22nd, 2009
Double nonsense!
Hitler believed he was executing Biblical prophesy
against 'Jesus-killer Jews'!
He only loved himself
under the guise of supremacy of German race.
For achievement of that Hitlar was not above slaughtering anybody, including Christians.
by ScienceSwamy on October 25th, 2009
Adolf Hitler’s comments on Christianity and Islam:
-The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity.
-Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery. A nigger with his taboos is crushingly superior to the human being who seriously believes in transubstantiation.
-Nazis could be Moslems and Moslems could be Nazis.
Hitler and Mohammed were both toxic narcissists.
by Declic on October 25th, 2009
That is an interesting quote. May I ask the source?
by no_one_special on October 25th, 2009
Hitler's inner circle (especially Albert Speer)wrote down his comments after meetings and dinners where he spoke informally from the heart. These are Hitler's heartfelt feelings of hatred. Hitler was a frustrated artist. His sister said it would have been better for the world if he had not been rejected by the Vienna Art Academy. Hitler was also a member of occult groups. Himmler performed secret occult rituals at SS headquarters. Hitler believed he was guided by a spirit, pagan god or by the devil himself...as did Mohammed...who in the Hadiths and Sira is seen under spells (mental illness or real spirit possession) and frequently wondered if his 'angel' was actually a devil. How can someone under 'spells' for long periods be a real prophet. More likely this is delusion, psychosis or something similar.
by Declic on October 26th, 2009
Can you provide links or a source for Mohamed thinking he was under the influence of Satan?
by no_one_special on October 26th, 2009
THE SATANIC VERSES FROM THE SIRA:
Mohammed said ‘The Devil spoke to me and tricked me.’
Mohammed claimed that Satan made him change the Koran to please pagan polytheists. Mohammed told his followers to abandon strict monotheism, Mohammed’s main teaching! This reveals Mohammed as a manipulative opportunist, trying any deception to sucker people into his cult. When his followers objected, he quickly blamed Satan!
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
The truth of this story cannot be doubted, since it is inconceivable that any Moslem would invent such a story, and it is inconceivable that early Moslem scholars would accept such a story from a non-Moslem. The story must be authentic: Mohammed was deluded once. But if once, why not twice, or ten times, or thirty, or five hundred times? Perhaps everything Mohammed claimed to come from ‘an angel’ was actual from a fallen angel…The point worries Moslems to the extent that they never recommend the reading of the Sira, the first biography of Mohammed’s life.
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
An extensive account of the Satanic Verses is found in al-Tabāri's history, the Ta'rīkh (Vol. I). The biographies of Mohammed by al-Wāqidī, Ibn Sa'd, al-Tabarī, and the Sira of Ibn Ishaq (the latter as reconstructed by Alfred Guillaume).
Mohammed must have publicly recited the satanic verses as part of the Koran; it is unthinkable that this damaging story could have been invented by Moslems, or foisted upon them by non- Moslems. Mohammed at least once was controlled by Satan.
by Declic on October 30th, 2009
by pugwashjw65 on October 11th, 2009
Maybe because they do not like the way Islam reacts to " supposed " insults to their version of God...e.g. Salman rushdie and his continuing death sentence.
Do they not think that if their god was the true God, then HE could easily defend himself.
Even when catholics hear someone say something against God, they do NOT retaliate.
Neither does any other Christian [ claiming ] religion.
Only Islam claims to be right when promoting bombings.
Are silk ties permissible in Islam?
by Answerbag Staff on April 3rd, 2010
| 1 person likes this
Which famous Muslim most represents Islam to YOU?
by Marky Mark on January 28th, 2012
| 2 people like this
a question mainly for Muslims, but I'm curious what other non-Christian religions think, too:
by Tom Slick on January 16th, 2012
| 4 people like this
ISLAM: Are the words/answers of Mohammed (pbuh) in the ahadith divinely inspired ? Thanks
by Nuffsed on January 26th, 2012
| 1 person likes this
Suppose we clone the Prophet Mohammed by means of DNA of hair of his beard what do you think is the first thing that this clone will do?
by Pallieter1942 on January 7th, 2012
| 1 person likes this
You're reading Why do people who are completely ignorant of Islam hate it so much?
Your favorite Q&A site is on Facebook! Become a fan to connect with the ever-growing community of Answerbaggers, share your thoughts and find out what Answerbag's up to next!
Comments
Agreed
+5
by 23Skidoo on July 28th, 2008
You're not alone AR the Prophet's uncle himself, nicknamed Abu Lahab (father of flame) because of his ruddy complexion, disagreed with him far more strongly than you ever could. After Mohammed finished talking to anyone he would go to the person and say to them whatever it is that my nephew has just told you it is a lie. A bit like you and 23Skidoo and the others who come to the AB Islam section to rubbish the faith. 23Skidoo whose prejudices your answer has confirmed says, like you have in the past, that Mohammed invented the HQ to support his arguments, well you'll love this one. HQ 111 was revealed saying "Perished are the hands of the Father of Flame! and perished is he! Of no profit to him is his wealth, and his gains! Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of Flames! And his wife carrier of the (crackling) wood. Shall have around her neck A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre!" What it is saying is that he will die an enemy of God and will meet the described doom.
.
Now the uncle couldn't have had a more golden opportunity to dicredit his nephew and prove the HQ a fake than that. All he had to do was declare that he accepted the HQ as genuine (without actually doing so) and at a stroke the publicly announced prediction of the HQ that he would die an enemy of God would have been proved wrong.
by borasalama on August 1st, 2008
Borasalama, I doubt that many people specifically come to the Islam section to insult it. They probably just run across the question while browsing. That aside, I don't see anything objectionable to Antigone's statement, except that one might clarify that it's *their interpretation* of Islam that leads them to commit atrocities.
by Amorphous Blob on August 10th, 2008
Antigone, I know that not everyone who disagrees with Islam is ignorant. But my question asks about the ignorant ones, not the others who simply disagree with Islam. The question is clear.
by Theby on September 15th, 2008
In general, people just love to judge others to get a feeling of superiority, and people fear what they don't understand. (I don't think either of those is a factor in Antigone's case.)
There's also the fact that a lot of Muslims throughout the world hate us and celebrate acts of terrorism and mass-murder against westerners and Muslims.
by Amorphous Blob on September 15th, 2008
I did not say that about Antigone. And the marines don't celebrate the killings and raping innocent women and children. Name me one incidence where a Muslim has raped a western woman?
by Theby on September 15th, 2008
I didn't say that you said that about Antigone; I just didn't want her to think I was saying it about her.
Those were isolated incidents for which the Marines were prosecuted and found guilty. Any decent service member and any decent human finds that a sick crime.
I don't want to get into an argument here; I was just stating my first few thoughts as to why people might not like Islam.
by Amorphous Blob on September 15th, 2008
Amorphous, With all due respect, those incidents are not isolated. Look on YouTube and there they are. Not old incidents but new ones. Salaam.
by Theby on September 15th, 2008
First of all, let me apologize. I've been away for a month and a half due to visitors and traveling. Now, let me go one by one. First of all, US citizens and military do rape. This is a problem. One isolated incident or more (it is more) is irrelevant. It shouldn't happen, and we should be more agressive in prosecuting those who do it. Personally, I think any US citizen (military or no) who rapes anyone should be turned over to the respective government for prosecution, as they committed a crime in that jurisdiction. The leniency in our sentencing of these people is, frankly, embarrassing. Secondly, whether or not US citizens rape hardly justifies anyone doing it anywhere in the world. Rape is not justified - period. Ever. Thirdly, Muslims rape Western women all the time. Muslims rape Muslims all the time. In fact, tribal courts using Sharia actually SENTENCE women to be raped (even gang raped) for transgressions done by their male family members.
by AntigoneRising on September 17th, 2008
This is somehow seen as regaining honor, although I fail to see how anyone involved in such an act (the sentencing or the carrying it out) has any honor whatsoever. I cannot find a word in the English language to describe this complete lack of ethics and honor. It is despicable beyond reproach or justification. Period. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/29/opinion/29kris.html If you can justify or even attempt to justify this, you are beyond contempt and I feel no need or desire to further converse with you. Let me make that plain up front. I'm not going to argue this point. What does this have to do with Islam? Well, it is the Islamic leaders who block any attempt to halt such practices and kill legislation designed to do so. Bottom line: Islamic leaders (whether you agree with them or not) support the continuation of this practice.
by AntigoneRising on September 17th, 2008
Thebyann, I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here (I don't usually have to try ;) ) , but what subjects or keywords can I search for on YouTube to find these videos?
by Amorphous Blob on September 17th, 2008
Thebyann, I know your question didn't ask about it. However, at that time there were several people stating unequivocably to me that anyone who disagrees with or dislikes Islam simply doesn't understand it. Thus, I made the point in my answer. I do believe I answered your actual question prior to making my point. My apologies if I left the impression that you thought this or were asking about it. Here's one link referencing Muslims raping Western women. It is a serious problem in many areas, due mainly to teachings that women who aren't covered are 'asking' for rape, that infidel women (unbelievers) are fair game, etc. These views actually are spread and preached by Muslim Imams. Not that many Muslims don't disagree with these teachings, but there you have it. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/285138/muslim_man_who_raped_muslim_woman_as.html?cat=17
by AntigoneRising on September 17th, 2008
Antigone, I'm no particular fan of Islam or Muhammad, but at what point does one decide that it's a brutal cultural thing developed by hypocrites cloaking themselves in the appearance of Islam, instead of something that one could reasonably think might be condoned by the teachings of Muhammad? (Christianity had the Inquisition and other atrocities, which could in no way be considered to be implied by Jesus' teachings.) Do you consider the Hadiths too, which have Muhammad torturing and massacring people?
by Amorphous Blob on September 17th, 2008
Many Muslims consider his teachings of Allah's mercy; many others take the whole more warlike package. I know very little about Islam, but it seems to me that the latter approach is not that much of a stretch to adopt, particularly for people raised on hatred and anger. To sum it up, what's the "real" Islam? I don't know the answer, but I'm not going to pretend that there aren't terrorists who justify their atrocities with Islam out there.
That's my 2 cents, anyway.
by Amorphous Blob on September 17th, 2008
AB, that is a good question. Who's to say which version of Islam is correct, and I certainly really don't care. The problem here is that those of the Islamic religion (hereafter called Islam to save characters) have been protecting and advocating these practices. Does Islam have a history of spreading tolerance and peace or the opposite? I think the history of the religion is quite clear (I say the exact same thing of Christianity, btw). Now, I do consider the Hadiths, which have the EXACT same history in regards to when they were written and how they were handled as the Koran. Neither is contemporary to Mohammed, and neither describe him in a good light. (They think they do, but that isn't the same as actually doing it.) Now, please note that I didn't bring up rape, it was broached by others. I find it only slightly related to anything I've said.
by AntigoneRising on September 17th, 2008
I am going to address all of your comments in the order they were made. Antigone, I do not condone rape in any shape or form. It IS dispicable! There are many "sects" in Islam. The main two being Sunni and Shi'te. The Shi'te co-operate with the Americans and even kill their Sunni counterparts. I have never heard of courts sentencing woman to be raped or gang raped. Could you please tell me where to reference this. In the Qu'ran it is STRICTLY forbidden to carry out such acts against women. Now, Shi'te Muslims do not believe in some parts of the Qu'ran. I would suggest to you that these disgusting acts are carried out by
by Theby on September 17th, 2008
Shi'te Muslims. I do not know for sure and do not claim to be an expert on the subject but Sunni Muslims DO follow the Qu'ran word-for-word and this behaviour is not mentioned in the Qu'ran, Insh'Allah. I asked my husband, who is from Jordan, if he has seen or heard of "honour killings or rapes." He has heard of the killings but not in Jordan. He said they happen in Shi'te controlled countries such as Iran. He has not heard of the rapes you mentioned. Most Sunni Muslims totally abhor this treatment of women whom they respect above all. Muslim mothers are idolized by their children and in the Qu'ran they are intructed to do so.
by Theby on September 17th, 2008
Amorphous, He is an incident of rape by Shi'te Muslims of a Sunni Muslim. Note the Americans side with the Shi'tes.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/21/world/main2501929.shtml
Sorry the address is so long but I don't know how to make it shorter! I am not good with computers.Here's another one:
http://www.vialls.com/myahudi/rape.html
Antigone, I did not look at your video as I have no doubt that it shows what you claim and it upsets me to see such depravity.
by Theby on September 17th, 2008
As in any religion there are "bad apples", for want of a more accurate description. Every Sunni Muslim I have spoken to about these acts (and, believe me, there have been a lot) know of no Sunni Muslims who have committed such acts. Once again, this can only lead me to believe that Shi'te Muslims are the culprits. They are our enemy as much as the US Marines are enemies of the Sunni Muslims in Iraq. A lot of Muslims disagree with the fact that women are "fair game". Most women I know choose to wear the hijab because of modesty. They do not like being gawked at by men.
by Theby on September 17th, 2008
Amorphous, Being a new revert to Islam I have not yet studied the Hadiths of Mohammed (PBUH). I am still getting my head around the Qu'ran. It is a lot to read! Again I asked my poor beleagued husband about this. He says Mohammed did participate in stoning of women AND men for adultery. This was in the belief that it would disuade others from committing these acts which threatened the foundation of the family unit. That is all I can say as we Muslims have to be very careful to not commit the crime of "Shirk" or making statements about something we know nothing of.
by Theby on September 17th, 2008
To me the "real Islam" is tolerance of others, honesty, piety and peace. Muslims are instructed by Allah to fight only when at war and/or to protect their family, property and other Muslims. The killing of innocents is "haram" or sinful.
The history of Islam I really cannot comment on as I do not know enough about it. A good person to ask would be borasalama. He seems to be very knowledgeable on the subject. Hadiths are Mohammed's recitations, not Allah's and my husband tells me that some of these we added at the time by enemies of Mohammed and show Islam in a bad light. That really is all I know.
by Theby on September 17th, 2008
Thanks for your good feedback, guys. As I was driving home yesterday I thought that I should have added something like: ultimately it comes down to the individual person, and whether he accepts and practices the teachings of love, or allows himself to be taken in by "the dark side" of hate and violence. There is a lot of the latter expressed in the Middle East, and the public doesn't stop to consider that it's the worst cases that get into the news.
by Amorphous Blob on September 18th, 2008
And of course the next "on the other hand" sentence comes to mind: But when a high percentage of the population of a country approves of the terrorism in Israel or there are street celebrations about 9/11, it's hard not to.
So, in a nutshell, my answer is: It's a hard question.
by Amorphous Blob on September 18th, 2008
It is that, Amorphous. But remember, there are many times when Muslims have been killed and there has been dancing in the streets. Muslims do not kill for the fun of it. There is always a reason behind it. The Americans, Bosnians, Russians and even Hitler hated and killed the Muslims. And, as you said the Media doesn't show the worst cases in the news. If Muslims kill, there is ALWAYS a reason. 9/11 was terrible but that was in response to Muslims being killed. Most people think it was just a random act.
by Theby on November 23rd, 2008
You have to becareful as to the sources that you take your information from and also think logically to the time and day accepted and unaccepted practices. Islam's core message is same as the other two abrahamic religions, in fact if you look into the actual documents Islam gives more rights and freedoms especially to women then the other two religions. The formula that is probably the best for learning about Islam is to read pro-Islamic and anti-Islamic writters and historians opinions and find the middle ground which is probably the most acurate. Many people attempt to besmirch the character of the Prophet (PBUH) because of things their own family history would reveal, context is the most important thing to remember.
by AMIRA-NICHOLLE on November 28th, 2008
Great comment. Thank you, AMIRA-NICHOLLE.
by Theby on December 23rd, 2008
Good points.
by Amorphous Blob on December 23rd, 2008
This is too long a string to address every point but a couple of things jump out here. Firstly there have even been honour killings in the UK amongst the Muslim population so how anyone can bury their head in the sand on honour killings I am not sure if it's that widespread a phenomenon. Secondly, the Hadiths are in fact rejected by many Muslims as they are inconveniently brutal in places - Picking and choosing the bits of a religion one can cope with doesn't do much to credit the religion as a whole. Lastly, for now, you seem to indicate that you find 9/11 justifiable Theby. For myself the followers of a religion and the way that religion is held up by it's believers is how best to judge a religion in reality (rather than looking at it in an idealistic vacuum) & pointing out the vague reason for 9/11 rather than condemning it is exactly why many Westerners are against Islam; it's down to Muslims committing evil in it's name & other Muslims not standing up against that evil.
by Who Is She on October 12th, 2009
those who start off with a hatred of SOMETHING (NOT necessarily Islam or even religion) become like parched sponges towards anything that reinforces that hatred. Any attempt at putting things into their proper perspective is like pouring water onto a duck's back.
.
If we don't think it's reasonable to judge a car by the drivers that crash it how can it be reasonable to judge a religion followed by about 1.4 billion by the actions of a tiny percentage.
by borasalama on October 12th, 2009
Is this why Muslims don't even bother to stand up and say they are against terrorism and want to integrate peacefully into the Western countries they choose to settle in?
.
If there are 1.4 billion behind Islam it's pretty disgusting than there aren't even a few making waves against the backward atrocities committed by the few. Your metaphorical driver is celebrated not condemned and that alienates decent human beings.
by Who Is She on October 12th, 2009
This is not religion now, there is no mention of the OT, NT or the HQ. We are into world politics - a very dirty game indeed.
.
Terrorism is terrorism, whether the innocent victims are killed by suicide bombers on two legs or stealth bombers flying a safe distance in the skies.
.
I don't want to sit in judgment, but if you do, make sure to use even, fair scales. For each side, you could look at the
numbers killed or maimed
number of combatants involved
number of weapons deployed
killing power of the weapons
distance travelled from home to the deadly jobs
dollars poured into their killing agendas
etc etc
.
if still judging, think whether killing and maiming people with stealth bombers "alienates decent human beings" on the other side or not.
.
did they "celebrate" or "condemn"? You decide -
those figures don't interest me - Colin Powell re 20,000 civilians dead in hour 1 of Gulf War 1
price worth paying - Madeleine Albright on Iraqi baby deaths resulting from sanctions
by borasalama on October 12th, 2009
The US does not bomb for terroristic reasons, we bomb to hit terrorist camps. The US is, to a fault, happy to sit away on its own and ignore the world.
by Amorphous Blob on October 13th, 2009
AB To quote B under his own answer: 'History says Muslims, like other civilisations, expanded their empire. If they hadn't “modern European civilization would NEVER have risen at all.' What I find interesting is B's reference to Muslims as a civilization expanding their empire. The Umayyids, Abbasids Ottomans had Empires and they were muslim but they were not muslim empires. They were Arab, Turkish and Mogul.
by Bohemian is back on October 13th, 2009
When the west attacked Iraq the whole of the muslim world looks on at as an attack against Islam and yet when terrorists hit the twin towers, the west labels this as an attack against the US, not Christendom.
by Bohemian is back on October 13th, 2009
It depends on where you're standing. "Nobel Peace Prize winner and international symbol of freedom Nelson Mandela is flagged on U.S. terrorist watch lists" He was fighting against minority rule by white supremacists. If we go further back in time we'd find George Washington regarded as a terrorist - by the British. He was fighting occupying forces.
.
by borasalama on October 13th, 2009
True borasalama, but considering the circumstances the more level headed one is in one' accusations the better at the moment. Looking on America' activities as an attack on muslims is inflammatory; pursuit of their own interests, resources etc 'yes', and a need to keep muslim extremism in check and to install democracy to make pursuit of their aims easier, 'yes', but an attack on the whole of the muslim world, 'no'.
by Bohemian is back on October 14th, 2009
Borasalama cites the 1st Gulf War - Iraq invaded Kuwait! Did you miss that? Invading a country is going to bring problems and to reiterate Excalibur's point, a counter-offensive was launched not against the Muslim world (we were asked to help our ally Kuwait and we did), but against an attacking country.
.
Nelson Mandela may be innocent but the activities of his group including Winnie Mandela included burning people alive for not falling in line. Nelson Mandela has since acknowledged this and expressed his disgust. He is no longer on the watch list.
.
Go back too far in history and all you're doing is underlining the fact that what Muslim terrorists are doing today is backward and primitive and something we should, as decent 12st century humans, have grown out of.
.
In discussions like this it is interesting that all we ever see is people justifying the extremists and trying to imply that war and terrorism are synonymous. Never is there any hint of wanting to make things better.
by Who Is She on October 14th, 2009
it is all relative Who Is She, and don't forget very often 'might is right'. Well, might thinks so and those around it have to accept it.
.
"our ally Kuwait"? these allies are adopted and dumped to suit circumstances. Fighters of occupying forces in Afghanistan were, AT ONE TIME, a strong ally worthy of giving some of the most advanced weapons to. Saddam too was an ally worthy of supplying lethal arms to, when he was given the green signal to attack Iran.
.
There is a lot of truth in Excalibur's analysis that it's all done in the pursuit of American economic and other self-interests.
.
I repeat what I said earlier - "This is not religion now, there is no mention of the OT, NT or the HQ. We are into world politics - a very dirty game indeed" and quite depressing to dwell on for too long.
.
I leave you with the salutation of Jesus and of Muslims everywhere - salam eleikom
by borasalama on October 14th, 2009
boraslama: I guess what you are trying to proof is the same thing I used to do, or I may also be wrong about judging you as I'm a human and can make mistakes. The point is that we cannot prove anyone, anything when the doesn't listen through open mind. Cont.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
boraslama: I don't see any difference between terrorists and America other than that America is doing the same thing in a bulk and through technology. If anyone doesn't agree then just count the casualties. Cont.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
How mean is the stance that we were the same muslim who were heroes when fighting againts USSR, where was Quran at that time? Should we also take Christian religion as the terrorists because of the fact that President of America told us that this war is crusades.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
Just ask someone about the Darvin's theory of evolution, they will act as if it is some compulsory theory from their religion, they cannot see outside a specified circle which was drawn upon them through media. They would see even in Quran, what they want to see.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
They think they are the most scientific and logical peoples but they are wrong, they can only see their nose logically. They hate muslims is their unconscious that they even cannot recognise a muslim who is actually trying to help them out from their fear. Cont.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
Their fear so great that they would not even give a muslim their e-mail address. I'm not saying that all of the Americans are so but there is a reasonable population with this psyche. They want to be spoon fed but after that they vomit due to fear.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
They have just seen one 9/11, which made them so horrified, we still don't have any proof other than that media is telling us so, as if media is God. Even if they were muslims, then what is the point to target all other muslims. Brother, this is their own s..t, the leaders of .cont.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
Of there terrorists were in fact property of America itself (CIA, to be precise) that is also told us by their own literature not been forged by our elders. All I stated is history. There is no point to fight about that now but what should we muslims do other .Cont.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
Than to concentrate only upon our own peoples, because A would simply don't believe our side of story just because media tells them so. Brother, this is not that simple to show them the real picture of truth, because they think that only Americans or so have the right to live.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
We must rather concentrate upon muslims to squeeze the hate outta their minds, the same hate which is now taking as victims the subconscious of west, building since long due to palestine, bosnia, and many other places.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
Those who have pure hate for muslims would never believe that their own elders actualy took part to forge this great game of power, opium, passage, oil and oppression. Which now we have to clean because one day we would have to meet the real God.
by Spaitray on October 14th, 2009
By the way, this is my last comment upon AB, anyone who would like to keep in touch could be do so through email or facebook, I've written my email address in my profile. So good bye.
by Spaitray on October 15th, 2009
Spaitray, in case you read this...
You said " I don't see any difference between terrorists and America other than that America is doing the same thing in a bulk and through technology". But defending onesself against another 9/11 attack is not the same as terrorist attacks. Iraq was invaded to remove a proven aggressor who had used poison gas and who had earlier had a nuclear program.
by Amorphous Blob on October 15th, 2009
Yes, Bush was a fool to invade upon the evidence at the time, and without understanding the basic facts of that part of the world.
Your next few comments are absurd - you see things from a very narrow viewpoint.
Take care.
by Amorphous Blob on October 15th, 2009
Theby Sep, 17 2008 at 07:39 PM 'I would suggest to you that these disgusting acts are carried out by Shi'te Muslims.' Of course you would Theby. Any fool who doesn't know what they are talking about would suggest it was all the other sides fault. And don't you think it is about time you gave references to these wild accusations as you so readily demand of everyone else on AB?
by Bohemian is back on October 15th, 2009
Dear Antigone, Disagreeing with Mohammed is the worst crime in Islam...Mohammed got all his information from Allah, so you are thus calling Allah a liar. This crime is known as 'fitna'. 'Fitna'...disagreeing with Allah/Mohammed means you are committing blasphemy and treason at the same time. These two crimes are punishable under Sharia by death.
by Declic on November 9th, 2009
ThebyAnne believes rape is prohibited, but only rape of Moslem women is prohibited. Islam is the only religion that institutionalizes rape and has rules for it. Infidel women are free for the taking. Moslem men know very well about the unlimited sexual freedom they have and they enjoy it. They have boasted about their sexual freedom with me. The religiously sanctioned ability to cheat on their wives, etc. All infidel women have stories of sleazy Moslem males. The Sira and Hadiths have all the rules for rape. Mohammed handed out helpless captive girls for the sport of his sweaty, blood-covered jihadists. The Koran says a pious Moslem prays, gives to charity and has sex with his slave girls. That's right. The slave girl is someone with no choice who is exploited. Rape is the reward for jihadists in the Sira. Thebyann has joined a group that makes rape of infidel women 'halal'. She needs to read the Sira right away.
Here's a headline 'Muslim Rape Epidemic Puts Sweden at Top of Euro Rape Statistics'
by Declic on November 9th, 2009
Wow, Declic. They say given enough rope people will hang themselves, but I didn't realise you'd go to that extent to prove it.
by borasalama on November 10th, 2009
Borasalma, howso? In the Koran, Muslim women cannot be "right-hand possessions". But "right-hand possessions" exist. Mohammad had many. So, then, who are these women? Non-Muslims. What do you call it when anyone, including women, are in a situation where they cannot say no to sex, cannot escape the situation, and are owned property? Why, sexual slavery. What do you call it when you disregard anyone's wishes and have sex with him/her anyway? Why, they call that rape. This is not to say that the majority of Muslims are rapists. However, the practice I just described is sanctioned in the Koran, and definitely not forbidden.
by AntigoneRising on November 11th, 2009
Let's cut the crap here - Any culture that still exists in the 21st century which promotes, condones or connives in rape is hideously and dangerously primitive and should be wiped out! Either Islamic culture does or it doesn't; let's hear some solid evidence that Islam consistently forbids and condemns all rape or let's just drop the 'let's all be tolerant and learn about others' stance if it's a hopeless case.
by Who Is She on November 11th, 2009
Declic's pet beliefs are encapsulated in his last post above, he obviously loves them and takes great pleasure in them. It is not possible for me to break through the tough protective shell of his comfort zone, I will therefore leave him to revel in it with the salutation popular with Jesus and Muslims alike - salam eleikom.
.
AR too has her own pet beliefs about Islam, however, they have NEVER been expressed in such an obnoxious way as Declic's (judging by the one's I've read so far) Nevertheless, instead of looking for a Muslim to explain a certain issue of Islam to her AR takes up a firm negative stance on the issue and tries to unyieldingly persuade Muslims that her understanding is correct.
.
In many instances Islam regulated practices that it found. Some of those practices died out centuries ago, soon after they became regulated. "What your right hand posseses" perhaps referred to concubines which may have been common amongst all at that time. Perhaps these were war widows taken into care, perhaps both sides had them, not just the Muslims. I really don't know much about this and don't know of anyone who does, because it's been so irrelevant for such a long time.
by borasalama on November 12th, 2009
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. You have presented no counter-argument of any substance.
.
Now - I repeat - '.... let's hear some solid evidence that Islam consistently forbids and condemns all rape.' Got any??
by Who Is She on November 13th, 2009
What ever the man says, goes honey. A woman has to have either 2 or 4 witnesses to prove it was rape under Islamic law. That's their version of equality for you.
by Bohemian is back on November 13th, 2009
And borasalama, to my knowledge, has never lived in the muslim world so he is talking 'in theory' rather than 'in practice' so to speak.
by Bohemian is back on November 13th, 2009
looks to me like you some like minds have got together, I'll leave you to discuss your pet hates. salam eleikom.
by borasalama on November 13th, 2009
Thought so!!!
by Who Is She on November 13th, 2009
If you'd said something like 'I know of all the prophets mentioned by the Abrahamic faiths Mohammed is the most historically confirmed and that the modern world is indebted to the early Muslims for providing the stepping stones that have helped us get where we are in our science and technology, but my biggest problem with the faith is xxx' then I would have some confidence this is a genuine enquiry and would have engaged in a discussion to explain how I see xxx from the inside. But if you get pleasure from harbouring devillish beliefs about the faith it's pointless me trying to deprive you of your source of pleasure.
by borasalama on November 14th, 2009
We all know about the early cultural contributions of the Muslim world but that has nothing to do with hatred of Islam today. The disgusting values and behavioural patterns upheld and exercized by Muslims today are what's being addressed here and you have clearly got no argument otherwise you would have presented it despite your obviously transparent excuses for not doing so. It's a pity; I keep wishing some Muslim, any Muslim would stand up and start a strong movement for decent Muslim living because there are a lot of you out there and it matters. It's discussions like this that are slowly but surely making me anti-Muslim. It increasingly seems to me that Islam is just a very, very unpleasant religion and one that now stands in the way of civilised human advancement and the worldwide consolidation of human rights.
by Who Is She on November 14th, 2009
@Who is She. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/islams-gender-crisis/story-e6frg6z6-1111112430015
.
Just a little article to add to the discussion. Unfortunately, there are people on here who are in denial about Islam. However, there are many muslim intellectuals who are progressive and are working to 'update' it and bring it into the 21st centuary. I believe they will succeed.
by Bohemian is back on November 14th, 2009
Many thanks for the article - Interesting and horrifying stuff. The very blunt conclusion seems to be that to save Westerners from the primitive horrors of Islam we should not allow these people into our society at all. If they are so traumatised by our culture why do they come to our countries anyway? The horrors of their own? Too much of a paradox. Seems backward but if no progress is made in Islamic culture what choice is there but to firmly separate the cultures? But what of those in Islamic countries - We can't just turn our back on their plight surely? It's such a sad mess. I noticed the lack of direct material re. 'muslim intellectuals who are progressive and are working to 'update' it'. That was notable. A lot more progress is needed there. Thanks again for the article.
by Who Is She on November 14th, 2009
I followed the link and read most of what was there. The use both of you have made of that article to confirm your feelings about Islam confirms in my mind what I suspected and expressed in my earlier comment that it looks to me like two like minds have got together. And indeed you have already started to discuss your pet hates and help each other reinforce them. I do not wish to be a party to that and am happy to leave you to indulge in it if that's what pleases you.
.
You are presenting a very unflattering image of your intelligence if you have swallowed the report without seeing that it is extremely biased having set out to present Islam as devillish. It is like someone who has picked all the rotten grapes he could find and given you that as a faithful representation of the vine fruit.
.
Islam is encapsulated in the instruction contained in the HQ. If there is an issue in it you don't agree with I would be happy to discuss it with you.
.
There IS indeed bad in society but it is everywhere as you will see from just a few examples below which focus on the bad not on the faith of the bad. Take care.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/116987899 http://www.feministing.com/archives/018795.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4532617.stm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10959-2004Jun2.html
by borasalama on November 14th, 2009
Your first line of defence, borsalama, is 'you hate'. You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Whilst muslim intellectuals are trying to bring islam out of the dark ages, you are fighting with windmills like Don Quixote. Just as I condemn the fundamentalist elements in Christianity today, I condemn the extremist and radical elements that Islam has spawned.
by Bohemian is back on November 15th, 2009
The fact that you even support a misguided convert like Theby shows YOUR lack of intellect. When I first read your discussions I found them to be reasonably sensible. But supporting someone who supports the Taliban, terrorism, is anti-American etc because they profess themselves to be a muslim and quote the odd hadith and verse from the Koran is ridiculous by any standards in 'true' Islam. By associating yourself with such a person you do yourself a great disservice. By underestimating your some of the people who join these discussions on Islam you show a very limited perspective of the Islamic world.
by Bohemian is back on November 15th, 2009
A muslim who has had no experience of the muslim world outside the borders of the USA should do a little more research, with an open mind, before stating that 'this is the way it is in Islam'. The Islamic world is vast and combines anyone from the most backward tribal communities to people who live lives that are more sophisticated than 99.9% of the USA. When you talk about Islam you talk from your experience in the USA and from the Koran and hadiths and comparing it to Christianity. But this is only a small part of the Islamic world and culture.
by Bohemian is back on November 15th, 2009
Borasalama - You still have presented zero response to the blunt question of whether Islam consistently forbids and condemns all rape, (bar a lot of excuses not to answer). It is no reflection of our intelligence that we conclude from the evidence we have and no evidence otherwise that Islam is so backward that rape is not condemned. This is an entire religion with a lot of very zealous followers we are talking about, so if pro-rape is indeed a factor in this religion I am very simply and very understandably horrified by that.
by Who Is She on November 15th, 2009
first you say there are people "trying to bring islam out of the dark ages" implying that it is firmly lodged in "dark ages" then you say there are Muslims "who live lives that are more sophisticated than 99.9% of the USA" How can that be if Islam is stuck in the dreadful "dark ages"?
.
I think we do need an element of radical thinking in society, don't you, otherwise we'll have stagnation .
.
extremism? yes we can do without it, but let's not start with those who are extremely charitable, extremely friendly, but rather those who are extremely violent, extremely rude, extremely intolerant, whatever the hue of their faith.
.
If I've read your second post correctly, I think you are saying that "true" Islam is one which is
anti Taliban
pro American and
anti terrorism, although you didn't say whether you make a distinction between that carried out by suicide bombers and that carried out by stealth bombers.
.
@ Who Is She. Do you seriously think your question about rape is a sensible question? I think any self respecting Muslim would see it either as an insult or ignorance of basic facts about Islam on the part of the questioner.
by borasalama on November 15th, 2009
Theby, I think this string gives you your answer.
by Who Is She on November 15th, 2009
Yes, this string definately gives me my answer. Shame!
by Theby on November 15th, 2009
@ boraslama, no one is going to believe the true spirit of real Islam until someone of us muslims practically show the world by applying it upon their own selves, that was the way of our Prophet and His companions, until that, any discussion is lame.
by Spaitray on November 15th, 2009
@Who is she:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/72338 This article shows the four different punishments for rape. Note that if the girl does not scream there is no proof that she was unwilling. And if the man does not confess and there are not 4 witnesses then there is no proof he committed the crime. These punishments do not prevent the father from leaving his daughter on the street which so often happens as it also does if a woman leaves her husband.
by Bohemian is back on November 16th, 2009
Spaitray although it might appear so I don't think you're saying that Islam is about doing things to "show the world"
.
You'll agree the last and final Prophet for mankind brought about radical changes in society taking it from darkness to enlightenement, and from obscurity to world role model status, all because they implemented the HQ. People should be encouraged and assisted to go back to the HQ and build a just and equitable society. They should NOT be discouraged, hindered and persecuted when they try to implement the HQ in their lives.
by borasalama on November 16th, 2009
Well they haven't had much success so far, borasalama. Take the Taliban, for example. They were reinstating the principles of the Koran. Would you like to live in such a society? Going back to the literal interpretation of ancient scripture, as the Taliban is doing, is not the answer. Learning how Islam can adapt to an ever changing and more enlightened world than Mohammed's, with a multitude of cultures and religions, is. And, as I said before, there are many muslim intellectuals who are presently working to this end.
by Bohemian is back on November 16th, 2009
I don't think it's a question of "Well they haven't had much success so far" in modern times, but rather a question of they haven't, in modern times, been allowed to live their faith the way it should be lived. Mostly because of drummed up hysterical fear amongst non-Muslims.
by borasalama on November 16th, 2009
How has any non-Muslim kept any Muslim from living his or her faith the way it should be lived? Which Muslims are these, exactly? Where is there "hysterical fear"?
by Amorphous Blob on November 16th, 2009
Exactly Amorphous Blob.
.
Borasalama, do you mean to say that we should have left Afghanistan alone and let the Taliban reek havock on the population? Is that your point? Borasalama, you live a peaceful life in the West without being a victim of cruelty and brutality. I would like to see you witness the brutality that people suffered under the Taliban with your own eyes and see your opinion afterwards. How could anyone in their right mind condone such a society?!
by Bohemian is back on November 17th, 2009
Not to mention those raped or burned alive if even vaguely suspected of sympathizing with opposition parties or ideas in Iraq under Saddam Hussein. The place to live in peace, as so many learned, was the UK, the US, France etc., and those people came in their droves. Once here they were allowed to build mosques and have a multitude of special treatments to make them feel welcome. What did we get in return?
by Who Is She on November 17th, 2009
Correct, who is she. Did you know that in the US muslims are allowed a 2 hour lunch break to attend Friday prayer at the mosque and yet in alot of muslim countries they are not allowed this. And in the UK, I think on Sundays, the public swimming pools are reserved for a couple of hours especially for muslim women to bathe away from the prying eyes of men and yet in many muslim countries they are expected to bathe altogether without separation. Women cannot wear western clothes in Saudi and yet they demand to wear the chador or hijab in schools in England and France.
by Bohemian is back on November 17th, 2009
All too aware of that and more. Many thanks for the Islam-qa link on rape by the way. Ironic that only you came up with anything that actually addressed positively the question I kept asking re. the Muslim stance on this matter. I think it's important though others here didn't think it worth addressing.
by Who Is She on November 17th, 2009
You're welcome. It is incredibly important. I totally agree.
by Bohemian is back on November 17th, 2009
looks like a meeting of the the like-minded in a mutual admiration club, just don't trip over each other in your defence of Islam and Muslims :)
by borasalama on November 17th, 2009
I see you have run out of sensible things to say borasalama. I am not surprised.
by Bohemian is back on November 17th, 2009
My questions were honest questions.
by Amorphous Blob on November 17th, 2009
ok, pick your biggest single problem with Islam.
by borasalama on November 17th, 2009
If you mean me, I just asked about your comments:
How has any non-Muslim kept any Muslim from living his or her faith the way it should be lived? Which Muslims are these, exactly? Where is there "hysterical fear"?
by Amorphous Blob on November 17th, 2009
AB it don't look like to me that what you've posted is YOUR biggest single problem with Islam.
by borasalama on November 18th, 2009
Evasive answer...A g a i n. When are you going to learn to reply to questions borasalam? This is the second time I have seen you aviod them and I am sure there are many more instances.
by Bohemian is back on November 18th, 2009
Borasalama, I'm sorry if I've given you or anybody that impression.
I'll try to answer that question, though... spread among multiple comments because longer ones sometimes don't post.
On a "religious" level, a minor quibble. I have the uninformed impression that, like some Christian denominations, Islam is too legalistic, too rule-based, too easy to get the impression of that those are the important things. (That wasn't quite grammatical, was it?) Yes, I realize that there are deeper meanings behind the outward actions, and, more importantly, I realize that what leads me closer to God is not what leads everybody else closer to God.
by Amorphous Blob on November 18th, 2009
If I were an alien observing Earth culture, Muslim beliefs would probably seem less wacky than those of many other religions.
About Muslims themselves: If they act according to the "good parts" of the Quran, they're wonderful people. But if they think that it's ok that women don't have the same rights as men (eg, in the example of their testimony in a rape case, as mentioned above), then they have sexist opinions, which are as bad as racist opinions, and which a just God would not countenance.
by Amorphous Blob on November 18th, 2009
And of course people who "grew up Muslim" and who call themselves Muslims but who plot or commit murder, are murderers. Yes, this can get into the whole discussion of what's murder vs what's justifiable defense.
My main problem with Islam as practiced is that many primitive Muslims are convinced that they must attack and kill those whom they perceive as enemies of Islam, and relegate non-Muslims to dhimmitude. This is a medieval attitude, which humanity has to evolve beyond.
by Amorphous Blob on November 18th, 2009
Somebody stated above, or on a similar thread, that when they see, for example, Palestinians literally dancing with joy in the streets on 9/11, they realize that many Muslims obviously approved of it, and, very understandably, react with anger and revulsion, which easily transforms to hate.
by Amorphous Blob on November 18th, 2009
I meant to mention earlier that the concept of a man who claims to be the last prophet leading his followers into battle and killing prisoners is foreign to most Westerners. When you throw in various other stories from the hadiths (eg, Muhammad torturing a prisoner), well, yes, it's kind of a reasonable defense to say "that conflicts with the teachings of the Quran, so it must not have really happened".
by Amorphous Blob on November 18th, 2009
But when Muslims accept other parts of hadiths from the same source, and when this behavior seems in rather in keeping with a prophet leading his men in battle (a true prophet of a loving God leading men in battle!?), you can understand how doubts could surface.
by Amorphous Blob on November 18th, 2009
You know, when I say to people 'tell me your biggest single problem with Islam and I will give it my full attention' it's almost guaranteed that they will reel out a whole list of things.
.
You see, it's not difficult to put together a list of contents for a book. That can easily fit into a page. To write up on each of the items in the contents list can take up a lot of pages, a lot of time, it ain't easy and I don't think I'm even going to attempt it.
.
So, ask yourself, out of all these mountains of problems that I see forming a barrier between people and Islam which is the tallest mountain? Then I'll see if I can come up with a good answer for you.
by borasalama on November 18th, 2009
I was just trying to give a complete answer. Gotta go; I'll answer this tomorrow during lunch, which is the only time I can devote much time to AB.
by Amorphous Blob on November 18th, 2009
c u manyana, inshallah
by borasalama on November 18th, 2009
I guess I'd agree with Antigone that it's "the large majority of modern terrorists loudly perform their terrorism in the name of the Islamic religion", and the fact that Muslims give "aid and comfort" to such mass-murderers by denying facts (such as the fact that the hijackers were jihadist Saudis), refusing to uncategorically denounce terrorism, and refusing to clearly answer questions about such topics.
by Amorphous Blob on November 19th, 2009
I was after a question on religion, really not people and politics. You can't argue with the theological viewpoint because I can quote HQ chapter and verse (5 and 32) and you can check that it condemns the taking of even a single innocent life, likening it to genocide.
.
Terrorism? Most people are influenced by sound bites and will repeat more or less what you've said. Those reflecting a little deeper realise it isn't as clear as it is made out to be. For starters there isn't a universally accepted definition of "terrorism", so we end up not knowing exactly what we're talking about. Secondly, where there's conflict there's more than one side, so you have to judge between them - instantly, as a lynch mob, or as a balanced court of justice. If the latter, you will first have to gather evidence on both sides, say, stated aims, action taken, damage caused. The sides are elected governments in various countries v unelected rebel groups. Hard work, but fair, unless you have a fairer way.
by borasalama on November 19th, 2009
What a twisted way of looking at things!
by Bohemian is back on November 20th, 2009
I take it you have a fairer way, Excal.
by borasalama on November 20th, 2009
Here we go again. Borasalama - Do you or do you not view it as wrong and evil (and indeed clearly an act of terrorism), to fly an aeroplane into a building to willfully kill people who are just going about their daily business or to blow up buses and trains to the same end? Is it ever justifiable to deliberately target citizens with a view to maximum damage of innocent people? Yes or no!! Don't evade the question or answer only with another question. Please have the honour and dignity of answering directly. I know you don't represent all Islam or every Muslim but I'm asking you directly as one man. Please have the courage to answer.
by Who Is She on November 20th, 2009
You're getting confused WIS. Your point is different, but I have no hesitation on it. Like I have said before I am TOTALLY against the killing of innocent people going about their daily lives, irrespective of who does the killing, whether it be rebellious suicide bombers on the ground or military stealth bombers from the air. Are you prepared to join me in this?
by borasalama on November 20th, 2009
Thanks for the answer, Borasalama.
You asked for the biggest Islam hurdle, and we gave it.
I don't believe that the actions of the terrorists are separable from their religion. Terrorist acts by other faiths are very rare. So, what is it in Islam that makes some people be such murderous fanatics about it? When combined with such evasiveness and word-parsing, it's a concern.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
Secondly, you know very well that:
1) Bombers, cruise missiles, or unmanned drones are striking what are believed to be, at the time, terrorist camps, hideouts, gatherings, or actual weapons-carrying fighters. We do not murder civilians except for the occasional sick individual. The military knows that it's inhumane and counterproductive.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
2)This is not comparable to mass-murder of civilians by Al Qaeda, mass torture (eg, drilling holes in heads with power drills) and killings of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians by militant Islamists.
3)We would not be in Afghanistan if we had not been attacked.
4)We would not be in Iraq if we had not been attacked, combined with (take your pick) mistaken or trumped-up evidence and the Bush Administration's idiocy.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
I personally believe that it's ignorant and easily-swayed people being brought up in a militant version of Islam, combined with the Middle Eastern cultures they grew up in. No, I don't know exactly how much we can "blame" Islam for this. But to pretend that such people are not murderers and terrorists, to explain it away, to shift the blame to the West, is disingenuous.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
OK, guys, I'm going to be out of town with no internet all week - I want this settled by the time I get back, OK? ;-) Have a good Thanksgiving if you're American, and give thanks whether you are or not.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
Happy Thanksgiving, (and if a Brit chick can wish ya that anyone can). Enjoy. We'll take it from here.
by Who Is She on November 20th, 2009
Bora, as Amo has already said, and as everyone knows, no stealth bomber has ever deliberately and specifically targeted civilians. While it is gratifying that you finally, categorically came out against something bad (interesting you can do this re. bombing but can't re. rape!), it is sad that you still imply that we're all at it. This is clearly not the Western policy but appears to be applauded by many of your compadres. Are you not ashamed sometimes to see your spiritual brothers dance in the street when people die in the name of Islam?? Tell us please. Also, if you would indulge a dumb infidel, please explain what solution would be taken in an ALL MUSLIM world (for argument's sake), if one nation flew planes into another's iconic buildings when full of innocent people. I'm guessing there would be retaliation and moves to neautralise the threat and any who harboured that threat, correct?
by Who Is She on November 20th, 2009
Well, AB, I did indeed ask to discuss criticism of Islam, but as I said the subject raised instead is people and politics.
.
Your points read very much like the points camp A would be making in its justification of what it was doing, what we need here for a proper balance, is someone from camp B, the target camp. I'm sure they (the "terrorsts"?) would have a very different tale to tell.
.
I know Islam fairly well, and I don't see any firm links between it and "terrorism". Islam has been around for centuries, but this phenomenon of "terrorism" is fairly recent.
by borasalama on November 20th, 2009
Would you agree that any religion is to be judged not only by scripture but also by those who follow it, represent it and act in it's name?
by Who Is She on November 20th, 2009
"interesting you can do this re. bombing but can't re. rape!" > WIS, are you that desperate to pin something on me. Would it help you sleep better if I said, "you're quite right WIS, I'm all for rape, how did you know"
.
Yes, I am saddened when
- people make provocative taunts like "in the name of Islam".
- a superpower makes such bitter enemies of ordinary people on the street that they will even applaud an attrocity against it
- a high ranking representative of a super power says 'those figures don't interest me' in response to a question about 20,000 civilians dead in hour 1 of Gulf War 1
- another high ranking representative of a super power says 'it's a price worth paying' regarding the deaths of Iraqi babies resulting from sanctions
.
"one nation flew planes into another's iconic buildings" > if this refers to the WTC then no nation did that, and yet whole nations were bombed in "shock and awe"
.
This is all very depressing, can we discuss religion and the HQ instead.
by borasalama on November 20th, 2009
OK, I'm on checking my email. To back up a step, I stated what's wrong w/ Islam from my point of view.
It IS possible to step back and judge fairly whether it's acceptable to murder 3000 innocent civilians; there is not a moral equivalence there.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
Regarding your answer to Who Is She, we don't know you, of course. We can't say to ourselves "Of course he doesn't agree with this middle eastern custom of 'honor killing' or 'it's ok to rape infidels", because we don't know you. Perhaps you're against having to defend yourself against such insinuations, but if we don't know you and you refuse to directly condemn it, it raises questions.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
What did the US to to make such bitter enemies of the people in the street? They're being whipped into this anti-US rage by hateful Islamists.
What has the US done against Islam? Supported Israel, yes, which shouldn't have been founded in the first place IMO. But to react from the attitude that therefore we are enemies of Allah is medieval in outlook.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
"Would you agree that any religion is to be judged not only by scripture but also by those who follow it, represent it and act in it's name?" > I don't think so. It would not be fair to judge Christianity by the beliefs of the Reverend Jim Jones which made him lead over 900 people to their deaths, with mothers feeding their babies poisioned Kool-Aid, would it?
by borasalama on November 20th, 2009
Gulf War 1 - the assault was on the Iraqi positions, not civilians. Revised death estimates are that about 20K Iraqi military died in the whole war. It doesn't help your position when you use such ridiculous numbers.
Well. We were defending the Saudi Arabian oil supply for the western world, and removing the barbaric (not too strong a word) invaders from the Muslim country of Kuwait. There were soldiers over there, with weapons that could kill people. Did we have an obligation to make sure that as many of them were killed, as us?
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
Sanctions: There was a UN food-and-medicine-for-oil program which the Muslim Saddam Hussein hijacked, resulting in the deaths of many Iraqi babies for his political purposes.
Shock and Awe - those were military strikes on the command structure of Iraq. What do you think a war is?
There just seems to be mountains of denial and hatred among the Muslims you hear about.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
From the limited question of why some people don't like Islam, it's plausible that the Quran's "warlike" parts have contributed to the terrorism that has caused thousands of deaths.
Past that, of course people of every part of the world and time can act horribly, and people's culture is inseparable from their religion. Is Islam any worse of an influence yhan Christianity would have been if the regions' religions were switched? Dunno - people would find reasons to hate in either case.
OK, now I'm really going - salaam.
by Amorphous Blob on November 20th, 2009
I don't think judgmental or arrogant attitudes endear one to others. Isn't it a bit audacious to talk to somebody as if you have them standing in the dock as an accused. The authoritarian assertion "if you don't condemn this it's evidence that you're part of it" sounds very abhorent and has a strong smell of the Spanish inquisition about it.
.
discussion can be more enlightening if there is mutual respect and personal negative comments are avoided.
by borasalama on November 20th, 2009
you'll have to excuse me AB I'm not an aspiring president, and sickening political games is not my cup of tea.
.
I read one of the opening lines in your post saying the US was "removing the barbaric (not too strong a word) invaders from the Muslim country of Kuwait" and I went oh not again. That's not how the leader of the "barbaric invaders" Saddam Hussein, saw it. The US armed him to the teeth and gave him the green light to do their work for them - INVADE Iran and help overthrow the regime there. The war was left to rage on for years but the guy could still not do it, the job was too big for him. He turned his attention to the much smaller Kuwait and successfully INVADED it. But this invasion was against US interests, and within a few months armies were mobilised to end his invasion.
.
Sorry AB, can't engage in any more discussion of dirty politics.
by borasalama on November 20th, 2009
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/God/chap6.htm Well perhaps you can comment on this Borasalama. This seems to be more up your street, so to speak. It appears that Mohammed either viewed Mary as part of the Holy Trinity or that he misinterpreted it as a tri-theistic religion. PS. I did notice a comment you made about the Muslim religion being the final religion for the whole of mankind. Why are you so determined that your faith is better than anyone elses and the answer for all human kind? This type of arrogance puts people off Islam altogether.
by Bohemian is back on November 21st, 2009
@Who is She: I found this article on Winston and Mohammedism. It
is a good read re his experience with Islam (starts around the 5th paragraph). It seems that some things never change.:)
by Bohemian is back on November 21st, 2009
I Googled Winston and Mohammedanism and found some interesting material. Thanks Excalibur.
by Who Is She on November 21st, 2009
Excal, TY. The verse in question is HQ 5:116 "And when God said, O Jesus, son of Mary! Is it thou who didst say to men, take me and my mother for two gods beside God? He (Jesus) said, I celebrate Thy praise, what ails me that I should say what I have no right to? If I had said it, Thou wouldst have known it; Thou knowest what is in my soul, but I know not what is in Thy soul; verily, Thou art one who knoweth the unseen" You will see there is no direct link with the trinity here. We know that the Catholics (there were no Protestants then) venerate Mary and regard her as the mother of God. This verse is clearly aimed at making them reflect. It has Jesus bearing witness in the highest court, the celestial court, in front of God Himself, denying that he claimed divinity for himself or his mother. So if this teaching didn't come from God or Jesus, who was responsible.
.
If I was the inventor and sole producer of diamonds and said to the producers of other minerals “you better switch over to my mineral, it is the best on all counts” it might be understandable to say “ignore him he’s arrogant” but if I mined my diamonds and anyone could mine them, it would be foolish to say “ignore him he’s arrogant” No? The HQ doesn't belong to Muslims it is addressed to the whole of mankind, take it or leave it, it is entirely up to you.
by borasalama on November 21st, 2009
I for one will leave it thanks. I feel no need for superstitions or the worship of gods. I have nothing against religion until it infringes on my life or inflicts suffering on, or stifles learning in, the world at large. If one religion's followers in the modern world are more oppressive or engage in more inhumane behaviours than others I'll challenge it or question those who follow it to see if there is any hope for some humanity or civilisation there. If I continually find none I take note, careful note.
by Who Is She on November 21st, 2009
WIS your leaving it is well within the scope of the HQ which says in HQ 18:29 "Say (to people) "The truth (the HQ) is from your Lord" Then he who wants to will believe (in it) and he who wants to will reject (it)"
.
You are also quite right to challenge those who do wrong in society, that too is within the scope of the HQ when it says in HQ 3:104 "Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting all to what is good, urging people to do what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: such are the ones who attain felicity"
.
keep up the good work
by borasalama on November 21st, 2009
@Who is She: Sorry, I meant to post this - http://www.islam-watch.org/AdrianMorgan/Winston-Churchill-Islamism.htm - although I expect you have already found it.:)
by Bohemian is back on November 22nd, 2009
Thanks Excalibur. I figured there was a link missing but found lots Googling. Thanks for posting this link.
by Who Is She on November 22nd, 2009
I dont know why you bother arguing at length with these muslim heathens.The shite they talk in trying to defend their horrible so called faith is unbelievable and every one of them is in denial at how brutal their faith is....allah pbu (piss be upon him)
by everton on November 24th, 2009
everton, You are truly in for hell on judgement day. Inshallah.
by Theby on November 24th, 2009
Not according to Richard Dawkins he isn't. In fact, he may well just be endowed with better equipment than you are Theby, ie, the gift of thinking for himself.
by Bohemian is back on November 25th, 2009
excal, I thought for myself when I reverted to Islam. Every day my mind is exorcising it's christian remnants and embracing Islam even more.
by Theby on November 25th, 2009
I would like to see you after living in Jordan for a few years as a muslim wife and then see how deep your love of Islam is, or perhaps Afghanistan as you seem to believe that the Taliban uphold Koranic principles. Don't lose yourself in foreign belief systems. You may well find there is nothing of you left.
by Bohemian is back on November 25th, 2009
And you are truly becoming a good Muslim Theby. I keep stumbling upon delightful posts from you all about how the Taliban are ay OK by Islam and killing Christians and Jews is ay OK 'cos it's in the Quran. Primitive and scary stuff. I couldn't help but notice your absence when the matter of rape was discussed; well, I say discussed, but I mean studiously avoided for the most part by the Muslim ABers. The more I am in direct contact with Muslims the more I see Islam as the most dangerous and unpleasant of all the world's religions.
by Who Is She on November 25th, 2009
@Theby: thinking for yourself is not something that you would be allowed to do in a traditional muslim family in the Middle East, Afghanistan or Indonesia for that matter. Women are not allowed to have opinions in traditional households. And you certainly would not be allowed to be conversing with men on the internet. Wake up an smell the coffee, Theby, before it is too late.
by Bohemian is back on November 25th, 2009
theby when i get to hell i will look allah in the eye and then shove a barge pole up his arse in the name of all the women he has terrorised since he was invented.I will then quite gladly rip his head off and shit down his neck
by everton on November 25th, 2009
Excalibur and Declic and Amo. Blob and Antigone and I (sorry if I've missed anyone), have tried reams of reason and debate and all to no avail, so, I have to say .... Everton, I think you've nailed it mate. I wasn't even anti Muslim much until I started really looking into it but it would seem the feelings against are indeed well placed in modern society. If you need a hand with that pole Everton ....
by Who Is She on November 25th, 2009
thanks who is she people need to see past the veil in which muslims put up and look at what these people are really practicing.The likes of theby who are converts are the worst as they have been blinded by this thing called islam and they cant see past it.The people born in third world countries who are born into the religion know no better ,bue westerners believing in it is just sad.
by everton on November 25th, 2009
WOW! these guys REEEEALLY, REEEEALLY HATE Islam. People should read their intolerant views and the graphic description of the violence in their minds. If that's what they'd do to Jehovah, one dreads to think what they'd do to a fellow human. It would no doubt pale into insignificance the hatred of the guy who stabbed a pregnant Muslim woman from a third world country EIGHTEEN times in full view of her little child and everyone in a law court in Germany until she slumped down dead.
by borasalama on November 25th, 2009
Yeah, we should all become peaceful, non-violent Muslims. LOL.
by Who Is She on November 25th, 2009
may the God that Jesus prayed to help us all get there, Aameen.
by borasalama on November 25th, 2009
Or a blue teapot perhaps. If people can't be good for goodness sake beware the gods they create and follow and kill for.
by Who Is She on November 25th, 2009
muslims use this site to try and convert people.They put themselves across god loving people , but in reality the faith preaches the opposite.The males of this religion have the women so brow beaten they just do as they are told or face the consequences.No god or prophet should have women treated as second class slaves as they are in a in a lot of countries.And these people in western countries look ay their faith with rose tinted glasses.To these people i say go live in a muslim country and live by their practices for a while and you will see how lucky you are to have your freedom of speech and your libertry.
by everton on November 25th, 2009
Everton, You use this site to communicate your evil hatred toward Muslims. You misquote surahs, tell lies and generally made a fool of yourself. The only people who appreciate your views are other ignoramus' with evil and hatred in their hearts as well. Muslims on this site answer valid questions asked of them. We do not try to convert people. You are a sad and angry man who deserves pity and perhaps, counselling.
by Theby on November 26th, 2009
That's right, Theby, throw the 'hate' and 'ignoramus' card at everyone when you have nothing better to offer. What is so sad is that you, not having lived in the muslim world, are the most ignorant about Islam of all the people here. Islam is only a small part of what is in the Koran, Islam is how the texts are interpreted and used in the world outside. As the saying goes, one's outward appearance reflects the state of one's soul.
by Bohemian is back on November 26th, 2009
Nothing better to offer! I ASKED THE QUESTION. I don't have to offer anything. Where have I said I have not lived in the Muslim world? Another lie from you. The Holy Quran IS ISLAM! You really have no idea do you? "Islam is how the text [Surahs] are interpreted......."??? Your thinking is becoming scrambled. Time to get back to your medication methinks!
by Theby on November 26th, 2009
I do not need medication Theby. But I know for a fact that you do and have had psychiatric treatment and it shows. That is a reflection of your soul. You have not lived in the muslim world either and that is obvious to everyone here.
by Bohemian is back on November 26th, 2009
Your accusations of 'hate' and 'lies' and calling people 'ignorami' are reflections of your soul too. If the Holy Koran is Islam then we better not refer to the 'Islamic world' then because, if the Koran is 'Islam' and 'Islam' is a religion of peace, it rather contradicts the violence existing throughout the Islamic world committed by muslims, doesn't it?
by Bohemian is back on November 26th, 2009
@ WIS you say some awful things at times but your last post is brilliant and can be the basis of a good intelligent discussion.
.
@ Evert, you're probably neither Muslim nor woman, so don't you think you should let these two groups speak for themselves? You speak as though you know much more about them than they do themselves, why, you even speak about their innermost intentions and feelings.
but, any Muslim reading your opening remark will know you're not right.
1- you wont find many Muslims here. I bet there are more Christians on AB than Muslims - EVEN in the Islam section!
2- Whereas Christians tend to be PROACTIVE in saving souls, a Muslim can tell you volumes about Islam, but it'll mostly be REACTIVE - either you've shown an interest in Islam or you've offended it.
.
So you know of a huge difference between Islam "in a lot of countries" and Islam "in western countries" which then, in your knowledge, is truer to the HQ?
.
@ Excal as you can see provocations can lead to wars (in your case verbal) "violence existing THROUGHOUT the Islamic world"? the biggest concentration are in Afghanistan and Iraq and the longest fuelled provocation is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Palestine (Christian and Muslim) to create Israel a state for Jews from all over the world. Some Muslims don't like what they see as big powers walking all over them, some Irish didn't either, nor do some Basque nationalists.
by borasalama on November 26th, 2009
What I find incredible in this whole discussion about Islam on AB is the assumption by you and Theby that you represent the Muslim World. You are both theoretical practitioners without practical experience. If the Koran is Islam, then the Bible is Christianity, so anything that goes on in the muslim world carried out by muslims is superfluous to you, right? In which case, so are the crusades and anything else carried out in the name of Christianity or any other religion for that matter.
by Bohemian is back on November 26th, 2009
Both you and Theby seem to live in bubble bath land where only you and the Koran exist and the odd hadith with total denial or ignorance of the realities existing in muslim countries (apart from, of course, the atrocities commited by outsiders in muslim lands). The fact that you deny the faults within the muslim world is no help to them at all. It is only those who recognise those faults and those who try to correct them that are doing service to their fellow muslims and not people like you who can only quote from black and white pages.
by Bohemian is back on November 26th, 2009
When you start to have compassion for those that suffer under oppressive systems and for those that are obviously denied human rights, will you be worth listening to. Those who boast of the good quality of their wine better make sure it is stored correctly.
by Bohemian is back on November 26th, 2009
Ex, I, as a Muslim and a thinking person DO have compassion for those that suffer under oppression. There is no better example of this than the plight of the Palestinians. Yes, I am on medication for major depression - something I am not (nor should be) ashamed of. Your dig at my mental state (of which you know nothing) is similar to your digs at Islam. You condemn on pure hatred. You say I have not lived in a Muslim world, where did you get this information? Don't ignore my last question, I want an answer! I am disgusted by your lies and innuendo.
by Theby on November 26th, 2009
As many here are 'disgusted' by you. You have not lived in the muslim world, Theby. And if you call me a liar once more I will report you.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
@Theby, Look at what you say here, 'Your dig at my mental state' and now look at your insult here (before I made reference to your psychiatric treatment, 'Your thinking is becoming scrambled. Time to get back to your medication methinks!' - Not only are you hurling insults but you are telling lies as well and then accusing the person you have insulted of doing the same to you.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
You should accept that your thinking is disturbed rather than expecting others to accept your twisted perspectives. Instead, you demand respect after all the abuse, filthy language, insults and lies that you throw at them. I am surprised that you have not been put in the penalty box by now.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
I got the impression Theby lived in Jordan but maybe it's just that her husband is Jordanian, or have I got this all wrong? Where do you live out of curiosity Theby?
by Who Is She on November 27th, 2009
theby you only go to prove my point that people who convert to islam are worse than the mad mullahs.You try and convince people to think the same as you .Unfortunately people like excalibur are not the same as the people who congratulate you and your way of thinking.And people who read this thread can make up their own minds on who is right.....you or the free thinking people like excalibur.....The only way you can put your point across is to quote from the hq or make derogitory remarks that there is something wrong with people who do not agree with you....And your favorite trick of making remarks about peoples grammar only goes to detach you from the ordinary person in the street who may not be as well read or as educated as yourself....while i am on this point i shall just point out to you that i am english and have diplomas in english literature and english language.I write so that anyone who reads my thread knows what i am talking about.
by everton on November 27th, 2009
unlike you i am not condescending and i dont try to prove how smart i am.And i find it hard to believe how someone like you has not only converted to islam but you go on the internet trying to convince people how good islam is ,as though you had been a muslim all your life.Theby wake up and smell the coffee.
by everton on November 27th, 2009
who is she me thinks theby lives in a glass house and throws stones
by everton on November 27th, 2009
Ex, Where is my "filthy" language? YOU are accusing me of telling lies and again I ask you, where are my lies??? Whereas you have been telling people I agree with killing christians and jews. AGAIN, I ask you, where have I said this?
Evert, Your diplomas have not helped you in spelling the word, "derogatory" correctly. "theby you only go to prove my point that people who convert to islam are worse than the mad mullahs." I would class the last sentence as derogatory and an insult - I take it you disagree?
You are both hypocrites.
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
WIS, I prefer not to answer your question. Nothing personal.
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
proves my point you have just done it again
by everton on November 27th, 2009
theby there is a very high percentage of muslim activists who are converts and have been brainwashed.....as goes to show when they are caught doing naughty things
by everton on November 27th, 2009
What have I just done again???
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
Correcting his English in lieu of any actual valid point. I hate poor English too but you did just play right into his hands there.
by Who Is She on November 27th, 2009
I was being facetious for goodness' sake! Don't be touchy.
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
@ Theby Ex, I, as a Muslim and a thinking person DO have compassion for those that suffer under oppression. No Theby, you do not. You have consistently damned, Jews, Christians and Americans on this site and have supported the Taliban throughout discussions. Your knowledge is based on what your husband says and your reading of the Koran and nothing more. What is disturbing is that your position is highly political.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
All information on AB is open to the world including the secret services. If you have not done damage to yourself with your extremist banter, you certainly will have to your husband/and or his friends. It is obvious that you are a novice in the muslim world because anyone who has had experience of it would not speak so openly about their extremist political beliefs. If these are the views of your husband, then the chances are his friends hold similar views and are involved or connected to extremist activities. You are, in effect, digging your own grave.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
And another thing, you think you are speaking for the whole of the muslim world. You are not. I will give you examples, I quote you, 'Muslims do not take interest from banks'. This is rubbish. And please do not tell me that those who take interest are not true muslims. You are likely to be torn apart in some muslim countries if you state this. 'Muslims do not listen to music'. This is a gross generalization. Again, do not tell me they are not true muslims. You are likely to be killed in many parts of the muslim world for saying this.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
And don't try and tell me you have lived in the muslim world. Anyone who has would not state the above.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
The sad thing about it is, that if you presented yourself as you are in many parts of the Islamic world, muslims would look on you with distain. The fact that you even cover yourself would make you a social reject in many areas of the muslim world. And please don't tell me that those who don't cover their heads are not true muslims. I don't buy that nonsense nor do a large percentage of muslims in the muslim world. Try to incorporate into your learning, knowledge of what is going on in the muslim world and then pass judgement. And don't make absolute statements about Islam. There are no absolutes.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
@WIS. As Theby has made this public information I feel I can fill you in: Theby is in her forties and married a 25ish year old recent Jordanian immigrant for whom she was trying to get immigration status. She has not been a muslim for more than a year and a bit, if that. Her knowledge of the muslim world comes from reading the Koran and what her husband says which she takes as absolute truths for the whole of Islam. She is fundamentalist, extremist, anti Jew, anti American and no doubt anti British, and pro Taliban. She is originally from New Zealand but now lives in Autralia.
by Bohemian is back on November 27th, 2009
Interesting, thanks. I would feel bad that Theby has had answered for her a question she felt uncomfortable answering herself were it not for the fact that all this was made public on AB - It never ceases to amaze me how open people often are with personal info. here but we all do it to the degree we feel works for us I guess. In this case Theby it does clarify a few things. Have you ever even been to the Middle East? Don't answer that if you don't want but just please understand that our experiences and perspectives are of relevance when very extreme views are put forward.
by Who Is She on November 27th, 2009
" Theby has made this public information I feel I can fill you in: Theby is in her forties and married a 25ish year old recent Jordanian immigrant for whom she was trying to get immigration status." - WRONG.
"Her knowledge of the muslim world comes from reading the Koran and what her husband says which she takes as absolute truths for the whole of Islam." - WRONG
'Muslims do not listen to music'. - It is written in the Holy Qur'an ergo it is not a generalization.
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
Not taking interest from banks (or any other financial institution) is one of the five main pillars of Islam. It is as important as praying five times a day. Muslims do not take (or give) interest.
"She is fundamentalist, extremist, anti Jew, anti American and no doubt anti British, and pro Taliban." - ONLY TWO OF THESE POINTS ARE CORRECT. No! Guess!
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
The absolute statements I have given are written in the Holy Qur'an or Hadith. You have no knowledge of these AND you have no knowledge of the collective Muslim psyche. This is obvious. I once stated that the Taliban seemed to have the upper hand as regards Afghanistan since the Russians couldn't beat them and now the Nth Americans are struggling. The fact that I pointed this out makes me pro-Taliban? I have stated my opinions and facts. I have been VERY careful on all categories not to incriminate myself with unpopular viewpoints. I am not stupid.
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
All you know about me is that I am a female Muslim who lives in Australia with a Jordanian husband. Period. Everything else you have stated is presumptuous on your part. I have not told you the viewpoints of any of my friends or my husbands. You have a molehill of information about me and have made it into a mountain of guesswork and innuendo. How do you know what I read or don't read? Again, guesses on your pathetic befhalf. And you have the minions believing you! They are even more pathetic than you. I must go now, it's prayertime.
by Theby on November 27th, 2009
Fighting with windmills again, Theby? Look carefully over your comments, answers and question. You obviously have forgotten how much personal information you have given about yourself. Unfortunately, once you put that information out there you cannot retract it and denying that you have said things will not make them go away.
.
You can state laws laid down in the Koran, (any literate fool can do that), but this does not mean it happens throughout the muslim world. Get experience and then preach.
.
by Bohemian is back on November 28th, 2009
'You have no knowledge of these AND you have no knowledge of the collective Muslim psyche.' You can make wild and false statements,Theby, all you like but it won't change the facts. There are people on this site that have a great deal more knowledge and experience of the Islamic world than you or your husband for that matter.
by Bohemian is back on November 28th, 2009
'A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.' Alexander Pope
'History shows that there is nothing so easy to enslave and nothing so hard to emancipate as ignorance, hence it becomes the double enemy of civilization. By its servility it is the prey of tyranny, and by its credulity it is the foe of enlightenment.' ~Lemuel K. Washburn
by Bohemian is back on November 28th, 2009
'To ignore the evidence, and hope that it cannot be true, is more an evidence of mental illness' William Blase
.
'Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.' Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.,
.
'To ignore evil is to become an accomplice to it.' Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr
Take heed, Theby. Until you have several years of learning and experience in the Islamic world, don't pretend you know more than others.
by Bohemian is back on November 28th, 2009
Your words have had such an affect on me. They have made me a stronger Muslim and even MORE determined to follow my Holy Qur'an and Hadith TO THE LETTER! Thanks ex. You have given me a good giggle.
If you ever need to learn about Islam, feel free to let me know. I have great information. Asalaamu Aleykom. Allahu Akbar.
UNSUB
by Theby on November 28th, 2009
maybe you are learning it from the wrong sources?
by SinnerSaint on November 28th, 2009
You are the last person I would ever consider learning anything from let alone Islam which I already know far more about than you. I can see right through your bravado Theby and so can a number of other AB members and I dare say the security services. I repeat these quotations which are very appropriate for you:
'To ignore the evidence, and hope that it cannot be true, is more an evidence of mental illness' William Blase
.
'Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.' Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.,
.
Perhaps you will take heed one day before it is too late.
by Bohemian is back on November 29th, 2009
@SinnerSaint: You are correct in your assessment. Let's hope she finds the right sources.
by Bohemian is back on November 29th, 2009
@Theby. The statements that you say are wrong above are taken according to what you have written about yourself on AB. Again, there is no point in denying them. Anyone can look back over what you have written and find them.
by Bohemian is back on November 29th, 2009
Excalibur
that wasn't directed to anyone but was a general comment :)
by SinnerSaint on November 29th, 2009
Exactly.
by ConservativelyLiberal on June 2nd, 2010
Excactly what?
by Bohemian is back on June 3rd, 2010
we're waiting Anonymous
by borasalama on June 3rd, 2010
I agree wholeheartedly with the answer. Sorry but some glitch popped up and it said there were zero responses, so I wasn't commenting to any of you.
by ConservativelyLiberal on June 3rd, 2010
ah that explains it, the new AB is good at telling you there's no comments when there are.
Now that you've seen the comments that the answer has generated, do you still think "exactly"?
by borasalama on June 3rd, 2010
I can say this much(without spending the entire day reading) Theby is about the absolute most ridiculously pro-Islam, anti-truth, persona I've ever seen on AB. His/her/it's inability to look at counter evidence and make a reasonable assertion about that evidence has made me pull my hair out in more than one debate. So I shall agree with whomever does not side with Theby, and I won't loose any sleep over it.
by ConservativelyLiberal on June 3rd, 2010
Add a comment...
by borasalama on June 4th, 2010
Add a comment...
by borasalama on June 4th, 2010
Add a comment...
by borasalama on June 4th, 2010
Add a comment...
by borasalama on June 4th, 2010
Anonymous, you have hit the nail on the head.
by Bohemian is back on June 4th, 2010
With Theby it's not hard.
by ConservativelyLiberal on June 4th, 2010
Agreed!
by Bohemian is back on June 4th, 2010
well, you've confused me a bit about yourself. On the one hand you're saying Theby's unable "to look at counter evidence and make a reasonable assertion about that evidence" and on the other hand you make a sweeping assertion yourself that "pro-Islam,[is] anti-truth" which makes me wonder whether YOU looked at counter evidence before strongly implying that Islam and truth are mutually exclusive.
Anyway, one thing that is enough to make one pull one's hair out is the user UNFRIENDLINESS of the new AB
by borasalama on June 4th, 2010
It's not a question of user unfriendliness borasalama. Why do you take everything so personally. It is a question of decent values which are the same in any religion. Theby has alot to learn about the Islamic world as do many muslims who were brought up in the US. Sweeping generalizations and absolute adherence to the word of the Quran is not the way many muslims live today. It does not mean they are any less muslim. Together with this she has obviously been exposed to extremism which is alien to a large percentage of the muslim world. She shows great ignorance in her interpretation of how muslims live. For these reasons and these alone she provokes reaction from intelligent, fair-minded Abbers who know that her interpretation of Islam in wrong. This has nothing whatsoever to do with unfriendliness. I have read alot of your comments and your knowledge of the Quran and Bible are exemplary. However, there is nothing like living or travelling in the Middle East, North Africa and Indonesia to further one's understanding of Islam.
by Bohemian is back on June 4th, 2010
Bor you have misread my statement. Theby is pro-islam, and anti-truth. Two totally different ideas. While my understanding of Islam is relatively limited(being raised christian) I do understand simple logic. Logic states that if what I base my conviction is wrong, then my conviction will be wrong as well. After 25 years of study I can say without a doubt that Judaism is a lie. Therefore what builds it's base off of that lie, must also be a lie. Therefore Christianity, and Islam are both lies as well. However, Theby can not maintain a plausible working thesis under any guidelines, Islamic or not. I guess what I'm getting at is that even if Theby was pro-evolution(something I believe is true) she would regard it in such a way as to make her own position false. So her being pro-Islam and her being a liar are not directly linked. Hope that clarifies.
by ConservativelyLiberal on June 4th, 2010
sorry EA I seem to have got you off on a wrong track. No I do not "take everything so personally". You'll have seen that from the way I've responded to some of the fierciest criticisms of Islam here on AB. My criticism was of the unfriendliness of the revamped AB. That's why I caled it USER unfriendliness and put the comment in a seperate paragraph. Anyway I totally agree with your observation that "absolute adherence to the word of the Quran is not the way many muslims live today" Alas, how true.
===============
Anony,
1 don't just say "After 25 years of study I can say without a doubt that Judaism is a lie" give us a few of your strongest discoveries to support your conclusion.
2 you claim that Christianity is based on Judaism but you do not support that claim. However, I'm not disputing your claim. In fact it is possible to argue that modern "Christianity" is a version of Judaism, Paul's version of Judaism. Jesus was a Jew. He did not come to teach Christianity. He neither invented the word "Christianity" nor ever heard of it in his lifetime. He came to teach what he saw as the correct version of Judaism. His teachings were aimed at reviving the spirit of the Torah, they were directed at the Jews and he preached in synagogues, as did his early followers. However, Christ's version of Judaism died soon after his departure from earth. No one follows it now. It is Paul's version that is now universally followed, but by a cruel twist of irony it is called "Christianity".
3 now I come to your admission that your "understanding of Islam is relatively limited(being raised christian)" if so then how did you conclude that Islam is based on Judaism? Was Mohammed a Jew, did he come to revive the Torah, did he come to address the Jews, did he preach from synagogues? Please enlighten.
by borasalama on June 5th, 2010