The Bible teaches that God is good by nature, but all humans have the free will to turn away from Him and be sinful. By this logic, wouldn't sin be impossible if humans didn't have free will, therefor making human free will the root of all evil?

I like my free will lol. My free will did turn me away from god, seeing as I have no proof that he exists

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me 2...no proof watsoever...guess he should have thot twice
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by PixieDust_and_DemonHorns on July 20th, 2008
No proof? You wouldn't accept proof if you saw it.
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by LarryH54 on August 21st, 2008
Show me
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by PixieDust_and_DemonHorns on August 22nd, 2008
Im waiting for this "proof"
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by DiSTurBiA on August 22nd, 2008
Proof from scripture... oh, wait, you won't accept that, it's been 'corrupted'.
Proof from such things as beauty in the world, the way the laws of the universe work together... oh, wait. that's just opinion and 'chance'.
Nevertheless, for centuries, brilliant people HAVE accepted such as proof. Too bad that's not good enough for you.
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by LarryH54 on August 22nd, 2008
um no, speculation isnt fact, nor truth. Brillient people have been brainwashed into thinking it is truth
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by DiSTurBiA on August 22nd, 2008
Larry: Ever heard of Occam's Razor?
The explanation involving the least assumptions is usually the correct one.
And God, at least the sort of God laid out in religious scriptures, certainly involves more assumptions that virtually all of the alternatives.
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by Mr. Meaulnes on August 22nd, 2008
Of course, Occam's razor also prohibits chance from being the prime mover of the universe. The odds of all the laws and constants of the universe synergetically coming together to allow life to form are ridiculously long. Nevertheless, your faith in it remains quite unshakable.
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by LarryH54 on August 22nd, 2008
I disagree.
Presuming the universe to be random involves much, much less in the way of assumptions than presuming it to be governed by a higher-power.
Notice, we can observe chance, and we can observe that the laws of the universe come together. We cannot observe that they are governed by a God.
In other words, just because there is some degree of illogical and unknown involved in a Godless universe, that doesn't make God, with all the specifics and quirks and anthropomorphism given "Him" by religion, a more logical option.
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by Mr. Meaulnes on August 22nd, 2008
well said Roland, finally someone thinking with at least a modicum of intelligence, and logic
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by DiSTurBiA on August 22nd, 2008
Thanks, nvg70.
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Oh, and also, I thought of another big hole in your argument regarding assumptions about a random universe: If the universe has been going on infinitely, which speaking as one Agostic, I assume it has in some form or another, then it's perfectly reasonable to believe that those random processes would eventually fall into some sort of order, because over the full course of a random and infinite universe, every concievable outcome not only could, but in theory almost certainly *Will* happen.
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by Mr. Meaulnes on August 22nd, 2008
In a finite and random universe, the chances of order coming together would me small.
But in an infinite and random universe, the chances of that, or any given thing, happening at some point in space-time, are %100.
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by Mr. Meaulnes on August 22nd, 2008
Yes, unfortunately, science is ill suited for detecting non repeatable phenomena and personalities. And God is far more than a phenomena. Science is a powerful tool. But it cannot answer every question in the human heart.
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by LarryH54 on August 22nd, 2008
If you want to talk about faith, or "Questions in the Human Heart", go somewhere else.
I do believe that God has a relative, subjective form of existence. That God exists for believers, because people control their reality through their perceptions.
But objectively and scientificially, which are the terms we're on here, no dice.
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by Mr. Meaulnes on August 22nd, 2008
Go somewhere else??? Maybe you should re-read the original question. If anyone is off topic here, it's you.
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by LarryH54 on August 22nd, 2008
The original comment and answer here were regarding "Proof", "Proof" is a concept within the realm of objectivity and science, not faith or philosophy.
And we're not commenting on the question, we're commenting on the answer.
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by Mr. Meaulnes on August 22nd, 2008
right again Roland
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by DiSTurBiA on August 22nd, 2008
why is it i say i dont beleieve in god then i giant debate starts and i'm called unintelligent? and yes everyone got way off subject here at the end
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by PixieDust_and_DemonHorns on August 23rd, 2008
some on here think it's their life mission to try to convert people into their fantasies
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by DiSTurBiA on August 23rd, 2008
"Nevertheless, it does move." --Galileo
Now who is acting the bishop? And congratulating themselves for it?
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by LarryH54 on August 23rd, 2008
um thats you dude
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by DiSTurBiA on August 23rd, 2008
Y'know, people... we *Are* pretty pointless here.
Perhaps we could get back to main debate subject?
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by Mr. Meaulnes on August 23rd, 2008
please
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by PixieDust_and_DemonHorns on August 23rd, 2008

Yes, meaning that God could have avoided his don dying if he had just not given us free will.

The bible tends to fall apart with close scrutiny, this isn't surprising.

Comments

Maybe free will was the point? Would YOU rather have friends who chose to be friends, or robots who never had a choice in the matter?
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by LarryH54 on August 21st, 2008
Exactly, Larry. Free will *is* the point. Without, we couldn’t grow and life would be completely pointless. With it, we require a Savior to pay the natural price for our sins. Christ’s Atonement was part of the Plan from day one.
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by the Otter on September 15th, 2008
Who says we have free will. Free will is choice unconstrained by external agencies. Well we didn't choose to be born therefore any choices we make in life are not from free will, but just the limited options which follow a choice we didn't make, which is to exist in the first place.
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 26th, 2009
Actually, MRABSOLUTE, we *did* choose to be born. That’s why we have physical bodies and devils don’t: we chose mortality, they chose no mortality. Pretty simple, really.
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by the Otter on August 28th, 2009
Lol your superstition is baseless. Speak for yourself but I wasn't asked if I wanted to exist.
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 28th, 2009
What a cowardly excuse for choosing to refuse to acknowledge free will. And yet you don't choose to end this existence you so disdain
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by LarryH54 on August 28th, 2009
Cowardly? lol. I never said I wouldn't have chose to exist, but the definition of free will is choice UNCONSTRAINED by external agencies. Therefore any choice we cannot make is a constraint therefore eliminating free will. It is like me choosing where you go on holiday and then saying you have free will because once your in that destination you choose what you want to do. Logic and the definition of free will disagree with your idea of "free will".
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 28th, 2009
MRABSOLUTE, my beliefs have quite a significant basis: God Himself told me that they’re true, and He’ll happily tell you, as well; all you have to do is ask. May I ask what basis you have for your “superstition” that nobody asked you whether or not you wanted a physical body?

(Just an aside: I never said we were asked if we wanted to exist; that would be kind of impossible, since we wouldn’t have existed, to be asked.)
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by the Otter on August 28th, 2009
YOUR definition of free will might be completely unconstrained, but for normal people it's less strict. The simple quality of spontaneity is sufficient for most of us. We ALL have restrictions, but that doesn't mean we can't choose for ourselves. As they say, my right to swing my arm ends at the end of your nose. That doesn't mean I can't swing my arm.
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by LarryH54 on August 28th, 2009
Otter: I don't believe that we have free will which I might add is an absolute term therefore cannot be less or more strict larry. I claim no superstition which needs basis, I claim only the logical analysis of the situation, your views are some what affected by the "faith" you have chosen to follow which I might add has no significant basis, the bible relies completely on the word of its authors. Therefore is equal to the Qu'ran and all other "holy books". If you are hearing voices in your head it is more likely you are hallucinating than talking to some supernatural supreme dictator.

Larry: It is not my definition of free will, it is the literal definition of free will. Your analogy is inaccurate for this situation. What your claiming is more like, me deporting you to mexico without your permission and then saying you have free will because once your there you can do as you please.
The definition simply disagrees with what you are saying.
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 29th, 2009
MRABSOLUTE, you are correct that my views are affected by the faith I have chosen to follow, but your claim that the Bible relies wholly on the word of its authors is only true if one argues that its Author be God. I don’t care what the authors of the Bible say; I care what *God* says, and if He hadn’t told me that the Bible contains His teachings, I wouldn’t believe it any more than I do the Qur’ān.

More to the point, however, you seem to be ignoring the fact that your views are at least as affected as mine. Furthermore, I would argue that *your* faith is the one with no significant basis; mine is based not only on logical analysis (which it wholly withstands), but also carries the complimentary spiritual witness. Thus, my logical analysis is significantly more reliable than yours (which rests wholly upon the veracity of a single testator: you).

The bottom line is that God will talk to you, just as much as He talks to me; you just have to open your ears and listen. For this reason, I would *never* ask you to take my word for any of this; that would be *incredibly* ignorant course of action. My only request is that you find out for yourself—or, barring any willingness to do that, that you at least abandon your hubristic claim that since you don’t know something, that means that I don’t know it, either. ;-)

Thanks! :-)
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by the Otter on August 29th, 2009
lol. The only problem is god hasn't spoke to me despite my asking. Many people hear voices in their heads, It is by far not a basis for your claims. I am not relying on faith, I am just using the literal definition of the term. I apologize but when someone resorts to voices in their head as a basis for their belief arguing becomes some what useless and unreasonable. I can guarantee a Muslim would say the same thing. I am not claiming any piece of knowledge, no more than anyone else who knows the literal definition of free will.
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 29th, 2009
God isn't some delusional voice in ones head. It's a knowing that is in agreement with those in God's Will as well as Scripture. Pretending that it's a mental condition is simply ignorant.
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by LarryH54 on August 29th, 2009
Well isn't that what you do to all muslims who say they hear the voice of allah?
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 29th, 2009
As a matter of fact, no. That's another erroneous supposition on your part.
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by LarryH54 on August 29th, 2009
Ok, what else would you call it. Because your religion does not warrant a belief in allah. So what would you say to muslims who say they hear the voice of allah. I know I would say it is an illness or mental issue. Hearing voices in ones head is a clear sign of mental illness and hallucination. There is no ignorance in that statement, psychology 101 will tell you that.
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 29th, 2009
There’s truth in every religion, MRABSOLUTE, and probably falsehood, as well. The key is figuring out which parts are which.
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by the Otter on August 29th, 2009
Religious experiences do not include that kind of voice. It is far more subtle. And as far as the muslims go, I have no doubt they are hearing someone. I just think their frequency is different. Satan can speak too, you know.
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by LarryH54 on August 29th, 2009
I've heard the sort of audio hallucinations you're talking about when I was tired or near sleep. That isn't it.
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by LarryH54 on August 29th, 2009
Larry’s got that right. I expect it’s *extremely* rare that God’s actual, physical vocal chords produce sound that reaches our mortal ears. Goodness knows, I personally don’t recall any such sound reaching mine.
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by the Otter on August 29th, 2009
Without gods actual voice reaching your mind or ears, how else could he talk to you. The random events in your life are not the words of god. Therefore all you are doing is claiming with no basis that chance events in your day to day life is god talking to you.
And otter if god hasn't spoken to you what about this: "i care what *God* says, and if He hadn’t told me that the Bible contains His teachings, I wouldn’t believe it any more than I do the Qur’ān." If he didn't speak to you with his voice how else did he tell you lol. Surely not through the bible, if so then you could apply the same basis to the qu'ran because all religious books say god says its true. It's circular reasoning, the bible is true because it says it is. Your basis now relies on the word of the bibles authors and even the bible acknowledges they are mere humans just like the authors of the qu'ran.
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 30th, 2009
Forget it Otter, we're trying to describe light to a blind person.
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by LarryH54 on August 30th, 2009
Or your trying to describe blind faith to someone with reason. You can't expect me to just take your word for all this and so far you havent provided an ounce of evidence your just spouting opinionated statements and claiming it is fact, you have my empathy, I too was once snared by the false hopes and threats of religion.
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 31st, 2009
That’s because we *can’t* convince you, MRA, nor is it our intention to try. Even if we did somehow manage to convince you, it would be a hollow victory, because we’d have turned you into an ignoramus (which doesn’t help anybody).

My faith is not “blind,” MRA; it’s based on undeniable evidence. Fortunately, I can’t force you to believe me. The best I can do is to tell you what I know; from that point, it’s up to you. I’ll be happy to teach you *how* you can know—not just believe, but *know*—whether or not I’m full of crap, but it’s still on you to use those tools to figure it out, for yourself.

If you need anything, you know where to find me. :-)
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by the Otter on August 31st, 2009
Use what tools? my imagination? Is it not coincidental that your evidence is something you cannot show or prove to anyone else but you just "know" lol. Do you realize how common that phrase is from those of religion, they just know. They have seen the evidence but they just happen to not be able to show it to anyone else.

And ok I will take you up on that, "teach me how I can know" but as soon as the word faith (i.e accepting something without actual substantial backing) comes up I quit. I'm looking for facts not things people merely accept to fill the gaps in their understanding of the universe.
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 31st, 2009
Well, I’m sorry then. I don’t deny that there are gaps in my understanding of the universe, but it sounds like you’ve got a pretty gaping hole, there. Faith is power—the power by which the universe was created. I can help you tap into that power (as many scientists do), but you’ve got to meet me halfway.
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by the Otter on August 31st, 2009
I am not claiming that I don't have gaps in understanding. Just that I have not decided to fill them with immovable unprovable fallacies.
By what do you mean meet half way. I will judge things with reason as long as we stick by that then we should be fine.
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by MRABSOLUTE on August 31st, 2009
Well, let’s take a step back and look at this scientifically: light displays characteristics of both a wave and a particle. We don’t which it really is—or even if it’s some as-of-yet undefined third option—but we can still study light.

Einstein’s Theory of Relativity seems to contradict certain aspects of Quantum Mechanics, and we have yet to conclusively account for this seeming impossibility. Yet we still use Relativity and Quantum Theory independently, confident that someday, someone will work out all the bugs.

The point I’m making is that there’s plenty of natural forces out there, that we don’t entirely understand—and probably even many that we don’t even know exist. I submit that faith is no different than light or quantum theory: we’re still working to fully understand them, but that doesn’t keep us from taking advantage of what we *do* know.

So, by asking you to meet me halfway, I’m saying that I am *not* asking you to abandon the truths you already know; we all know different things, and we all—myself, very much included—are capable of learning something new. What I’m saying is that I need you to at least *consider* the possibility that I might know something you don’t. If you can just trust me enough to accept that there *could* be something to what I’ve been saying, I’ll trust you to figure out whether or not there is.

Deal?
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by the Otter on September 1st, 2009
I accept the possibility but it is not a fact without conclusive evidence. Quantum mechanics and einstiens theory of relativity have observative and experimental evidence to back the main bulk of its claims up. The bible has nothing but its own word.
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by MRABSOLUTE on September 1st, 2009
Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to you; I was extra busy at work, preceding vacation; and now on vacation. I’m actually getting ready to leave for home, so I’ll have to make this brief and come back later.

The point, MRA, is that I realize that a lot of people do have the opinion that the Bible is true because the Bible is true because the Bible is true. I, however, take the position that that’s just ignorance. In other words, I think we agree on that point.

What I need to know, from you, is if you’re willing to give an hour or so of your life, to learn how to learn how faith works (as far as we understand it, anyway). I’m sure there’s somebody in your area that would be willing to spend that time with you. (The Church of Jesus Christ has no paid ministry, btw; it’s strictly volunteers.)

Let me know if you’re willing/interested, and if so, I’ll let you know how to get in touch with someone.

Thanks! :-)
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by the Otter on September 14th, 2009
I dont know what revelation you can bring that I haven't heard before, i have been to churches and spent time with a christian friends family. But what the heck if you think you can convince me I will sure let you try...
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by MRABSOLUTE on September 14th, 2009
Hey, MRA. I’ve pretty much gone inactive on Answerbag since I last wrote. I’ve come back several times since then, trying to find this thread, but have been unable to do so until now. (It had dropped off my Recent Activity list.) For this, I am truly sorry and ask your forgiveness, particularly on a matter of such import.

The revelation I’ve been referencing is not any revelation that you’d have heard somewhere; it’s the revelation that you personally receive. Every one of us has the right to receive revelation, and belief in the absence of said revelation is what we often call “blind faith”—a concept that wholly deserves the bad rep it receives. True faith is power, and power with a basis at that.

My recommendation is as I said before: if you can spare an hour of your life to start figuring out whether or not I’m full of crap, set up an appointment at http://tinyurl.com/miss-contact . If you’re interested, there’s also plenty of other information on the site (cheesy though some of it may be), and there’s even a live chat feature under the “Ask a Question” link. (They try to cover it 24/7, so even if you’re reading this at 3:00 AM, you’ll probably find someone there.)

The point, MRA, is that I would never try to “convince” you of any of this; even if that were possible, it wouldn’t do you any good. The only One that could really “convince” you is God Himself, through the power of the Holy Ghost—and only you can decide to give Him the chance.

Good luck, MRABSOLUTE, and God bless—really. :-)

Peace!
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by the Otter on October 25th, 2009
I thought I had replied to this but I guess the comment didn't go through, sorry for taking so long to reply. I checked out that site and saw the regular christian teachings I study in school as part of my philsophy A level. I know the word of the bible I also know the stories the problems the characters and a small part of its history (that is so far at least salvation history).

It is not the word I am searching for, that is old to me. It is something to validate it; and so understandably I think, the first link I clicked on was "how can I know this is true". I was severely surprised at the lack of logic and complete lack of common sense displayed on the page.

Right at the top it headlined: “I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

Continued....
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 5th, 2009
The headline pretty much said, you have to ask god if these things are true, which doesn't seem so bad at first glance until you see the catch. You have to "ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in christ". Now the first two are not that bad, its the having faith in christ part which ruins the whole page.

So before god will tell me whether his message is true and that it is the bible, and prove that he exists. I have to hold a belief in him. No rational person can honestly do that, I can't hold a belief in a statement like that when it has no basis at all. It is unreasonable to ask one to believe something before the facts and evidence is presented. It is alike me in court saying if you believe that this man killed this other man then I will show you the evidence. It doesn't make sense.

I recently attended a group called the Alpha group, a christian thing. And I got the same thing I always get, the existence of god is presumed and not proved. Sorry.

Peace.
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 5th, 2009
Hey, MRA. No problem on the long response time; goodness knows I was quite guilty of that. I’m also well aware of the apparent logical fallacy you’re referencing, as I too was practically atheist before learning what I now know. It’s actually pretty simple, really. When I first prayed—which, by the way, was about two months before I knew of this challenge—it was *not* with a knowledge that God was there; rather, it was operating from the assumption that *IF* God were there—and that was a BIG “if”—He would hopefully be willing to answer me. In fact, my exact words were:

“God, I don’t know if you’re there; and if you are, I don’t know if you’re listening; and if you are, I don’t know if you care; but I’m sorry.” …and then proceeded to list everything I could think of that He might not be happy with. The point is I *didn’t* hold any belief in Christ, except inasmuch as I believed that *IF* He actually existed, I hoped He would be the way I’d heard He is.

The Lord spoke of faith like unto a mustard seed, and that’s a great comparison. There was also a prophet named Alma, who lived in the Americas, less than a century before Christ’s birth. He too used a seed to represent a part of the process, and you can read his discourse in the 32nd chapter of his book: http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/32/26-43#26 .

I don’t know if that will help any, but it’s really the best I can do. I know from firsthand experience that the seemingly circular logic isn’t really as circular as it sounds; if all you have is enough faith to sincerely *try* to figure it out for yourself, that’s a start—and a start is all you need.

Peace to you, too! :-)
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by the Otter on November 9th, 2009
You know it is a shame we are disagreeing. You do seem like a kind and honest person. I have apologised before, and I have asked god to speak to me to reveal his presence to me. It seems that god just doesn't answer some of us.

I am ok with that though. I guess I will make it up to all the people I have wronged instead of god. I mean if I hurt someone it is them I should apologise to not god. I don't need god in my life, I dont have an empty space in my heart. I am content knowing I can't use prayer as a scapegoat for my wrong doings.

If god exists he doesn't want to talk to me, and thats ok because after all the times I have tried I dont want to talk to him now either.

Peace to you, and have a nice day.
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 9th, 2009
I hear you, man, and you’re totally right: if you hurt someone, you definitely need to apologize to that person. That’s repentance in a nutshell: you do your best to fix whatever you did wrong. If I rob a bank and later want God’s forgiveness, I kind of need to give the money back, first. ;-)

You also seem like a very kind and genuine person, MRA, and I guess that’s one of the things I like about so many atheists: I may not agree with your theology, but I generally find atheists to be both more intelligent and less hypocritical than a lot of the ostensible “Christians” I run into.

God will reveal Himself to you, MRA; I can honestly promise that. In fact, He’s probably already trying to do so. As I mentioned earlier, the problem isn’t that He doesn’t reveal Himself; it’s that we each need to learn how to recognize the Holy Ghost by which He invariably communicates. That’s why I recommended you meet with your local missionaries: their job is to help you recognize that influence, so you can recognize it again in the future.

Take me, for example: the first prayer I mentioned in my last post resulted in an extremely spiritual experience, but it took me years to fully comprehend what had happened (if I even do now). Frankly, I didn’t really know *what* had happened; I just knew that it had been positive. It wasn’t until a few months later—when a pair of young missionaries first showed up on my doorstep—that I figured a few things out. I didn’t tell them about my experience until much later, but as they helped me have a similar experience (and properly identify it), I realized how familiar it already was.

The ball is in your court, MRA. I can’t make you go down this path, and I wouldn’t if I could; that’s not my place. But please do consider the invitation. It only takes an hour or so of your life to meet with your local missionaries, and if you decide they’re full of crap, just send them packing; they’ve got better things to do than waste time harassing disinterested parties. ;-)

Laters! :-)
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by the Otter on November 10th, 2009
Well first of all I hold no theology for you to disagree with...?

Second of all I have listened to many preachers, went to church met with church groups listen to the best christian debaters out there at least best debaters known. I have listened to almost every christian who wants to talk to me about god, I have listened to every argument put forward to me as proof of god. I really don't see what else a couple missionaries could say that I haven't heard.

For every christian who has ever spoken to me their "revelation is an untestable unprovable unlikely exaggeration of a traumatic or important and psychologically stressful chance event.

Peace.
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 10th, 2009
Hello again. :-)

First of all, if you’re an atheist, your theology is “There is no God.” Given our conversation to this point, I’ll assume you already know that I don’t agree with that, right?

Secondly, missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ aren’t called to prove God exists. I suppose a few might try, but that is *not* what they’re called to do (nor do I think they—nor anyone else—would be particularly successful). We’re not talking about professionals here; they don’t get paid for their labors—not even living expenses!—and most of them have little-to-no religious training (aside from the obvious, e.g. going to Church). What they *are* called to do are just three simple steps:

A) Teach the truth.

B) Let the Spirit testify.

C) Help the listener recognize that Spirit.

That’s it. If the missionaries are doing their job, there shouldn’t be any arguing, debating, etc.. In fact, that’s part of the reason they’re untrained: so they *can’t* do that.

Like I said, give ’em an hour or so. I promise you that it’s worth it—as are you. :-)
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by the Otter on November 10th, 2009
Ok well to tackle what you said.

One: Atheism is a lack of belief in god, strong atheism is the belief that there definately is no god. Atheism doesn't hold any beliefs only strong atheism or you may hear it be called positive atheism. Calling atheism a theology or religion alike is like calling bald someones hair colour, or saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. Theology is a school or system of religious beliefs therefore nothing to do with atheism or even strong atheism as that is only a single belief not a system.

Two: I have mentioned before I am doing a philosophy course at A level. I know the stories and the word of the bible already, so we can eliminate the missionaries first aim.

Three: Surely the spirit doesn't need to have missionaries there to help it testify, is it crippled or weak? I doubt it. If it is what it claims to be surely it could testify without the missionaries.

Four: Is the spirit that hard to recognize? Surely if its so great one could recognize it.....
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 10th, 2009
Easily. Therefore there is no need for missionaries at all.

I did as you said, I asked god with the "if" clause in there. If he would forgive all my wrongdoings and all my "sins" as you call them and embrace me or fill me with the holy spirit what ever. You know what happened? I got hungry, got something to eat then brushed my teeth and went to bed. It was utterly disappointing as usual. I try and try on the credit of christians words over and over again and god just doesn't seem to be awake... Or he is just too lazy. Or he doesn't exist....

Peace
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 10th, 2009
One: makes sense. Thank you.

Two: the missionaries’ job isn’t to teach you the Bible; I’m sure they’ll use the Bible from time to time, but the Bible is only a tiny portion of the truth. If you really think that *any* of your fellow beings on this planet couldn’t teach you something or other, I expect that you are sadly mistaken (not to mention a bit conceited). ;-)

Three: look back at my story, MRA. You’ll notice that the Spirit testified to me *months* before the missionaries showed up, but it wasn’t until the missionaries came that I realized it. You’ve probably experienced A) and B) many times in your life, but without C), you don’t realize it. I know I certainly didn’t.

Four: Father sent us here to learn to be like Him. Part of that involves learning to recognize righteousness and act on it, just like He does. I understand your frustration in thinking that the Spirit isn’t easy to recognize, but it’s like any skill: it takes practice, and you can’t even practice it if nobody teaches you how to do it, in the first place.

If God just gave us skills without any effort on our part, there would be no growth; and without that growth, this life would be completely pointless: we’d return to Him pretty much exactly as we were when we arrived. (In fact, this was Lucifer’s plan: give it all to us, sans effort. This was rejected as untenable, and its rejection is what led to the “War in Heaven” mentioned in the Bible.)

Our Father in Heaven is neither lazy nor asleep, MRA; He just wants us to grow up to be like Him, and He’s proscribed the most efficient way for that to happen.

As always, peace to you as well. :-)
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by the Otter on November 11th, 2009
Two: If I am conceited and mistaken to expect my fellow human beings to be able to teach me something how would those missionaries teach me this "skill" you refer to as recognizing the holy spirit?

Three: If these experiences are not beyond earthly explanation then the other explanation is far more likely. Let me give an example to clarify my point. If I find a ten pound note, then it is far more likely that chance and opportunity caused me to find it at that one particular point in time rather than the holy spirit making the ten pound note out of nothingness, agreed? Well if I have experienced A and B they would have to be supernatural or atypical experiences otherwise the earthly explanation would be far more suitable to explain the experience.

Therefore if my experiences of A and B were supernatural or unexplainable by earthly measures (science maths chance whatever) then surely I would recognize that. But I have had no such experiences. Give me an example? that would help.

Peace
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 11th, 2009
Hello again. :-)

First of all, I want you to know that the wink following my “conceited” statement was very intentional; it was intended to imply that I *don’t* think you conceited. Sorry for any offense.

Regarding 3), you are again correct. I personally think those that claim God is behind every tiny little occurrence in their lives are severely delusional. It’s been said that God takes a more managerial than “hands-on” role in human events, and while I don’t think that’s exactly accurate, there is a certain amount of validity to it.

God isn’t some distant, etherial, mysterious Being; He’s our Father, and He loves us. However, like any Father, He recognizes that He can’t do everything for us. He will step in when necessary, particularly if we specifically ask Him to. However, in His seemingly infinite wisdom, He also knows that there are times when He needs to step back and let us do it on our own—whether He likes it or not.

It is impossible that He somehow encouraged that ten-pound note to fall out of someone’s pocket or purse such that you would find it? Of course not; He could certainly do that, if there were some specific reason that He needed to do so. However, you’re absolutely correct: it’s *much* more likely that it was a matter of chance, especially if you haven’t explicitly requested that He help you meet a genuine need (e.g. your children are starving). In the words of Douglas Adams, “If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidæ on our hands.”
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by the Otter on November 12th, 2009
Now let’s take a very similar situation that really occurred in my life. As a Christian, I have covenanted to recognize God’s hand in my life by using a tenth of my increase for His purposes. In return, He has covenanted to bless me commensurate with this display of faith in Him. However, there have been points in my life where, due to my own financial situation, this commandment has been somewhat more difficult to keep. I thus share the story of one of those times in my life:

On this particular day, I had recently received a paycheck for about $1,000 (I don’t remember the exact figure, but you get the idea), so I needed to tithe about $100. The problem? I only had just enough left in my checking account to cover the “bill.” By writing a check to the Church for $100 (or whatever), I would be left with less than a dollar in my account. After asking Him for guidance, I knew that I must write the check for the full amount, consequences notwithstanding. That Sunday, I turned in this tithing check, confident that despite my <$1 balance, all would turn out for the best.

The next day, I went to the store for some food. (I did have a credit card, just not the money to cover the bill.) I made my purchase, returned home, and discovered that I had somehow lost my day planner between the register and the car. I quickly called the store to ask if it had been turned in; surprisingly, it had. As such, I made my way back over there to pick it up. As I opened my planner to make sure nothing was missing, I saw something that hadn’t been there before: tucked into the front flap was a $100 bill, apparently left there by whoever had found it and turned it in.

Now let’s return to Occam’s Razor: is it *possible* that, on the day after I feel I was instructed by God to give my last $100 to His Church, I just *happened* to lose my planner, and it just *happened* to be found by someone that was honest enough to turn it in, and that person just *happened* to slip almost the exact amount I had tithed, into the flap? Sure, it’s *possible*. Is it *possible* that the person that found the planner just *happened* to be someone involved with the Church finances, and that person just *happened* to sense what a sacrifice that check had been for me, and that person also just *happened* to have an extra $100 lying around that he felt comfortable parting with? Sure, it’s *possible*. However, I personally think it’s more likely that a loving Heavenly Father, knowing the intents of my heart, somehow guided events in some tiny, imperceptible way in order to teach me a very important lesson: one that, even 15 years later, still comforts me and helps guide my decisions for good. *This* is the kind of thing that, although I can’t prove it to you, forms yet another tiny patch in the quilt of my ever-growing faith.
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by the Otter on November 12th, 2009
I have to give it to you, you are a smooth talker. You do have a talent I think there. I don't know if thats anything to do with your job or what ever but just thought it was worth a mention.

You see the problem arises in all of that story when you decide that god helped it. Yes the chances of that may be slim but the chances of our existence are slimmer yet that is not reason enough to attribute it to the supernatural. It is nice when something good happens in your life to attribute it to a higher power. It is comforting and gives one a direction to aim their gratitude. But the problem is your just choosing to believe it was god. It may have been several other things. Chance being the dictating factor in all of this. The problem is if you attribute any slim0chance event to god then you are left with a bit of a contradiction. Biologically the chances are insanely small of me spontaneously combusting but if I do does that mean it is god?....
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 12th, 2009
No I think not. It would be much more intelligent to explain it due to the chemical imbalance blah blah blah (where the blahs are I would insert the cause of spontaneous combustion but I dont know it). Good and bad slim-chance events happen every day but they are not impossible without god, you are just choosing to believe it was god lending a helping hand. But this idea is negated by all the people who were not fortunate enough to come across a positive slim-chance event. For example: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

Now another problem that arises is, why doesn't god heal amputees? This question is of extreme importance because without supernatural intervention it is seemingly impossible to regenerate another leg, I'm sure people have prayed for such a thing to happen. God only seems to help when chance could help too. Never when there is no chance, only when there is a slim-chance. Attributing slim chance events to god is no different than wishful thinking...
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 12th, 2009
You would like to think it was god and therefore you do. But that doesn't make it valid. Now I am not saying your wrong I dont claim certainties. I am saying I don't know but that is not reason enough to believe. I'm sure there have been even more extreme slim chance events that have happened to people like they prayed just before they went out to work to have a snow day because if they went in without the work they were supposed to complete they would be fired and their children would starve and die. None of it is based on no chance events, only slim-chance. These slim chances attributions to the supernatural occur in ever religion. Islam, Christianity,Judaism. It is not a new thing, man has been explaining the slim chance events with the supernatural for a long long time.

Peace
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by MRABSOLUTE on November 12th, 2009
The bottom line is there’s *never* going to be a situation where there is absolutely no other explanation than the so-called “supernatural.” Even “hard science’s” observations can’t produce a scenario with only one possible explanation; we just use the scientific method to determine what seems to be a consistent outcome and then take it on faith that we’ve reached the right conclusion. Often we have; sometimes we haven’t, and it’s left to future generations to fix our misconceptions. But we do our best.

Do I know everything about God? Of course not. But I know a lot, and I’m trying to share it with you. It all comes back to you, though: unless *you* do the experiment, *you’ll* never know. And that’s what this mortal experience is all about.

HTH!
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by the Otter on November 12th, 2009
Sorry… that last post was meant to be the end of my previous train of though. I had to step away and yours hadn’t shown up here yet. Reading now. :-)
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by the Otter on November 12th, 2009
Regarding your last few posts, MRA, I don’t see anything I disagree with. That’s kind of what I was saying earlier: there is no way to prove to the unbeliever that God is involved in x, y, or z; nor is there any way to prove to the believer that He wasn’t. We see—or don’t see—what we want to. That’s why, throughout this entire discussion, my goal has not been to convince you I’m right: even if I managed to do so, it wouldn’t you any good.

What I am saying, MRA, is that you—like everyone else on this planet—need to find out for yourself. To that end, I’m trying to give you the tools you need to do so. Your local missionaries should be amply equipped to help you, since A) they currently carry the specific ordination to do so; and B) they would actually be in your presence and could thus point out when the Holy Ghost is testifying therein. (It really is that obvious.)

Like I said, my friend, it‘s all on you. You’ve got my testimony, you’ve got the web site where you can request more information. I’m certainly happy to continue our discussion, if you like, but the ball is firmly in your court. My only exhortation is that you can’t win if you don’t pick it up and play.

:-)
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by the Otter on November 12th, 2009

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The Bible teaches that God is good by nature, but all humans have the free will to turn away from Him and be sinful. By this logic, wouldn't sin be impossible if humans didn't have free will, therefor making human free will the root of all evil?

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The Bible teaches that God is good by nature, but all humans have the free will to turn away from Him and be sinful. By this logic, wouldn't sin be impossible if humans didn't have free will, therefor making human free will the root of all evil?

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