The pervert-murderer?

Both, the first if he is truly remorseful, (if not then he's booked himself a place in hell) and the second because in his ignorance he still followed a moral path

exactly what I have been questioning in my head with religion for a long time...I have no answers..but your question is excellent..I'll be interested in the replies.

I'm not a Christian, but I think you'll get as good an answer, if not better, from me than from one of the many zealous Christian extremists that haunt this site. The answer, to Christians, is that they both will, provided that the rapist and murderer truly repents.

just because he has not heard of jesus does not make a diffrance have ou not hearjesus will exept every one that has lived a good life

It's not up to us to decide that...thankfully.

Both men will be welcome into heaven, cause Jesus forgives everyone of their sins no matter who or what they did in life.

The one who has lived by The Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. P.S. I'm not a Christian...but I believe in the Golden Rule with all my heart.

Both die, never wake up, The Bible is nothing but a fable, the end. At least that's how I feel after reading this disturbing but excellent question.

Both. The first repented. The second was not punished for his ignorance of the Lord.

According to the Bible, it's the first one. You just need to beleive and want forgivness, you can do all the crap you want 'till then. Being a good person isn't enough for God - and in the end, he doesn't even care. He just wants you to feed his ego and beleive - you get into Heaven that way.

According to most everything I've heard from the supposed envoys of the authorities said to presiding over "Heaven", the first man would end up there, the second would not. It's always seemed to me that "Heaven" and "Hell" are divided less by general virtue than they are by the supposed "Virtue" of absolute faith. Which is exactly why I personally have no interest whatsoever in going to "Heaven", even if it does exist, because it effectively proves nothing anyway.

The easy and short answer to this is God decides who does and does not go to heaven. He is the ultimate judge on things like this. Thank God Im not, because its a tough call. As a human, I would not want to extend forgiveness to the one that killed the little girls. But there are several passages in the Bible that say just that. I cant think of the exact one right off hand. Let me think... Jesus was telling a parable of a a person that had a field. (Grapes I think, but Im not sure) He needed people to go work in the field and harvest the grapes. he hired one worker that went in immediately for a certain wage. The work was nearing done, but the owner decided that he needed to hire another worker. This worker that he hired received the exact same wages as the worker that was hired earlier. The moral being that no matter at what point you except God, you will receive the same reward. (Side note) Some would point to this as an excuse that they can live anyway they want and at the end of their life, ask for forgiveness and make it into heaven. My answer to this is; Do you really want to take that chance? What if you die suddenly before you get the chance to ask for forgiveness. There are no second chances on this one. The 2nd man is a bit of a different story though. The Bible says that everything in creation screams out of the existance of God, so everyone is without excuse. So this would seem to indicate that he would not see heaven. Being a "Good Person" is not enough to get one into heaven. But again, its Gods call as to who makes it and who does not. I think we will all be quite surprised to see who is there and who is not.

Magenta, Ime very curious to see you ask such a question. Our previous bantering led me to belive that you did not believe in anything that had to do with God or heaven.

neither of them go to heaven.... heaven is for a very select few to be kings and priests with jesus. Matthew 5:28-29 28. "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29. and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Don’t let the picture in your mind cloud your judgment. You have purposely asked a question that is very emotional to most of us, specifically parents. Since death of Christ, price has been paid for all those that believe even on His name, will be saved, and that is on the bases and on the merits of atonement, not on their own righteousness. The Bible speaks of our own righteousness as “filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6 - KJV). I know that this is hard to grasp, but there is no sin that the blood of Christ can’t atone for, with exception of the sin of unbelief. In your example – the man in Africa has demonstrated that he is practicing the laws of God inscribed in all of our hearts and minds. Therefore he is a “doer” of the “law” and as such will be justified. (Romans 2:13 – KJV) Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Romans 2:12-14 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter) The rapist, if asked God for forgiveness and has truly repented, is also made righteous through atonement of Christ on his behalf. Remember, Jesus died for the ‘sic’ not those that don’t need the doctor… Judging by the scripture, both man would stand before God and had a claim to kingdom of God, one through works, one through faith. Although the man that had works, must had also the Faith in performing the works, in order to perform them. It’s a good thing that Bible also states that “God can not be mocked” which at least gives us assurance that no one will end’s up in Heaven or Hell accidentally…

It is, of course, up to God but probably both. + Forgiveness + If a man is truly sorry for his sin and asks forgiveness from God he will be forgiven. God truly wants all to be saved. + Baptism of Desire + The Catholic Church believes that those who die never hearing of Christ but have sought the truth and does the will of God as they understand it can be saved. See Romans 2:13-16. This is called the Baptism of desire. For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 1257-1261: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm#art1 + With love in Christ.

Both if they genuinely satisfy this simple requirement “whosoever submits his will to God while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.” found in HQ 2:112. The God mentioned here is the universal God, the one you don’t need any introduction to because He’s buried deep in everybody’s heart. For more on the universal God see http://www.godallah.com/

Can you dust for the devils fingerprints? LOL. This conversation is going too far. You can keep on arguing with someone you know you'll never convince. But what is the point?

Put the way you have put it, it makes Christianity a repugnant religion. I'm just going to speak to the first half of it, though, because I was present at a deathbed conversion of a man who was never any better than he had to be. If by going to heaven you mean floating on a pink cloud eating bonbons, or just enjoying yourself hugely for all eternity, it would be unjust for this man to go there. But in explaining to someone what the Christian religion is, he is being told that if he wants to go to heaven that means he will never be able to sin again. The beer and wine will be non-alcoholic; the language will have no cuss words; etc., etc., etc. When they understand that, lots of people would rather go to hell.

I believe both would, but to very different 'levels', and dealt with accordingly

If there is a God in heaven, this thread will stop now. I'd gladly ignore it, but I keep getting notified of a new comment, only to see it's just this thread dragging on. Please God....make it stop.

If there is a God in heaven, this thread will stop now. I'd gladly ignore it, but I keep getting notified of a new comment, only to see it's just this thread dragging on. Please God....make it stop.