Pope in Africa reaffirms "no condoms" against AIDS. Which chapter and verse is this position based on? See LINK:

Thanks, urk.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 17th, 2009

Sure thing man.

• Report

by urk on March 17th, 2009

Thanks. Onan's sin was of greed. He didn't want to share his inheritance with his dead brother's family. It had absolutely nothing to do with wearing rubbers, or coitus interuptus, as I am sure you know.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 17th, 2009

Exactly. That argument is always taken out of context. God what not mad at him for "spilling," but for disobeying Him.

• Report

by urk on March 17th, 2009

Er... "God was not mad..." grr I give me a -5 for that one.

• Report

by urk on March 17th, 2009

Yep, I know.
One of the many reasons I'm no longer a Christian.

• Report

by Lady Alathia of Vulcan on March 17th, 2009

Ha! Well said.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 17th, 2009

AIDS epidemic is raging. But don't accept the one proven preventive meassure. What kind of logic is that? What do scriptures have to do with AIDS prevention and control?

• Report

by Suby the Coat on March 17th, 2009

Interesting. Now I also have to go looking for the place where the Bible assigns to any man the right to override the laws of God.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 17th, 2009

Non of what I said is in the Bible, the Bible is not a dictionary were you find what you need in alphabetical order, it is a matter of understanding, interpretation & theology. It's the prerogative of the Roman Catholic Church to make exceptions so authorized by the highest ranked Bishop or Archbishop in the Dioceses where the exception is requested. The same applies for marriage annulments.
.
The Bible is more or less like the Constitution/Bill of Rights, written in general and broad terms but may be applied according to the legislators understanding if not then amendments will be required.
.
The Bible is no different, remember when it was written & in those times many of todays issues did not exist such as AIDS, condones, contraceptives, abortion, divorce & others, thus are applied according to the best judgment of the local church authorities & who vote to apply the dispense or not.
.
Continues....

• Report

by Carpediem COAT ab imo pectore on March 18th, 2009

If an agreement is not reached then the requested dispense will be send to the Vatican for consideration.
.
The Bible does not assign "any man" the right to override the laws of God, an Archbishop, Bishop, Cardinal and others are not any man and they are not painted on a wall as decoration, they have severe responsibilities.
.
Allow me to ask: If a woman marries a man by the Roman Catholic rite but is cheated regarding his sexuality, a month later she finds out who he truly is what is she supposed to do?
Remain married to this person? Obtain a divorce or request an annulment?
.
Reasons: She was cheated into a wrongful & sinful marriage, she ignored the truth regarding her then husband to be, therefore she is free to ask for an annulment which must follow the established procedure according to the Roman Catholic Church.
.
Mind you these issues are not easy. Many documents, medical certificates and many others including witnesses must be presented to begin the procedure.

• Report

by Carpediem COAT ab imo pectore on March 18th, 2009

I believe you are right about the Pope's rationale, but I further agree that you're right, there is nothing in the Bible that justifies such a position.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 17th, 2009

I'm assuming that it goes back to the idea that pleasure simply for the sake of pleasure is indulgent and wrong.

I'm a Christian myself (Methodist), but there are enough things in the Bible that you can pretty much cherry pick a verse here and a verse there to justify what you want. So I kind of have a skeptical eye toward that, while remembering that one corollary of that is that no one should believe he's right all the time. :-)

• Report

by ChrisDC on March 17th, 2009

Well, you're certainly right about not believing you are right all the time. :)

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 18th, 2009

So please explain to me how Reason drove the pope to work against the use of condoms in preventing the spread of AIDS, an incurable and deadly epidemic. Type slowly, because this is going to be difficult for me to understand.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 17th, 2009

Simply handing out condoms does not solve the AIDS problem in Africa or anywhere else. Furthermore, even of there were no such thing as AIDS Africa would still have a major problem with sexual ethics and basic human morality. Africa has a long tradition of polygamy, marital infidelity and using sodomy as a means of birth control. What these people need are not tools to keep behaving as they always have but to be taught the basics of human sexuality and sexual ethics. Teaching sexual ethics in Africa is in their best interest and the only way they will achieve virtue and happiness.

• Report

by bear on March 18th, 2009

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions or religious dogma. You aren't entitled to your own facts, however. There is ample statistical proof that providing people condoms and teaching how they are used and why works far better than absitinece programs in reducing the spread of AIDS.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 18th, 2009

BTW, I should add that I fully agree with your idea that education is the final key. The more we can do to teach committed relationships the better.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 18th, 2009

Can you cite a specific study please? My point was that the problem that Africans have runs much deeper than AIDS. In other words, AIDS is a symptom of a more profound social disorder and that even should AIDS be entirely cured in Africa, they would still have a society in crisis. Namely, the African family structure is broken and it is this structure that provides the foundation for societal order on a universal scale.

• Report

by bear on March 18th, 2009

http://www.avert.org/aidssoutheastasia.htm
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jul/08071503.html

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 18th, 2009

"Speaking on his first visit to Africa, on route to the Cameroon, Pope Benedict XVI has described HIV/AIDS as “a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms”, stating that condoms can even “increase the problem”. He did not elaborate on how condoms increase the risk of HIV though. Instead he is bringing a message of abstinence and fidelity as "the only sure way of preventing the spread of HIV and AIDS", to the 230 million Catholics in Africa....Condoms when used consistently and correctly are over 90 % effective in preventing HIV transmission."

• Report

by bear on March 19th, 2009

If condoms are 90% effective that means that they are 10% ineffective. So, by handing out condoms to the masses you are sure to increase the number of Africans who engage in promiscous sex because they feel they are "protected." Unfortunately, for 10% of these poor people (in fact it will be more than 10% because not everyone will use the condoms "correctly") the promises and teachings of the WHO will prove a death sentence.In this way, it's easy to see the Pope's point that widespread condom use will increase the incidence of AIDS. The bottom line is that the problem is not a lack of condoms but sexual promiscuity, sodomy and marital infidelity.

• Report

by bear on March 19th, 2009

BTW, this is not a systematic study that compares and isolates the effectiveness of condom use vs. abstinence and sexual ethics teaching. They make an unwarranted correlation regarding the statistics.

• Report

by bear on March 19th, 2009

Why must we go 100% to one pole or the other? Handing out condoms willy-nilly with no education on family values or the risk of casual sex, even with condoms is insane. Isn't it possible to both educate people and provide information on condom use for those who choose to take a risk? The evidence is clear. If you insist on the either / or thinking so in vogue with Right Wing Authoritarian Followers, then condoms work better than abstinence only. But let's try both together. That's what has been proven to work best.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 19th, 2009

I don't think it can work like that as you are sending mixed messages. "Safe Sex" is a lie founded on falses pretenses of security and perpetuated by those who have less interest in saving the lives of Africans than they do in imposing their own secularist agenda. Besides, as I said, it's not only about AIDS but in changing sexually immoral behavior. The only way to truly stop the spread of the virus is to promote abstinence, marital fidelity and chastity (sexual virtue).

• Report

by bear on March 20th, 2009

It has worked. Again, the studies show that education programs that include how to use condoms and their risks are far superior to education programs that stress abstinence only.

• Report

by Jim in a Nautilus COAT on March 20th, 2009

Bear, I love your opening remarks [answer], Man.
And I dig your orientation: It's not about AIDS, but moral behaviour and chastity, and belief in the One who Created all things - both in Heaven and in earth - and who is our Father in Heaven.

• Report

by denidowi on March 23rd, 2009