by Littlemisswallflower on March 1st, 2007

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Do you believe in fate (as in everything is planned out already, and you can't change things), or do you believe that nothing is final and that you create you life as you go through it?

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Answers. 25 helpful answers below.

by Anonymous on March 1st, 2007
No. I believe we create our own present and future, and what we say, do and think affects not only us but everyone else in the Universe as well in one way or another.
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- I think you might have slightly over stated everyones importance. Certain people effect everyone on the planet, but most barely effect many people on this planet. Very few effect anything outside of our atmosphere.
  
  Nice sentiment though :-)
  
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  by CesareBorgia on January 15th, 2009
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by Ethmer on February 18th, 2008
No!

We, as entities/souls outside of physical existence, choose the circumstances under which we will be incarnated but they are based upon probabilities rather than certainties. Once reincarnated we still have the choices necessary to affect the outcome of our incarnation.

i choose

i chose to be born, – to live or die,
Even the sex, that would be i;
i chose the race, from which to appear,
Also my wealth, my health and my fear.

i chose my trials and stumbling blocks,
And the legs i would use, in all of those walks;
i chose my sadness, my joy and my love,
i chose to serve and not be above.

i chose this life – with all of its dues,
And with each dawn, again i choose;
The experiences for me that wait ahead,
To be alive, or be claimed dead.

And of the future lives i've yet,
It is my choice that i begat;
All the things, however pleasin',
That shall befall me in those seasons.
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- +++++ Welcome to AB! (http://jenptrsn.freeshell.net/healinglight.html)
  
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  by SABOTEUR on February 18th, 2008
- Are those your words or is that a quote from something?
  
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  by whisp37 on February 18th, 2008
- Regretfully, no. It's a parable related by God in "Conversations With God" (Neale Donald Walsch).
  
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  by SABOTEUR on February 18th, 2008
- O, ok, and it involves reincarnation? Im guessing the author didnt have a bible approach to his writing?
  
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  by whisp37 on February 18th, 2008
- This explains it better than I? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversations_With_God
  
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  by SABOTEUR on February 18th, 2008
- hmmm, it looks pretty interesting, it also takes ideas from many differant beleif systems. Looks like it would be a good read, although, as a christian, alot of it conflicts with the bible, but i think it would still be cool to read
  
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  by whisp37 on February 18th, 2008
- I understand why it may not be for everyone. Though not a Christian myself, reading about "alternative practices" enabled me to understand and appreciate Christianity a whole lot better. Like anything else, though, it's usually advisable to take what you find useful and discard the rest...baby in the bath water and all that. If nothing else CWG IS an interesting read.
  
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  by SABOTEUR on February 18th, 2008
- yea, i definitely agree
  
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  by whisp37 on February 18th, 2008
- Free Will! Free Will! wait a sec...different story. Never mind.
  
  We have always had free will, to choose, it is the outcomes that are predetermined. Just what is CWG?
  
  Fate. I was chatting with Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos the other day and just asked them, "Just what do you do?" They said, in three part harmony, "It is your fate to die, everything else has been predetermined to be indeterminate. Oh, and your Theory of Everything will be wrong. You shouldn't trust a handful of whacked out physicists to identify your reality."
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
- I like that, Parsec. I'll be pondering your response for days.
  
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  by SABOTEUR on February 19th, 2008
- ty SABOTEUR, i enjoy your thoughts as well
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
- predetermined to be indeterminate i like that
  
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  by whisp37 on February 19th, 2008
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by 444 on February 20th, 2008
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

I truly believe the misconception of "free will" entered into man with this next verse.

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Comments
- Perhaps free will means man can choose to accept or deny God?
  
  Just a thought.
  
  ty parsec
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 20th, 2008
- Sorry ty parsec, this answer was meant to be posted as a comment. It is still an answer.
  
  Either way one looks at it, a man's will is in captivity and not free.
  
  Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
  
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  by 444 on February 20th, 2008
- how about this...we have the freedom to choose, it is the outcome of our choices that is predetermined, not how we will choose
  
  Eph 4:8, is this not Jesus freeing souls from before His time on earth?
  
  Gen 3:5, misconception of 'free will' meaning an assumption about an ability to discern the difference between good and evil and choosing one or the other in our actions?
  
  I would have to agree that the Old Testament appears not to support the notion of 'free will', that seems reasonable
  
  the New Testament is a different ballgame
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 21st, 2008
- Good point Parsec13. But, there is an inkling of trying to one up the Creator.
  God knows how we are going to choose before we even make a choice. God Knows our hearts better than we do. He made us.
  Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
  
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  by 444 on February 21st, 2008
- He knows our hearts are evil...He doesn't have to know and He could certainly choose not to know, our choices, He most certainly would know the outcomes...as with our children, we give them guidance and advise them of their path and then they go on their way, we watch as they choose a dangerous path and are pained to know they are going to struggle because of a bad choice
  
  Mat 6:8 Isn't this context concerning our daily needs?
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 21st, 2008
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by DiSTurBiA on February 19th, 2008
nope, everything is a reaction to a action, or things happen jus because they do
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- you seem certain...i cannot dispute your answer...well...I won't
  
  i think 'all things in good measure' can apply to this
  
  thank you for your response, parsec <0>
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
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by Chris on February 18th, 2008
I think you already know the answer to that.
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- How did you know?!!
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
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by 444 on February 18th, 2008
Predetermined.
Jesus Christ knew his outcome was predetermined by God.
Comments
- But at the same time, we have the choice to choose Christ, so their is also an element of free will in our day-to-day lives, but ultimately, God knows when our last breath will be, e.t.c
  
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  by whisp37 on February 18th, 2008
- Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
  
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  by 444 on February 18th, 2008
- true, but if thats the case, then would Jesus be standing at the door knocking? emprically, God has choosen us, but as we live and breath, we still make the choice to recieve him or not
  
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  by whisp37 on February 18th, 2008
- Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
  
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  by 444 on February 18th, 2008
- I think you are missing my point. We have to have free will to choose Christ, or else we would just be robots, and thats not what God wanted, so he gives us the ability to reason and make choices, to choose him or not, even though he know the choices we will make, because he is not bound by time, but this doesnt mean that we dont have free will. On a macro level though, everything is pre-determined, even the end of the world and after.
  
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  by whisp37 on February 19th, 2008
- I wonder how these notions and/or beliefs affect a person's thinking. How would the alternative belief affect their worldview?
  Not a thing that could be tested. Just a curiosity.
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
- Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
  
  Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
  
  Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
  
  I truly believe the misconception of "free will" entered into man with this next verse.
  
  Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
  
  Thank you whisp37, I really do enjoy discussing this.
  
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  by 444 on February 20th, 2008
- Luke 11:28
  He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
  2 Thessalonians 1:8
  He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
  
  We have a choice to obey or not, and we also have the choice to sin or not:
  
  Psalm 19:13
  Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then will I be blameless, innocent of great transgression.
  
  However, the choices we make have already been part of Gods greater purpose:
  
  Proverbs 19:21
  Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
  
  Proverbs 20:24
  A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
  
  This has been an interesting conversation and I really enjoy discussing this issue with you :)
  
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  by whisp37 on February 22nd, 2008
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by laurenesque on February 18th, 2008
Both.

I believe that there are certain events or choices that we are fated to make, but how we decide is free will and influences the next fated choice.
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- ty laurenesque
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
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by Peetee on February 12th, 2008
Yes, at least for some of the time. It's a bit like a game of chess where you get to the point where you realise that no matter what you do, you're gonna lose in say, four moves or less.

Sometimes, despite putting in extra effort to remember something, I still forget at the vital moment. I can only conclude that for that particular action, I was destined to do a certain action whether I liked it or not.

I'm sure that if you knew all my loves / hates, you'd find me very predictable. Sure I've got free will, but if it's a hot day and I've got money in my pocket and there is an ice cream shop open nearby, it's not hard to predict what will happen, is it?

Sure, decision making can be a bit more complex than that, but to someone who knows all the variables it's clockwork.
Comments
- Its like the bets are in on some stuff and the odds can't be changed. I wonder if outcomes aren't like this: some things are more likely than other things, the more likely something is the more it is affected by determinism, the less likely the more it is affected by probabliities. There is a fine edge to that kind of thinking, maybe, is it reasonable?
  
  Decision making, don't the best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry? lol
  
  I think some things are just here for fun. Based on current information, I should wake up tomorrow.
  
  Thanks for the input. :)parsec13
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 12th, 2008
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by Tinkerbell on February 12th, 2008
No for a number of reasons.

Exorcising Laplace's Demon can be achieved either via something like Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem (which I am no WAY explaining here lol!) or looking at the probabilitstic nature of reality as revealed via modern physics.

Determinism got a huge boost in the 17th century with the advent of Newton (and earlier Descartes) but modern advancements have shown (to the best of our knowledge) that relaity is not deterministic and is at a fundamental nature probabalistic, somewhat random and non-determinsitic. It just seems to be how the universe works. ALthough some physicists disagree and claim that is just our understanding is flawed. Possible but I think it is just a convenient way to avoid something that is counter intuitive and "something that goes against our intuition or common sense" is not a good enough reason for rejecting it.

I also find the idea deeply philosophically troubling. This is another discussion but if things are dewtermined in any way shape or form then free will is really an illusion. That disturbs me. Not a good enough reason to reject it though but it doesn't sit well with me.
Comments
- Outcomes are not predictable?...it is not possible that a measure of determinism and probability exist in all outcomes...what about the probability of determinism?...are we not fated by our choices?...could the outcome of a choice be predetermined...we still have free will but we cannot alter an outcome once a choice is made...the mechanics of reality may be probabilistic at a quantum level but more deterministic as we scale things up...just yakking
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 15th, 2008
- Outcomes are predictable just not deterministic.
  
  If something is determinsitic you can get a definite "This WILL happen given x y and z". In probabilistic situations you can never say that you can only say "This will LIKELY happen given x y and z".
  
  Once an event happens it would appear it has happened although this is far from resolved. Time travel at sub atomic levels is being researched as we speak.
  
  It is somewhat true that statistically as you "up scale" the probabilities come close to classical physics. However Schroedinger's Cat is a famous thought-experiment to demonstrate these phenomena at a macroscopic level.
  
  Some food for thought:
  
  One way to view it is that to model the entire universe (true determinism) you would need a computer the size of the universe. Or you could see it as the computer itself must be within the universe (where else can it go?) and as such must also model itself, which leads to russian dolls syndrome. too little space! :)
  
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  by Tinkerbell on February 15th, 2008
- Some of this may get away from the original question.
  Only in quantum mechanics do probabilistic outcomes apply. We still have no consensus theory connecting quantum mechanics with macrophysics. Everything we observe above the atomic level has an antecedent and is deterministic. There are no superpositions above the atomic level. I'm not trying to be difficult, just looking for some clarification. Any additional insight gained is appreciated. Determinism needs an adjustment when it comes to human affairs. I don't see any effect on free will if outcomes are fated, we still make a choice, it is only the outcome that is predetermined.
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 18th, 2008
- But if the universe is deterministic then as a part of the universe so are you. If X implies Y, condition X will lead to condition Y each and every time. So we would only have the illusion of free will as we are just as determined as anything else. We might "think" we are making a choice but in truth that choice was inevitable given the conditions. Is that free will if you really have no choice? Matter of some debate.
  
  Quantum Mechanics approximates classical physics as the distances etc reach macroscopic levels. Take a container of gas and model its behaviour. This is non deterministic even though it is macroscopic scale you have to use statistics (Boltzmann topped himself because of this). You can make an incredibly precise prediction but it is still statistical in nature. In theory all the gas could collect in one corner but it is less likely statistically. Also the famous Cat leads to superposition at a macroscopic scale though of course this is a hot topic as well :)
  
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  by Tinkerbell on February 19th, 2008
- I think some illusions are pretty cool. I don't get hung up on imagining I have to have the kind of control we're talking about. It doesn't really matter. If I am illusory, or the universe or any aspects of it or how we identify it are illusions, it doesn't really matter. It is all so highly speculative, filled with conjecture and so many varying opinions, to say this or that is conclusive is trite on anyone's part. This all has something to do with the ego. I'm certain of it. (oops, did I say certain? oops) lol What we 'observe' is light. An
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
- energy spectrum. We make measurements and analysis of things we only detect a reflection of. Gosh this is fun. I have an opinion that we are doing exactly what should be expected of us. (by whom, one another?) This is what makes this 'existence' so much fun. Thinking about it. All of what we 'know' is speculative. We are analyzing a pebble of rock, our local universe, and this is but one pebble amid an infinite array of pebbles. OUT OF ROOM!
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
- Daniel Dennett argues a similar position re free well. Basically you have it but it isn't what you think it is. I'd advise checking out his ideas on it if interested.
  
  I think we are predictable but there is always the element of chance so: predictable but non deterministic. Which I suppose I just mean there is always an element of chance involved, even at the macroscopic scale albeit small.
  
  And we haven't even TOUCHED on chaos theory yet lol
  
  Quickly: I agree, technically all we can know is "I exist" nothing more. Brain in a vat as Descartes said. We do not "know" anything. And then there is the induction issue; you have no knowledge of the future at all. Famously "how do you know the sun will rise tomorrow?" has only one answer "I don't" :)
  
  We have touched on about a dozen topics here and done them no justice lol Not enough space to go into real detail on any aspect but a fascinating topic nevertheless :)
  
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  by Tinkerbell on February 19th, 2008
- I do appreciate your thoughts and thank you for sharing. It is why I visit AB. I want to hear thoughts. When I post a question I am generally looking for a response, unless of course I'm asking about a fuel pump problem, then I'm looking for an 'answer'. I have one perspective in 6.3 billion current perspectives and one in 10-12 billion total. When I consider perspective that way, I desire to consider other opinions. lol We have circled the wagons so to speak, but it is kind of difficult to determine who or what the Indians are.
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
- But again, I don't think it matters. We can speculate, theorize or debate anything you like, or nothing. Fate. I was chatting with Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos the other day and just asked them, "Just what do you do?" They said, in three part harmony, "It is your fate to die, everything else has been predetermined to be indeterminate. “
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 19th, 2008
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by Retro_Rebel on February 20th, 2008
It's pre-determined.
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- ty parsec
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 20th, 2008
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by whisp37 on February 18th, 2008
hmmm, it looks pretty interesting, it also takes ideas from many differant beleif systems. Looks like it would be a good read, although, as a christian, alot of it conflicts with the bible, but i think it would still be cool to read
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- oops, sorry guys, this was supposed to be a comment to the first question.
  
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  by whisp37 on February 18th, 2008
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by Parsec13 on February 18th, 2008
Some of this may get away from the original question.
Only in quantum mechanics do probabilistic outcomes apply. We still have no consensus theory connecting quantum mechanics with macrophysics. Everything we observe above the atomic level has an antecedent and is deterministic. There are no superpositions above the atomic level. I'm not trying to be difficult, just looking for some clarification. Any additional insight gained is appreciated. Determinism needs an adjustment when it comes to human affairs. I don't see any effect on free will if outcomes are fated, we still make a choice, it is only the outcome that is predetermined.
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- this should have been part of a comment thread with tinkerbell
  
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  by Parsec13 on February 18th, 2008
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by Patti jo on April 11th, 2007
A mixture of both for me
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by Nelson - Jetpacking from bed on April 11th, 2007
Fate implies a predetermined path, so fate and planned are similar. Kind of like some christian faiths view of predestination.

I believe that my life is determined by a series of personal actions and events that occur around me, and how I react to them.
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by worshiptool on March 1st, 2007
everything is what you make it, not fate. but i do think the things that happen to us happen for a reason.
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by asweetguy4u2know saya R.I.P Nelson on June 20th, 2008
In some cases yes I believe things are predetermined and you don't have control over the outcome. Call it fate or whatever you like. I think God has a hand in it sometimes.

For the last 3 years I have been broken hearted over the death of my sweetheart and believed I would never open my heart and love someoneever again the way that I loved her. I believed there was no one out there who could make me forget about her and move on to love once again.

About 4 months ago I met someone here who changed all that for me. I truly believe with all my heart that our meeting was no luck of the draw. I believe God brought her into my life at a time when I needed to see that it was ok to move on and let go of my beloved Edna. That it was ok to open my heart and love another.

I honestly don't know what the future holds for us or if we will ever become more than just good friends. I do however know that I will always be thankful for her helping me to see it was time to let go of the past and look toward the future with hope that I can once again love in the way I once loved Edna.
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by Kizz miazz on June 20th, 2008
Read about chaos theory.
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by whisp37 on February 22nd, 2008
Luke 11:28
He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
2 Thessalonians 1:8
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

We have a choice to obey or not, and we also have the choice to sin or not:

Psalm 19:13
Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then will I be blameless, innocent of great transgression.

However, the choices we make have already been part of Gods greater purpose:

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Proverbs 20:24
A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

This has been an interesting conversation and I really enjoy discussing this issue with you :)
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- Im sorry guys, again, this was supposed to be a comment.
  
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  by whisp37 on February 22nd, 2008
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by Occams Electric Razor on June 20th, 2008
I believe everything is choas, random chaos and we all are just going through life looking for something, and bouncing off of one another, randomly affecting one another and nothing is set in stone or predetermined and I like it that way because I would hate to think this daily crap I deal with for just a few moments of peace and happiness is predetermined by something or someone. There;s no lessons to be learned there's no ultimate answers to be found, we live and we die and that's good enough for me.
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by Demitri on June 20th, 2008
we have a destiny, a purpose. Satan reasons like man, but god thinks of eternity. well,i prostrate myself before a world that's going to hell in a handbag, cause in all eternity, we are here and we will be remembered.destiny, a predetermined fate set by the hand of its creator, and anyone who tries to alter that destiny will be destroyed, anyone who tries to stop it from happening will cause it to happen. were not here to coexist.im here to win. so if you want to change my destiny, you better have some divine intervention buddy, cause you're gonna need it.
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by Scott on June 20th, 2008
i personally don't think that i need to believe in fate. If i live my whole life how i want to and in the end i'm told that it was my fate to have my existance take the paths it did, then who cares, i still lived it the way i wanted to.
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by romario on July 5th, 2009
Interesting enough, the future could be unchangeable, while unpredictable. Peter Lemans describes this possibility by comparing life with going to the movies. The end cannot be changed, yet there is no way of knowing what will happen.
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by CesareBorgia on January 15th, 2009
Everything is certainly not fate, but deciding you have a fate can help your progression and path. We are actually very predictable generally, we are creatures of habit.

But you can always make a change whenever you want, that is a optimistic thought for me. Its like the recent report that says you need to experience pain and sadness to appreciate and enjoy happiness and health. These scientists just do any old tests nowadays, I'd like to find out how many scientists enjoy being hit, I'd take a large sample and use vigour to ensure accurate results.
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by Firebrand on March 1st, 2007
I believe that you can be Master of your own Destiny, to a certain extent.
That is until you are sailing along quite happily and then hit that rock called fate. You just have to try to work your way around it.Not always the way you want to go.
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by Rajesh on June 20th, 2008
Yes. Fate is obviously a major factor in one's life. However, if one stops trying and leaves everything to fate then his luck would be screwed up as him.
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Question

Do you believe in fate (as in everything is planned out already, and you can't change things), or do you believe that nothing is final and that you create you life as you go through it?

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