by morrisonhimself on May 28th, 2009

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If taxation is not theft, what is it? If theft is defined as taking from another by use of force, how can taxation not be theft?

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by Ice man on May 28th, 2009
I believe "Extortion" would be the correct word. :)
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- Thank you! Excellent answer!
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  by morrisonhimself on May 28th, 2009
- P.S. Beautiful bike! (Photo number 3)
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  by morrisonhimself on May 28th, 2009
- You're welcome , and the bike says thanks. :)
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  by Ice man on May 28th, 2009
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by MrJosh on August 1st, 2009
Theft is not taking by force, but taking unlawfully. The government makes the laws, so it can simply declare it lawful and it is not theft.
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- 100% agreed, and if the taxation is a theft then using of government properties (roads, etc..) paying without is also a theft.
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  by Henderson on August 2nd, 2009
- Good point.
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  by MrJosh on August 2nd, 2009
- So back in the days when blacks were -- BY LAW -- forced to sit in the back of the bus, that was OK? I mean, government said it was so it must have been.
  And when the Nazi government, which, after all, WAS the government, said Jews had to be exterminated, that was OK too?
  And when the Red Chinese government said anyone with education was de facto an enemy of the state, and must be killed or at least re-educated, that was OK?
  Do you see the error in reasoning?
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  by morrisonhimself on August 2nd, 2009
- No, no error in my reasoning. Nowhere did I make a judgement call. Nowhere did I say anything was good or bad. I said lawful. There is a difference.
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  by MrJosh on August 2nd, 2009
- Yes, you are right: There is a difference.
  But calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg, to paraphrase, I think, Lincoln.
  Theft is theft no matter how "lawful."
  Merriam Webster's definition of "theft" is taking of personal property in order to deprive the rightful owner of it.
  And that, by gosh, is just what taxation is.
  There was rampant theft of personal property by excessive property taxation in the conquered South starting in 1865; and there have been many other examples over the years of eminent domain used to give someone's home to a corporation, such as certain department store chains.
  Sure, it was perfectly "lawful," but it was by gosh theft.
  "Lawful" is not at all a synonym for "right" or "just."
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  by morrisonhimself on August 3rd, 2009
- Assuming you quoted that dictionary verbatim, it would seem that it is only theft if deprivation is the purpose of your taking. There does seem to be some ambiguity regarding the definition of the word "theft." Allow me to reanswer the question along the lines of what Henderson said.
  -
  In theory, the government (speaking of the US here) is "We the people." "We the people" have gotten together and decided that we should all chip in to pay for things like roads, police, fire departments, etc. I am happy to pay my share for those things. I'm not happy about everything my tax dollars go toward, and I let my elected representatives know. Its not a perfect system, but I wouldn't call it theft.
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  by MrJosh on August 3rd, 2009
- You are trying to be reasonable, and I thank you.
  However, I still call it theft.
  You say you are "happy to pay my share." And I'm happy for you to pay what you think is your share.
  However, you are always allowed to donate anything of your own to whatever cause, even government, but that doesn't mean you have any right to force others to hand over money, or anything else, such as their time or their energy or their lives, for whatever cause you want to support.
  You are also right about the Merriam Webster definition. A more intelligent definition would be "depriving the rightful owner," regardless of the reason for the depriving.
  Many countries, including the young United States, taxed people for the established church.
  It was the law, but it sure wasn't right.
  Many states taxed everybody for government schools, but doled out a pittance, if anything, for black schools, and that was wrong at several levels -- but it was the law.
  Where it was spent doesn't matter: How it was taken does.
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  by morrisonhimself on August 3rd, 2009
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by Im Alec on May 28th, 2009
But theft is *not* defined as taking from another by use of force. It is not theft to reclaim your own property from a thief. It is not theft to claim a clearly owed debt by the use of bailiffs. Equally, picking pockets and shoplifting do not use force but are still theft. Theft is taking that to which you are not entitled, with or without force.

Now, it is a matter of debate whether the government is entitled to levy taxes, and how much they are entitled to do so. But if they are so entitled, then it is not theft to collect them. There is an argument that any organisation, from a health club to a nation, is entitled to levy membership fees. In the case of the Government, these fees are called taxes. If you don't want to be a member, leave the club. This argument may or may not be realistic, but you must answer it before you call taxation theft.
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- Thank you! This is a very good answer.
  I have, because of your reasoning, gone back to my question and changed the wording to "initiatory force."
  I will add this: I never "joined" whatever government it is that points a gun at me and says "hand over your taxes."
  So that analogy does not hold up.
  I can point to, as just one example, the Soviet Union that considered all peoples and persons within reach to be property, and when Jews asked to be able to leave, to go to Israel, for example, they were told they couldn't leave until they "paid back" the state for their education.
  Nobody ever asked "do you want this?" If something is forced on you, how can you reasonably be told you must pay for it?
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  by morrisonhimself on May 28th, 2009
- Well, rats. It seems I can't change my question. Sorry.
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  by morrisonhimself on May 28th, 2009
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If taxation is not theft, what is it? If theft is defined as taking from another by use of force, how can taxation not be theft?

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