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You're reading Is it true that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. If so, why and where did they obtain that idea?
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Andy-B: You are correct. They get the idea from scripture when "other sheep" are mentioned and they are a special class. As it turns out the 144,000 are ALL Jews from the 12 different tribes of Isreal and the rest of us stay on earth. I'm still trying to figure out how they decide which tribes these special people (gentiles all of them)are from...LOL I boggles the mind!
by Abbyguy on February 14th, 2008
What scripture do you use that tells you heaven has an infinite amount of people?
by keithcain on June 23rd, 2009
Actually, compare the tribes listed at Revelation 7, to the tribes listed in Numbers 1. Then read Romans 2 (particularly vs. 28, 29) as well as chapters 9-11.
by scodey on August 20th, 2009
I didn't see where there was an infinite amount of people going to heaven there. Could you explain those chapters in a little more detail?
by keithcain on August 21st, 2009
Actually, I was responding to the 144k being Jews statement. Sorry about the mixup.
by scodey on August 21st, 2009
Keithcain: This man Lonnie Woodruff said it better than I could.
This describes only the city only, which God has set up for the bride of Christ, all who are saved by by faith in Him.
The measurement of the city described in Revelation chapters 21 and 22 is 12,000 furlongs. A furlong is 1/8 th of a mile. This makes the city about 1500 miles square, or 1500 miles in all directions. That is quite a large city. The total land area of the United States, including Alaska and Hawaii, is 3,717,796 sq miles. The literal land area of the city described in Revelation would be 2,250,000 sq miles. That would make the city a somewhat larger than 1/2 the size of the United States. In addition to that the wall of the city described in Revelation is 1500 miles high. That is an extremely high wall considering that most commercial airliners fly at an altitude of about 7 to 8 miles.
by Abbyguy on August 21st, 2009
Scientists who work with the Hubble telescope released pictures of our universe which contained galaxies as far away from the earth as 12 billion light years. That measurement is too great for most of us to even imagine. God made this universe and the earth is only one tiny speck in the entire picture, since God made this universe for man, I highly suspect that the heaven he creates for us to live in for all eternity will be a far greater place.
by Abbyguy on August 21st, 2009
While that might all be true,that still does not give the idea of an infinite number of people that will be going to heaven.
by keithcain on August 24th, 2009
It says in Revelation 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."
That sounds infinite to me.
by Abbyguy on August 24th, 2009
Yes but this verse is in reference to those who made it through the great tribulation here on earth. Notice verse 9 after listing the tribes it says AFTER THIS....implying this great multitude seperate those of the twelve tribes.
by keithcain on August 24th, 2009
Yes, the twelve tribes are the Jews who are the 144,000, the great mutitude are the people whoa accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, a multitude that no man can number. It is at the end of days yes when Christ will finish off Satan his demons and all who opposed Him or rejected Him. The Jews not of the 144,000 are the ones that will inhabit the earth after this, not gentiles.
by Abbyguy on August 24th, 2009
So only Jews receive everlasting life?
by keithcain on August 25th, 2009
And by your comment, are the great multitude that accepted Jesus going to heaven too? You mention 3 groups of people when that scripture only mentions two groups.
by keithcain on August 26th, 2009
We have to answer the questions; who are Gods chosen people and what was the plan for their existence? The Jewish people always have been and always will be Gods chosen people and they were meant live on earth as per the original plan. The 144000 wil be taken out from among them from the 12 tribes, the rest (all who accepted Christ's gift of salvetion) will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord Jesus.
There are 2 groups of people that I mentioned but it is common knowledge that the Jewish nation is Gods chosen one, and did not think it it needed clarification.
by Abbyguy on August 26th, 2009
I think you are confusing yourself with your answer. Partly because it is not backed by scripture. You said - "The Jews not of the 144,000 are the ones that will inhabit the earth..." Then you said - "The 144000 wil be taken out from among them from the 12 tribes, the rest (all who accepted Christ's gift of salvetion) will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord Jesus." And also why would ones who don't accept Jesus as their saviour be rewarded with life on earth?
by keithcain on August 27th, 2009
There is NO confusion on my part, you either don't get it or your are just being a twit. All topics I speak of are backed by scripture, maybe not in the NWT but all the other valid bibles it are.
Once again: firstly, the bible refers to the Jews as Gods chosen ones, (this should be a given) most of whom will spend eternity on earth.
Secondly, the 144,000 are a special second group because only that number will be taken from among the 12 Jewish tribes of Israel and they will go to heaven and will have special stasus. Thirdly, all who accept Christs gift of salvation will also go to heaven to be with the Lord, they will not have the same status as the 144,000 Jews.
Forthly, I didn't think I needed to mention this group because it was implied by it's absence. This group are those who not Jews and who did NOT accept Salvation from Jesus, they will spend eternity in hell.
All I have said is scriptural take of the scales from your eyes.
by Abbyguy on August 27th, 2009
Who will be living on earth?
by keithcain on August 27th, 2009
For the third time 'Once again: firstly, the bible refers to THE JEWS as Gods chosen ones, (this should be a given) most of whom WIL SPEND ETERNITY ON EARTH."'
by Abbyguy on August 27th, 2009
So then, have these ones that will spend eternity on earth accepted Jesus as their saviour?
by keithcain on August 27th, 2009
NO! They are Jews, Gods first people, HIs chosen ones, His beloved. I see what you are trying to do, you are trying to trap me with my own words but the bible supports EVERYTHING I say so forget the mind games and get to your point, If you choose not to get to the point in your next response I will unsubsribe becasue I have better things to do than play silly games with a man that finds it amusing. Put up or shut up, I'm tired of you.
by Abbyguy on August 27th, 2009
Actually, if I may, where does the Bible say that the Jews are still God's selected people? Honest question.
by scodey on August 27th, 2009
Deuteronomy 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
From the beginning when God established a covenant with Abraham the Jews were used as Gods special people. They were the ones He chose, He even forth the Messiah through Jewish lineage. Jesus fullfilled the law perfectly and completely but that did not break His cvenant with His people the Jewish nation, they have and alway will be His special people, aside from and different from those who accepted Christ as Savior. It had to be done this way so that gentiles would have a chance at salvation, there was no other way.
Praise God for His wisdom and holliness.
BTW The Jw's have claimed these scriptures for themselves, which can not be.
by Abbyguy on August 27th, 2009
Intresting line of reasoning. Thanks for the well thought out comment. As you have said:
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"From the beginning God established a covenant with Abraham. The Jews were used as Gods special people."
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This is 99% correct. However, to put a finer point on it, the scripture states more precisely:
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"Jehovah the God of the heavens, who took me [Abraham] from my father’s house and from the land of my relatives and who spoke to me and who swore to me, saying, ‘To your seed I am going to give this land.'" (Gen 24:7)
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Note that the promise was to Abraham's 'seed'. Later, this promise was restated to Isaac and Jacob:
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"...I shall continue with you [Jacob] and bless you, because to you and to your seed I shall give all these lands, and I will carry out the sworn statement that I swore to Abraham your father, ‘And I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and I will give to your seed all these lands; and by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves,’ due to the fact that Abraham listened to my voice and continued to keep his obligations to me, my commands, my statutes, and my laws.” (Gen 26:3-5)
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True, God did establish a _Law_ covenant with the Jews (Ex 24:3-8), who were in fact decendents of Abraham. However, we have to be careful not to view these two covenants as the same because remember, the Law covenant was dispelled when Christ shed his blood. (Heb 8:13; Col 2:14; Jer 31:31-34). The key here point is that they were not a part of Abrahams foretold "Seed", why?
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"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: 'And to your seed,' who is Christ." (Gal 3:16)
The promised Seed did in fact come from Abraham (Gen 1; Luke 3), but it was not neccesarily the Jews. Jesus himself said that "their house was abandoned to them" (Mat 23:37, 38) when he established a "new covenant" (Luke 22:19,20) with his first followers. This is in line with Pauls word's:
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"However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who spring from Israel are really 'Israel.' Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac." (Rom 9:6-18)
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"YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise." (Gal 3:26-29)
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So while true, God did establish a covenant with the Jews, this covenant was not the same as the one he made with Abraham. Rather, "if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise."
by scodey on August 27th, 2009
The Jews are as well.
by Abbyguy on August 27th, 2009
How so?
by scodey on August 27th, 2009
Abbyguy, you are one of the few that I have talked to that at least recognizes the 144,000 as a literal number.
Aren't the 144,000 said to be on the throne where as the great crowd is before the throne? Rev7:9-10; Rev 3:21;Luke 22:30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%207:9-10;Rev%203:21;Luke%2022:30&version=NIV;NKJV;KJV;ESV;NASB
by Texasescimo on September 13th, 2009
I cut the following out of an article from Insight on the Scriptures:
(“Judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel.” Jesus told the apostles that in “the re-creation” they would “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28; see CREATION [Re-Creation].) And he expressed a similar thought when he made a covenant with his faithful apostles for a Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21) Those “called to be holy ones” are said to judge, not themselves, but “the world.” (1Co 1:1, 2; 6:2) Those reigning with Christ form a kingdom of priests. (1Pe 2:9; Re 5:10) Consequently, “the twelve tribes of Israel” mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent “the world” of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge.—Re 20:4.)
by Texasescimo on September 13th, 2009
(Romans 11:25) For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in,
(Revelation 7:4) And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
(Revelation 14:1) And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.
(Revelation 14:3) And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.
(Revelation 5:9-10) And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(Revelation 20:6) Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
(1 Corinthians 6:2) Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters?
(Luke 12:32) “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.
(2 Peter 3:13) But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
(Revelation 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.
(Proverbs 2:21-22) For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.
(Psalm 37:11) But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it
by Texasescimo on July 1st, 2010