ANSWERS: 1
  • There is an old saying - Pay a compliment to a guy and you'll get a million miles out of him. Guys - and boy, do I know this - want to feel respected and wanted. So the first thing - just tell him not just that you love him, but that you appreciate something he has done for you. This, by the way, is not just about sex. If he does something - maybe fixes something around the house - make a point to tell him what a great job he did and how much it helped. Where sex is concerned, as cliche as it sounds, tell him that no matter how much you enjoy the other guy, that no one has ever made you feel better during sex than he has. Be sincere - as he will smell an empty compliment, but guys want to be appreciated. We are lousy talkers - actually my gf says I am a good talker, but I guess there are exceptions - but we want to feel loved and we want to think that we are the best thing since sliced bread in the bedroom. You can also surprise him. A romantic dinner where you are obviously trying to seduce him will go over really well. It will make him feel wanted and sexually desirable. Best of all, if you are willing to do it, is tell him some night, "I don't want to see "x" tonight, I want to be with you and feel you next to me." (My gf actually said this to me one time when we were doing a little bit of swapping back in the day. She said that and I felt ten feet tall. It was like, "Wow!! She picked me! She wants me!! She could have the other guy and she chose me!!!" Hard to beat that feeling and it plays to every insecurity I had - and that every guy has deep down. The truth is, we don't say it much. We love the sex and the variety, but at the end of the day we want to be loved by that one woman who wants us above all others, Funny thing, there was an article in the WSJ - of all places - about the differences between men and women when it comes to sex, and it said, "'Experts believe sex is a more emotional experience for men than for women. Men tend to express feelings with actions, not words. Unlike a lot of women, they probably don
    • dorat
      Sorry, this got cut off. I didn't realize that the "Comments" were not the only thing with a word limit. Bottom line, though, is that more than anything your husband needs to know that for all the sex play, he pleases you better than anyone else and that you respect and appreciate him. Keep sending him that message and you will go far to make him happy and contented. Believe it or not, for all the sex, men want to know that there is one special woman in his life who values him above all. There is no need to feel guilty - just realize that in a weird way he is emotionally vulnerable and just needs to be held and told that he matters. To quote from that WSJ article again - "When a man gets depressed because he's not being touched, it's just like the little boy who stands in his crib and cries to be picked up,,,." Simple stuff like that can make all the difference. Hope that helps and again I am really sorry that my original remarks got cut off. They were a little more on point than what I wrote here, but said essentially the same thing.
    • officegirl
      I understand - sometimes being cut off we don't express ourselves as well trying to reconstruct it. The way I love my husband I could spend all my time on him. Which of course is unrealistic and he would not even want me to do. He gets impatient anyway when I dote on him too much - a lot of the time he just wants to be let alone to pursue his work. And, besides work and activities and taking care of his grandson, partly I fill my time being with men. Which I do enjoy and value. I am a neat but pretty casual as far as my dress is concerned but used to be when we would go out I would wear things elegant and sort of sexy and put on eye makeup and everything so I would get some looks from men but then I would just pay all my attention to my husband and he used to like that and often we would make love on getting home. No longer seems to be that effective although we always have a great time out together. He knows I am always available to him as far as sex is concerned. But for me where does always being available end and sex being just a responsibility for him begin. I know one of the reasons he does like being with certain women is they don't require as much effort sexually as I do. Lately I have been trying to "start without him" so if we are going to have sex I bring myself off a few times before he comes in to the bedroom or living room which does cut down the time it takes me to get going with him and so instead of having to go fifty minutes with me it can be just half an hour and I start coming with him sooner and get off as many times. Doesn't always work that way but mostly has so I hope it will make him want to be with me more.
    • dorat
      NOTE: I wrote what follows and then read your response to my next answer and - spooky - you echoed much of what I wrote here. So I decided to leave what I wrote here for whatever it might be worth. Frankly, though, I think you nailed your own situation quite well. I offer this then more as support for you than because I think what I wrote will be much help. MY INITIAL REPLY: Well, just one point. There is a difference between "doting" and paying him the kind of attention that makes him feel appreciated and wanted. As I mentioned, you have to calibrate it in a way. When you are in the kind of sexual relationship you are in with your husband - or I am with my gf - you have to make an almost case-by-case judgment. Your husband, and here I base what I say on other things that you have written, sounds like a very driven man. Work is important to him. Sex is not as important to him. However, there is a common denominator in that he needs a sense of accomplishment from both. You said that one of the other reasons that he has grown to enjoy sex with other women - notwithstanding that he is, as you say, basically a one woman guy - is that they are less work. My hunch is that may be part of the problem. Pure guesswork on my part, but if he never has the sense that he can satisfy you in a way that no other man can - that he is just another guy - then he in effect, even without meaning to, gives up and looks elsewhere for that sense of accomplishment. You say that you have a good relationship in other ways, and I don't dispute that. (Certainly not without knowing you both through more than a website, that's for sure.). However, this suggests to me that he deeply loves you but has sort of thrown in the towel on YOU feeling that HE is special. One of the things my gf has been especially good at is making me feel like I matter. I remember one time how you said that it was almost embarrassing to listen to us talk about each other. (Sorry about that. Kids these days!) However, the point is that she is always telling me I am a good father. She never lets me feel when we make love that it is anything other than pure joy. (That includes even when I am just seeking sex for the most selfish reasons.) She never stops telling me that I am a good provider. Even when I am at my worst - like getting on my high horse as you may have noticed I am prone to do - she will never say a harsh word but as often as not will simply smile, kiss me, pat me on the cheek, and then roll her eyes. On any given day, maybe none of this matters, but over time I have learned that I love her more than life itself and I know that I matter to her. I cannot know, because I don't know you, where your relationship with your husband is. My sense is that your relationship works because he loves you, but the sense he needs of being special to you has been hurt because he believes, rightly or not, that you don't need him sexually. (Sex with him may mean more to you because of who he is - but you need the satisfaction that comes from many men. In his mind, that diminishes only himself.) That may be unfair or wrong - and he might even deny it if you ask him - but the only way you can undo that is through time and effort. The first time he does not think to himself, "Hey, she enjoyed me and didn't have to get herself off before me made love" will be important. You have convinced yourself that he thinks of you as too much work. My hunch - and it is only that - is that you have that backward. Rather, it is not that you are too much work, but that he cannot succeed - and so he works at where he thinks he can succeed. In this case, woman who may not satisfy him as much emotionally, but who at least allow him to think that he is in some sense special in the bedroom. So don't "dote" so much as praise and make him feel that what he does matters. You have to tailor it to him and his personality quirks - and it won't happen over night - but it might work.
    • dorat
      Just a hunch, but give it some thought.
    • officegirl
      Well I have been accused of a lot of things but this is the first time being accused of "calibrating"! Thank you for your comments but please accept my explanations - probably every good relationship becomes sort of a world in itself. Why would you think Gerry feels no sense of success with me when in fact he has "satisfied" me 98% of the time form day one? Correct that he wants and needs a "sense of accomplishment" - which I have seen to it from early on that he gets with me. When we are together I put myself entirely in his care which is how he likes it and it is him "accomplishing" my satisfaction and no tricks or play or anything like that. Because I know that is important to him. And I think you are correct in your assumption that he DOES feel that sense you mention that he can't "satisfy" me in a way that no other man can. Though in fact, as I have mentioned, he does. Which is why I always (or Ok mostly) want him and am ready to be with him. So such a feeling on his part is in his own head and is not based upon fact. (new paragraph) As I have lectured you - one of my bif things is that I think men - or women for that fact - cannot expect to be always "the best" at this or that because that is unrealistic and if taken seriously such a notion just sets us up for failure and unreality or becomes just another form of game-playing and so manipulation, domination, and control. I think this sense of always having to be "number one" is harmful both to society and to a relationship. Though I know people are competitive but once the competition becomes the main thing then it becomes not about loving me but about competing with other men and I am relegated to just being a means for their competition. Dorat when I was young I went west with two guys several years older in a van and eventually I was having sex with both of them separately and it was a great time that way - in spite of a sore tailbone from laying on the ground or in the back of the van. But eventually the idyll was broken by their fighting over who had "rights" to me. Which so completely disgusted me - because NEITHER had rights to me or perhaps they both did because I accepted and enjoyed them both. So they blew it and I stopped being with both of them. At least for a while until with the end of the journey in sight I became very sentimental and needy and on the last night we all ended up together which I will always remember. (new paragraph) Now I hasten to remind you that I do not "need" the "satisfaction" that "comes from many men". True I do enjoy it and to some extent seek it in the sense I am ready for it. Which is different than "need". I became very accustomed to sex with more than just one man in my life whether in a serious relationship or not. It came from my need to feel wanted and desirable and good about myself and my enjoyment of sex in general. I did try for many years to confine myself to my boyfriends and sometimes I succeeded fro months at a time. But then there would come - I would meet someone or just the circumstances and we would have sex which if shows promise or is good would usually lead to further meetings. And please understand from the time I was oh 17 I insisted on my right to do this because I did not believe that just because I was with someone that meant he somehow owned and controlled me. Also I recognized it was a weakness as well because it did , sometimes eventually , put men off. And many times I got the two A.M. lecture of how I had to "choose" and how I was hurting myself and why couldn't I commit etc. and "its him or me". Which was just so ludicrous to me. If they did not want me but just someone they could "own" and "control" then fine I did not need them. Just trying to explain to you how my mind ran then. And to some extent still does though I have learned lots more about life. (new paragraph) I understand I think just why Gerry likes (loves) Moira. When I say she is "easier" as f
    • officegirl
      OK again my comment got deleted. To continue - I don't really know for sure that she requires less "work" or effort from Gerry but when we all have been together have noticed that seems to have just a single orgasm. But I know other women he has liked being with they came faster and fewer times so there was more left for hanging out and sometimes fun. I know I am too serious about sex mostly. But Moira is very attractive in a neat way and is just amazing in clothes and has pretty much a flawless body and perhaps almost no wrinkles . She has the air of someone who has been hurt a lot and seeks comfort and solace and peace in life. All of which Gerry is great at in a limited fashion. I'm sure they pass words of love and talk after and cuddle and he holds her and makes her feel good and secure. And they are both - they both believe in the privacy and intimacy of their lovemaking and it is not for public consumption! In other words they don't write about it on AB or talk about it with anyone else, even their spouses, because it is private and just between them. I have no doubt you or most men would much prefer being with her. I am and try to give Gerry that feeling of privacy when we are together but he knows on some level no matter how great things are between us and how much I enjoy being with him I am to some extent in my mind comparing him with others. Her husband Ford is a successful lawyer and very smart which unfortunately he seems to take off with his clothing and in bed wants more play than love and intimacy. Seeks young women half his age or more and I guess they are his ultimate. Guess I accept that in him while his wife merely lives with it. Making love I would guess he brings out an entirely different side of her altogether. I am acceptable to him because I am willing to play and I can be "OK let's fuck". Though I could never love him and truthfully do not even like him. Though I play with him and have enjoyed sex with him for most of two years now. Which in good measure does not say anything great about me I am afraid. When we first saw each other I was doing it mostly for my husband so he could get to know Moira but after they got things going I told Ford I no longer wanted to see him and we did not for months. But then the time came when I no longer had as much interest coming my way from other men as well as Gerry and we sort of made our peace with one another and adjusted to one another for the good we could derive from each other. I know perhaps sad but true. Aging in America.
    • officegirl
      Gerry grew up in a well-connected political family where a lot was expected of him in terms of achievement, manners, and morals. His father worked in D.C. for awhile. He had girlfriends when he was young but once he and Hope married it was very serious and nose to the grindstone which is the kind of person he is. She took up real estate and became very successful while he started an environmental solutions company which involved a lot of outdoors as well as indoor work. They challenged in a friendly but competitive way to see who could be the most successful. After their divorce she married someone else in the field and they have together built one of the highest volume agencies in the state. For which Gerry and Hope's youngest Marlene now works. Took Gerry a while I think to become accustomed to me as I am not a businesswoman like his ex but more take the traditional role of homemaker as far as cooking and cleaning and laundering etc. So more a supportive role to him though I do work five days a week and am well-paid I seldom bring the work home with me. So although Gerry misses the stimulation of the competition with Hope - he has not done as well since they broke up though certainly seems well enough to me - he has come to enjoy I think the kid of support I enjoy giving him . And which I think he needed in his life at that point. Hope needed to have an orgasm before she could lubricate for sex so he would go down on her or otherwise bring her off first before intercourse when he would continue with her until she had a second O at which point he would finish. So he developed lots of patience being married to her. Eventually he did have an affair with someone he was working with and she fount out about it and felt betrayed and shamed so there ensued an acrimonious divorce founded mostly upon pride. It was apparently important for her to marry soon after their divorce was final because I guess it was important for her to appear desirable after her husband had "strayed" although as far as affairs go seems it was inconsequential and certainly was not the effect of any lessening of love for Hope. He feels so responsible for everything - when I met him he was still seeing on occasion and giving money to the woman he had an affair with while he was married - he didn't know he even had any other options! And I think a big part of him will always love Hope. Being together with them when it is just them I do really get a sense of what they were like together and how they were accustomed to being with each other. Which was not in any way negligible. And for a while I was terrified they would get back together in spite of her marriage. But happily he became accustomed to having me around and sort of got to like the way I did things and I think having the kind of support I give him though as I mentioned he doesn't like it if I get overly solicitous. But I would like to think he feels more a whole person with me and less just a cog in some greater assembly.
    • officegirl
      And of course there is a difference between meeting when you are young and getting together in your 50s. Besides both being older and financially secure, we had definite approaches to our lives which we knew we wanted to continue while adding to them our being together. And meeting and discovering one another itr was quite romantic - even dramatically so - how much on the same page we were on so many levels. And for both of us there was this sense that OK we had found the person we had always dreamed of being with - though maybe we had never dreamed at all about that! I knew I wanted to be with him for the rest of my life before I had even imagined having sex with him. Because that connection and sense of discovery was so strong. Also I did not have kids so it was just my being able to embrace and have his girls accept me. Which Kendra did immediately though took Marlene, who was closer to her father and more hurt by the separation and divorce, a few years and living with us to get there.
    • dorat
      Wow! Lots there - and unfortunately I am not sure I can address it all. First, though, I just want to be clear that I did not mean "calibrate" as a negative. Merely as a descriptive. Maybe that was not even the best word though even now I struggle to find a better one. Also keep in mind that I agreed with much of what you said. The bottom line is that I am not really in a position to make a judgement about your relationship to your husband, and words on a website can scarcely do justice to helping me understand a marriage. So what I wrote was more speculative to get you thinking than definitive. However, a few things stick out in your comments. First, you wrote: "Why would you think Gerry feels no sense of success with me when in fact he has "satisfied" me 98% of the time form day one?" The problem is that defines his satisfaction entirely in terms of your own. The emotional dynamic is far more complicated than that. The fact that he is not the only man who can satisfy you - even if he understands it intellectually - will tend to weaken whatever sense of satisfaction he gets. That's especially true for a man who is as naturally competitive as your husband appears to be. (We live and work in DC, too, and I am very much in the political world. I am not one of them, but I have seen those competitive types.) It may be a turn-off for you - and the guys you were with in that van sound as dumb as a box of rocks - but your husband is naturally competitive and it stands to reason that, like it or not, he may not get a sense of accomplishment with you in the sense you are thinking of it. You don't like the talk of competition - and yet you have almost set it up AS a competition. You set up a field goal and he kicked it. For him it is, "yeah, and so did every Peyton Manning who came along." Not much accomplishment when everyone can do it. (You are also, here, ignoring a lot of the difference between male and female psychology.) You say his feelings are not facts - as if feelings are not facts, especially when it comes to relationships. Indeed it is all but impossible to define relationships in any way that excludes feelings. In that sense you are spitting into a hurricane. In any case, just because we cannot always be "the best" in fact, does not mean that everyone can simply wipe away that desire to be the best - especially, as with your husband, he is already a very competitive man. Second, you dispute that there is a need for sex, rather than simply a desire. Okay, so put it to the test. Stop having sex with other men. (I suggest this as a hypothetical.) Given that your husband would probably flip if you came to him and not only said that he is all you need, but that you are going to conform your actions to your word, who knows what difference it might make. (Note here that I suggest no criticism, but merely note a disconnect between your protestations and your action.) My gf and I realized that we had - yup - needs. She in fact believes strongly that men's sexual needs are exactly that, and I have come to learn that although a woman's needs are different, they are no less urgent. However, if the need does not exist, the acid test is to stop. (Oh, and by the way, you are bang on about Gerry and Moira. I recently became involved, at my gfd's suggestion no less, with a friend of her's who is going through an awful divorce. Her vulnerability and need to be loved fires off every protective male instinct in my body and has made the sex between us very special. That said, from a guy's perspective, it is not the same as the feeling you get with being with a woman you love.) By the way, it is interesting that you denounce the competitive side of things - and in truth you are abstractly correct if normatively hopelessly utopian - but I see constant comparisons in your writing. "I'm older." "She's prettier," etc.
    • dorat
      CONTINUED FROM ABOVE: You are competitive in a sense, just less overtly so. (By the way, I am not sure I would prefer being with Moira, but I see the attraction. By the same token, at age 23 I had a relationship with a 62 year old woman. I found her wildly sexy and so much more experienced than I was that it was a turn-on. For that matter, I find you - without knowing what you look like - to be sexy in a lot of ways. I could imagine having a sexual relationship with you quite easily. The truth is that Moira and "Officegirl" both have qualities and attractions that I find appealing. She is young and vulnerable. You are older, experienced and fascinating to talk to. It is not either/or, as indeed your own (good) relationship with your husband makes clear. Anyhow, as ever, even though I think I barely scratched the surface on this one, a great conversation.
    • officegirl
      Don't know how "young and vulnerable" she is - only five years younger than myself. And we all want security but she is more careful not to risk the security in her marriage by putting herself out there - I think she wants to be taken care of - which Gerry is good at and I would guess so is her husband as far as other kinds of support. 2. Your original context was that G. does not have the sense that he can satisfy me in a way that no other man can. Which I took to mean my sexual satisfaction. And his only in the sense that he provides me with it. Which is basically as far as he got in terms of his satisfaction. He learned that was what he was supposed to do and has stuck with that all his life. Taking care of others. The times I encouraged him, for one reason or another, to just go for himself with me, started to bring out another whole exciting side of him but one which he is not comfortable with since it is "selfish". So he would go along and no doubt enjoy and fall asleep but then be embarrassed and apologetic later like it was somehow irresponsible. We are older and probably not going to change our ways. (new paragraph) And I guess a little disturbing to me that you seem to believe the solution is "stop having sex with other men" - which I have been told my whole life is the solution to everything. Just be with one man only and everything will be OK. Even if I want to be with others and they want me well that is no good because you just have to only be with one man and that's all. Just conform to what the sociologists have put one me. "Conform your actions to your word" - which I guess to you leaves no room for desire. Like somehow we are dead mannequins with no desire for sex at all. (new paragraph) As far as competition I never had the looks to compete with other women so that was not even an option. I made myself welcome by working in the kitchen, cleaning the house, having little jobs so I would not be a financial drain, and just in general making myself available. I expected less and learned to work with what came my way. Comparing is not competing. Though of course some competition is natural and men get very used to it so handle it better than we often tend to. Women Dorat tend to view each other as the same or at least interchangeable. To our detriment. So rather than learning from and emulating another woman who has excelled or succeeded in something we too often attribute it just to looks , clothing, luck, or knowing or fucking the right people. I hope I have never done that but I understand the mechanism because I constantly see it all around me. Because there is some need on our part to believe that we are all the same , on the same level, so if one of us excels for whatever reason we are suspect and not "playing the game". and are subject to jealousy, hatred, and backstabbing. I am very low key but because I have become such a fixture at this company I am basically hated and resented by a number of the women here, esp those who don't know me at all. No one who works with me. But the stories I have heard about myself - things that have no basis in fact by any stretch of the imagination! I did well here because I played it straight and tried to do the best I could. Men don't have those feelings about me and they are the ones who have been encouraging to me. (new paragraph) I don't buy that sex is a "need" since we don't need it to survive. Of course is natural to want it - but that is a desire. So we go with our desires. Nor do I buy that men, any more than us, "need" it. I have talked with dozens of men on AB who for lack of social graces or whatever reason have done without sex for years and they are none the worse for it. And I have dated similar aging men who had pretty much given up on sex and tailored my activities with them to whatever spark of desire they had left in them. Once we start viewing sex as somehow a need - like food and shelter and clothing - then unfortu
    • officegirl
      nately the government can come along and "regulate" it. And you despair of sex being made a commodity. Difference between male and female psychology: we seek relationship which provides us with security, you seek successful accomplishment in society. Which is why I have broken myself down into a series of accomplishments that men can be successful at as long as they like me enough to want to be. But thank you, enough on this for now.
    • dorat
      A few points. Just to be clear - my solution was not to suggest that you stop having sex with other men. I merely offered it as a hypothetical. If you don't NEED it than you should be able to dispense with it at no cost to your own happiness. As to conforming your action to your word, my point there was simply that you said your husband was the most important to you - so demonstrate that to him by foregoing others. In any case, as I noted, I offered it more as a thought experiment - a hypothetical - more than anything. As I also mentioned - and stressed - there is really no way for me, over the Internet - to accurately judge your marriage and what about it works and does not. About the most I can do is listen to what you say - and your husband gets no vote - and offer ideas for you to toss around in your head. Where you got the stuff about mannequins and all the rest escapes me. If anything, you are making more artificial distinctions than I am. To wit, second, you wrote: " Your original context was that G. does not have the sense that he can satisfy me in a way that no other man can. Which I took to mean my sexual satisfaction." The problem, of course, that sexual satisfaction does not break down into the neat physical/psychological dichotomy you seem to be suggesting. Undoubtedly your husband feels physically satisfied and is happy that he pleased you. However, there is more to it than that. Indeed, without rehashing old stuff, I refer you to that WSJ article I mentioned earlier where they noted that science increasingly believes that sex is actually MORE emotional for men than for women. You may be projecting more of you onto your husband than you think. Third, I don't know how "young and vulnerable" either. I simply extrapolated from what you wrote. In all the to-ing and fro-ing you need to recognize that imprecision of expression is going to play its part here. I can only write based on what I understand from what you write. You are a good writer, but no one is perfect - and between your writing, the psychology behind your writing, and my interpretation of what you wrote, there is a world of opportunity for error and misunderstanding. Wars between countries have started over less. As to what you wrote about how women view each other, I will take you at your word, but I have a gf who does not see it quite that way. You may be reading more of you into that then a general observation will bear. Women DO react differently - and blatantly more emotionally - than men, which may explain the vitriol being thrown your way. However, my gf has read your stuff and she thinks you are a thoughtful and articulate woman with an independent mind. Right or wrong, those who don't like you are drawing conclusions through the prisms of their own personalities and insecurities - I am not so sure what universal conclusions you can draw from that. Finally, as to sex not being a "need," You are mistaken on two counts. For the species as a whole, sex is what keeps the whole thing going. No sex, no humanity. Further, on an individual level, you are postulating an extreme. We KNOW that men who don't get sex tend to be more easily depressed, in poorer health and die younger than men who get sex more regularly. (We also KNOW that married men tend to live longer than unmarried men. The old joke is - and it feels like it.) The need for sex is NOT existential - you won't die if you don't get it. However, that does NOT mean that it is not a need on other levels short of life and death. You don't NEED to exercise, but you'll live longer and be physically and mentally healthier if you do. It is a need in that sense. Your point about the government strikes me as a wild exaggeration. The purpose of government is to nurture a virtuous citizenry by establishing rules rooted n principles by which society conducts itself. Put another way - government already does regulate sex.
    • dorat
      CONT. FROM ABOVE: That's why prostitution is illegal. (Even in the Netherlands, the red light district is strictly confined by law and women must report for regular medical examinations.) Try having sex in your front yard in the middle of the day next time. You'll see how fast the government regulates sex. It is why polyagmy is outlawed. It is why incest is outlawed. I could go on. What society, through government, tries to do is balance the imperatives of human behavior and civil rights with what conduces to an orderly society.
    • officegirl
      I will agree we all have insecurities. One way we deal with them is by experience which can mean finding a narrow course of action and attitude that "works" by making us feel more secure. Which is perhaps my life in a nutshell. I would say you often deal with yours by finding and citing some study of other that makes you feel more comfortable with yourself and what you believe. When you write "we KNOW" I know I am in for it. And that my experience and feelings will likely be negated. Because I don't think "we know" at all. Too many variables in life as well as science. For instance your assumption that sex is a given if people are married seems wishful thinking. Or that somehow single men do not engage in sex on a regular basis. Now did it ever occur to you that longevity wasn't a direct function of sex itself but rather from the simple engagement and back-and-forth of the male-female relationship itself? We don't come together just to copulate and reproduce but to interact, to blend and balance opposing (or not) energies and outlooks. To make a kind of "oneness" which we can not do by ourselves. This is what I believe and subscribe to. Now from a wholly different point of view what about all the men (and some women as well) whose experience of marriage was so negative they have sworn off anything that smacks of couplehood at all for the remainder of their lives? I have talked to them on the former AB. And they are legion. Doesn't mean they have sworn off sex or dating but rather everything involving close continuous interaction. And they live a very singular existence, often respected by others, without pair-bonding. (new paragraph) If just having sex is a "need" which promotes longevity it would seem reasonable not only that that prostitution would be more supported, but that our governments of one kind of other would be issuing vouchers to see that men, and women as well if you accept that we "need" sex too, get it when they want. Without the social necessities of meeting and courting and desiring and attracting. I would say that prostitution does go on in most areas of society. Your word, yes generic but also I think quite nasty and negative.
    • officegirl
      Quite like the term "gangbang"" which is still generic in spite of the fact that few of us think of or describe our experiences as such but rather speak of "multiple men" or our "evening". I know swingers clubs refer to them as "ladies' choice. evenings" (where partners our picked form a computer database) or "greedy girls nights". Not only do men exchange money for sex but we do as well and perhaps the time is coming when I will want to myself. Some ladies and couples of whatever age pay to be serviced by groups of experienced young men, especially young men of color - I have known some of these. All without the undesirable drugs and robbery and general seediness we associate with a certain kind of activity of this type in certain neighborhoods. (new paragraph) Please excuse my railing at govt "regulation" which comes from working in industry which is regularly "regulated".. OK you are part of government and somebody has to do it so better you than others. Now as to your "few points" - you write that if I can be happy without sex then I should somehow "dispense" with it. Like it is an unwanted burden of some sort. But I feel I was created for sex - not just for that but that is part of why I was created - so why not seek additional happiness in it? Not all sex is good or great but a necessary part often of getting to good or great sex. It can be really good and fulfilling and bonding with my husband but that is dependent on his interest in and desire for me. Which until recently was sporadic at best the last year and a half. OK very personal but before last month we had not been together since August and before that May I think and before that Feb or March. Which , please understand, is not reflection of my love for him or enjoyment of him or lack of being with him in other ways. We always spend most of every weekend together. Now I don't know but don't you think it possible I would have lost interest myself out of lack of hope if nothing else given those circumstances? As it was I was seeing Gerry's mistress's husband most Friday nights while he was with her and as well during those months I did date a few swinging or former swinging friends while he was away or busy who I knew I would enjoy and one evening met four men at a motel. Now you know. besides the obvious sexual pleasure I derive from them they also help me feel sexual and desirable and good about myself as a woman and a person. Which I do not chastise myself for especially as I know many women my age whose sex lives have largely ended. At least according to their husbands. My own mother likely did not engage in sex after about age 38. So I don't think I am doing too badly for myself. Dorat I wanted the enjoyment and thrill of sex as well as the security of marriage and I did what I could to make them happen, as I continue to do. Granted I could have used that same time and energy to better serve mankind in other ways As I do with my fund-raising activities for artistic endeavors and as Gerry and I do helping young business and arts people as well as our charitable giving. And my attitude toward sex of not "needing" but enjoying I think is consistent with other parts of my life. For instance we order a particular wine from New Zealand because we enjoy it and cannot get it locally. Now there are thousands of wines we could buy in Eastern MA but we got to like that so we continue to get it. Just like we go to farmer's markets for fresh produce which we don't "need" we can get produce other places - but we do because we enjoy it and we think it is good for us. Does that make sense? OK I will apologize and perhaps I have worn out my welcome with you and if so please forgive me. Guess it is important for me to try to get you to see things from a little different viewpoint from what you are accustomed to. Which I could be perhaps considered self-justification as well. Not sure why I feel I need to justify myself to you but maybe
    • officegirl
      I do.
    • dorat
      You postulate a lot of what is called the fallacy of the false alternative. For example, I make no presumption that marriage NECESSARILY means more sex - but it happens to be true for a variety of reasons. Not least being that a person that has to go looking for sex from a different partner has the simple practical problem of FINDING that partner over and over again. A married person WILL, on average on the other hand, come home to that partner night after night, guaranteed. Oh, and guess what? Where a man is in a sexless marriage, he tends to get more depressed, not to be as healthy and may die younger than a comparable man where sex is part of the marriage. Same outcome as if he were not married at all. You make a distinction between sex and the interpersonal nature of the relationship that is artificial. Sex IS part of the interpersonal relationship. They are two sides of the same coin. As to the thought that there would be a higher demand for legalized prostitution if sex produces longevity. Again, fallacy of the false alternative. Not necessarily so. We do not make these choices as an abstraction divorced from the broader circumstances. Rather, society weighs the value of the added longevity against the the costs that come with legalized prostitution. It then decides that, ON BALANCE, it is preferable not to have legalized prostitution notwithstanding whatever benefits may accrue from having it. You suggest that I am cherry picking the data that supports my views. Were you offering countervailing data and not simply anecdotes, you might have a point. However, you don't, but instead rely on stories that, whatever their factual basis, give no weight to the underlying motives and context behind those stories. Indeed, your own life experience verifies my point. You NEEDED sex to deal with the pain in your life. It is further reasonable to extrapolate that you resist the idea of giving up sex with more than one man for the same reason. Now there are more elemental factors at work in your desire/need for sex, but the point is that even you acknowledge deeper motivations than sheer enjoyment. (By the way, in that connection, the process of courtship and so forth evolved out of the need of the female to be selective in finding a mate, and as a way to channel the male's aggressive impulses that are part of his sex drive. Primitive man competed aggressively to mate with females. Suffice to say, such violence was highly disruptive. So society, as man evolved and civilization came into being, simply adapted to the needs of evolutionary biology by developing elaborate rules of courtship and ultimately by creating the institution of marriage. As a further point, you may have seen in recent news stories coming especially out of Africa and Syria, as civilization breaks down in war torn countries, rape becomes a "weapon of war." As society's rules lose their force, more primitive instincts reassert themselves.) Pair-bonding, by the way, is more a cultural manifestation than an evolutionary one. As you can see with other primate species. (For example, present day silver back gorillas have "harems" of many females. We come from the same evolutionary tree.) In short, the flaw in your argument is that you tend to separate your enjoyment of sex with a need for sex, failing to ask yourself WHY you enjoy sex and WHY you feel you were made for sex. Anyhow, sorry for the brief answer. It deserves a more elaborate response than you got. However, we've got a busy weekend. Gotta run. Hope all is well. By the way, no need to feel you must justify anything. The point of these discussions is academic, not about justifying anything to anyone.
    • officegirl
      Goodness. Guess I touched a nerve. I'm sorry, did not expect you would lash out and condemn me like that. Really have worn out my welcome.
    • dorat
      You read that as condemning you? Please re-read. I was writing fast, I admit, but how you came to that conclusion escapes me. Especially read my last few lines. My point was simply to note, intellectually and NOT pejoratively,. what you were missing in your argument. Believe me, I intended neither to offend nor to condemn.
    • dorat
      Just wanted to add, by the way - and here I can only speak for myself - I tend not to personalize these things. To me, especially on this site, it is purely an academic discussion. I just cannot become emotional about it. In this case, I was up VERY early this morning and wrote somewhat hastily, but I can assure you that if I wanted to condemn you, I would not be subtle about it. Please re-read what I wrote. I honestly cannot see how you would take it personally. My gf and I genuinely like you - at least insofar as one can like someone you have never met face to face - and would miss your often wise, though I hasten to add not infallible, counsel.
    • officegirl
      If you don't "personalize" (your word) things then why would anything I wrote feel so threatening to you that you would need to write back things like "fallacy" and "false alternative" and discredit my life as "pain" as well negate my experiences and threaten rape in the bargain?! My experiences are part of me and in negating them I am negated as a person. Which seems obvious to me. It is so often frustrating to read your answers and comments because you seem to have a need to make things fit into your thought systems in order for you to accept them . Which I can't help thinking - why would they be so challenging to your ways of thinking that you could not just take them or leave them but you must analyze them in light of your dad's papers or this or that study? Have never known a man who tried to do that so much. Its like you need to "win" intellectually at least to your satisfaction. When I don't know anything about "evolutionary" this and that or "hunter-gatherers" or "primates" or "primitive man" etc. etc. and care even less. I am just trying to make it in 2017 with things the way they are now or, going back to the beginning of my life, with things the way they were from 1957. Does it bother you that I do not fit into any of the theories that you buy into? Because I think most people just try to live and get on as best they can. And even you did not read all your father's studies in order to learn how you should behave. All so-called studies start with a pre-existing point of view or conditions. And even if they do not then they cover only a limited sample group or groups. No one ever asked me to be a part of any of those studies so when I read them or when you tell me about this or that that I cannot help but be sort of amused that people take it all so seriously when my life experiences, and those of people I know and have talked with, differ so greatly from the findings of your studies. (new paragraph) When analyzing my own behavior I try to look at what reasons I might possibly have had for this or that I did. I did not "need" sex to "deal with the pain" in my life. In fact it probably didn't 'deal" with the pain I felt at all. Rather it distracted me from it or covered it over. Imagine being 16 and disaffected and feeling you did not fit in anywhere and were not capable at all of fitting in by any stretch of the imagination. Even to the point of questioning your own gender. Then you discover that men want to have sex with you and suddenly you have a connection to "society" and you feel more accepted and worthwhile so you feel more able to give back in other ways as well as sex. And turns out not only to be your connection but often provides extreme pleasure! (new paragraph) Please do not cast my life as "pain" because although there has been some , especially in my adolescence and young drug days and their aftermath, my life has mostly been anything but painful. May be I talk about the pain disproportionately on here but I don't mean to. You are very sensitive to people's pain. I think it is just one of the conditions of life and we learn how to deal with it. Like being raped does damage to us but we can choose whether we want to remain just a "victim" or whether we want to get up and go on with our lives as best as we are able. I have been very fortunate in my life and some of that has resulted from my making the right choices and listening to others and learning from others. Certainly I have made many wrong choices as well, just in my marriage since 2011. Trying to make a bit of a "swinger" out of my husband , encouraging him to do things he was not ready for, being too quick to choose my own selfish indulgence over what would have been best for our relationship. All of which I have been in essence forgiven for because of all the goods we do have and have always had together. Now being older and wondering how many years I have left of sexual activity of any kind. If I were sa
    • officegirl
      I could take your suggestion about giving up other men as indeed I tried to on a number of occasions if I were say 30 again. To do so now though I wonder if I would be kissing it all goodbye. My husband's recent interest in me seems to have been inspired by an affair with someone I met through work, not someone I work with but a man who is an executive of a client company. Interesting to me if it is in part competitive is that my Friday evening activities with his mistress's husband apparently did not inspire any interest in me at all. Perhaps because he knows there is no threat there and it is all, at least on my part and my partner's, innocent fun. And as I have indicated to you I have taken steps to make it simpler for Gerry so he will stay interested in me hopefully for a longer period of time this time. Honestly Dorat I can't claim much for my current little affairs. With Ford I keep my hand in and provide Gerry with access to Moira. With Henry I now have some very good orgasms - he has found a the position for it - but it is all over much too soon it is disappointing to me. Plus he treats me like somehow I am saving his life and wants shower me with affection and gifts which are not appropriate. Deep down I know he is thinking how girly and easy the once feared "Hurricane Donna" (no kidding!) becomes with a little flattery and fucking. Like all of us.
    • dorat
      Just a few things. First, "fallacy of the false alternative" was not aimed at you. It is, rather, a recognized fallacy in argument. Not unlike "post hoc ergo propter hoc" and suchlike. It would never have occurred to me that you would see it as an attack. It is simply a shorthand way of identifying a flaw in an argument. You postulated an either/or and I simply pointed out that there are shades of gray. Second, I didn't identify your life as having pain and sex being how you dealt with it. You did. Third, as to analyzing everything - isn't that the point of this site? Discussion and debate and suchlike? Fourth, if we take your argument that every study starts with a point of view and is therefore somehow invalid, we could eliminate research - and indeed the scientific method altogether. Yes, most research does start with an assumption - but it is then tested against experimentation and verification. The assumption is either corroborated by the data or it is not. Fifth, actually, you fit into a certain model more than you think you do. That is hardly a bad thing. It makes you part of the human condition. Would you rather that you were not? We are all fallible and carry in us the strengths and foibles of both our ancestry and our personal past. That's a good thing. The person who separates him or herself from that usually either fancies him/herself a god or a lemming. In any case, your personal experiences are, in and of themselves, not terribly useful for analytical purposes. Test your experiences against a wider database, and then you are on to something. Anecdote is not, in and of itself, valid evidence. Finally, you suggest that I need to feel that I've won. Well, I enjoy an intellectual argument - it's part of what I do for a living - however, honestly, I don't much care if you agree with me or not. I enjoy the give and take, but if you don't agree, I love my kids, I love my gf, I have a good job, and whether you agree with me or not does not make a material difference to the things that give me happiness. Bottom line, you seem quick to take offense and to interpret things in the worst way, making no allowance for honest disagreement nor the fact that writing, however clear, especially on the internet, inevitably leaves open the risk of misinterpretation. So anyhow, no offense intended and from here on I will avoid the problem by avoiding commenting on your experiences. (Seems the safest way to go.) I'll answer your questions, but I simply will make no reference, nor respond, to your experiences, only my own and what I have learned. There is no point offending where no offense was intended, after all. Sorry to be so brief. Gotta run.

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