by fearfulkitty on July 11th, 2008

fearfulkitty

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Has it ever been legally determined as to when life begins?

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  • by Anonymous on July 11th, 2008

    Anonymous

    No. Courts have determined when a fetus becomes a person so that legal rights vest, but no court (in the U.S.) has made a determination as to when life begins. And I suspect no precedent setting court ever will. This is a scientific (or maybe a religious) question, but not a legal one.

    Scientists have determined when life begins (i.e. at conception), but the law does not really care about this. why? Because it is irrelevant.

    For example, historically, you could only murder a fetus if it were born alive. If I punched you in the stomach at 9.5 months, and you miscarry, I would have only been charged with murder if your fetus was born alive and then died. The reason for this is child birth was dangerous, and nearly half of all children were still born.

    As medical science advanced, so did the law. Today, in nearly every state, you can be charged with murder if you kill a fetus (note the exact timing varies by state). This is because today, even premature babies, have a high survival rate. However, whether you look at historic law or the currents law, the point life begins is irrelevant.

    Similarly, in Roe v. Wade (and it progeny), the Supreme Court held that a woman has the right to an abortion so long as the fetus is not viable. Thus, even if life begins at conception, the court only cares about whether or not the fetus could live separated from the mother.

    As a side note: I am willing to predict that the right to an abortion will eventually be abolished WITHOUT overruling Roe v. Wade. Why? As medical science advances, eventually a fetus will be viable shortly after conception. If this is true, then that is when a mothers right to abort will end (regardless as to whether when life begins).

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  • by I'm a ginger on July 14th, 2008

    I'm a ginger

    The federal law bans "partial-birth abortion," a legal term of art, defined in the law itself as any abortion in which the baby is delivered feet-first "past the [baby's] navel . . . outside the body of the mother," or "in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother," before being killed. The complete official text of the law, in a searchable format, is here.

    In recent months, some commentators, including Linda Greenhouse of The New York Times and Kenneth Jost of Congressional Quarterly, have argued that the term "partial-birth" is misleading because the method is usually used months before the end of a full-term pregnancy. (It is most often used in the fifth and sixth months, but sometimes later.) These objections rest on a baffling failure to recognize that legal "live births" commonly occur long before full term -- indeed, "live births" are commonplace even early in the fifth month of pregnancy. Legally, under the laws of virtually every state and under federal law, once a human is entirely outside the mother and draws breath, or shows other signs of life such as heartbeat or movement of voluntary muscles, a live birth has occurred, and all the protections of law attach — whether or not the baby is “viable” (capable of long-term survival). At the stages of development at which most partial-birth abortions are performed, the great majority of babies would be legal “live births” if they were expelled by spontaneous premature labor, and many would be long-term survivors. For further discussion of the relationship between the legal definition of "live birth" and the legal definition of "partial-birth," click here.

    In February 1997, Ron Fitzsimmons, the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, told the New York Times that “in the vast majority of cases” the method is used on “a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along” (New York Times, Feb. 26, 1997). Twenty weeks is halfway through a full-term pregnancy — the middle of the fifth month.
    http://grove.ufl.edu/~prolife/


    Couldn't post as a comment for some reason

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  • by Luc Thiet Thuan on July 11th, 2008

    Luc Thiet Thuan

    Yes, and it changes from place to place. It is normally regarded as the time after contraception that you can still have an abortion.

    However, i know that in the UK that if you kill a baby before it has been born, then it does not count as a murder.

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  • by Im Alec has abandoned this account on July 11th, 2008

    Im Alec has abandoned this account

    Legal rulings will vary between jurisdictions. Because, inconvenient though it is, life is not an on/off switch - at either end. In both cases there is definitely not live, and definitely live - and a significant area in between.

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  • by DA BEN DAN yanggui zi on September 2nd, 2010

    DA BEN DAN yanggui zi

    the definition seems to constantly change

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  • by I'm a ginger on July 11th, 2008

    I'm a ginger

    The legal definition in most states in the U.S. say when they are removed from the womb

  • by Bruce Barron on September 2nd, 2010

    Bruce Barron

    It has never been legally determined as to when life begins and since this is known the Court is morally and legally[constitutionally] obliged to reverse itself.Congress or the state legislatures can reverse it.

    1. When does life begin?
    * In 1981 (April 23-24) a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee held hearings on the very question before us here: When does human life begin? Appearing to speak on behalf of the scientific community was a group of internationally-known geneticists and biologists who had the same story to tell, namely, that human life begins at conception - and they told their story with a profound absence of opposing testimony.

    Dr. Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, Harvard medical School, gave confirming testimony, supported by references from over 20 embryology and other medical textbooks that human life began at conception.

    * "Father of Modern Genetics" Dr. Jerome Lejeune told the lawmakers: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion ... it is plain experimental evidence."

    * Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, added: "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

    * Dr. McCarthy de Mere, medical doctor and law professor, University of Tennessee, testified: "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."

    * Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, concluded, "I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty ... is not a human being."

    * Dr. Richard V. Jaynes: "To say that the beginning of human life cannot be determined scientifically is utterly ridiculous."

    * Dr. Landrum Shettles, sometimes called the "Father of In Vitro Fertilization" notes, "Conception confers life and makes that life one of a kind." And on the Supreme Court ruling _Roe v. Wade_, "To deny a truth [about when life begins] should not be made a basis for legalizing abortion."

    * Professor Eugene Diamond: "...either the justices were fed a backwoods biology or they were pretending ignorance about a scientific certainty[internet]


    2.Does abortion end a human life?
    First, when does human life begin? According to physicians, biologists and scientists:


    conception (fertilization) marks the beginning of the life of a human being ... There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological and scientific writings."1
    Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981, p.7[internet]

    I ask are human being and person identical? What is a human being if it is not a person?

    Blackmum's statement on Roe vs Wade:"We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins when those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine,philosophy,and theology are unable to arrive at any concensus,the judiciary,at this point in the development of man's knowledge,is not prepared to speculate as to the answer."

    The Senate Judiciary Subcommittee,Apr.23-24,1981 determined that the Court had all the necessary evidence as given above and more than enough knowledge was available not to make the ruling they made.[internet]

    Now are a human being and person the same thing the obvious answer is yes.
    If you have a conceptus that is obviously human,a real entity or being,living,undergoing constant organized change and movement or motion,a unique individual being formed once the sperm fertilizes the ovum,it necessarily is a person.Every being must have a subject that undergoes change and motion.What would be the reason for change unless there is a subject of its change and motion.The subject here must be a person since like generates like.Things change and they have a name.Embryo and fetus simply denote size or quantity of matter visibly present.What is the cause of this life and the cause of this intrinsic motion.There must be some guiding principle just as there must be guiding principles of right reasoning.Thinking follows certain intrinsic principles or goes haywire.
    The entity or being that is human and alive has a principle of motion and change and must be possessed by a subject.This subject is the person.

    So abortion ends a human life and there is no such thing as a human life that is not possessed by a person.The conceptus is an actual constituted being and this being is a person.There is no such thing as a human life that isn't a person.

    Just as the walnut is the smallest tree so the conceptus is the smallest person.
    A tadpole is an actual being or a being in act.Does it become a frog or is the tadpole an actual being that cannot become a frog because it already is a frog. It will aquire its final form by change and internal movement to become the full grown frog which it always was to begin with.

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