Thanks for your reply. Your point is well taken, and of course you speak from experience. I suppose, however, I should have clarified my question a bit. We are talking here of consensual relationships between adults. Not so much a situation where the person grew up in an incestuous situation. As a (somewhat imperfect) example, there is the German case I noted above. The mother had given up her son for adoption and met him years later not realizing he was her son until later. They continued the relationship after learning that they were related, but by all accounts they had a normal social life - in fact, somewhat unusual given European culture, they even attended church regularly. In a nutshell, they had what would be defined as a functional relationship. When the mother became pregnant by her son, their relationship was discovered by the authorities and legal action followed. (Amazingly, the baby was born - in a prison hospital - healthy with no serious abnormalities. The son, who was just released from prison, is suing for custody of his child.) However, to that time, by all accounts, they had an otherwise normal relationship with friends, jobs, etc., to all outward appearances. Still, your point about socialization, at least for girls, is very well taken. If it is not too personal, may I ask how your relationship with your brothers is now? Do you get along, etc.?

I thought I answered already. Not sure why, out of my experience, you want to focus of that. Which was just a few times six years ago. I guess I wanted to feel it was something special and healing for us - women want to feel that being with us is transformative. When I visited to introduce them to my husband they were just trying to kid and embarrass me . Like it was made me feel used and unappreciated. Which I probably should have expected knowing. them as I do. No we don't have any real contact except more formal. But then we never did except when I would visit them and they always teased me but were generally supportive. Which I guess they still would be. I have more contact with their kids and am close enough to my oldest niece and her husband and child that they visit and stay with us usually once a year.

Sorry, I actually only meant how your relationship was to your brothers now. I don't recall you mentioning that. Please don't ever answer if you think it too personal.

Dear I have been too personal for years on here and don't intend to stop now!

Well, I didn't mean to offend - and if I wasn't clear the only question I had was how your relationship was now. This followed from the fact that my gf thinks it is not implausible that sex can be a way for family members to express their love for each other. Of course, context is everything, but if your relationship got worse, then you would have to say that my gfd's thinking does not stand up very well. Hence, why I recurred to the question.

My reference was not to anything your girlfriend said. You know my misgivings about that. But we were in our 50s! Part of my second adolescence. I got hung up on the idea and just had to see it through. Was all a mistake. Though being with my younger brother (who is two years older) was some of the best sex of my life. We were so suited physically to one another and I responded to him like crazy. Wonder if he ever thinks about it? I do. Which means nothing. But they are who they are and I am who I am and that is in the past.

Well, that would have been okay even if it HAD been about what my gf said. I don't even remember how she and I got into the conversation, but she said that given that humans use sex as an expression of love, and that we love our parents and siblings, she could understand how having sex with a family member happens and that, assuming it is consensual and that it does not become exclusive of other relationships - the scientists call it "normalized incest" - that it might be normal and happy and bring us closer to members of our family. Frankly, while there are a few cases of that, as I told her, it is NOT the norm with incest, and she admitted that the idea does not do much for her. That said, I am not quite sure, even after you have patiently explained it, that I completely understand what happened in your case - and I get that you seem to regret it, even as you suggest that you enjoyed the sex with your brother - so I take you at your word. Still, I do remember that you wrote that it was special in some sense. So maybe in some way that you look back on the sex with him as pleasurable because it helped you feel closer to him. A person you love but whom your family relationships never allowed you to express it the way you wanted to. Just a guess on my part - and only worth what you paid for it. As for what he feels, probably more than you think. Here is a quote that appeared in a Wall Street Journal story on a recent study of the differences between how men and women view sex - "'For some men, sex may be their primary way of communicating and expressing intimacy,' says Justin Lehmiller, a Harvard University social psychologist who studies sexuality. Taking away sex 'takes away their primary emotional outlet.'....Experts believe sex is a more emotional experience for men than for women. Men tend to express feelings with actions, not words. Unlike a lot of women, they probably don?t have heart-to-heart chats with everyone from their best friend to the bus driver, and they often limit hugs and physical affection to their immediate family." [END OF QUOTE.] One other related bit of research. I remember when my gf was breast feeding and we would have sex and end up breast feeding from her. (The unlovely scientific term is "lactation sex.") It made me feel so good and relaxed and special and wanted by my gf - I can't really even describe it. Turns out that researchers believe that when a man or a woman breast feeds during sex that it subconsciously calls to mind when they were babies and were cared for by their mothers. So that is definitely a relationship to incest. So you never know. Your brother probably will never tell you on his own what it meant to him - or if you ask he might do the "guy thing" and deny that he felt anything, but you know the old saying, "Still waters run deep." Remember, he grew up in the same family you did - which if I might say without, I hope, insulting, seemed to be people who were lonely in a crowd. This much I can say as a guy, with no reflection on the incest question one way or the other, he needed to be loved as a boy as much as you did as a girl. So don't be too hard on yourself. Maybe it was not the best thing to do, but who knows? For a time, in his 50s - which for many men, the studies show, is a difficult time when a man is finally coming to grips with the limits in his life - you may have made him feel loved and wanted and happy in his own family - even if he didn't recognize it himself.

Thank you, I don't think we need to search out scientific names to classify it by in our minds so we can get a good night's sleep. And does occur to me that focusing on my having been with my brothers smacks to some extent of prurient interest. Sells advertising. If you want to you may label that whole period of my life from about 2008 to 2013 as sort of a second adolescence in that I was learning a lot of new things and feeling good about myself and my sexuality. Perhaps that was the ultimate challenge - seducing my brothers. Not that I took it as a challenge at all but it was just something that got into my head. Always, esp when growing up, I looked up to them - they were life models as well as models of male behavior. Though I knew I could never approach their abilities and social skills. It started with an AB question to the effect of would you have sex with your siblings etc. And thinking of that really for the first rime I thought yes I would much rather be with them than a lot of men. And I guess just at that point starting to imagine things like their taking turns with me eroticized them for me. Which did not take much because they were and are handsome and manly. And please understand Dorat part of what was behind it was my long-standing and perhaps even desperate need to be accepted by them, especially as a woman and it just seemed to me that I would achieve that by being with them. And to be able to regard them just as men rather than some kind of models and icons I could never hope to measure up to was very freeing for me to contemplate.

And hardly imagined I would do it but when Rick was in town on business and staying with me the first night I knew I had to try and came on to him - you know like a lot of touching, praising him, suggestive talk, showing my legs etc. until he got it and he said something like "you want to make love?" That was how he put it. And I was "I want us to be together" and I think he wanted to but he came out with reason after reason why we should not and finally almost becoming angry with me like if we did it I did not know what I would be in for. But one thing I know about both my brothers is they are suckers for female companionship even of the more experimental kind. And I got close to him and took his hands and sort of guided them over me like showing him how I wanted to be explored. Soon we were out of our clothing and in bed and it was like he was not happy with me at all but it was more a challenge for him to be with me. And this gave him the I guess aggressiveness he needed to go through with it. He took about complete control from then and I gave myself to him completely and there was about no tenderness at all but like he wanted to teach me a lesson. Which of course I was ready for and he put himself up me very quickly and I felt just like oh we are doing it and I am his and he started like he was trying to punish me or something but the connection and feelings were immediate and I was just responding to him and not even thinking about it as I need to with most men and eventually when he got how much I was into it he became more tender but still in control and was clearly going to get me off which he did again and again and I was just holding him and feeling and being carried along by him and coming and coming like every few minutes until finally he moaned and came and collapsed on me and after lying there a couple of minutes we just looked at one another and both started laughing and he was all manly tenderness and I was the love or sex object which I had perhaps always so desired to be with him. It was like ancient hurts deep within me were all beginning to be healed. And the next day when I got home from work he took me in his arms and we were going within minutes and later that evening as well, and the next day until he had to return home. And we had started to talk about old family issues - you understand both our parents were no longer living. Among the things he told me was that John my older brother had told him - they had always been close - a year or so earlier that he had fantasized about being with me. A week or so later I received a call from John. I knew Rick would tell him what was going on. And it was " ........ (one of their stupid kid nicknames for me) what kind of femme fatale have you turned into?" Like kidding the way they have always done with me. And among the things he said was whether there would be anything for him. And I said "Well I don't know, why don't you try me the next time you are in town?" And about a month and a half later he was staying at a Boston hotel for some kind of business expo and I went to his hotel room. John was clearly by that time in his life not as good with women as Rick and I was more in control of the action as I had learned to be with older men and we made love until he came and then a little while later I played with him until he was ready and then got on top of him and eventually brought myself off with him before he moved me into another position and came with me again.

My innermost desire at that point was to be with them together and have them both up me together. We desire certain things for ourselves but the way we see ourselves is that in bestowing ourselves on others we are offering a nurturing and perhaps even healing gift. Which I know smacks of self-centered justification. But nonetheless is a very real feeling. I knew it would have to be in New York City or New Jersey where they live and work. And would have to be at a hotel or motel or third party location and not at their homes. We were first together in October (Rick) and say early December (John) and planned to all get tohether at a motel near their homes but kept not happening and not happening for various reasons until early the following March at the end of my week's vacation I had spent at the invitation of a man from Dallas and I flew back to the Newark airport where they met me and had a room for me. Being with both of them like that there was initially some uneasiness on all of our parts but the potentially intimate nature of the situation brought out conversations about (of course) our childhood and parents and eventually they laid off just the kidding and became more serious about their feelings and we decided that our being together sexually was meant to be healing for us and so meant to be. And after all that conversation I was not feeling the least bit sexy at all but they started embracing me and touching me and feeling me and it went like that until we were all in bed and Rick fucked me and I came a couple of times and then I wanted them to DP me which don't know if they were comfortable with but their attitude was they were going honor my feeling or desire as something special and really it was Rick who made it happen and lubed up so he could do the anal and all three of us together probably did not last very long before John came and then Rick but I had after maybe just a few minutes of them moving together. Then for the rest of the afternoon we talked and cried and held one another and they took turns with me until it all became rather uproarious and we were like laughing at everything and in good spirits. Which is how I want to remember it - as my being the means of our healing together some of the hurts of when we were growing up.

Of course my sisters -in-law eventually knew about it - they "confessed". Which was, the way they historically felt about me and held me, "typical" Donna making everything about sex and everything be damned. And they each analyzed my weaknesses and life as they saw it in a joint letter which I think I might still have. So already though I still held it as special for the three of us I was having to deal with the real-life fallout and having second thoughts about the whole thing. And I eventually had to explain it to my nieces and nephews which I tried to do honestly but they probably felt I was just crazy and although they all had some affection for me our relationship became more formal from that time though I still am in contact with them. My niece Cheryl and her husband represented the family at my wedding and I had a long talk with her about it at the time and she didn't condemn me but did want to know what my motivations were and so on. Later, perhaps motivated by Cheryl, I learned that we had all been "forgiven" because of the difficult nature of much of our childhood, although to me that was no real reason but I accepted it . But going with it was the unspoken directive that we would never ever do it again. When I first went to NJ with Gerry to introduce him to everyone my brothers I the car when they drove us to the house where we had lived were frankly kidding me and trying to embarrass Gerry by saying OK was I ready to go to a motel and they had a room booked and was he ready to share and all this which made me just furious though I bit my tongue. And they were high-fiving each other in the front seat as though the whole thing between us had been from the outset some kind of male bonding exploit in which I was the exploited one. When in fact I stated it and it proceeded from how I felt about myself and wanted to feel about myself. Then I thought well they are just being themselves and to get along they can't take being with me all that seriously which just made me feel cheap and silly. Like I really should have known better. So since then although I communicate with their kids I have hardly talked with either of them or my sisters-in-law. Except for very brief "how are you doing" or being brought up to date on family doings.

Thanks Niki. When you mentioned it, I can remember openly masturbating with my older brother a few times. I didn't feel like I wanted to have sex with him, though. It was more a "guy thing." As I've mentioned before, my dad is a doctor and so growing up in our house nudity was not a lifestyle or anything, but it wasn't uncommon. (I saw my sister and brothers in the nude - and they me. The only time I can remember seeing my dad naked was at the gym locker room and maybe a few times coming out of the shower. I never saw my mom naked that I can remember.) Still, it was never sexual. What do you think, though, if it is consensual, do you see it as something that - if not the average - could be a legitimate expression of familial love? My gf thinks its possible, but I think that is a bit of a stretch. About the closest I could imagine was fantasizing about my sister, which, if truth be told, I did a few times when I was in my early teens. I will say this, though, your hubby must have had a great 30th!!

Were you the little brother that stole her panties and peaked in on her during her sleepovers?

No, nothing like that. It was more like thinking of a girl as an abstraction and using my sister's face in my imagination. (12 and 13 year old boys typically don't masturbate with much thought. My brain was in my penis.) There was only a year or so between us in terms of age. She did catch me masturbating one time though. (I was 17 and she was 18.) We couldn't look at each other for a week after that. To this day we still laugh about what we call "The Incident." So if anyone was peeking....

Lol tell me about it. I have a younger brother and my son is 14. If I had a dollar for every time I walked in on them! My kids walk on me and hubby all the time, so I really don't feel bad about it. My little bro definitely perve on me and my friends all the time. My one friend thought it was cute and would whisper dirty things into his ear all the time. I also caught trying to listen at my door when I would have sleep overs. We shared a jack/jill br and he would try to hid their all the time. We'd pretend we didn't see him and walk around naked or took about how we wanted to suck his cock lol. When one of my panties would disappear I always knew where to find it.

Thanks Niki - your little brother was a bit more aggressive than I was, Like I said, with a dad who was a doctor, nudity in our house was treated pretty casually, but it was not really sexual. My sister would see us boys in the race to the shower - and of course, teen boys often have a little morning wood to show off - or she would see us skinny dipping in our pool. (If my younger brother and I had been doing yard work, when we were done, rather than go upstairs to put on our swim trunks, we would just strip naked and jump in the pool. Also, all of us boys had a habit of coming down for breakfast in our underwear. My sis would skinny dip sometimes, but my brothers and I mostly saw her either on the way to the bathroom, or depending on who got there first, she would either get in the shower while I - still naked - would brush my teeth, shave, etc., or she would get ready while one of us boys were in the shower,. I don't really ever recall seeing her friends naked and given where her room was in relation to us boys, it was not likely we would overhear too much. The time she caught me masturbating she happened to come home from work early while I was home in the family room. She walked in and there I was on the couch, totally naked and - with incredible timing - I had just finished ejaculating as she walked in on me. So I had jiz all over me. She at first thought I was just naked - she had seen that before - but when she realized that I had cum all over me, she got all flustered and said, "Oh, oh OOOOOOOhhh" and quickly left the room. We laugh about it now, but at the time it was embarrassing. Around my home now, I sleep in the nude and my gf wears pajamas - unless it is really warm out, in which case, even though we have air conditioning, she will sleep in bra and panties. We actually have a little bit of a disagreement over how much nudity the kids should see at their age. I posted the question - would love to see what you think if you have time. (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/3495668) Thanks, as always, for your honesty.

No problem. I can remember times when I walked in on my brother or son just as they were cumming. What I sight seeing all that white lava! Nudity is not a big deal in our house, we've been nude with the kids since day one. We skinny dip in the summer and will share a shower if we are pressed for time. Nudity is only shamefull if you make it shameful. Studies show that kids from nude households have more overall confidence and less instances of body issue. I want my kids to know and appreciate what a real body looks like, not the phony stuff the media tries to push. Btw your gf should sleep naked or at least pantyless. After being in clothes all day your body needs to air out. It will lessen her chances of getting an infection. When you checked on your kid are you ever hard? I knew I was going to feed my kids so I never covered up. There was usually a fresh load of cum in my pussy too!

Well, I may have been hard, but I don't really remember one way or the other. I remember one time when my gf and I were starting to fool around and our second began to cry so I went in to check on him. Almost certainly I had a hard on in that case. The other times, I don't know. I do know - as I alluded to in the question, that my son caught his mother and I having sex on three different occasions. The second time we were in the living room and I saw him just as I was cumming in his mother - so he missed nothing, I'' say that. I finished and got up wobbly legged and barely able to stand and scooped him up and put him back in his bed. He didn't seemed phased by it but asked what we were doing and I just said that mommy and daddy were doing something that people who love each other do. That seemed to satisfy him and I got him his drink of water and he went back to sleep. My gf and I tend to differ on this a bit. As far as seeing mommy and daddy having sex , I agree that is the kind of thing that - especially at their ages (7,6 and 4) - they should not see. However, I came from a house like yours where nudity was taken pretty casually and I don't mind the kids seeing me naked. (I also take showers with the boys when we are in a rush, though I won't with my daughter.) My gf - as I explained in the question - is a bit more restrictive. It is not a huge argument between us or anything, but since we to and fro on it I thought I would get other people's opinions. (One of the other respondents to the question did make a fair point that the kids - for their own safety - do need to understand when certain "parts" should not be touched.) I have read the studies that you did, but that really does not sway my gf who argues - plausibly - that all sorts of other factors come into play with body image. Anyhow, I sleep naked unless it is really cold out, then mentally I just need a little more and will sleep in my underwear. (Typically in the coldest weather, I wear boxerbriefs - which my gf hates. The rest of the year it is briefs or boxers. In any case, as I think I mentioned, my gf has gotten me the world's largest underwear collection, so I have choices - and soon that will include bras and panties unless I miss my guess.) As to my gf, she has just never really been comfortable sleeping in the nude, unless maybe we are cuddling after sex. I guess it is just what she grew up with. By the way, if you don't mind my asking, you have caught your son masturbating? How did he handle that? I don't think my mother ever caught me, though my dad did - sort of - one time. However, dad being a doctor, he never really cared. He tended to treat naked bodies as if they were science specimens, which I guess is where we picked up our own casual attitude. (Poor mom, she just had to get used to naked teenagers around the house. The price of doing business, she used to call it.) Anyhow, I've often wondered how I might handle that with my sons or daughter when they get older. So I would be interested in how you handled your son (or brother if you think it pertinent.) With my sister when she caught me, cum on my chest and dick and a panicked look on my face, she and I just avoided eye contact for a week. I am joking, a little bit.) Thanks in advance - and by the way, the gf and I will be out of pocket from Friday to Monday for our Valentine's Day/anniversary weekend - which this year may include me showing off the latest in women's underwear. So I won't reply right away. (I'll be having sex, right?) Thanks again, and oh, by the way, thanks for your point about doing the one on one with my gfd's friend. While my gf and I are pretty easy going about our sex life, you nevertheless made a fair point. (Funny thing, when I was having sex with her gay guy friend, my gf was the one who decided that we should call it off.

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE - She said that he was getting too attached to me - which was quite possible as it was more emotional for both of us than I expected when I got into it. However, I always read between the lines that she had decided that her friend and I were having too much fun, so to speak. She denies it, but I know that sometimes I get jealous when I see another man having sex with her, so it stands to reason that she would be jealous of me being with another woman if she was jealous of me being with a man - even when it was her idea that I be with him. Both of our attitudes have been that we don't surprise each other and that when we feel jealous we need to think not of our feelings but how the person we love is feeling. When we get jealous, we are in that sense being selfish. We love each other too much to be like that. Sex between us is special in ways that I just can't describe - but we both understand that we have, for lack of another term, animal instincts too. (That said, I think that is harder for me to do as a man - that primal need to sexually dominate my mate, don't ya know - but I may be stereotyping there.) In the case of her friend, though, it has as much to do with how lonely she seems to be. Her divorce, I'll spare you the details, has been a nightmare. The guy she was married to has turned out to be a real "a-hole" and she told my gf that the sex we had that night made her feel loved for the first time she could remember in ages. That's what prompted my gf to make her offer - and I have to admit, I feel for her friend and if being with me would help, well, it may be that I am just flattering my own ego, but I would be moved if I could help her. It is not pity sex, it is more compassion for a lovely woman who I won't lie, I find attractive. I guess seeing her so vulnerable also makes me feel protective and makes me want her to feel reassured. If having sex with her does that, I can understand. I guess that's a guy thing. Anyhow, I digress. I just wanted to say that BOTH my gf and I thought it was great that you had given it that much thought and we BOTH appreciated your advice. Anyhow, if it is not too personal, what happened with your son and how you both handled it. Thanks and, if we don't before then, we'll chat after the holiday weekend.

Well, I am in no position, at this distance and not at all knowing you or your family, to offer any authoritative response. Analysis over the Internet is the least reliable and perhaps worth only what you paid for it. I will say, though, that an alternative view of your brother's behavior is that they both sound like men trying to hide from feelings. They got too close, they felt too much, and so they try to deal with it by making light of it. It may - and I stress "may" - be that it meant as much to them as to you, but men of their generation are socialized to deal with those feelings in a different way. (Indeed, you have suggested that they cheated on their wives. This opens up the possibility that closeness to any female - let alone their sister - is a problem for them.) Throw in the nature of your childhoods, and add in the sexual dimension that you and your brothers were in, and it is at least a possibility. About the only analogy I can offer is how I acted after my affair broke up and the woman I was seeing had the abortion. (I think I've told you about that before.) The last thing I wanted was closeness and I shut down. I drank too much, fobbed off everyone with a joke, walked away from my family for a time, endangered my career, and until I met my gf - who really had to struggle to break my shell - I came across as harsh and uncaring. However, the comparison to what you and your brothers went through is so different that I am not sure the analogy holds up in any but the most superficial way. Still, I offer it to suggest that men sometimes not only do not deal well with honest open emotion, but do so counterproductively. None of this in any way excuses the way your brothers treated you. They were cruel and it is sad that someone as kind as yourself had to be hurt that way. You deserved better, but it may not be that they did not see it as seriously as you did. Rather, it is that nothing in their lives to that point equipped them emotionally and psychologically to handle it as well as you did. Just a thought, as I say - and perhaps too optimistic. However, if it helps to deal with your own pain, there is another way to look at this. Of course, it won't reunite you with your brothers - the damage there appears to be irreparable - but if it offers any comfort to think that somewhere, deep down, they love their sister as much as she loves them, then I think it is worth keeping that thought in your mind. You are a lovely lady and I can only hope and pray that in the fullness of years you can find some peace with your family.

What?

Niki I think he was addressing some of these comments to me but placed them under your answer. Don't know if I should comment here or above. But here goes. Dorat whatever may be flattering to your ego (and God knows we do like our egos flattered) I do want you to know that some of us go for it not because we are hurting or needy but because we love men and sex. And were we together I would be giving you the numbers of ladies like these, like myself. OK most are older - my age or almost - but they are just who I know. Don't know what we would do re flattering your ego - except just enjoying the hell out of you. I tried to get my husband together with my friend Diane and they got on but there first time together he came too fast which embarrassed him. Though she had no problem with that. But to make matters worse her husband called and sympathized which embarrassed him further. And though their next couple of times went well the sense of embarrassment he could not get past and he came back saying she was too aggressive which she is not at all - she just loves sex. So much for that attempt several years ago- I had really wanted the four of us to be close.

Officegirl, I promise. Had I wanted to address my comments to you, I would have done so. Niki and I were having a separate conversation only part of which was captured here. Honestly, sometimes dealing with you is a little like trying to touch a downed powerline.