We had NO combat losses in Desert Storm I or II of any of our armor. We did have some tanks damaged during the fighting, which is to be expected, but we had no kills against us--either mobility kills or catastrophic kills. The tanks we destroyed as a result of combat operations were either destroyed as a tactical necessity after the fighting was over, or, just simply destroyed as a measure of expediency. (that is rather then spending the resources to tow them to a main collection point) During DS II we had one Abrams get hit at almost point blank range on the side skirts by an RPG tandem round. The vehicle was damaged where the crew compartment was penetrated but no on-board ammo went off.... I'm assuming vampire girl's question about action between an Abrams, LeClerc, and a panther refers to a situation where each tank would take on the other. Well, there are two answers. 1st Answer: First and foremost, survivability in combat depends on three factors. 1) The skill of your crew in handling their vehicle 2) support from friendly forces 3) your vehicle and its ability to successfully defend itself. If you back an Abrams, LeClerc and Panther 1200-1500 meters away from each other (battlesight range) and fire with straight frontal assaults, with the best anti-armor round you'll get the following results: 1) The panther's anti-armor round will bounce off the front slopes of the Abrams and the LeClerc. In time the panther will penetrate the armor of both tanks---after up to ask many as 12-15 straight on frontal shots in the same general area. Both the Abrams and the LeClerc employe a 120mm smoothboore which can fire standard NATO KE rounds---APFSDS... 2) The abrams may penetrate the turret of the LeClerc on the first shot, it may not. It will however penetrate by the third shot....and more than likely penetrate on the sencond shot. 3) 2) The Leclerc's round may penetrate the turret of the Abrams on the first shot, it may not. It will however penetrate by the third shot....and more than likely penetrate on the sencond shot. The same would hold true if you put a Leopard II tank in place of the panther since it uses similar ammo to the American and French tanks. Some may argue with me, on this next statement but because the British Challanger has a rifled barrel, I would think its rounds would take at least 3 shots to penetrate the turrets.. 2nd Answer: When you're fighting armor, your goal is NOT to engage your enemy with straight on frontal shots. Why? Two reasons First, that is where the armor is typically thickest and your round will typically be the least effective. Second, straight frontal shots often do not offer the best target to your gunner. The target profile is smallest from the front and rear. The best way to engage an armored vehicle is with a flanking shot either dead on ( ideal ) or on the oblique--in this manner your gunner has the greatest amount of target to aim at. Typically aiming at center of mass--putting the reticle on the turret ring area, at 1000-1500 meters away the round will impact with the turret.. Taking this into consideration, in a tactical environment, survival is dependant on your crew, how well you aquire targets, engage and sense them, and then be ready to reengage if necessary or get behind some cover and concealment. Support from friendly forces is key. At a mimimum, tanks must fight in pairs to protect each other, or have infantry support for protection. Tanks are not all powerful creatures, but can be very vulnerable on the battlefield--besides making good targets :-) Back in the late 1980's I was required to take a briefing on the ballistic capabilities of American v Threat weapons. Suffice to say I was not thrilled when I left the briefing, to the point I needed a few drinks, but the next day we were reminded that the key to success in battle is not in slugging it out with the enemy, but defeating them by closing withthem and out manuevering them. One last point: During WWII, we were able to defeat german armor, not because our shermans' were better, but if a 5 tank platoon was coming down the road, and the lead tank got hit, the next two tanks charged the frontal position of the enemy while the other two tanks went for the enemy's flank and rear---more often than not we lost 3 tanks from that platoon, but destroyed the German tanks in the process.

In my opinion, the Abrams would take the match. Not to say that the LeClerk wouldn't give the Abrams a run for its money. However the Abrams fields some of the world's most advanced electronics and fire controll systrms. It also has armor that is 2nd to none, and from some of the specs I've seen in places up to a foot thick. However the crew's skill would come into play. Really it would come down to who could get the first good shot off the would walk away the victor. The Abrams v.s. the Panther would be no contest. The Abrams would knock out the Panther so quickly it wouldn't know what hit it. However if it was the Leopard tank which you meant, then although I'm not to up to date on those tanks, I imagine it would be something like the first fight.

I have a WWII Vichy Hotskiss MG...never fired, only dropped once. Bob--I would like to enter dialogue withyou re your Wermach 1939 response...if you're interested, please send me an e-mail at the address posted in my profile, or comment on one of my posts :-)

The M-1. It is truely an advanced killing machine.