Why did feminism have to kill femininity?

I really do not understand the intricacies of feminism but, from what I gather, feminism expounds upon the virtues of women being equal with men in all ways.

Now, that is all well and good but, from what I have seen of it, feminism means more: it has incorporated into itself that women have to be as aggressive as men rather than that women are equal to men. To me, it seems that feminism states that women have to be able to behave in many ways like men while they compete with men.

That is where I think the problem lies.

One of my best in-Dojang (Korean for Dojo) *ss kickings was by a 5 foot nothing woman (2nd Dan) who always came to the Dojang in nice dresses and heels, usually still having her makeup on unless she came straight from home, and left the Dojang looking just as feminine as she did coming into it. She did not like to be seen in other than her best except for in class where she dressed like the rest of us (yes, she washed the makeup off and took off her jewelry).

I was frequently partnered with her because she was an excellent infighter and handling infighters is one of my personal problems. She improved my ability to handle infighters by a significant amount.

Feminism would have told her that she had to be more "aggressive" and stop perpetuating the girly girl "stereotype."

Comments

You have many great answers. This is the best one I have seen.
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by Anonymous on December 1st, 2008
Thankyou muchly. :)
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by Arisztid on December 1st, 2008
I disagree...I don't think feminism would have 'told' her to be more aggressive; I think many feminists would applaud her skill in kicking your butt, while choosing to dress however she wants.

Oh, btw...checked out a bunch of your Roma (is that correct) links...fascinating! My dad was born near Romania, and always used to talk about the 'gypsies' he saw as a youth, I was eager to learn how Roma and Romania are not necessarily causal. I had a question though: one of the links eventually led to a page associated with Rom law, and another, on the same site posits that the India theory is incorrect for origin...what do you think about this?
http://www.imninalu.net/Roma.htm
"This fact does not imply that their origin was in the area of India. It is true that the Romany language was initially formed in an Indo-European context, but the same "Indian" words are common to other languages that existed outside the sub-continent, namely, in Mesopotamia"
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by wyldefyre on December 2nd, 2008
I think that they would have looked at her, outside of the Dojang, as too feminine.
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Yep, Roma is correct, as is Romani. :)
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There are now two current theories about us:
1) we originated in India.
2) we came THROUGH India and spent a lot of time there.
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All we know, at this stage, is that the overwhelming majority of our males share a DNA marker on our Y chromosome and we have isolated a DNA marker on our women's X chromosome. This is seen throughout India but not in ALL Indian people.
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I tend to believe the "through India" thing because of it. Until we have further DNA studies and our DNA markers are fully isolated and included in Gadje studies, we are not going to know.
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Our language is directly related to Sanskrit and has words, to this day, that are similar or even identical although someone speaking Romanes cannot understand someone speaking Sanskrit, and visa versa. The passing through India theory would allow for this as well.
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by Arisztid on December 2nd, 2008
It is an unfortunate commonality that the words "Romania" and "Romani" are so close together. Neither Romanian Gadje nor us are particularly happy about this. "Rom" just means "man" in our language.
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I meant that the Roma DNA marker on the Y chromosome is found in the Indian population but not in ALL or even most of the Indian population. Mitochondrial DNA isolation is really in its infancy so I cannot comment on that at all.
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by Arisztid on December 2nd, 2008
Thanks. Hey, the whole passing through theory makes sense...do you know about when the timing is theorized? I am very interested in a group called the 'proto-indo-europeans' (PIE) who are then theorized to have gone through Ukraine, then onto to settle and evolve as the Celts...is there any overlap with PIE or do you know if they are different timeframes?

Btw, as a feminist, I respect other women (and men) not so much for what they do or don't wear/look like, but for what they say/how they act. For example, my sister, big hair, lots of makeup, high heels, very trendy dresser and smart. I don't necessarily choose to dress exactly like her - I rarely wear dresses or makeup - even though I do know the trends as much or more, plus I don't think I need it, but it's her brain, not her body - her deeper humanity, not superficial appearance - that I respect. If I judge my sister down for her appearance, I think that I am not living feminism as it is, instead embracing silly society stds.
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by wyldefyre on December 2nd, 2008
There is no way to guess the timing yet... I am hearing that we LEFT India anywhere from 500 ad to 1200 ad, although 1000 ad is the most commonly accepted.
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Until those DNA studies are complete, the results are incorporated into Gadje studies worldwide, and the tests are all run again, we are not going to know. Those of us who believe the "through India" version believe that we originated in another part of Asia. The only Gadje population it is being tested for is in India.
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The thing about Andrea, the 2nd dan, is that most people saw, frankly, rather a delicate, feminine woman. They did not see the Andrea from the Dojang. She did not need to announce her skill either.
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I think that stereotyping feminine women as weak is silly whether or not they can kick butt. I do not consider Weak Girl (the asker), for example, to be weak.
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by Arisztid on December 2nd, 2008
As far as the proto indo Europeans, there is no way to tell other than DNA studies. There is so little record of us other than anecdotal and so little real study of us that I believe comprehensive DNA studies is the only answer. I know that we wound up in England about 500 years ago but that is far past the time period you describe. I remember a Roma skeleton being found there from before 500 years ago but it was just one skeleton.
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by Arisztid on December 2nd, 2008
Okay...the PIE movement was earlier, in place by the early greeks 2000-600 bce.

Do you have any idea where in Asia?...I found interesting the parallel theories of Judaism/lost tribe, seemingly plausible, especially when I was reading the comparison, elsewhere on that site on another page, comparing Judaic, Romani, Catholic, Indic, and 'mosaic' bible sources

I agree...the stereotyping is silly, and I think it works both ways, for non-feminists and feminists alike. Appearance is only the outside; maybe we all care about it so much because it *can* reflect who we feel we are on the inside.
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by wyldefyre on December 2nd, 2008
We have no clue as to where in Asia... none.
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There is an interesting correlation between Jewish laws and our Romaniya. Some of our Romaniya kind of look like a less modern version of the Jewish laws... kind of like they adapted to modern times better than we have. We were in India as nomads at the same time as the Jews and I have no doubt that we intermixed. I do not know if we interbred because both Jews and us are rather isolationistic (that is an understatement for us) but the correlations between our laws shows that we had closeness.
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I do not really understand the lost tribes of Israel thing so I cannot comment.
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I think that all stereotyping is silly. I always find it amusing when someone underestimates a woman, especially Keysha (my Lady). I just sit back, watch, and enjoy the show. Of course, anyone who dares harm a woman in my presence brings out my chivalric side *ahem*. Ok, I am not PC. ;)
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by Arisztid on December 2nd, 2008
One of the theories I read was that the Romani are actually the/one of the 'lost tribes'. Kinda makes sense, maybe...the DNA testing will be interesting, to see how it compares.

Your statement about the 'less modern version' was what that page was also saying...and they posited the reason as possibly due to the lost tribe theory.

Thanks for the convo. I will find you when I have more q's/have done more research. Bye!
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by wyldefyre on December 2nd, 2008
Alrighty and I enjoyed the conversation as well. I look forward to another. *waves*
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by Arisztid on December 2nd, 2008
People really have the wrong idea about feminism. I am a feminist and participate in several online feminist communities -- and being aggressive is definitely not one of the ideas. However, being assertive and standing up for yourself is.
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on February 10th, 2009
You say, "...from what I have seen of it, feminism means more: it has incorporated into itself that women have to be as aggressive as men rather than that women are equal to men."

I would say feminism means women CAN be as aggressive as men if they want/need to be. That's what being equal means. If we men don't like seeing aggressive women, that's our problem, not theirs.
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by androphiles on August 26th, 2009
I do not have a problem with aggressive women. If they are unpleasant about it, I just leave or ignore them... just like I do with unpleasant men. If they are not unpleasant, that is fine.
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by Arisztid on August 27th, 2009
Also, in retrospect, I should point out that feminism does not equal not wearing dresses, not putting on make up, etc. I have known many feminists that wore heels and dresses, and I have known feminists that wore nothing but jeans, I have even known male feminists! It's amazing, I know. But it's a GREAT to research and meet members of a group before making assumptions based on stereotypes. For an example, if I had never met a Jewish person, I wouldn't make the assumption that all Jews care about is money. See what I mean?
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 27th, 2009
Uhmmmmm... ok. Point taken.
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by Arisztid on August 27th, 2009
Thank you.
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 28th, 2009
I would appreciate next time you not reaching the conclusion that I am not open to having my mind changed when facts are provided to support the change. If I am not exposed to something, I cannot know the truth. I can only go by what I see, read, or am told.
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Thankyou in advance.
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by Arisztid on August 28th, 2009
You know, Indigo, AND adrophiles, having read this thread, I think you both need to read his answer again, and to stop and think. He was using one person as a specific example. And, if you were as open and knowledgeable as you try and make yourself sound, you would know that, as a general rule, most people equate assertive with dominating. When a woman tries to dominate things, THEN she loses the feminism.
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Women have been in control of more than admitted ever since there were men and women. Behind the scenes, men ask their wives opinions, unless they are idiotic, uncaring specimens of manhood. Women do not need to shove themselves into a person's face to get their way. THAT is where feminism is pushing out femininity. MOST women feel that they cannot be a feminist and look feminine, because men treat feminine women differently. It's the way they are.
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Indigo, YOU are an example of this point being proven. You owe Arisztid an apology. Big time.
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by Keysha on August 28th, 2009
"Feminism would have told her that she had to be more "aggressive" and stop perpetuating the girly girl "stereotype." -- THIS is what I have an issue with. It is making the assumption -- very common one, too -- that feminism is about not being feminine. Feminism is about equal opportunities for both men and women. Femininity is a social construct -- it is true that un-feminine women often get looked down upon, and that is a problem, but it doesn't mean a feminine woman can't be a feminist. I am not sure how feminism is about "shoving" yourself into someone's face -- when I, say, am talking to someone about the wage gap in Australia, I am hardly doing that, I am having a discussion. Women do not have much power in the current world, and trying to make it so they have as much power as men isn't about being "unfeminine" (whatever it means to you), it is about making people understand what the problems are and how to change them. I am not sure why I need to apologize for saying that, or
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 28th, 2009
how I am trying to dominate anything by talking about this subject. I mean no disrespect to Arisztid, but it irritates me that everywhere I go, people are going on about how feminists are bitches/harpies, etc, etc, when most of them have hardly met one.
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 28th, 2009
Up until ten to twenty years ago, it was legal in most Western countries for husbands to rape their wives. It wasn't considered rape if she didn't consent. How exactly were women in control then?
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by Halskiisaklink on August 28th, 2009
Indigo, tell me, while it may be an 'assumption', why the average male would not believe it, when most of the women in this country who claim to be feminists dress in a masculine manner, are aggressive, attempt to dominate in order to get 'equality', and, basically, are not just trying for equality, but are trying to emasculate the men?
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Example: I went to a store a while ago, and an older man was ahead of myself and 2 other women, whom I did not know. He reached the door first, so held it for us. One woman flat out refused to go in, looking at him, and stating that she could open her own door, thank you, and did not need some man to do it for her. *I* walked in front of her, went in, thanking him for the courtesy, and stating that I would never dream of being that rude to any person that was nice. The woman glared at me. I asked her, if she came up and *I* held the door, would she go in? And told her to not be a bitch. Her mouth opened, jaw snapped shut, and she shoved past us.
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It may indeed be that feminism is as you say. But too many women treat it differently, and that is what men see. You provide a bad example by taking exception with a common assumption, and making it an issue. Now me, as a feminine woman who is also equal, would have simply said, not all feminists are that way, many simply want equality, not superiority. Instead of shoving into it in an aggressive manner.
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Halskis, I think, if you bothered reading, I said, "unless they are idiotic, uncaring specimens of manhood." What man, who was not that, would hurt anyone weaker than they are? I'm 45 years old. My mother was 42 when she gave birth to me. Don't tell me women did not have any control, I know better. My mother did not wear slacks until she was in her 70's. But I've seen my father bodily throw someone out of the house, onto their face, in the grass, for swearing in front of her, without her saying a word to him about it. Now THAT is control
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by Keysha on August 29th, 2009
Just a suggestion: this sort of thing, if I was like that, would give me a bad opinion of feminists. However, I am not like that and am not going to judge feminists by you. I will learn about feminism on my own without making assumptions based on your attitude towards me.
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You could have been pleasant to me rather than aggressive to me. You chose the hostile way.
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Have a lovely day. Unsubscribed.
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by Arisztid on August 29th, 2009
Because you know most of the feminists in this country, right?
If you actually talk to some feminists, they will tell you someone opening the door for them isn't the biggest of their worries. I consider opening a door for someone quite normal, whether it is someone opening the door for me or me opening the door for them.
Wow, you called someone a bitch, way to go!
How many women do you know who do this? How many men actually know any feminists? They get told that that is the way feminists are, so they say they hate feminists. I have never known any feminists who want superiority, and I doubt you have either.
Whether there are good men is not the issue -- of course there are. I am friends with plenty of them, I have a boyfriend, etc. But if you look around you, you will see that there is still plenty of work to be done -- female rape victims are still blamed for the rape, there are still wage gaps, women have to put up with rape jokes and misogynistic media and culture.
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 29th, 2009
Nor am I sure how I was hostile to you, Arisztid, but if that is how you feel, that's fine with me, it's just too bad that you refused to listen to what I said and took it as a personal insult.
Some feminist sites to check out (as opposed to random women that never even claimed to be feminists):
Tigerbeatdown.com
Jezebel.com
Shakespearessister.blogspot.com
Feministing.com
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 29th, 2009
How many men actually know any feminists? How about how many men know people they are TOLD are feminists? You go by what you see. And what most see are women that are acting like you. Confrontational, arrogant, certain they are right, refusing to admit that anyone else has a valid point, and not seeing any point of view other than their own.
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I don't recall saying, nor do I recall Arisztid saying, that all feminists act a certain way. We go by what we see. No, we do not 'know most of the feminists in this country' as you so rudely put it. What we know, is that the ones we see, that cry equality so very much, act like you. And I have just pointed out how YOU look to US.
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Keep spouting how you say you believe. You act quite differently from what you are saying...
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And actions speak louder than words.
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by Keysha on August 29th, 2009
None of the men I have ever talked to that believed these stereotypes ever knew women that claimed to be feminist or were feminist. Also, if I meet, say, a hippie that dislikes the thought of peace, I'm not going to think they are a hippie.
So anytime someone stands up for their beliefs they are confrontational and arrogant? I often try to see other people's points of view, and I agree with other people's valid points even in arguments -- i just do not see any coming from you. All I see is ignorance.
See the part I quoted above. If someone said, "Well, if I said/did that in front of a woman, she would do this," they are not saying that all women act a certain why, but they are certainly implying it.
So you are saying that you are against anyone wanting equality? Nice.
All the citizens of US who have agreed with me must be lying to me, then. They are secretly aliens.
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 29th, 2009
"Actions speak louder than words" -- so what's worse, your use of the word "bitch," or the fact that you called someone one?
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 29th, 2009
Sometimes I am a bitch, I freely admit it. Especially when I find someone being rude to someone else for no reason. And I STILL say, you could have simply said "not all feminists are that way, many simply want equality, not superiority." and that would have been the end of this, but you had to be confrontational and make Aris's answer into an 'assumption' which you then proceeded to try and kick down his throat.
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"None of the men I have ever talked to that believed these stereotypes ever knew women that claimed to be feminist or were feminist." To paraphrase you... Because you know most of the men in this country, right?
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I'm done arguing with you. Yes, this is an argument, not a discussion. Because you are not seeing what at least 2 other people in this thread see, not because it's not there, but because you are blind to your own faults. Have a good life in your little corner of the world.
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There ARE exceptions to every stereotype, but you are not one.
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by Keysha on August 29th, 2009
I don't recall being rude to Arisztid. I am not sure why you are so offended by the concept of assumptions -- everyone has some, and it's not the end of the world if someone points out yours. I have never met any feminists that wanted superiority, because they don't exist -- if someone wants superiority, then they're not a feminist. Though personally, I've never met any people -- men or women -- who told me they want their gender to take over the world. I still recommend you look into the sites I posted.
No, but it seems the stereotype was made up some generations ago by people who considered feminists scandalous, and got passed on down.
As you wish, though I could say the same thing about you -- for someone who keeps accusing me of not being open minded, you have spent an awful lot of this time telling me how wrong I am.
Oh, I definitely believe that, especially when it comes from someone who has never met me.
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 29th, 2009
Having read your answers and such before, I expected you to be a lot less judgmental and a lot more knowledgeable. Quite sad.
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by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on August 29th, 2009
You seem to have a very romanticised view of gender differences. It must be hard to break through.
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by Halskiisaklink on August 29th, 2009

No actually it makes alot of sense. To me equal rights took a wrong turn the day women stopped being feminine. I like the idea of having different roles but understanding that they are both equally important.
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by weak girl on November 29th, 2008
Fair enough. :D
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by The Music Roob Ninja on November 29th, 2008
As a feminist, I say punch her in the face, if she has done something that you would punch a man for. But no harder than you would a guy her size.
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by milkhoney on November 29th, 2008
Yea, unfortunately, I'd still get in trouble for it. Apart from anything else any guy watching'd probably beat me up for it... :P
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by The Music Roob Ninja on November 29th, 2008
Which I can understand, seeing as usually a man never, EVER needs to hit a woman to ensure his own safety. Most of the time, lesser measures work. Like shaking the crazy out of them.
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by milkhoney on December 2nd, 2008
Haha!
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by The Music Roob Ninja on December 2nd, 2008

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Why did feminism have to kill femininity?

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