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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 25th, 2009
Help answer this question below.
by Dracool on August 26th, 2009
Do you think the Jaredites were black?
by the Otter on January 11th, 2008
| 5 people like this
When did they allow black players play for BYU what year was it....
by ben on September 23rd, 2008
| 1 person likes this
Is it true that you can't "pass" someone that is stuck on the apex of a human situation that you are also looking at?
by pearloaf is not yelling and dreams of bal on March 4th, 2011
| 1 person likes this
"I perceived the world differently as a Mormon. Those who had not lived valiantly in the pre-existence were cursed to be born black, dark or yellow skinned or into Christian, Buddhist, or Muslim homes." ExMormon, Andy Pollard. Thoughts?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 25th, 2009
| 3 people like this
Other than Native Americans and Africans, are there any other ethnic groups that Mormons believe have specific physical features because they were cursed by God?
by crimson208 on May 17th, 2004
| 3 people like this
You're reading "I perceived the world differently as a Mormon. Those who had not lived valiantly in the pre-existence were cursed to be born black, dark or yellow skinned or into Christian, Buddhist, or Muslim homes." ExMormon, Andy Pollard. Thoughts?
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Comments
Excellent question! +6
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From LdS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie:
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"In the pre-existent eternity various degrees of valiance and devotion to the truth were exhibited by different groups of our Father's spirit offspring. One-third of the spirit hosts of heaven came out in open rebellion and were cast out without bodies, becoming the devil and his angels. The other two-thirds stood affirmatively for Christ: there were no neutrals. To stand neutral in the midst of war is a philosophical impossibility.
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Of the two-thirds who followed Christ, however, some were more valiant than others. Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes.
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Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009
The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence. Along with all races and peoples he is receiving here what he merits as a result of the long pre-mortal probation in the presence of the Lord. The principle is the same as will apply when all men are judged according to their mortal works and are awarded varying statuses in the life hereafter.
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-- Horne, Dennis B. (2000). Bruce R. McConkie: Highlights From His Life & Teachings. Eborn Books. ISBN 1-890718-01-7; quoting from his 1958 writings on the ban on Black Priesthood.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009
Well, that's one of the most original reasons for racism I've read. "To stand neutral in the midst of war is a philosophical impossibility." ~ reckon the Quakers are more philosophical than ol' D. Horne and his cronies.
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by Dracool on August 26th, 2009
Note that Horne quoted from the 1958 writings of McConkie (which made their way almost verbatim into the 1966 edition of "Mormon Doctrine") which were edited out of the second edition for being false doctrine.
by laie_techie on August 26th, 2009
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Really?
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Here's the list of edits between editions:
http://www.ldsgospeldoctrine.net/kn/random/mo-doc.txt
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You will note that the passage that Mr. Horne cites were NOT, I repeat NOT, included in the changes to the Second Edition.
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Your point is moot.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009
Whose point is moot?
by Dracool on August 26th, 2009
That document you cite does not list ALL the changes and omissions between the first and second editions of "Mormon Doctrine", nor does it enumerate all "some 1067" doctrinal errors.
by laie_techie on August 26th, 2009
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>Whose point is moot?<
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Laie is using the classic LdS Apologetic against "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce McConkie and it's bunk (as usual).
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009
>That document you cite does not list ALL the changes and omissions between the first and second editions of "Mormon Doctrine", nor does it enumerate all "some 1067" doctrinal errors<
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Hair splitting and you know it.
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Laie, give it up. This doctrine - be it official or NOT is so deeply embedded within LdS Culture that it will take generations to flush out. I was using McConkie as an authoritative reference point nothing more. However, reality is reality.
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I know that you don't get confronted with it by White Mormons due to your "Lamanite" lineage but, trust me, in private it's held to and discussed.
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I have HEARD it personally AND ExMormons have admitted this publicly.
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Bruce McConkie was, as he always did SO well, just stating the facts and letting the chips fall where they will. However, in the end it's really irrelevant.
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It's reality whether you and your Lamanite brethren like it or not.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009
Are there any black Mormons?
by Friendo on August 27th, 2009
I think so, Friendo. But are there any black bishops in LDS?
by Dracool on August 27th, 2009
>Are there any black Mormons?<
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Yes, several in fact. In fact, it's pretty hard to find a non-Black Bishop in Africa.
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Here's are some good links for you:
http://www.blacklds.org/
http://www.blacklds.org/videos
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In fact, Black Mormons are now having such a positive impact on the LdS Church that most Mormons are scratching their head and wondering why they didn't nuke the ban long ago!
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I have many Mormon Heroes and in Darius Gray in in the top 10 - maybe the top 5. Here's my all-time favorite Darius Gray presentation - it's stellar!
http://mormonstories.org/?p=95
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Darius Gray is more assuredly one of the greatest Mormons of our time.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 27th, 2009
Interesting. But these two comments on that link express my thoughts better than I could:
Did not the 1978 ‘revelation’ come oh so coincidentally close to a ruling of the Supreme Court concerning the Elk’s Clubs’ tax exemption? My father recalls that it was no secret and even major media widely reporting such coincidence. Why didn’t you raise this point in your interview with Darius Gray and Margaret Young?
Isn’t it plain as day that the mormon church made a political/economic decision rather than anything resembling principle or spiritual?
“Superstition, idolatry, and hypocrisy have ample wages, but truth goes a-begging.”
Table Talk — Martin Luther
by Dracool on August 27th, 2009
I definitely believe that the church, and thus “revelation”, are directly tied to worldly/global events…so you’re preaching to the choir here.
Also, Darius and Margaret are quite savvy….they understand the issues and history much, much better than we do.
My point for this podcast wasn’t to grill them as much as to let them tell their story/position/viewpoint…..and I also know that Margaret and Darius have worked *very* hard to retain some “credibility” with church leaders….so I had no desire to “embarass” them or put them on the spot. They’re good people doing good work….and I would only want to support their efforts to make positive/productive change from within (something guys like me don’t have much of a chance at doing).
I’m sure that Darius and Margaret both would openly and happily concede that global/worldly pressure impacts church policy and “revelation”–sometime negatively, and sometimes positively.
I think it could easily be argued that the pressure on David O. McKay in the 60s actually PROLONGED the lifting of the ban….so as to ensure that the brethren would not look like they were caving to pressure (read David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism for more on this).
Anyway…my 2 cents.
by Dracool on August 27th, 2009
>Why didn’t you raise this point in your interview with Darius Gray and Margaret Young?<
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You can hardly expect Darius Gray and Margaret Young to take that stance given their stalwart devotion to the LdS Church. However for LdS they're well above average.
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> Isn’t it plain as day that the mormon church made a political/economic decision rather than anything resembling principle or spiritual? <
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It is to Mormon Critics like you and I. However Mormon Stalwarts are blind - no, let me be more precise in my language - CHOOSE to be blind to the evidence.
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> I think it could easily be argued that the pressure on David O. McKay in the 60s actually PROLONGED the lifting of the ban….so as to ensure that the brethren would not look like they were caving to pressure <
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Your insights are astute and to the point. I agree 100%.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 27th, 2009
The individual Mormon people I've met (in real life, NOT on AB)have been good people who didn't try to recruit me, and one especially, was very good to my family in a time of need. I am suspicious of any organized religion, LDS among them, but not, usually, of the everyday followers who are just trying to get by like most of us. The Mormons I've personally known seem better educated than most religious people.
by Dracool on August 27th, 2009
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Again, no disagreement. The Mormon people are great and I love 'em!
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I have many family members and friends who are Mormons and they are dear to me.
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However the LdS Church, LdS Theology and MormonISM as a belief system . . . not so much.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 27th, 2009
In the Mormon Church, Negroes are allowed to hold the priesthood. So I do not know what you are talking about.
by jasminelockerby on January 1st, 2010