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by Joseph Smith was a fraud and Eisegete on February 9th, 2009
Help answer this question below.
by Glenn Blaylock on February 14th, 2009
I would ask, where is the source that states that Joseph Smith said this? If you are speaking of his last words, the only record of those of which I am aware is from John Taylor's account as given in his eulogy (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/135). According to him, Joseph's last words were, "O Lord my God!". That is all. So, upon what basis do you claim that he said the above?
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You're reading He cried... Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son? Why would anyone in the Mormon church say such a thing?
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Comments
Please use the links that I've provided. Reed C. Durham addressed this in his speech for example. In addition, this point has been acknowledged by Mormon Historians of every ilk and is no longer considered an issue.
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This has been the case for year.
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"The truth is out there" Just use the links.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 14th, 2009
Ok, I have read the relevant portion of the Durham speech. It is really nothing more than speculation. It acknowledges that Joseph Smith did not, in fact, yell out, "Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son?" Rather, it states that all he said was, "Oh Lord, My God." He then speculates that Joseph intended to continue with the Masonic distress call. This is just speculation on his part and on the part of anyone else who asserts that this was Joseph's intention as Joseph was shot dead prior to completing whatever it was that he was saying if indeed he did have more to say at that point. In any event, there is no assertion that Joseph actually called out the entire phrase indicated in the question. So, once again, I ask. where is the record of Joseph Smith actually saying that at the time of his death?
by Glenn Blaylock on February 15th, 2009
Part, whole what difference doe it make? Are you going to deny that Joseph Smith was a Master Mason (as was his Father, and Hyrum his brother)? Are you going to try to deny the strong linkage between Mormonism and Masonry? Are you going to try to deny that there were Masons in the mob that assassinated Smith?
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If so, I don't understand WHY you would since Mormon and non-Mormon Historians don't dispute this - there is consensus on this.
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So I'm genuinely puzzled by your assertion.
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However, if you want to deny it for your own reasons - that's your choice. However the consensus of Mormon History Scholars isn't with you on this one.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 15th, 2009
No, I am not arguing that Joseph Smith was not a mason. What I am saying is that the assertion that he said, "Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son?" is false. He did not say that. Maybe he was going to say that. Maybe he wasn't. Since he was shot right after saying, "Oh Lord, My God," no one can say with any certainty what he was going to say, if anything, after that. Have you ever tried to complete someone else's sentence, thinking that you knew what they were going to say, only to be proven wrong? How can you be certain that you are not with this instance? This is to what I am objecting. Lola, asserted, "He cried... Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son?" We are all assuming that she was referencing Joseph Smith at the time of his death, though she never says who "He" is nor under what circumstances "he" cried this. If, in fact, this is a reference to Joseph Smith, then it is historically inaccurate, because he did not say this.
by Glenn Blaylock on February 15th, 2009
his is how rumors get started and eventually accepted as facts. People assert something that isn't true and no one steps forward to correct the record. So, people assume that the assertion is true. In this case, the assertion upon which this question is based is not true (assuming we are all correct about the person and situation to which it refers). Any assertions that Joseph Smith did intend to give that whole phrase is pure speculation on the part of the person asserting it. As such, it should not be stated as a certainty. It should be made clear that this is the opinion of the person making the statement.
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What I am arguing against here is the intellectual laziness that leads to unsubstantiated speculation being accepted as fact. There is too much of this in many different sectors of society. It is such laziness that allows people to present history however they want to rather than how it really happened.
by Glenn Blaylock on February 15th, 2009
All very good points Glenn. I've never felt the need until now but I will now look for a secondary, validating first hand testimony.
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One can (and should) only coast along on the expert opinion of others until you have the time and resources to pursue it on your own - or you are indeed a lazy scholar!
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SUMMARY: Good thought provoking response - you got me off my lazy keetser on this historical pont! Let me see what I can find.
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;-)
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 15th, 2009