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Comments
If prostitution was legal std's would be monitored and controlled. thats the way it works in places where it is legal.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 1st, 2007
Except that even where it is legal and regulated, there are still street walkers who ignore those regulations.
by Anonymous on August 1st, 2007
well, that would be up to the patron to only buy services from liscenced prostitutes. It would still be up to the individual to think and be responsible for himself...no law is gonna change that! LOL!
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 2nd, 2007
This is why it should remain illegal. Prostitution spreads disease, which has costs that fall on society as a whole. If these costs did not exist, I would have no problem with legalized prostitution. Furthermore, even regulated prostitution spreads disease. Sure, they are tested, but usually only once a month. That leaves several weeks for diseases to be spread. In the case of HIV it can take up to 6 months to be diagnosed.
by Anonymous on August 2nd, 2007
std's are part of our world unfortunatley..prostitution is far from the only source of them. thats why we are each responsible for protecting ourselves..because yes, you are correct..it can take up to 6 months for the body to seroconvert and produce antibodies for hiv (research has actually shown 3 months is the most common however) if it remains illegal there are no regulations in place...i have the same argument for needle exchange programs...sure...people will still be exposed to disease through unsafe injection practices...but why not give people the option to be safe about it. It seems foolish to me to shoot down the option to be informed and safer about something that people will do regardless of whether it is legal or not.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 2nd, 2007
First off, needle exchange programs do not legalize the drug use. Thus, when you balance the pro's and con's, the exchange programs do little to increase users and much to decrease the danger, and therefore makes some sense. As for prostitution, if we legalize it, more people will engage in the activity. Thus, people who had a 0% chance of getting a disease from a prostitute now have a real chance. Yes, there will always be prostitutes and people who hire prostitutes. But there will be a lot fewer of both if the activity remains illegal.
by Anonymous on August 2nd, 2007
i realize that needlexchange has nothing to do with legalizing drugs. you do know that carrying a certain amount of needles is a felony in some places? I myself have spent time in jail for distribution of needles and i worked a program that made needlexchange legal in certain areas of sf...my point was harm reduction. reducing harm. the argument that if it were legal there would be more patrons makes about as much sense as the argument i heard time and time again that needlexchange would increase drug use. If it were legal people would have choices..they would have the choice to make safer decisions.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 2nd, 2007
www.harmreduction.org
www.drugpolicy.org
are you the same anonymous i had the sex offender convo with?
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 2nd, 2007
Needle exchanges probably do increase drug use, but the increase is so small that it is practically irrelavent. Thus, the increase in safety outweighs any increase in use. And having needles is not a crime in nearly every jurisdiction in America. It is illegal to have drug paraphanelia, which includes needles, but to be convicted it must be shown that the needled were to be used for illicit drugs.
by Anonymous on August 2nd, 2007
...continued from previous post. Your arguments fallacy is that it does not weigh the pro's and con's. Legalized prostitution will increase the number of prostitutes and people who use them. Since regulating prostitutes won't eliminate the spread of disease, the net effect will be an increase in the spread of disease. Even in counties were brothels are legal, there are still street walkers who undercut the brothels, and there are even more customers who can't afford the brothel, but can afford the street hooker.
by Anonymous on August 2nd, 2007
i never said that regulating prostitutes would eliminate the spread of disease!
when i said needles were illegal, i meant paraphanelia..im pretty sure you got that.
im done arguing this subject...your argument that legalizing it would increase activity is not one i agree with.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 2nd, 2007
But why don't you agree with it? We know that legalizing prostitution won't make current prostitutes quit the profession. We can also logically assume that at least one person who wants to be a prostitute but is not ne because it is illegal will start because it is now legal. The same is true for customers. Current prostitution customers will remain, and some people who currently don't hire prostitutes becasue it is illegal will once it is legal.
by Anonymous on August 2nd, 2007
...continued from previous post. Look at prohibition. We made alcohol illegal and saw a decrease in use. We legalize it again, and we saw a rapid increase in use. The fact is that most people follow the law even if they don't agree with it. So legalization of ANY activty will increase that activity.
by Anonymous on August 2nd, 2007
Although it is fair to note that with the prohibition came riots, discontent, and a rise in crime. And it is because of that that the 18th Amendment was repealed.
by Black Knight on August 2nd, 2007
Irrelevant, but true. Prostitution is already illegal and we don't have riots. Besides, anytime you prohibit anything there will be an increase in crime, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be prohibited.
by Anonymous on August 3rd, 2007
On a side note, it's legal in some parts of Nevada. And I agree with you that legalization will increase activity.
My point from that is that simply because there is an increase in general activity, it can be overall positive. (Which is why they repealed the 18th.) Legalizing prostitution applies safer procedures and takes people off the streets into a safer, more controlled environment. This has been implemented in places like the U.K. in order to regulate prostitution to help prevent the spread of STDs. While it won't make prostitutes quit, it will help a few clean up.
by Black Knight on August 3rd, 2007
Prostitution is also legal in Rhode Island. However, the balancing still favors prohibition. If we legalized, but regulated prostitution, those regulations will create costs to the profession. Many current prostitutes wouldn't be able to afford to pay for the licensing requirements and others wouldn't even qualify. In fact, in the counties where it is legal in Nevada, they still have massive illegal prostitution.
by Anonymous on August 3rd, 2007
just a quick comment on the statement that needlexchange increases drug use..not the case, sorry. It has actually been shown that it decreases use due to supportive programs connected with the exchange programs..i have spent years getting people off dope and alot of the time the first link to the resource to do so begins with the needlexchange program. in my opinion your argument that it COULD increase activity is irrelevant. i think its a poor argument..making it legal would make it safer. if people choose not to follow the guidlines and continue to do it illegally..well, as you point out..its done already..making it legal gives people a choice! thats the basis for my entire arument..i want people to have the choice to be safer.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 3rd, 2007
Just to sweep up, I'll point out that I actually don't support legalizing prostitution, although I don't strongly oppose it either. In terms of the needle exchange, I strongly support it. I don't want to restate everything, so let it suffice to say that I agree with Chanel in all points of his last comment about needle exchange, which definitively lowers STD spreading.
by Black Knight on August 3rd, 2007
Chanel: As you point out, it is not the needle exchange programs that decrease use, it is the support programs that often accompany them. Again, I don't think many people are going to decide to start using drugs just because they can get clean needles, but some people (In fact, I know one person who did) who were persuaded not to use by fear of disease or because they lacked a needle will use as a result of the exchange program. This is not to say that we should not have the programs because a few extra people will use drugs. The balance between the increased use and the decreased spread of disease greatly favors teh programs. But it is intellectualy dishonest to say that the exchange programs will cause a person to stop using.
by Anonymous on August 3rd, 2007
I don't know, it's really a matter of tradeoffs. What's worse, 20 people with STDs doing drugs and potentially spreading their dieases, or 30 people without STDs doing drugs?
EDIT: Nevermind, I see you agree, I reread the last part of the comment. However, I disagree on the last point. Once someone starts using the exchange program, they've made a decision to become safer and to get help doing so. This is the beginning connection that may well eventually lead into stopping altogether.
by Black Knight on August 3rd, 2007
In terms of prostitution, legalizing WILL (not could) increase activity. Every prohibition that has even been lifted has resulted in a increase in the previously prohibited activity. The reason for this is that many people disagree with laws, but they follow them because it is the law. Do you have any evidence to support the proposition that legalizing prostitution will cause a decrease is prostitutes or customers?
by Anonymous on August 3rd, 2007
There is evidence that legalizing prostitution, while not decreasing activity, will increase the overall safety of prostitution. (For instance, see the UK.)
I'm really being the devil's advocate here, since I'm not a supporter of legalizing prostitution.
by Black Knight on August 3rd, 2007
Except that the evidence ignores the continued illegal prostitution. Yes, those that go to a licensed hooker will be safer than those that go to a street hooker. However, they are not much safer becasue disease is only tested for sporadically, and diseases like HIV can take up to 6 months to be diagnosed.
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Also, becoming a licensed hooker takes money and usually requires you to work in a licensed establishment. How many drug addicted hookers who work the streets for their next fix will have the money to become licensed? And even if they did, how many of them would actually be hired?
by Anonymous on August 3rd, 2007
back to my original point..you keep bring up hiv infested, drug addicted street walkers...legalizing prostitution would give the consumer the CHOICE to make a safer decision. plain and simple...I'm advocating safer choices. If a consumer wants to patronize a prostitute who is not liscensed, well...thats his own foolish choice...of course, it would be much preferred if men did not patronize prositutes...but thats just not the way the world works..and I never said an exchange will cause a person to stop using drugs..i said that exchange programs give many people support and services in a non-judgemental enviorment...often the first step to thinking about quitting.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 6th, 2007
Except that "regulations" cost money. Where does that money come from? By passing the cost on to consumers. The cost of services at a licensed brothel in Nevada is 20 to 50 times more than the cost of the same services on the street. If most consumers can't afford to go to a licensed establishment, can you really call it a "choice" when they choose not to?
by Anonymous on August 6th, 2007
the licensing fee for a gal to become a prositute is 100 bucks..as far as the cost for consumers? well, you get what you pay for...if someone cant afford to patronize a legal, regulated prostitute...well, then maybe they shouldn't be buying sex! And yes, I still think that is a choice.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 7th, 2007
Which brings us full circle to why prostitution is illegal. That is, it creates detrimental costs for society. Based on your logic we should eliminate speed limits as well. If you choose to drive fast and kill yourself, that is your CHOICE. However, that choice still creates tremendous costs on society.
by Anonymous on August 7th, 2007
well, thats a good point. may i point out that the only issue we have covered on the subject of prostitution have been std's? far from the only issue...i still stand my my opinion that i feel prostitution would be safer if made legal...for many reasons..I feel that you have brought up many well informed good points..and i have enjoyed this discussion..its remained respectful and informed throughout...but, my opinion has stayed the same! CHOICE
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 7th, 2007
That is because STD's is the primary reason that prostitution is illegal. Even if we give people the choice to hire a licensed prostitute, this only justifies legalizing prostitution if the result is a decrease in the transmission of STD's. However, we know that legalizing prostitution will increase the number of prostitutes and customers, which will increase the incidents of STD's. We have no indication that illegal prostitutes will discontinue working. Choice or not, the net result is an increase in STD's.
by Anonymous on August 7th, 2007
what about the crime and violence that goes along with illegal prostitution? Regulating the profession would help to control that. And you do know that prostitutes are very well learned on the subject of protection(ie. condoms)as a matter of fact..the general poulation could learn a thing or two from prostitutes about std protection. take a look at transmission rates of chlamydia/gon. amongst the general population aged 18-25...the numbers have gone through the roof in the last 5 years...compare that to infection rates of prostitutes in legalized settings. you might find yourself shocked.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 8th, 2007
http://www.amazon.com/Brothel-Mustang-Ranch-Its-Women/dp/0449006581
heres a book that addresses this very subject...std transmission. written by a woman researching the subject for university of california. Check it out...you may find it very interesting.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 8th, 2007
I certainly agree that the crime and violence associated with prostitution would go down if all prostitutes got licensed and worked in a licensed brothel, but most street prostitutes would remain street prostitutes even if it was legal but regulated. Also, many women turn to prostitution as a result of their drug addictions. Thus, prostitution is often the effect (not the cause) of other illegal activity.
by Anonymous on August 8th, 2007
I also agree that prostitutes often use protection (well, it costs extra is you don't want to use a condom), but you have to balance that against the increased risk caused by the multitude of partners. Your argument makes perfect sense if you assume that legalized prostitution would result in street prostitutes becoming licensed prostitutes. However, we know this is not the case by looking at those countries (and states) that have legalized prostitution. We know that most street prostitutes will remain stree prostitues, but we will also get a new breed of legal prostitutes. Thus, the net result is simply an increase in high risk activity.
by Anonymous on August 8th, 2007
I have never argued that street prostitutes would still remain..and still pose a risk (although in my expirience working with prostitutes the highest risk group for std's were males serving males)same old argument coming from me, im not assuming anything..the licensed prostitute would give the patron more choice. You dont think taking away the stigma associated with an illegal activity would bring the activity into the open thus making people a little more informed on risks associated? although, its beyond and past me how a person could NOT know sex with a street prostitute would be beyond risky.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 9th, 2007
People know the risks of street prostitution, but they just don't care.
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"I have never argued that street prostitutes would still remain..."
*
I know. You are arguing that they will switch to licensed prostitution, right? The problem is that in other countries (and in certain counties in Nevada) where prostitution was legalized, most licensed prostitutes were new prostitutes and there was a significant increase in prostitution.
by Anonymous on August 10th, 2007
For example, after the legalization of prostitution in the Netherlands there was a 25% increase in prostitution, which now makes up 5% of their economy. However, most of the increase came in the form of unlicensed prostitutes. Why was this the case? Because the legalization of prostitution created great demand, but most women didn't want the stigma that goes along with being a prostitute. Being licensed meant there was a public record of your behavior.
by Anonymous on August 10th, 2007
no, im not arguing that they would switch! Im arguing that people would have safer choices! I keep saying that over and over. You seem to be turning a blind eye to the fact that prostitution is something thats happening right now..keeping it illegal isnt changing that, now is it? legalization would give a person the option to make a safer choice. people would have the option to make safe, informed decisions. There is nothing i can say about the person that makes the foolish choice to patronize the street prostitute..thats the result of the lack of good information..and lack of common sense.Im glad you mention the word stigma..where do you think that stigma comes from?
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 13th, 2007
keeping prostitution illegal and underground attaches a huge stigma to it...the shame attched to a stigma is what makes people make foolish choices that jepordize their health..and before you jump on this statement and tell me that im saying that legalizing prostitution will make it an acceptable profession..well, thats not what im saying..its not that cut and dried. It does,however, give people the choice to make an informed desicion.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 13th, 2007
Yes, you keep saying the legalization will give choices, but you don't address the reason why prostitution is illegal in the first place. Prostitution is illegal because it increases the spread of disease, which provides a financial amd health detriment to society (not just the prostitutes and customers). Furthermore, you acknowledge that legalization won't result in street prostitutes switching to legal prostituion, which means the net result is more people becoming or hiring prostitutes.
by Anonymous on August 13th, 2007
As for the stigma, America is primarily a country with Christian values. Thus, much of the stigma has to do with religious beliefs. The stigma also comes from the perception that women who have many partners are at a high risk of having an STD. That perception won't change just because prostitution is legal. For example, many men who hire prostitutes would never date or marry someone who is/was a prostitute. Have you ever noticed that women (i.e. non-prostitutes) who have had many partners tend to lie about how many people they have been with? The reason for this is the stigma comes from the numerous partners, regardless if you are a prostitute or not.
by Anonymous on August 13th, 2007
you remind me of the people who support absitnence based programs. we all know how well those work. its already there...its already happening..why not make it safer and inform people of their choices regarding their saftey. And you are right about where the stigma comes from..of course it only seems to apply to women..men with multiple partners are looked at in a different light..and im sorry..i cannot support that way of seeing things. i support information, choice and safety.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 14th, 2007
Your analogy to abstinence makes no sense. The analogy is: despite the fact that we promote abstinence, many kids still have sex. Therefore, we should just encourage kids to have sex. I agree that we should promote abstinence but still teach safe sex. But even though abstinence education does not stop many kids from having sex, it does stop some. You acknowledge that illegal (i.e. unsafe) prostitution will still exist if we legalize prostitution, so the only thing legalization would do is encourage more people to engage in the high risk behaviour.
by Anonymous on August 14th, 2007
no, we should encourage kids to make safe, informed decisions. who said anything about encouraging kids to have sex? you are not getting where im coming from AT ALL.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 14th, 2007
transmission rates of hiv and std's are highest amonst college age women and gay men.take a look at the numbers. clearly..there is a problem here..why are transmission rates so high? because people want to pretend it wont happen to them..ignorance..lack of information. i would love to see that change..i would love to see the people of my country more informaed on things that they have all the control over. people engage in high risk behaviour because they are not informed..this is where the problem lies..with the individual...not the prositute.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 14th, 2007
these things will never be changed overnight...but my belief is that legalization would put us on that path.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 14th, 2007
but of course, prostitution is a small drop in a very big bucket. i also support legalization of certain drugs...making them controlled substances instead of street drugs...much like is done in europe and british colombia.
by APACHEmeansENEMY on August 14th, 2007
I get where you are coming from, I am just pointing the fallacy in your argument. That is, you point out the benefit of legalizing prostitution while ignoring the new, larger, detriment that would be caused by the very same legalization. Yes, legalizing prostitution will allow some people to go to a safer prostitute, but at the expense of an overall increase in high risk sexual activity, with virtually no decrease in the current level of high risk activity.
by Anonymous on August 14th, 2007