Atheists believe GOD isn't real because He is not tangible nor measurable YET believe in other things like dreams. Since dreams cannot be proven, why disbelief in the reality of GOD (and the evidence)? Why not have an atheist view on dreams being fake?

Comments

• ""Theoretically an atheist can still believe in the tooth fairy is he wants - so long as he doesn't believe in the tooth fairy as a god.""...point well taking. this is the hypocrisy of atheism.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 18th, 2008

• What hypocrisy? Atheism is a disbelief in god. Full stop. It isn't anything else. The last I heard the Tooth Fairy isn't a god, but if I am mistaken on then point I would need to take that back.
  
  But - I don't know of any atheists who actually do believe in the tooth fairy.

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  by 23Skidoo on July 19th, 2008

• You are so desperate to find some hidden flaw, some inconsistency in atheism that will make everyone say, "By George I think he's got it! Why haven't we seen it all along?"
  -
  But I've got news. There isn't any. Atheism is one single thing (stated clearly above) nothing else. There is no hidden agenda. Why not turn your prodigious intellect onto the Bible? There are so many contradictions, hypocrisies, and whatnot it should make you happy for years.

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  by 23Skidoo on July 19th, 2008

• He's a funny one, isn't he?
  
  Or she.

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  by Jiggy Kaiser on July 30th, 2008

• I can never decide if he's for real or not. :-)

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  by 23Skidoo on July 30th, 2008

• 23Skidoo: Could not dream of anyone putting it better than that+pts

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  by Retrovampire on August 2nd, 2008

• Thanks Retro

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  by 23Skidoo on August 2nd, 2008

• Skid: here's a perfect example of a Christian argument: "Atheists believe god isn't real. Atheists believe in dreams. Dreams can't be proven. Therefore, god exists!"

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  by Mephistopheles on October 7th, 2008

• No it is the premise or logical path that Atheist claim discredits God's existence. If it cannot be proven it must not be real or true. A dream may or may not be proven, I do not know, but if a dream cannot be proven, by Atheist logic it must not exist or be possible. If you believe in the tooth fairy you would be guilty of the same faith based as Christians are accused of or any religion for that matter. It is the logic or path of reason that an Atheist takes that leads to the contradiction, unless of course he does not subscribe to things such as tooth fairies and the like and remains consistent.

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  by no_one_special on October 7th, 2008

• Noone - How could something so simple be so elusive for you? There is nothing accurate about "If it cannot be proven it must not be real or true." That is close to a common creationist argument against evolution, though.
  .
  To clarify:
  Anything COULD be true. There COULD be pink and purple cabbage people mooning behind my back who magically vanish whenever I look in a mirror or turn around. But I really doubt it. And since there is zero evidence suggesting they might be there, I choose to dismiss the notion along with the infinite number of other POSSIBLE ones. God, despite his popularity, falls into this group. The ZERO EVIDENCE group.
  .
  Most things, maybe even every thing cannot be proven. I can't prove the computer I'm typing on exists, but there is a bunch of evidence that supports the notion that it really does exists. So, unless more evidence comes along to falsify the theory, I'll go with it.
  .
  Very, very simple.

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  by 23Skidoo on October 8th, 2008

• my evidence for dreams existing is that you dream of a day where we all see the light and praise you for being right all along. buddy your a dreamer.

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  by omega divine on October 8th, 2008

• @23. I understand what you are saying. I should have clarified, not all Atheist believe the same way. My comment should have been directed to the one how subscribe to the path of logic described in the above comment.
  
  @omega. I am not looking for praise. Perhaps that is your dream. Whatever the case, wake up.

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  by no_one_special on October 8th, 2008

• Surprise, surprise..I`m going to have to disagree with you there "noone". "Anon`One"said "Atheists believe GOD isn't real because he is not tangible nor measurable". This is not then aimed at subscribers of logic, but at subscribers to the notion that all things that exist in the real world are physical. Any sensible atheist would be likely to say that dreams exist, but only in their heads and not in the real world, pretty much the same as gods really.

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  by Retrovampire on October 9th, 2008

• @noonespecial..
  
  you seek praise in something. its fine if you dont want to say what, but you do. telling we to wake up implies that you believe a dream to exist.. i should have you know that my statement wasnt directed at you it was directed at the author of this thread.
  atheism is the disbelief in supreme beings.. fairies are not supreme beings.. i think.. not sure.. i dont believe in supreme beings because i believe that one day evidence will discredit it.. atheist have the power to believe.. just not in a supreme being..
  no one is perfect..
  and no one is innocent..
  you lie cheat and steal..
  ganja please?!?!?! you must have been out your mind..

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  by omega divine on October 9th, 2008

• @retro. Some atheist I would think would follow different paths of logic. I have encountered a few different takes from atheist. I guess to each his own. Many theist have different views as well.
  
  @omega. Sorry it looked like it was directed to me. So my response was sparked by that. I do believe people have dreams not that they have special significance. And who is ganja? Or now directing that comment to me?

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  by no_one_special on October 9th, 2008

• @noone my last piece was just some randomness..
  
  
  
  
  like religion.

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  by omega divine on October 9th, 2008

• UH OK....

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  by no_one_special on October 9th, 2008

• random right?

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  by omega divine on October 9th, 2008

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• prove to me you had a dream lat night. present the evidence and i will submit to your argument.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• Obviously I cannot do that. If I had been hooked up to an EEG, however, it would be completely provable.
   
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreams#Neurology_of_sleep_and_dreams

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  by Penal Colony is wicked marrying Andy on July 7th, 2008

• yes, you would be able prove that I had rapid eye movement at a specific stage during my sleep. But you still cannot prove i dreamed what i dreamed. For example, if you dreamed that you were on a island on the beach, no EEG can prove that. so dreams are unproven.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• I've been reading your comments here, and I have determined there is no point in continuing this argument with you.
  You are clearly only going to be satisfied when someone tells you exactly what you want to hear, and your question presupposes the conclusion that you've already made for yourself.
  Why ask a question if you are unwilling to listen to the answers?
   
  Unsub.

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  by Penal Colony is wicked marrying Andy on July 7th, 2008

• you didn't answer the question but i understand your frustration. Unsub.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• "For example, if you dreamed that you were on a island on the beach, no EEG can prove that." you say dream of an island then say dreams dont exist.hmmm... ever taken hallucinogens? day time dream, or nightmare. 3rd eye???? any of this hit your radar??? borderline ughh.....

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  by omega divine on July 9th, 2008

• i said dreams cannot be proven. i didnt say dream don't exist.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

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• Since when do atheists simply follow the majority of opinions instead of the facts? I thought atheist pride themselves on logic and science? There is a HUGE population that have certainty GOD is real. why are you not following that consensus? consensus means nothing with regards to this issue. lets look at it logically:
  now if an atheist claims GOD is unproven and therefore doesn't believe in GOD YET believe in dreams which is also unproven, it says more about their hypocritical aspect of judgment and the subjective application of evidence. you cannot apply one argument to GOD and ignore that same argument for other things that fall under that category. Yet this is what atheist love to do.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• I understand that just because many people say something is true doesn't necessarily mean it is, but if virtually every sane person on this planet believes it, then it is reasonable to believe it is true. If someone was to assert that dreams don't exist, they would need a mountain of hard evidence to even be heard out. I wouldn't call this "huge consensus" you speak of to be absolutely certain of the existence of god.

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  by Aristocles on July 7th, 2008

• well if i was to accept that illogical argument, certain things are true only when everyone agree upon it. as a matter of fact, everyone at one point believe the earth was flat, look (with their own eyes) and saw a flat earth. So according to your twisted logic, that means the earth was INDEED flat since at the point in time "virtually every sane person on this planet believes it".
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  and this is the same logic you use to deny GOD?

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• Point taken. Again to answer your last question first, this logic wasn't used to deny god's existence, it was used to prove that dreams exist. You make a good point with the flat earth analogy. I do not know if it helps my case, but it should be noted that, to the best of my knowledge, dreams have a part of the human consciousness forever. In other words, not only could you ask every person on the planet about dreams' existence, you could also consult humans of centuries past, through ancient texts at least, including the Bible. Perhaps I have an error in my logic, I'll try to think of a better explanation.

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  by Aristocles on July 9th, 2008

• Okay, now I have it. I used a hypothetical survey to find out if dreams exist, and you essentially countered that a survey could have been done centuries ago regarding the belief in the flatness of the earth. The people in the latter situation were reasoning based upon their own intuition, and they were later proved wrong. In the former situation, however, asking people about their experiences with dreams' existence is the only way to find out the answer (assuming we ignore the machines mentioned by most other users for this answer)...

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  by Aristocles on July 9th, 2008

• (continued) In this case, we have the people's direct experience, evidence within their heads. They're not basing their ideas upon logic, they're accessing their memories, finding dreams that they likely recently experienced. So, to sum it up, to prove dreams exist we must go to the source: humans, which is who I "polled." A unanimious "YES, dreams exist" results. I don't know that if ancient peoples could be expected to claim to be absolutely certain that the earth was flat.

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  by Aristocles on July 9th, 2008

• how in the hell you guys make this stuff up.."dreams have a part of the human consciousness forever"..where is you proof?! you have none. you are just making so crazy assumption on nothing tangible. you said "to prove dreams exist we must go to the source"...are you serious? well then i will say "to prove GOD is true we go to the source, humans"...surely this can be you logic. where did scientific evidence go, is that no longer suitable to prove things anymore?
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  look man, you cannot prove dream are real. you simply cannot. in plain simple words, if you had a dream that you saw a big huge alien eating people alive, you cannot in any way today prove you did. it is that simple. YET you believe dreams are real although you cannot present any evidenec for it.
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  well i say you are a hypocrite because you accept something that cannot be proven YET reject anything the proves GOD.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• Moving on, I have another subject. Here on Answerbag you reject everyone's logic and reasoning, as well as everyone's facts (ie, Internet links and mentionings of books and whatnot) while everyone here (from what I've seen) rejects your own as nonsense. I disregard the discussions of science and DNA to any significant extent because I am not as knowledgeable as some, so to be fair I can't comment much there. I and others have exhaustively tried to show you the errors of your ways in your reasoning, yet you hold firm. What do you think of that? Do you see yourself as the lone voice of reason among the confused?

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  by Aristocles on July 9th, 2008

• NO, i see myself as a person being attack for simply questoin because atheist hate for people to ask question about their belief. look at my points for this questions. look at the point for all my questions. dont you see the bias? do me a favor and read the comments. count the number of names i have bee call. yet see if i call anyone names. this is how atheist behave, as soon as you ask one simple question about their beliefs they attack you.
  -

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• 1) You're being attacked not for "simply asking questions" but because those Q's are fundamentally flawed. 2) Just because you have low points doesn't mean everyone is biased. You dwell in the atheist section so you should expect some friction. Go to some of the Christianity sections and you can see it too is filled with the "Praise Jesus" crowd. ...

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  by Aristocles on July 9th, 2008

• (continued) 3) I personally enjoy debate and discussion especially about logic and religion, and as I've said before you need to slow down and question your thoughts and logic. I see serious flaws in them. I'm not attacking you, as you may already understand, but I think you are the one who's very biased. 4) I haven't seen much name-calling, and I've seen many of your posts in the atheist section. Your arguments are frequently attacked and for good reason.

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  by Aristocles on July 9th, 2008

Comments

• WE? who is we? YOU see them not me. So please prove to me that i see your dream.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• I have no need to prove to you that I dream. All I need to do is ask you if you dream, if you say no then you are obviously lieing as it is scientifically proven that we all dream.

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  by slothmister on July 7th, 2008

• we all have dreams? seriously? we if i had a dream, please prove it to me. seriously, if you can prove i had a dream last night, please do.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• Now you are just being silly. You know there is no way I can prove you had a dream last night. BUT if you were serious about it then you could go to a specialist hospital and the doctors could prove you had a dream while monitoring you.
  But ofc, you are just being pedantic so would not even bother excepting that as FACT.
  I bet you disbelieve in evolution too.

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  by slothmister on July 7th, 2008

• they can prove i had brain activity but cannot prove i saw anything. and dreams are by definition - sequence of mental images during sleep. for example, let say you had a dream that you were marry to a famous person and they gave you mind powers. how can a neurologist prove that as true? that you witness what your witness in your sleep? he or she cannot. yet you believe is as true although technically it cannot be proven.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• Just because we can not prove WHAT you dream does not mean we can prove THAT you dream.

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  by slothmister on July 7th, 2008

• Well, to use your argument.... just because we can not prove WHAT GOD is does not mean we can't prove THAT He is.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• Yes it does. If you insist that god exists and that his existence is a provable fact, the burden of proof is on you.

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  by Penal Colony is wicked marrying Andy on July 7th, 2008

• Exactly. You claim god exists yet we have ZERO evidence for him. We claim dreams exist, we have all dreamt, we have measurable things that show clearly when we are dreaming. That is the difference.

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  by slothmister on July 7th, 2008

• DNA is proof (just one of the proof).

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• DNA is NOT proof. It could be considered CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, but would be thrown out of any court of law in the western world.

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  by slothmister on July 9th, 2008

• lol...." thrown out of any court of law in the western world."...you cant be serious. DNA has free countless people on death row sentence, yet you wish to argue that DNA is not tanigble, undetable evidenec for GOD?!
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  Here is a clue as to why GOD is proven with DNA. it is a simple question, is DNA a language? is DNA a code? hmmm. think. look at a dictionary, ask a geneticist, ask a scientist, ask the person who discovered it, think very carefully before you deny that is it.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• DNA as evidence for god is circumstantial. The same as saying Mr X killed Mr y because the murder happened in LA and Mr X was in LA at the time.
  ,
  Now, as for DNA being proof for god, just read what I said. Ask anyone you like and they will give you the same answer. DNA is an incredibly complex thing, could be a pure chance occurrence? Sure. Could it be the creation of a god like being? Sure. Just because it exists does not mean it was designed.

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  by slothmister on July 9th, 2008

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• atheistic books don't answer these questions. isn't it better for me the ask the source?

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  by The Anonymous One on July 8th, 2008

• what source? AB is not affiliated with Christianity, atheism, or any other religious group...

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  by Stu B needs no COAT for summer on July 8th, 2008

• atheists. who is better to ask these question to than to one who deny GOD as an atheist. why are you so worked up about simply questions? maybe you are a latent atheist?

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  by The Anonymous One on July 8th, 2008

• good for you...

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  by Stu B needs no COAT for summer on July 8th, 2008

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• you can observe your dream, this is true. but i cannot. nor can anyone else. nor can you prove you saw what you saw. so dreams are unprovable.
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  Consensus doesn't prove anything. there is a major consensus that GOD is real yet you disbelieve.
  -
  and since God nor dreams cannot be proven, why do atheists hypnotically reject the notion of GOD yet accept the notion of dreams when both are unprovable? it seem contradicting their argument that logic and science supports their belief.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• I already admitted that dreams were not provable and there is more consensus that dreams are real than God being real. In fact there is quite a bit of consensus that there are more than one God, yet you disbelieve that. Why?

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 7th, 2008

• indeed i disbelieve that. the notion of many gods is illogical. the universe doesn't testify to many creators since its design and information (DNA) point to one source. the universe design and laws are consistent everywhere (from earth to the depths of space). 1 + 1 = 2 on earth and on mars for example.
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  so i ask you, will you now apply the same logic to disbelieve in GOD to dream? will you now admit and deny the existence of dreams as fairy tales, sky daddy, whatever since scientifically it cannot be proven as true? will you admit that what you experience in your sleep is nothing but fairy tales and doesn't exist?

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• As I've told you in other threads, dreams are subjective, just like faith is to you. I need not prove that I dream. I know that I dream and I still haven't met nor observed any Gods.Dreaming has absolutely nothing to do with proving that your God exists. You are way out on left field. Your the one dreaming about what proof you claim to have about your God being real. You are fooling yourself. You don't understand that your OPINION isn't PROOF. Shit or get off of the pot.

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 7th, 2008

• your existence and ability to reason and have awareness is proof of a creator. you cannot (will not) evolve these qualities accidentally. there is no evidence that would even suggest awareness and cognitive ability can evolve.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• until an atheist can disprove DNA to be pure language information, your belief that there is no Creator/GOD is wishful thinking.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• More of just YOUR OPINION. I don't think you get it. The fact that I can reason and am aware, is just more evidence that we are all the Universe. I'm that part of the universe that observes, just like your eyes see, for your skin encapsulated ego. I don't need to believe in a creator. Apparently you do. If I'm the universe, than I'm both the creator and the created. I'm the day and night.I'm the knower and the known. I'm the whole of all things opposite since I'm both.. Does this logic escape you?

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 7th, 2008

• awareness is gratitude. you have none

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  by The Anonymous One on July 8th, 2008

• Could you please elaborate on your silly assumption. I'm very grateful for my station in life and very content with my life.I have a wonderful wife and many loving friends and family members. It wasn't always that way. I used to be a lost individual, very angry and stuck in my head. I abused drugs of every kind and did some time in jail..I was searching for something. I found it through thoughtful meditation and learning to have faith with life. I was raised a Christian but experienced too much hypocrisy from many of the so called believers to continue that path. I chose another path. There are many paths that ascend to the same mountain.You just have blinders on and believe that your way is the only true way. You are sadly mistaken.

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 8th, 2008

• BTW..I'm also thankful and grateful that I have a business with my wife and can afford to give my Mother in law financial assistance at the same time I give money to The Cancer Society..

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 8th, 2008

• here is analogy of my statement "awareness is gratitude. you have none". How would you feel if you beggotten a child. you feed this child, raise this child, educated this child, helped this child, teach the child knowledge, guide the child form right and wrong, gave the child a car, gave him certain abilities, etc etc etc.
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  then this same child you did all these things denies you existence, denies everything you did for it, and tell everyone "he is as real as Santa Claus for adults." do you think that child is being grateful to you?
  -

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• here is another analogy, when someone give you are present, how do you prove yourself grateful to what that person have given you? you appreciate and cherish the present. you are not neglectful because you are AWARE of who gave you the present. Contrast that with something you just find on the street. you are completely unaware of who left it there so you therefore don't care for it.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• awareness is gratitude. you have none

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• Your assumption is based on having a belief in a God. Just because I don't believe, certainly doesn't mean I lack gratitude, except to you. And I couldn't care less what you think about me..

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 9th, 2008

• "Just because I don't believe, certainly doesn't mean I lack gratitude"......how can you be grateful to your wife if you believe she don't exist? let us please be logical and look at it rationally. Awareness is gratitude. You not only are lack unaware, but your great denial virtually eliminates your ability to be grateful in your current belief.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• (edit)"Just because I don't believe, certainly doesn't mean I lack gratitude"......how can you be grateful to your wife if you believe she don't exist? let us please be logical and look at it rationally. You not only lack unawareness but are in great denial. This virtually eliminates your ability to be grateful in your current belief.
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  how can you be grateful to you wife if you are in denial of her existence?

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• I'm pretty sure he KNOWS his wife exists

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  by Jiggy Kaiser on July 30th, 2008

• Thanx Jiggy. I certainly am quite aware of her existence. It just goes to show that that anon is in left field with his narrow thinking,interpretations and logic.

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on August 1st, 2008

• No prob, man. I'm not sure he's even in the ballpark.

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  by Jiggy Kaiser on August 1st, 2008

Comments

• Please present this evidence (link) because logically speaking brainwave activity doesn't prove dreams. To prove my point, you are having brainwave activity right now by reading this comment. does that mean you are dreaming? Or does that mean what you read was real or fake? If all you consider real is simply brainwave sensory and activity, how can you truly differentiate real from fake?

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• Logically speaking, unless you are capable of reading said brainwave scans, all the links in the world won't do you a damned bit of good.
  .
  Judging by your (rather absurd) response implying that you believe all brain activity is created equal, you do not have that capability.

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  by Lady Alathia of Vulcan on July 7th, 2008

• you missed the point. for example, lets assume you had a dream that you lifted a building over you head and say "i am superwoman!". and for the entire dream you save people lives. Can anyone prove that such a dream was real? can you present brainwave scans that shows you really saw such imagery in your head? no. you cannot. so technically you cannot prove your dream.
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  "Judging by your (rather absurd) response implying that you believe all brain activity is created equal, you do not have that capability."...you know, you can just admit you don't have any link to provide instead of spinning it as a fruitless attempt to insult me. :)

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• However, if one were connected to an EEG machine, they CAN prove by brain activity that a dream did, in fact, take place.
  .
  That, by FAR, is more physical evidence than any religious person has for their deity.

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  by Lady Alathia of Vulcan on July 7th, 2008

• However, if one were connected to an EEG machine, they CAN prove by brain activity that a dream did, in fact, take place.
  .
  That, by FAR, is more physical evidence than any religious person has for their deity.

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  by Lady Alathia of Vulcan on July 7th, 2008

• "they CAN prove by brain activity that a dream did"....no it doesn't. like i say the brain activity experience in a "dream" is the same brain activity experience when one do things.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreams#Neurology_of_sleep_and_dreams
  and i quote "during which an electroencephalogram shows brain activity to be most like wakefulness".
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  you cannot prove that you have/had a dream last night. just admit it instead of repeating you denial.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• You are ignorant. This argument isn't worth continuing.

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  by Lady Alathia of Vulcan on July 7th, 2008

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• what dream did you have last night and please present evidenec showing you have the specific dream. do this and i will submit to your argument.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• I can tell you in specific detail my dreams, but I lack the necessary equipment to prove such. Now send me said equipment, or around 10 grand to buy them, you'll have your proof. Now present evidence supporting otherwise?

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  by DiSTurBiA on July 9th, 2008

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• +1
  -
  I understand your point. There is a conflict with what we see in the world and what we we read in books claiming to be from GOD. But does that mean there is no GOD, or that those books are simply not author by GOD? There is a different. You see, proving GOD is easy, linking that GOD to a message is the more difficult task. But it not an impossible task if you are sincerely seeking the truth.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 7th, 2008

• If God is easy to prove, be my guest. Prove away..You can't!!

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 9th, 2008

• DNA. Mathematics.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• That isn't proof. It just proves to us that you lack the ability to logically present your case. Just stating, "DNA.Mathematics" is meaningless without an example. Grasshopper, you need to study up on how to properly debate..Have fun..LOL

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 9th, 2008

• dna is language, the only source to data language is intellgence.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• dna is information language.
  only a Mind, only Intelligence can produce information language.
  proof? ALL the languages and information languages in the world. All a result of a mind, of intelligence. all life has DNA therefore all life was created from Intelligence.
  -
  try you best to disprove this fact!

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• Mathematics:
  matter and energy have a beginning (big bang). if something has a beginning it means at one point it didn't exist. mathematics probability proves that is it impossible for for a nonexistence object bring about it own existence. the probability is zero. mathematically, matter and energy existence require a creator.
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  try you best to disprove this fact!

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  by The Anonymous One on July 9th, 2008

• I don't disagree that all life has intelligence. Just because it does, doesn't prove anything about how it came to be.DNA is in all life that we know of but no one has any evidence of how it came about. Anyone who says they know are just speculating at best. Mathematic: Your confusing a theory with what you think is a fact.The (big bang)or what is referred to The Big Bang Theory is just a theory not fact. There is no proof that it happened. You can't prove anything by using a theory to back up your claims. Your logic is in error again... In review of your "proof" I don't need to disprove something that hasn't been proved yet. That is just silly.

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 9th, 2008

• ok, i will submit to your argument about the big bang. since is classify as a theory (and even though evolution is also classify as a theory), i will ignore that.
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  Regarding DNA, you have expose your denial. First you agree that ALL life is based on intelligence (because the prove is undeniable) then you go and deny that since the origin of DNA is "unknown" there is not prove of GOD. This is hypocritical. DNA prove with a shadow of doubt that Life was created. It also prove that life originate from ONE source since the information has the same structure and application, but just like a skillful design use and reuse function. So if you are an atheist after accepting these undeniable facts, it is clear you truly don't seek the truth be wish to simply follow you desires.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 10th, 2008

• This is the difference between an atheist and a theist. a theist have tangible evidence support their claim (from DNA to physics), atheist don't. it is that simple.
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  Think about it clearly, what is your proof that GOD doesn't exist? the evolution theory? like you said, atheist also "confusing a theory with what you think is a fact."

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  by The Anonymous One on July 10th, 2008

• nice talking with you. peace

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  by The Anonymous One on July 10th, 2008

• Paxvobiscum Grasshopper. I hope you wake up someday..:)

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 10th, 2008

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• "- I (The "Atheist") start out with a question; "Do I believe that dreams real, and if so, can I see enough proof in what I know already to justify that belief. And if I can't, I adapt my belief on dreams accordingly."
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  this is a false statement. do you honestly expect me to believe you "started" out with a question like "Do I believe that dreams real"? let be honest and sincere with each other. you always believe dreams were real and probably never doubt it. But let say i gave you the benefit of the doubt, why do you assume believers in GOD didn't have the same approach? There are countless of ex-atheist in the world from Anthony Flew to Dr. Jeffrey Lang who approach the notion of GOD seeking tangible evidence.
  
  "- While you (The Theist) start out with a statement: "God is real. Now I'm going to prove it"....proving GOD existence is easy, i say this all the time. the more difficult task is linking that GOD with a message (but surely but a impossible one).
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  by The Anonymous One on July 10th, 2008

• Atheist need to stop being hypocritical. first they say "because GOD is unproven" then with you expose other things (like dreams) that are unproven yet they believe in, they spin. I think atheist need to he honest and say the ill of the world is the real reason they choose to deny GOD existence.

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  by The Anonymous One on July 10th, 2008

• First off you need to understand what being a hypocrite means. You aren't using the term properly in an argument that is clever but meaningless. There is a consensus that the majority of the people in the world experience having dreams. However, it is a minority of people that claim to have experienced God. This is clearly a very weak argument. Your reasoning of atheist not believing in a God because of the ills of the world is just one point made by another poster. It isn't the only reason by far that people don't believe in a God. One reason people don't believe is because of advocates like you that have no idea how to logically prove there case. You make no sense. You haven't effectively made a convincing case. Your logic is flawed again...

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  by macdjug-Paxvobiscum on July 10th, 2008

• When I say that I "Start out with a question" I mean that my logical conclusion isn't predetermined.
  You cannot search for truth with a statement.
  "You probably believe dreams were real and never doubt it" - No, you see, that is the essence of the difference between us, I DO doubt my beliefs, I doubt them at every moment, which I why I don't believe with %100 certainty that anyone besides me *Has* dreams.
  I believe in the dreams that I have experienced firsthand, and I've doubted it, but never seen fit to change that belief, because I've kept on waking up with the persistent memory of dreams.

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  by Mr. Meaulnes on July 10th, 2008

• "There are countless ex-atheist in the world..."
  Exactly, and if I ever saw irrefutable evidence of God's existence, I would be one of them.
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  Now let's move on to the second half of that sentence "...who approach the notion of GOD seeking tangible evidence."
  If there were a reason for them to become ex-Atheists in the first place, the seeking of tangible evidence would be moot.

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  by Mr. Meaulnes on July 10th, 2008

• macdjug-Paxvobiscum: I would be careful what I say if I were you. If you establish the idea that consensus or majority somehow make right, he'll find some way to twist that into his insane logic and imagine he has us cornered, and then we'll never shut him up.
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  And TAO: If "proving GOD existence is easy" then stop saying it and do it.
  I want irrefutable proof, something which leaves no other explanation, AT ALL, that anything other than exactly what Theists claim God to be exists.

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  by Mr. Meaulnes on July 10th, 2008

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