by Alatea on November 8th, 2005

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Why does the RLDS church reject the LDS doctrine of the nature of God?

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by Glenn Blaylock on November 18th, 2006
A response to mattyg's answer.

The revelation about the nature of God came before they broke away for the LDS Church. The beginning of this understanding came when both the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820. The specific nature of the members of the God head was given April 2, 1843 to Joseph Smith. This was during the Nauvoo period of the Church. The schism between the LDS and the eventual RLDS churches did not occur until after Joseph's death.

However, the Community of Christ, as it is now known, does not accept any of the doctrine or practices introduced during the Nauvoo period. If I understand correctly, they believe that Joseph lost his grip on reality during is imprisonment in Missouri. So, the only thing that they claim he did during this period that they accept as legitimate was to designate his oldest son, Joseph III, as his successor. We, of course, do not accept this claim and do accept the revelations of the Nauvoo period as legitimate.

However, this leads us back to the original question. Why does the Community of Christ reject the LDS teachings of the nature of God? Because, in an effort to become more accepted in the wider community of Christianity, they have rejected many of the unique doctrines that Joseph Smith taught. They of course don't see it this way, but it is the way we see it.

****************
I was just trying to find out where you were coming from. There are many people around here that state things as fact about us without bothering to check their sources. A lot of misinformation had been spread in this way.

The thing is that many of the points you bring up in your original comment have already been discussed elsewhere here. Within the part of the Book of Mormon where polygamy is discussed there is also a very clearly stated exception to the general rule of monogamy, namely, if God should command otherwise. We believe that He did for that period of time. The CofC does not.

As for Lucy Mack Smith, the RLDS church did not come into existence until 1860. However, Mrs Smith died in 1856. So, she was never a member of that church. It is also notable that, in the October 1844 General Conference, she stated that she hoped that all of her children would go west with Brigham Young and that she would go with them if they did (http://www.answers.com/topic/lucy-mack-smith). She was 69 at the time that she made this statement and 71 by the time the Saints actually started to leave Nauvoo. This was very old back then and this has led many to question the claims of the CofC that she was actually a supporter of their point of view. It is also quite possible that she simply chose to stay with her family in her declining years rather than be separated from them with the probability of never seeing them again. So, her choice to stay may not have had anything to do with religious disagreements with Brigham Young.

As for the founding members that helped found the RLDS church that had been prominent members in the original but “were purged by Joseph Smith in disagreements or power struggles.” Most of these people were excommunicated before the CofC claimed that Joseph fell from grace and at least one of the prominent members, Martin Harris, later repented of his association with them, moved to Utah, and rejoined the LDS Church.

One last thing, getting back to the original question, the idea of the Father and Son being separate individuals was already being taught by Joseph Smith before the Nauvoo period. In his 1838 account of the First Vision, Joseph quite clearly stated that the Father introduced the Son (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#16). One of the problems with a new religion is that it takes time to get all of the new concepts and doctrines introduced and accepted by the membership in general. The early members brought with them the beliefs that they had held in their original religions. So, there were differing views on many concepts running around for a while. Thus it takes the new religion time to weed out that which it considers false doctrine and substitute in what it considers to be the truth. When you actually study the history of what people believed about the Godhead in the early days of the Church you can see this evolution of beliefs as (that which we consider) correct doctrine replaced the old.
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- Of course the LDS, must see the RLDS rejection as a way to "fit in" to main-stream Christianity. They made these decisions when they first got together (around 1860) by combining several Mormon groups that did not migrate to Utah. Several prominent members involved in the formation of the RLDS were those that originally helped in the "founding of the Mormon faith," but were purged by Joseph Smith in disagreements or power struggles.
  
  Several members of Joseph's own family, including his wife and mother, joined and also agreed his Nauvoo-era "revelations" were a complete departure from the "truths" found in the BOM. The revelation on polygamy was conveniently announced *after* Emma found out he had been cheating on her and marrying other women. The BOM is very clear that polygamy is against the Mormon God. The LDS' "History of the Church" distorts the dates, but the truth is revealed in Emmas' letters and publication dates or Mormon papers like "Times & Seasons." Check it out!
  
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  by jimn on June 1st, 2007
- I am just wondering. By what authority do you write this? Are you a member of the Community of Christ?
  
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  by Glenn Blaylock on June 1st, 2007
- Glenn, I am just wondering... By what authority did you write your answer about CoC? Are you a member of the CoC? Are you trying to say that a person has to be a member of the LDS or CoC to answer??? More junk.
  
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  by jimn on December 4th, 2007
- No, I am not saying that one must be a member of the CoC to know what they believe, but I would take an actual member of that church as being a greater authority on the subject than someone who is not a member of either of our religions. I know from personal experience how members of other faiths will distort the beliefs of those with whom they disagree. So, once again, by what authority do you make these claims to know what the CoC believes?
  
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  by Glenn Blaylock on December 5th, 2007
- Glenn, why do you use the term "authority"? Do you use this guise to deny my comments? You didn't refute or discuss any of my points, but simply challenge my authority. Interesting debate tactic... :-(
  
  I have investigated both churches, have friends/family who are/were members of both, have discussed their beliefs in depth, and have done research on both using church & non-church sources.
  
  I know that I strayed from the original question and your answer in my comment. I had to demonstrate a reason why they rejected later JS teachings, because you dismiss their thoughtful examination and subsequent rejection of what they considered false and label it as an attempt to fit-in simply because it differs from your group's beliefs.
  
  BTW, by what authority do respond to an RLDS question as to what they believe? Are you a member of the CoC?
  
  Please respond to the core of my rebuttal, not to this authority stuff.
  
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  by jimn on December 8th, 2007
- Response added to original answer.
  
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  by Glenn Blaylock on December 8th, 2007
- Having read through this again, I realized that there was one other issue that I failed address. That is, I don't claim to be and expert on the doctrines of the C of C. If you look at my original response, you will not that I started my statement on their beliefs with, "If I understand correctly,..." If someone with greater knowledge of what they do believe than I has any corrections, then I am willing to entertain them. However, I would like some explanation as to why that person thinks they know more than I do. When it comes to explaining the beliefs of a religion, I am more willing to accept the word of someone who practices that religion than I am some one who does not. I know from experience how misinformed people who do not practice a particular religion can be about what those who do actually believe. So, as stated above, I was just trying to find out Jimn's source of information and perspective so as to be able to better judge the validity of his assertions.
  
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  by Glenn Blaylock on May 22nd, 2008
- Interesting discussion above.
  
  I am 5th generation RLDS. There are also some very misleading statements above regarding RLDS that I may post later but I first want to answer the leading question.
  
  I would be more than happy to discuss my concept of the nature of God. However, in order to better understand the question and since I am not LDS, what is the LDS concept of the nature of God?
  
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  by RLDS Guy on December 31st, 2008
- God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings that are one in purpose. In other words, they are one in the same sense that a team is one. To back up this belief, we reference the gospel accounts of Jesus' baptism where we have separate manifestation of each. We also reference Joseph Smiths 1938 account of his fist vision where he clearly states that he saw and spoke with two separate personages (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#16). Finally, there is D & C 130: 22 where he described the nature of each member of the Godhead. (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/130/22#22)
  
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  by Glenn Blaylock on December 31st, 2008
- My personal perception of God is shaped by my personal study of the scriptures. We all learned, as children, about God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. However, as we grow, perceptions also grow. People tend to describe God in the way that they have experienced Him. Joseph Smith tended to describe God as more human-like because that was his experience. Others have seen God in a burning bush, a pillar of fire, a dove, a mighty wind, the beauty of God’s creation. God is so far above us that to define him is to limit those ways in which He can reach us.
  
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  by RLDS Guy on January 1st, 2009
- So that we might come to know God, He sent his Son, Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that we can know God. I have a personal testimony of standing in the presence of Jesus Christ. He was fully human to understand us in our weaknesses and for us to know that He understands. He was fully divine so that he could take upon himself the sins of innocent and repentant. My image of Jesus is more human-like although with spiritual body. The Holy Spirit is that non-tangible force that can guide and direct those who are sensitive to its leadings. It may be a powerful force in one’s heart or words whispered in our minds or ears.
  The three are of one mind. Their unity of mind is as though all three are one.
  
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  by RLDS Guy on January 1st, 2009
- My church does not dictate in finite detail a specific perception of the Godhead. There was no purposeful "change" in interpretation to be more ecumenical. Each person is called to come to personally know God and Christ and the Holy Spirit to the best of their abilities and understanding. We are guided by scripture but do not worship scripture. Scriptures are testimonies and, as we grow, we gain our own testimonies.
  
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  by RLDS Guy on January 1st, 2009
- So, your church does not take an official stand on the question as to which version of the Godhead is correct? You don't officially ascribe to either the trinity doctrine (three different aspects of a single being) or the idea that they are three separate individuals that are one in purpose?
  
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  by Glenn Blaylock on January 1st, 2009
- I am reminded of a favorite hymn that begins with: "We limit not the truth of God to our poor reach of mind."
  I do not pass judgment on defining exactly what God is or is not. I don't believe the Church does either. In many things, such questions are left open and up to the individual.
  
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  by RLDS Guy on January 1st, 2009
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by Anonymous on November 11th, 2005
Because they Apostatised from the truth.
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- They, of course, don't see it that way, but it is the way we see it. BTW, they are called the Community of Christ now.
  
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  by Glenn Blaylock on November 12th, 2005
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by RLDS Guy on January 2nd, 2009
Re: the legitimacy of the “revelations” of the Nauvoo period:

To be a revelation, it is to be submitted by the living person to the membership. The quorums and membership, after prayerful consideration, vote to accept or reject what was presented as revelation and to make it binding upon them. This was the pattern established in Kirtland before the publication of the Kirtland edition of the D&C. None the “revelations” of Nauvoo followed this pattern but were added to the D&C by the editor after the death of Joseph Smith. This would then raise the question of whether or not Joseph Smith, himself, considered them revelatory. Also they had not been presented to nor voted on by any church assembly at that time. The RLDS has decided not to recognize them as revelatory.
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by True_To_The_Faith on May 22nd, 2008
All i have to add is. God has the power to either bless are take away... IF J S had lost his mind in nauvoo, God would not have let him Lead His church. Point blank. Go does not make mistakes.. even though He said he did in Genesis... He saved the life of Noah and his family...

I do not know much about the RLDS church, and since i have only been a member of this church for 8 years i try to concentrate n their teachings.. more than anything else..
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- True_To_The_Faith, first of all, welcome to Answerbag! It’s great to see another Latter-day Saint here, “fighting the good fight,” so to speak. ;-)
  
  That having been said, I did want to point out that while God doesn’t make mistakes, his prophets sometimes do. They’re only human, after all, and I’ve repeatedly cited the ninth chapter of the Book of Joshua to prove this point. There’s a *big* difference between an honest, human failing and a prophet actually leading away the Church. That’s why I also don’t buy the whole “Joseph lost his grip on reality” argument, and I *do* agree that God wouldn’t let someone insane continue lead His Church.
  
  Great response. +3, and welcome!
  
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  by the Otter on May 23rd, 2008
- I don’t think Joseph lost his grip on himself. I think he became surrounded by people of questionable moral standards. Joseph privately counseled them as he learned of their nefarious ways. They claimed repentance, he forgave them and they just got more cautious to avoid getting caught. Much was done behind his back. His name was slandered behind his back. There was as much persecution from within the church as there was from outside the church. For example, John C. Bennett was finally excommunicated after an attempt on Joseph’s life.
  
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  by RLDS Guy on January 2nd, 2009
- True that, RLDS Guy. Thanks!
  
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  by the Otter on January 5th, 2009
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by Anonymous on November 30th, 2007
The Community of Christ rejects the LDS understanding as it does not fit with the 1830s understanding that is expressed in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Inspired Version of the Holy scriptures, and other translations of the Bible, and Taught By Joseph Smith in the 1820s and 1830s and based on understandings dating back almost 2000 years and further developed since. In Many ways Community of Christ in the 1830s theological descendant of the Church of Christ and the LDS is the 1840s theological descendant.
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by wade into the ocean on May 14th, 2007
I donot know much about them... But the following are thier beliefs:

http://www.cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faith-beliefs.asp

We are an international Christian church with 250,000 members found in more than fifty nations. Our International Headquarters, including a Temple dedicated to the pursuit of peace, is located in Independence, Missouri. The church was organized in 1830 in New York State.

Our Mission
We proclaim Jesus Christ and promote communities of joy, hope, love, and peace.

We Offer . . .
a community of people where the gospel of Jesus Christ is the focus of worship, learning, caring, and mission.

an opportunity for genuine spiritual growth and relationship with the Holy Spirit.

local congregations where deep friendships are established, individual ideas are valued, and where those special needs find security, care, and support.

a faith community that encourages the ministry of all people, including children and youth.

a global community with a worldwide mission that values all cultures and celebrates the rich diversity of human life.

meaningful opportunities to serve Jesus Christ by helping others and promoting peace.

Our Faith and Beliefs
Recognizing that the perception of truth is always qualified by human nature and experience, there is no official church creed that must be accepted by all members. However, through the years various statements, such as those listed below, have been developed to present the generally accepted beliefs of the church. All people are encouraged to study the scriptures, to participate in the life and mission of the church, and to examine their own experiences as they grow in understanding and response to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

God
The one eternal, living God is triune: one God in three persons. The God who meets us in the testimony of Israel is the same God who meets us in Jesus Christ, and who indwells creation as the Holy Spirit. God is the Eternal Creator, the source of love, life, and truth. God actively loves and cares for each person. All things that exist owe their being to God who alone is worthy of our worship.

Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is "God with us," the Son of God, and the living expression of God in the flesh. Jesus Christ lived, was crucified, died, and rose again. The nature, love, and purpose of God are most clearly seen in Jesus Christ, our Savior.

Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the continuing presence of God in the world. The Spirit works in our minds and hearts through intelligence, comfort, guidance, love, and power to sustain, inspire, and remake us.

Salvation
God loves us even though we are sinful. Through the ministry of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit, we are able to turn to God and receive the gifts of salvation and eternal life. Those who accept the gospel are called to respond to Christ through baptism and committed discipleship. As individuals exercise faith in Christ and follow his example and teachings, they become new people.

The Church
Christian discipleship is most fully possible when it is pursued in a community of committed believers. The church, as part of the body of Christ, is the means through which the ministry of Christ continues in the world today. It is a community of people seeking to bring God's love to all through compassionate ministry, worship, the sacraments, and witness.

Revelation
The process through which God reveals divine will and love is called revelation. God continues to reveal today as in the past. God is revealed to us through scripture, the faith community, prayer, nature, and in human history.

Scripture
The scriptures provide divine guidance and inspired insight for life when responsibly interpreted and faithfully applied. With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as scripture for the church. In our tradition, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are additional scriptural witnesses of God’s love and Christ’s ministry.

Sacraments
The sacraments express the continuing presence of Christ through the church. They help us establish and continually renew our relationship with God. Through them we establish or reaffirm our covenant with God in response to God's grace. The sacraments of the church are baptism, confirmation of membership, the Lord's Supper (Communion), marriage, blessing of children, administration to the sick, ordination to the priesthood, and the evangelist's blessing.

Human Worth
God loves each of us equally and unconditionally. All persons have great worth and should be respected as creations of God with basic human rights. The willingness to love and accept others is essential to faithfulness to the gospel of Christ.

All Are Called
All men, women, youth, and children are given gifts and abilities to enhance life and to become involved in Christ's mission. Some are called to particular responsibility as ordained ministers (priesthood) in the church. The church provides for a wide range of priesthood ministries through calling and ordination of both men and women.

Free Agency
All people are free to choose, resulting in real consequences of good and evil to our lives, the lives of others, and our environment. Commitment to Christ, sensitivity to the Holy Spirit, and participation in the faith community help people make responsible choices that enhance human life and respect creation.

Stewardship
All things were created by God and should be used for God’s purposes. Stewardship is the wise management of gifts and resources to enrich personal, family, congregational, and community life, as well as utilizing natural resources for the good of all creation.

The Kingdom
God's kingdom is present wherever people acknowledge the lordship of God over life, relationships, and creation. The full coming of the kingdom awaits the final victory over evil when divine rule is established and justice, peace, and righteousness prevail.

Zion
The "cause of Zion" expresses our commitment to pursuing God's kingdom through the establishment of Christ-centered communities in families, congregations, neighborhoods, cities, and throughout the world.

Peace
Because of our commitment to Christ and belief in the worth of all people and the value of community building, we dedicate our lives to the pursuit of peace and justice for all people.

Resurrection
God conserves and renews life as revealed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, a sign of God's ultimate victory over death. In Christ’s resurrection, we find hope and courage for living. Through resurrection, God transforms individuals, bringing them into the fullness of eternal life.

Judgment
Our eternal destiny is determined by God according to divine wisdom and love and according to our response to God's call to us. God's judgment is just and is based on the kind of people we have become in relation to the potential of our lives.

End Time
God is acting in history to reconcile all creation to divine purpose. The meaning and end to which history moves is revealed in Christ. The ultimate victory of righteousness and peace over injustice, evil, and sin is assured because of the unfailing love of God and the conviction that Christ is coming again.

You are invited to continue exploring the mission, faith, and beliefs of the church by visiting one of our local congregations. Countless people have found hope for their lives and encountered the living Christ through the ministries, sacraments, teachings, and mission of the church.

Please contact Missionary Ministries for information regarding the congregation nearest you or if you have questions or would like to receive additional information about the church. A minister is available online to answer questions Sunday evenings from 9 to 10 p.m. central time on our PathFinder website.
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by mattyg on November 18th, 2006
I cant help but think that the person calling them the devil is not actually a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In any case the RLDS church or "Community of Christ broke off in 1860 and since then have developed many key differences. Hence the "Reorganized" in their former title. They are very much separate from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The revelation about the "nature of god" came to a prophet of the CJCLDS long after they broke off.
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by Changegrl on November 16th, 2006
Because they're of the Devil, Who are they to Question the teachings and basic beliefs of the church, how dare they use LDS in there title this misleads people who really want to know about the LDS faith, RLDS are not Latter Day Saints. Sorry I just don't like religions who mess it up for everyone else whose trying to learn about the truthfulness of the Latter Day Saints (The Real Latter Day Saints)
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- I'm LDS don't get me wrong but I do have a friend who grew up in this other faith. She was a good person, and at least they have some of the truths that Joseph Smith taught. Try not to put everyone in the same box, just like alot of other people do to us LDS folks.
  
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  by Jennybean on November 19th, 2006
- The reorganised church of Jesus Christ is the true church by the many visions proclaiming the church will never loose her place . And even the courts recognised the rlds as the trueful continuation of the church established through Joseph.
  
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  by ned kelly on May 17th, 2011
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by NauvooSaint on January 3rd, 2009
The official 1842 'Times and Seasons' newspaper account of Joseph's First Vision in the Palmyra Grove was the accepted official version by both RLDS and LDS churches. Although both churches place a different understanding of what Joseph's spiritual experience/vision meant in relation to the seperateness of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, the RLDS have never recoganized our Heavenly Father as having a physical body other than as represented by Jesus Christ. (see Colosians 2:9)

In the first edition or 1835 'Book of Doctrine and Covenants' and later editions was the 'Lectures of Faith'. Lecture #5 talks of the nature and relationship of the godhead. This was the doctrinal/canonized understanding of the original church during Joseph's lifetime.

http://www.centerplace.org/hs/dc/lec-005.htm

In the spring of 1844, Joseph Smith, Jr. gave a funeral sermon referred to as the 'King Follet Discourse' where it's claimed that he taught a plurality of God and the ability of men to become gods. Later in June just days before Joseph was killed in Carthage, IL (June 27, 1844) it's claimed Joseph again taught a similar doctrine. RLDS question these teachings and whether Joseph actually taught them as there are some witnesses on record who stated he didn't (ie: private secertary James Whitehead) and the King Follet Discourse was published in the 'Times and Seasons' newspaper approx. 2 months after Joseph's death (4 months after it was given).

http://www.restored.org/lds/kingfoll.htm
http://www.restored.org/lds/cgodhead.htm
http://www.restored.org/lds/dnc1god.htm
http://www.restored.org/lds/dnc121.htm

The following is an article written by a grandson of Joseph Smith, Jr. that was the teaching of the RLDS church on the godhead prior to the 'Community of Christ'.

http://restorationbookstore.org/articles/doctrine/godchristtwo.htm
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