According to Christian doctrine, Satan was created to unquestioningly obey and worship Yahweh, which is the very definition of slavery, for all of eternity, and Satan rebelled. Why is Satan so strongly criticized for rebelling against this?

Comments

• Very true.

  • Report
  

  by AntigoneRising on June 12th, 2007

• If a car is driving along a road and a sign says "Do not proceed: bridge out", it is the free will of the driver to continue or not, but he must accept the consequences. Perhaps God knows the bridge is out. However, by all means keep driving.

  • Report
  

  by singwell-is off researching a lot on July 3rd, 2007

• Can you give me an example of how your analogy applies to marrying your daughter to her rapist, burning a priest's daughter, or failing to worship Yahweh? I am having a hard time following, since your religion states that everything is according to Yahweh's plan. This means that the consequences are also deliberately designed by Yahweh. This makes them punishment, not natural causality.

  • Report
  

  by AntigoneRising on July 3rd, 2007

Comments

Comments

• A child is (or should be) allowed to question everything. It's how we learn. Blindly following someone's commands and being made to worship would be slavery.

  • Report
  

  by jt007m on June 12th, 2007

• Agreed but a decision to follow what you believe to be good leadership is not slavery.

  • Report
  

  by peterpam on June 12th, 2007

• Actually, unquestioning obedience is called slavery unless it is paid for. A child eventually grows up, but Yahweh demands eternal obedience and devotion. Your parent/child analogy ceases to apply in this context. Your employee/boss analogy ceases to apply because the employee is paid, and employment is at will. The employee has the right to terminate his/her employment at any time. Your analogies also fall short in the idea of "good". No where has Yahweh ever been proven to be good - other than His followers saying so. His actions documented in the Bible overwhelmingly point away from a characterization of "good".

  • Report
  

  by AntigoneRising on June 12th, 2007

• Y'WH does not need to be proven good it is by observation. But yor argument is totally flawed in that the gift of God (Wages?) is eternal life and so all that you say is void.

  • Report
  

  by peterpam on June 12th, 2007

• Observation? I haven't directly observed Yahweh doing anything. The actions/stories attributed to Him in the Bible are generally cruel, unethical, and evil. Yahweh doesn't seem to give eternal life, either. In fact, if life is given, it seems to be, by default, eternal (you are destined for Heaven or Hell, not complete lack of existence, same for Satan). I fail to see how eternal existence effects my arguments at all. Please elaborate.

  • Report
  

  by AntigoneRising on June 12th, 2007

• There is the difference, I can see something that you cannot. That does not prove existance or non-existance. Faith is the answer faith to beliece or equal faith not to believe and so it is each to his own I suppose. I cannot prove, you cannot dis-prove but debate is good and healthy. It sharpens the mind and helps to formulate well thought out discussion. Is that a round about way of saying truce?

  • Report
  

  by peterpam on June 12th, 2007

• Perhaps it is I who see something you cannot, since I'm the one who switched paradigms from Christianity. I've seen what you see. I thrive on debate, in case you haven't noticed. Truces are good. I didn't realize that we were fighting. :-|

  • Report
  

  by AntigoneRising on June 12th, 2007

• No fight just wondering where we were going with it. Truce was abad choice of words. Perhaps the debate has moved on to the question of authorship of the bible.

  • Report
  

  by peterpam on June 12th, 2007

• Sorry Antigone Rising I mixed you up with Sunblynd and so my final comment is pointless.

  • Report
  

  by peterpam on June 12th, 2007

• peterpam, you are lost.

  • Report
  

  by Don Gorgeous George on April 27th, 2009

• lost to what?

  • Report
  

  by peterpam on April 27th, 2009

• You think it is good to obey any voice that claims to be your creator, assuming that it is in your best interests. Look at what happened in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 when the Jews killed an entire village of people including children, animals and newborn infants. They obeyed a voice that told them it was the LORD.

  • Report
  

  by Don Gorgeous George on April 28th, 2009

• How do you know what I think?

  • Report
  

  by peterpam on April 28th, 2009

• I know more than you realize.

  • Report
  

  by Don Gorgeous George on April 29th, 2009

• Are you sure?

  • Report
  

  by peterpam on April 29th, 2009

Comments

• If you know next to nothing about what happened with Him, how do you know He is evil?

  • Report
  

  by AntigoneRising on July 3rd, 2007

• That we know. He has never done anything good since he disobeyed God.

  • Report
  

  by singwell-is off researching a lot on July 3rd, 2007

• Actually, I haven't read about him doing anything horrible since his fallout with Yahweh, but I can certainly read Yahweh's atrocities. I know the Bible asserts that Satan was the "evil" party, but the evidence thereafter (in the Bible) doesn't bare that out. In fact, if you equate Satan with the serpent in Eden, the serpent was the only one in the story who never lied.

  • Report
  

  by AntigoneRising on July 3rd, 2007

• Ah, but he did. He "forgot" to tell them that the power they sought was destructive to everything they knew. It was a lie of omission.

  • Report
  

  by singwell-is off researching a lot on July 3rd, 2007

• Really? Interesting. Eden was destroyed? When? I just thought they were ejected. They certainly didn't die.

  • Report
  

  by AntigoneRising on July 3rd, 2007

• Eden was destroyed by the same flood that completely changed the entire face of this planet. Common logic. Satan and a third of the angels made a "conscious choice" to rebel against God. If they made a conscious choice, they evidently had free reign to do so. Where exactly is this "Christian doctrine" found that describes Satan being created to unquestioningly obey and worship Yahweh? Scripture says no such thing. Satan didn't rebel against the supposed slavery that he was supposedly held in. Satan wanted to be like the most High God. Satan wanted to dethrone God. Satan rebelled because of his pride and arrogance in wanting to be like God. The created (satan) was not and is not greater than the Creator (God). Satan took with him, the third of the rebellious angels when he got kicked out of heaven. Pride and arrogance, not slavery, caused satan to rebel.

  • Report
  

  by The Galaxy Hitchhiker on June 15th, 2009

• Actually, I haven't read about him doing anything horrible since his fallout with Yahweh... to quote you Antigone. Seven Old Testament books and every New Testament writer refer to Satan. Jesus referred to Satan (Matt.13:39; Luke 10:18; 11:18). satan has intellect (2 Cor.11:3), emotions (Rev.12:17) and will (2 Tim.2:26. He is called Satan, the Devil (slanderer), Lucifer (son of the morning), Beelzebub (Lord of the flies – Matt.12:24), and Belial (lawless – 2 Cor.6:15), the evil one (1 John 5:19), the tempter (1 Thess.3:5), the prince of this world (John 12:31), the god of this age (2 Cor.4:4), the prince of the power of the air (Eph.2:2), the accuser of the brethren (Rev.12:10), and angel of light (false light – 2 Cor.11:14), a serpent (Rev.12:9), and a dragon (Rev.12:3).

  • Report
  

  by The Galaxy Hitchhiker on June 15th, 2009

• The Nature of Satan. He is a created angelic being. He was created as part of the angelic realm (Eph.6:11,12; Ezek.24:18) and was the highest in rank of them all (Ezek.28:12-14). He is an enemy of righteousness. He is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and accuser (Rev.12:10) and our adversary (1 Pet.5:8). He is a limited creature. He is limited by God (Job.1:12). He is not God’s equal (1 John 4:4). He is not omniscient, omnipotent or infinite in any way. Believers with God’s help can resist him (James 4:7). Satan is seeking to oppose God’s plan by promoting evil in every way possible.
  He works indirectly through the world (in which he has great freedom and power – John 12:31; 1 John 5:19) and the flesh (Gal.5:19-21).

  • Report
  

  by The Galaxy Hitchhiker on June 15th, 2009

• The world, the flesh and the devil are not three separate enemies of the Christian. Rather Satan works through the evil world system (1 John 2:13-15) to exploit the fleshly nature that still wars within us (Rom.7:18; Gal.5:19-21). He works directly by deception, temptation, attack and possession. He tempted Christ (Matt.4:1-11). He attempted to thwart Christ’s work (John 8:44; Matt.16:23; Luke 22:31). He possessed Judas to accomplish the betrayal (John 13:27). In unbelievers, satan blinds their minds to hinder their understanding of the gospel (2 Cor.4:4). When the gospel is heard or understood, he tries to hinder its effect (Luke 8:12). He uses persecution (Rev.2:10) and false religions (Rev.2:13) to hinder the effect of the gospel.

  • Report
  

  by The Galaxy Hitchhiker on June 15th, 2009

• satan tempts believers (to pride – 1 Chron.21:1-8; to materialism – John 2:15; James 5:1-7; to immorality – 1 Cor.7:5; to lie – Acts 5:3; to discouragement – 1 Pet.5:6-10; to be unforgiving – 2 Cor.2:10,11 etc.). He hinders the ministries of believers (1 Thess.2:18; Rev.2:10). He promotes false teaching among believers (1 John 4:1-4). He promotes anger, bitterness and division (Eph.4:26,27; 2 Cor.2:5-11).
  
  AntigoneRising, getting back to your statement about you not reading about him doing anything horrible since his fallout with Yahweh. On the contrary, Scripture has spelled out in no uncertain terms just how evil satan is. You can see the effects of this evil if you are willing to look for it. satan gets a lot of negative press in the Bible, and rightly so. You haven't read about anything bad satan has done since his fallout with Yahweh, because you aren't looking for it nor are you willing to acknowledge. Walking through life with your eyes closed doesn't stop the evil

  • Report
  

  by The Galaxy Hitchhiker on June 15th, 2009

• running rampant in this world. satan is an extremely evil and malevolent being but he works best under cover, out of sight and out of mind. According to you, Yahweh has committed atrocities. Where might these atrocities be found? In Scripture? But wait, if Yahweh's supposed atrocities are found in Scripture, that means you have supposedly read Scripture. If that's true then surly you must have seen all of the negative Scripture pointing to satan's atrocities, seen and unseen. No? Does this mean then that you have selective eye sight and embrace only that which coincides with your belief system. In this case, Yahweh is the bad guy and satan is the good guy. If you think that Yahweh has committed atrocities, then you are using your finite mind to try and make sense of something or justify why you think the way you do. You obviously have no spiritual clue about. You see God through your finite flesh instead of through the Holy Spirit.

  • Report
  

  by The Galaxy Hitchhiker on June 15th, 2009

Comments

Comments

• Uh, yes, slavery. When you are created in utter subservience (constant obedience and praise) and are punished for any show of free will, that's ownership. Ownership of people is called slavery.

  • Report
  

  by AntigoneRising on September 24th, 2009

• Yes, that is what Satan does; he enslaves. It is the truth of God sets us free. Sin is like a spider web. The more we engage in it, the less freedom we have. To be enslaved to God is to be set free.

  • Report
  

  by andthenitsgone on September 26th, 2009

• Subservience is joyous! It is far greater than what this flesh desires. This is true love.

  • Report
  

  by andthenitsgone on September 26th, 2009

Comments