No, thoughts are determined by input after and even before we learn a language. Information, ideas. and other types of input determine your thoughts.

It seems that viki and Ben are thinking along the same lines as i am. Thought is a very complex process that the best of us are still trying to unravel. We best control our thoughts by carefully choosing input. We can ruin a perfectly good mind by viewing mental garbage or we can develop its potential by meditating on upbuilding, useful things. Language clearly influences thought. Do you know people who constantly use vulgar and profane words in everyday speech? Often they just have developed the habit of taking the lazy way out. It takes effort and practice to pick a useful word that really fits the thought we want to convey. Learning a second and third language certainly influences thought. Speaking English and seeing how different things look from the Spanish and German perspectives makes me think more carefully and not assume that my little viewpoint is the 'right one'. The Spanish, for example, can't actually say 'i like...' or 'i am this many years old'. They say '... pleases me' and 'i have this many years'. It's a subtle difference, but it affects thinking. If a German says, 'I am cold', it means he's cold-hearted. If he says, 'It is to me cold', he's wishing for a jacket. So, i would say that whatever tongue we speak, we can choose our general way of thinking, but the words we hear and use definitely influence the details.

Quite the opposite, someone had to think up the concept of language, therefore thought must also be present without language. So, it could be argued that thought determines language.

So when they were "thinking up the concept of language", how were they thinking? We can't even begin to imagine since when we think we always either think in words or images (which themselves are concept-ridden).

What I do know is that language (verbage) is the outpouring of the thought patterns that we are going through.

No, language does not determine thought. Here's some reasons why: 1. Sometimes people are thinking something but can't remember the words to express it in. Hence they must be able to think without words. 2. Language is often ambiguous and hence under-determines thought. For example, consider the sentence, "I am going to miss the bus." Does this mean, "the bus will leave before I get on it" or "I will be sad because the bus if going away"? The meaning of the sentence is not inherent in the words, but depends on context. Hence in order to understand language, needs more than language itself. 3. There are many thought-processes that don't rely on language. For example, I am angered when I see children beating a dog. That's me thinking, but it's got nothing to do with language.

Helps to organize & evaluate ("reality-test") thoughts.

We think on several different levels from conscious, language-structured thoughts, to virtually unconscious reactive type thoughts. Language is very helpful in structuring thoughts, but it seems a stretch to say that it "determines" thought.

OK.

No, but it has been shown that language can tend to channel thought in a limited way.

Me thinks you are expressing your thoughts in English and not the thought pattersn of a second language

Ah yes, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis There is ample evidence that language does not determine thought, but will limit your ability to think about and discuss various ideas. You can think of language as being like a bucket. Some ideas are too big or too unwieldy to "carry" in the bucket if your language skills aren't adequate to "hold" them. As a very simple example, consider the fact that some languages do not have separate words for green and blue. If you only speak that language, you cannot have a meaningful discussion about the merits of painting your room green versus blue.