by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012

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Should language be stiff/proper/rigid or ought we have fun with it/enjoy it/make it a lively reflection of ourselves? Should proper rule?

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by ! on February 3rd, 2012

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I think if people play about with language then their personality shines through more. Drives me mad when I see people correct other people on the net over the most petty grammar and spelling errors and proceed to use the mistake to base an overall (probably negative) opinion about a person, just because they made a mistake. Ludicrous.
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- ((hugs)) You exactly got my point my friend. Precisely. Drives me bonkers too. I can't tell you how happy I am to read your answer Scorpio! Well maybe I can with Asker's Pick! Thank you for your answer and Happy Friday! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
- Thank you Rosie. I appreciate your comment. Have a great weekend :)
  
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  by ! on February 3rd, 2012
- You're welcome scorpio and Happy Saturday! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 4th, 2012
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by Old School on February 3rd, 2012

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The notion of "proper" language versus "improper" language is one that is loaded with all kinds of prejudices: racist, classist, and otherwise.

Language is an organic entity that continually evolves. Attempts to freeze a particular version of a language and declare it the "proper" version are simply misguided.
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- I wasn't thinking along racial lines at all OS until you brought it up. I am addressing the language police that stalk AB at times looking for impropriety..a misspelled word here..a misplaced word there. They pounce with alacrity and glee and delight in embarrassing the perpetrator of such a heinous deed. I think they should lighten up and relax. This is an internet social site. It is not the office or a publishing firm or school. No one is designated teacher here. We are all the same. English is often not the first language of many of our members. Are we here to talk, converse, discuss or are we here to critique spelling, syntax, word usage? That is what my question is about OS. The darker edges that you bring into play? Not my intention or my focus. Thank you for your answer and Happy Friday! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
- The grammar police are a singularly lifeless sort. However, when some stiff-necked fundamentalist starts a theist war over an unimportant turn of phrase (one of the more frequent pie fights in these pages), it's high time to call them short on it.
  
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  by canoeguide on February 3rd, 2012
- @RosieG - In my Linguistics class, we are currently covering grammar across languages.
  
  One of the points we learned is how "proper" English was largely an invention of British imperialists, who wanted there to be a "standard" version of English across the Empire, the same way a "standard" version of Latin was supposedly used across the Roman Empire.
  
  Also, here in Hawaii there is a huge legacy of suppressing the language of Native Hawaiians. First by banning the teaching of Hawaiian, then by suppressing the use of Hawaiian Creole English ("Pidgin"), which is what most Native Hawaiians began speaking as their original language passed into disuse.
  
  This was the context in which I interpreted your question.
  
  I agree that "grammar Nazis" can be real kill-joys. If I see someone make a grammatical error, I usually won't comment unless it's unintentionally funny.
  
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  by Old School on February 3rd, 2012
- Mea culpa OS and apologies. I totally forgot that you are studying that entire subject. I thought you were talking about ebonics. The language police really don't like it. I see your proper use of " " indicating you don't think much of proper or standard. So we agree. I didn't know about the problem in Hawaii. Let me guess who did the suppressing...the religious folks who invaded? The clergy? Geez what a crock! They also brought disease to the islands. Some great legacy that! Mahalo for the clarification and Happy Saturday my friend! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 4th, 2012
- @RosieG - No need to apologize. We each bring our different perspectives to the subject and often we learn from each other.
  
  The "ebonics" brouhaha actually has an interesting tie-in to Polynesia.
  
  The whole raison d'etre for the controversy was that the US federal government had made money available for supplementary education to help speakers of English-like creoles (e.g. Samoan Tok Pijin) learn standard English. This money was intended for places like Samoa and Guam.
  
  The Oakland School Board had the bright idea of tapping into that money to provide extra help for speakers of African American Vernacular English (i.e. Oakland inner-city youth) to learn "proper" English.
  
  The Oakland School Board made three major mistakes:
  
  1) African American Vernacular English is considered a dialect in linguistics community. Tok Pidgin and the like are considered separate languages.
  
  2) In their proposal, the School Board claimed AAVE was "genetically-based", by which they meant that it arose from the melding of African-Americans' native languages and English. Linguistic analysis suggests this assertion is factually incorrect.
  
  3) The School Board vastly underestimated just how much the Vast Right Wing Echo Chamber (and the media as a whole) would exploit their well-intentioned bungling.
  
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  by Old School on February 4th, 2012
- I love that OS. I might use it in a question. I will give you attribution for it! "Well-intentioned bungling". Yep. Says it all doesn't it? Mahalo and Happy Wednesday my friend! :) ((hugs))
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 15th, 2012
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by Alty on February 3rd, 2012
I'll be the first to admit that grammar is not my friend. If people had to judge me based solely on what I write, I'm afraid I would not come off as an intelligent person. I love commas, and even though I do know where to place them properly, I tend to put them where I please. :)

One thing I think we all need to keep in mind is that the written word is rarely an accurate way to decipher what a person is actually feeling, or thinking. The written word lacks facial expression, tone, pauses, and so much more. It's very difficult to express yourself accurately in writing.

If I could do that I'd be writing books, not posts on a site. ;)

I do have one peeve about the written word. I despise text talk. I don't really care if a person doesn't write a sentence properly (who am I to judge that), but at least write full words so that I have a hope in hell of understanding what you're trying to say. Text talk is way too hard for me to decode, and I'm too old and stubborn to learn.
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- I don't use text talk abbreviations either Alty. I do however purposely and purposefully mangle words when it suits my purpose. I also make up words if I need to do so. Pouncing on a misspelled word or punctuation that leaves something to be desired does not sit well with me. Folks are here to communicate, not be critiqued. It is a pet peeve of mine. Thank you for your thoughtful answer and Happy Saturday to thee Alty :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 4th, 2012
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by Lazs Mouse on February 3rd, 2012
A language, like a culture, cannot exist without structure and generally accepted rules of behaviour; however, a society should be free to express itself within those boundaries. Hence, slang. Yo. Peace, dude.
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- How y'all doin' LM? Cooleroonio! Exactly. An internet social site is not a classroom, publishing firm nor work. So we can relax, kick back and let our hair down and not get into a hissy fit if a word is misspelled or misplaced or misused, right? Thank you for your answer and Happy Friday! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
- Oh I see... well id just like to stress, language reflects the orator, directly a pathway into one's psychy... which lies intellect, origin, belief, philosophy, morals/values, etc. Therefore, while language is free form in expression and should not be imposing upon proper English, why wouldn't an individual want to express their intellect? While it is just an unspoken law for some, language is already expected to be proper because that's the "proper" way of communication therefore any alteration seems foreign.. but free spirits and joyous individuals love expressing themselves in artistic fashion such as loosening up, extending or mispronouncing words, even I sometimes enjoy being playful and laughing at myself for instance saying "well jenny, judging by your symptoms, that are a cold" or when I'm proud of myself "o yè ay son!"
  
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  by InnerSanctioned on February 3rd, 2012
- Inner...run on sentences, lol...condense, be concise. Your answer is too convoluted for most to follow.
  
  Rosie...Doin' good for a ole fart, lol...On a social network site the occasional misspelling is acceptable, however misuse of a word is not; if one is not sure of the appropriate use of a word-"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"; one should respect one's language and culture, and strive to use the language to express the culture. Happy Friday to you as well, hugs!
  
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  by Lazs Mouse on February 3rd, 2012
- Seeing as though I know you not, I suggest you restrain yourself from eluding to irregularities on my behalf... understand that if one cannot understand the simplicity in my last post, including blatant misrepresentation of language then one should not attempt to correct any inconsistencies...now if you want I can simplify my last post but I warn you to mind your tongue
  Language is standardized and acceptable within certain context, societal expectations regard whether "stiff" or "looe" language is acceptable
  
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  by InnerSanctioned on February 3rd, 2012
- Oy vey..gefulte fish...gadzooks, egads, good golly miss molly, good grief charlie brown, mazel tov! Happy Saturday yo! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 4th, 2012
- LOL--might have to drag out my $5.00 vocabulary! Hugs all, and say whatever you want everhow you want to say it, we'll figure it out!
  
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  by Lazs Mouse on February 14th, 2012
- Perzackly my friend. We'll figger it out! Hope your Valentine's Day was splendid LM. Happy Wednesday! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 15th, 2012
- LOL, my Valentine's Day gift was the last day of annual inventory...plus the delicious supper waiting for me when I got home! Hope your Valentine's Day was the best ever, and happy weekend to you! Hugs!
  
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  by Lazs Mouse on February 18th, 2012
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by nest on February 3rd, 2012
Whatever is natural for the individual.
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- I think normal, natural is always best nest. Now of course guys use certain language in locker rooms that would not be proper on an internet social site. Excepting that, I agree with you. Thank you for your answer and Happy Friday! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
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by Bornabrit on February 3rd, 2012
I agree with nest..but i do like to have fun fun fun..:-)
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- If we can't have fun on AB what's the point? If we have to watch every word and make certain we spelled it correctly and be absolutely positive we used the exactly right word and be willing to swear on our child's life that we used the proper syntax well.. how much fun is that? Language police hover over everyone all the time 24/7..ready to pounce! Aarrgghh! :( Thank you for your answer B. and Happy Friday to thee! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
- it's not about spelling as to why mrs C left.
  there is a huge difference between appropirate and inappropriate
  nonsense questions/point hunting
  and actual fun.
  
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  by Shunyata on February 4th, 2012
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by InnerSanctioned on February 3rd, 2012
In certain professions and contexts of our lives some have to be much more extensive on annuciation and the implication of proper language, I believe the accepted standard is stiff English however, just like it has been, proper rules in certain contexts while lively rules in others, humans should speak how they please but understand the "proper" way to do things are mostly always the best
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- They're also stiff, formal and rather aloof IS. In my opinion. Thank you for your answer and Happy Friday. Now had I sad.."how y'all doin' darlin'?" that would have been quite improper..but kinda nice even so right? :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
- Ahh yes, I find nothing cuter than an accent affected language, in certain contexts that is, language is free form expression, some people take it much more serious than others.. but yes the way in which language is spoken is a seperate entity, improper English doesn't mean improper conduct
  
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  by InnerSanctioned on February 3rd, 2012
- Nor does it mean lack of intellect. In fact spelling and degree of intellect are unrelated. So when folks pounce hither and yon correcting spelling I am amused as well as annoyed at the nerve of them. :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 4th, 2012
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by canoeguide on February 3rd, 2012
Living languages change; "proper" is arbitrarily based on numerous abstractions, vague assumptions and the ever-changing cultural and societal needs of a people.
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- Thank you for your answer canoe and Happy Friday to you.
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
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by Marky Mark on February 3rd, 2012
I think on an informal site like AB we can relax the rules somewhat. It gives the dialogue a more "conversational feel". However, it might be worth remembering that Confucius say:

“If language is not correct, then what is said is not what is meant; if what is said is not what is meant, then what must be done remains undone; if this remains undone, morals and art will deteriorate; if justice goes astray, the people will stand about in helpless confusion. Hence there must be no arbitrariness in what is said. This matters above everything.”

So there we have it...

;~)
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- No wonder he is named Confucius. Circumlocution at its greatest Mark. Confusing is Confucius is confusing. An internet social site like AB should be a comfy place to hang out. We ought not have to watch out for the language police jumping on every errant word..misuse of same..or incorrect spelling. Are we here for language lessons or to communicate? That's all I'm saying or asking really. Thank you for your answer Mark and Happy Friday! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
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by Siyanor on February 3rd, 2012
It's not a question of "should." Languages DO have rules, and if you aren't following them, you're not speaking that language. Even language as a whole has specific rules. /k1a2/->[a2k1] is impossible in every natural language; *ONSET does not ever dominate LINEARITY; in fact, most would say *ONSET doesn't even exist. Some would say it theoretically could exist, but would be extremely low ranked in every natural language.

Beyond those rules, though, languages are extremely flexible to change. Even the rules can change, but when they do, you've made a new dialect.
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- Y'all doin' okey dokey dearie? So this offends you I trust then? There is nothing remotely 'proper' about it yet it pleases me enormously. Does it offend you? So be it. Thank you for your answer Siyanor and Happy Friday to you.
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
- I just hate it when people say "English doesn't really have rules, so I can say whatever I want." That simply isn't true. "dgablpa hykgmi" is not English and never will be. "ablab nimga" CAN be English, but isn't. The reason? English has rules.
  
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  by Siyanor on February 5th, 2012
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by gberbasada on February 3rd, 2012
The purpose of language is to accurately communicate thoughts, emotions etc. Before we rush off and start having fun with language we should learn it! Far too many people have limited communication skills..
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- And far too many have a limited (or absent) sense of play and humor. One can be both playful and precise in one's communication; this requires training, skill, ability and practice - as well as a sense of humor.
  
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  by canoeguide on February 3rd, 2012
- I was an English major. I love to play with words. I am quite well aware of how to use them properly, spell them properly and not confuse them with one another. However that is not much fun. It is stiff, formal and detached. You don't see anything of me in what I just wrote do you? That's my point. Stiff, formal, proper takes away all individuality completely. Thank you for your answer and Happy Friday to thee gb! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
- Bravo Rosie. I completely agree.
  
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  by Alty on February 3rd, 2012
- Both of you first mastered English; then decided to have fun with it ..... so whats your point?
  If you understood my comment you would agree with my position..... nothing personal... just my beliefs....
  btw, I am known for my comical interpretation of all that is sacredf.
  
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  by gberbasada on February 3rd, 2012
- You call it comical, I call it insulting. To each their own.
  
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  by Alty on February 3rd, 2012
- gb..you now assume I didn't understand your comment. That is an incorrect assumption and is a bit insulting. It implies that to disagree with you means we simply don't understand you. It comes off as arrogant. I'm sure that is not your intention but the hole you're digging keeps getting deeper. That can only mean that you don't understand my point. Setting all of that aside for the moment Happy Saturday to thee gb! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 4th, 2012
- you have proven again that your reading comprehension is limited....
  GOD MAY NOT WANT FOOLS IN HIS HEAVEN.........
  
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  by gberbasada on February 4th, 2012
- The cognitive disconnect in presuming to know - or even guess - the mind of a nonexistent entity is hilarious.
  
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  by canoeguide on February 4th, 2012
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by Shunyata on February 4th, 2012
there is a huge difference between

stiff/proper/rigid

and

fun/enjoy

and

inappropirate

IMO appropriate should rule. obviously some think it is " appropriate" to attack and to cuss, and to complain, and to whine, and to attack again and think nonsense is sense".

so maybe "what's appropriate and inappropriate" should be discussed.
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by More2Be on February 3rd, 2012
Educated and correct use of the language IS fun. It allows better social and income opportunities that what the ignorant cannot enjoy.
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- Thank you for your answer M2B and Happy Saturday to thee.
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 4th, 2012
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by pedal junky on February 3rd, 2012
I would prefer that proper language be used but as a rule it would hard to enforce.happy Friday 😃
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- Yes. Proper language is also stiff, formal and not very friendly. Thank you for your answer and Happy Friday to you pedal junky.
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
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by danielcboyer on February 3rd, 2012
I think it depends on the context...
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- Thank you for your answer daniel and Happy Friday! :)
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
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by Mister_Bromyde on February 3rd, 2012
Me not know.
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- Thank you for your response and Happy Friday.
  
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  by RosieGHM Jetpacker on February 3rd, 2012
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Should language be stiff/proper/rigid or ought we have fun with it/enjoy it/make it a lively reflection of ourselves? Should proper rule?

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Should language be stiff/proper/rigid or ought we have fun with it/enjoy it/make it a lively reflection of ourselves? Should proper rule?

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