Do you think the story of Cain and Abel really happened?

Comments

• So, then what is the teaching value of Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
  
  So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
  The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
  Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
  
  http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

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  by science_geek on June 19th, 2010

• We would do well to look a little deeper into the account before jumping to conclusion.
  
  Firstly we need to remember although God does not change, people do, the book of Judges covered a period between 1473 and 1120 BCE, at this time humans on the earth were very different creatures to what we see now, and they lived a very different lifestyle.
  
  With this in mind we need to understand the context and the account of what was taking place, the context describes the war waged against Benjamin by the other tribes because of Benjamin's extreme moral degradation, this also illustrates how Israel as a whole had kept itself from such corruption.
  
  The tribes showed great zeal for clean worship, but they had evidently relied on themselves in the first two attempts to punish Benjamin, and their action was not primarily motivated by interest in clearing reproach from Gods name. They were defeated in these battles, sustaining a loss of 40,000 men.
  Here, as throughout the accounts of the judges, the absolute need to rely wholly on Jehovah/Jahweh God is emphasized.
  
  At the end of Judges chapter 20, the account shows the unrighteous tribe of Benjamin was finally defeated with only 600 males escaping. (Judges 20:35-44).
  
  Judges chapter 21 opens with the other eleven tribes noticing that not a man of Ja'besh-gil'e-ad, which was an ancient town in the tribal territory of Gad, east of the Jordan, had participated in the retribution dealt out to the neighbouring tribe of Benjamin for its condoning of gross immorality. (Judges 21:8)
  
  It was therefore determined that every man, woman, and child of Ja'besh-gil'e-ad, with the exception of the virgins, should be put to death. The 400 virgins that were thus spared were then given as wives to the fugitive Benjamites so as to prevent extinction of the tribe. (Judges 20:1-21:14)
  
  Gods perfect holiness, firmness for what is right, coupled with mercy and long-suffering, these are the outstanding qualities of God that are demonstrated in the bible book of Judges.
  The chief lesson that is taught, is the fact that no success can come without wholehearted recognition and reliance on God.
  
  We would do well to heed the message it sends out, reliance on God is the only way forward, although many millions today pay no attention, to this and to all the other warnings within the bible, God word tells us his day of judgement on this generation draws near, how will we fare in relation to it ?.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 20th, 2010

• It is mythology. People have not changed significantly in the last 80,000 years or so. Culture has changed, and grown beyond any usefulness that the Bible may have ever had, what with the Bible being a collection of made up stories.

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  by science_geek on June 20th, 2010

• Lol, Even in my lifetime I have seen peoples attitude change, to say that they have not changed in 80,000 years as you put it, is quite honestly a ridiculous statement to make.
  
  I feel sorry for you, if you think the bible no longer serves a purpose in our day, when it is needed now more then ever before, even science has made discoverys saying we are degrading with every generation, but your attitude is no surprise.
  
  The very book you condemn tells of ones with this attitude in our day, and speaks of them as blind guides, and having a hardened heart, deceiving themselves to the truth of Gods word.
  
  Your very attitude is proof of the bibles wisdom, I am glad to see you have this attitude, as the more with it, the more convinced I become to it being the word of God.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 20th, 2010

• Attitudes and culture change. People are essentially the same as they were 80k years ago. You can certainly find anything you want to find in the Bible, because it is based in baseless beliefs.

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  by science_geek on June 20th, 2010

• AHHHHHHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHA......
  PRAISE BE TO GOD that you have said this about the book of Judges. for just as the enemy always takes the WORD of GOD to polute the minds of others, so GODS people follow after every WORD of GOD.
  .
  "IF" you would have continued reading this Bible you would have seen the next phrase..... GET READY its the BEST,,,,,,,, The verse that you left off is this.
  
  25 "In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit."
  .
  EVERYONE DID AS HE SAW FIT.... that is exactly right, they didnt do what GOD said to do, they didn't do the right thing. They did as they saw fit.
  Secondly they did not have a king,,,,, They physically didnt, and they spiritually didnt. They didnt have a king on earth to guide them correctly, but even more they didn't have a KING IN THEIR HEART (GOD) but rather they did what they saw fit.
  Thanks for bringing this up. The Bible many times shows stories that are of what people who are "BAD" and what they did so that we can see what not to do.
  They did not give mercy to those who had promised to go, they did not follow the rules, they coveted their neighbors wife and belongings, they lusted, and cheated and Murdered, and then they were kiniving and "HID" to steal some wives. but the next statement was "everyone did as he saw fit" no one asked GOD what he thought they should do....
  Thanks for bringing this up
  PRAISE GOD
  GOD Bless
  guardian

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  by guardian on October 19th, 2010

Comments

• Thanks Mr Josh.

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  by Zack on June 18th, 2010

Comments

• That's right he is not omniscient.
  predestinarianism is not in harmony with bible teaching.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 18th, 2010

• My thoughts exactly.

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  by Zack on June 18th, 2010

• Actually night crawler the bible openly states he is omniscient.
  .
  Psalm 147:4-5 and Acts 15:18 for starters but I have easily half a dozen more.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on June 18th, 2010

• Thank you for your reply CL,
  
  The scriptures you have sited may indeed show God has abundant power, beyond that of mere humans, but it makes no mention of God being "omniscient".
  
  The word is nowhere to be found in scripture, nor is it implied, but rather the scriptures show that it is not the case, and would be contradictory to Gods main attribute of Love.
  (1 John 4:8) "He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love".
  
  If able, please elaborate on what other scriptural evidence you feel you have, and where the word "omniscient" or "omniscience", is "openly stated" as you say, in the bible ?.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 18th, 2010

• Night your answer confuses me. "He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love". is entirely pointless to this conversation. The sentence shows that "He" not god, is not-all knowing. It says nothing about gods ability to be all knowing.
  .
  Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has NO LIMIT. - Limitless understanding, omniscience.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on June 18th, 2010

• You misunderstand, the fact God is love, shows he cannot be "omniscient" this is a contradiction to his love.
  You have quoted the same scripture Psalms 147:5 but as I said this makes no mention of God being "omniscient", you add the word yourself.
  
  Omniscient means to see all things, knowing everything all the time, this is something that is continual, the one who is "omniscient" has no choice but to see everything.
  
  Ps 147:5 says he has no limit, this is saying God has the power to do all things, but it does not indicate that God is not in control of this power and is able to, not see all things by choice.
  
  Am am not saying God does not have the power to see into the future when he chooses to, but that seeing into the future is only done when he requires.
  If "omniscient", it removes this choice from God, this is not a scriptural teaching.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 18th, 2010

• God is love is in what way a contradiction of god has omniscience?
  .
  Of course I add the word myself. The word hadn't been invented as of the writing of the bible. In fact the entomology of omniscience is from the middle Latin. But the bible openly uses the definition of omniscience. However even if god were able to turn this ability on and off at will, it's still an ability and therefore god still qualifies as omniscient.
  .
  I refer to Psalms because it's the clearest and most direct reference. I could show half a dozen quotes proving omniscience, but then you have to show the 3 or four supporting scriptures for each one, and that gets to be a lot more work than I'm willing to do.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on June 19th, 2010

• The claim is what you originally posted, if God is is fully aware of what all his creation would have had to go through the murder, rape, torture etc, this must have been inside God before making any creation, if this is the case, how could he also be love.
  
  The idea of "omniscience" is that one is all knowing, all the time, if this ability was able to be only used at times required, I think you would find it would no longer be able to be applied, and the one would not be classed as "omniscient".
  
  Really what you have left is exactly what the bible describes, a God with great power that cannot be matched, Justice, wisdom and love that is all encompassing.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 19th, 2010

• Night I still find that calling god omniscient is perfectly plausible.
  .
  As for god being an all encompassing justice wisdom and love? Either you've never read the bible or you never bothered to look beyond the apologists. God orders womens wombs to be ripped open and their children dashed upon the rocks. There's no wisdom, justice, or love in that my friend.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on June 19th, 2010

• Believing God to be "omniscient" would be up to you at the moment, but this human word, and the way it is widely understood by humans does not describe the truth found in the bible about God, and would not be pleasing to him.
  
  The accounts you mention as proof of God having no wisdom, justice and love, not only are completely wrong in their conclusion, but show the opposite, they are proof of these qualities in God, and also be a stark warning for those that refuse to listen to his real message and righteous ways.
  
  The scripture in Hosea you are referring to is about the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V, who laid siege to the city of Samaria in 742 B.C.E.
  
  Samaria was the capital city of the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel, but the inhabitants of did not walk in Gods righteous ways. Consequently, they would have to pay a price for their sin and lack of faith in God.
  It was foretold, "Samaria will be held guilty, for she is actually rebellious against her God. By the sword they will fall. Their own children will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women themselves will be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)
  
  Historical records show that the Assyrian's, who conquered Samaria, were capable of such dreadful atrocities.
  
  It was due to the unrighteous attitude of people of Samaria, and it was the human Assyrian's that did the act in this way, God was able to see this would happen due to their error, and just foretold their end correctly, truthfully, showing his wisdom, justice, and love.
  
  And how fitting that the prophet Hosea himself ends with the conclusion that compares all unrighteous humans that think they are wise to the wisdom of God.
  
  (Hosea 14:9) "Who is wise, that he may understand these things? Discreet, that he may know them? For the ways of Jehovah are upright, and the righteous are the ones who will walk in them; but the transgressors are the ones who will stumble in them."
  
  Gods love allows any who once misunderstood him, and who have started to realise they were wrong and change to be forgiven, and to gain untold benefits now and in the future, please think hard about who God really is and how coming to a deeper understanding of him will bring benefit to you.
  
  Please to do not take this as sarcasm or some kind of attack, it is meant sincerely.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 20th, 2010

• And how do you defend Deuteronomy 17:12, Exodus 22:17, Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 20:27, Exodus 21:15, Proverbs 20:20, Leviticus 20:9-10, Leviticus 21:9, Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13, Zechariah 13:3, and there are more. But here's one I'd like truly like to see you explain.
  .
  Deuteronomy 13:1-3 and 5. My problem is with the last line in 3(god is testing you), and 5.
  .
  I'm sorry, I've read the bible. God commits moral crimes against man, I can not believe any god willing to do that can be loving, or just, or moral. There are too many instances where there's no explanation possible. The great flood, what did the children of all the pregnant women do to deserve to die? Sorry, no dice.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on June 20th, 2010

• I used to be like this, looking at things negatively, but this attitude just was not getting me anywhere personally.
  
  I guess it's just down to the individual, every scripture you site with an objection, I see completely differently, I could explain each one, but I get the feeling an explanation is not what you are looking for.
  
  If someone has made there mind up, its already over :(

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 20th, 2010

• Night I was like you once, I saw only good and happiness. Then I actually read the bible with a critical eye. If someone has made there mind up, its already over, I agree but which one of us is being closed minded?

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on June 20th, 2010

• I know there are a lot of people that blindly follow what the bible says, not really knowing, or maybe choosing not to look at these sort of scriptures you have sited, do what they are told by there priest and never question, I have seen many like this, they maybe closed minded, you are right.
  
  But not all people do this, there are some that have studied the bible over many years looking for fault, not just one translation but many and in depth, when this is done correctly and then compared to other ideas, personally find other ideas lacking, and falling short of being able to explain all things.
  
  One thing to note, most who believe in science tend to just ignore, something had to have no beginning, when science can explain that, I think they may have more converts, but they never will.
  
  A more inteligent life form is the only answer, so yes, ignoring something and not having an explanation, this to is being closed minded.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 21st, 2010

• Ignoring and not knowing are not the same thing. If you want to claim that everything has to have a beginning then why doesn't religion explain gods beginning? Same fundamental flaw.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on June 21st, 2010

• Yes but with science there is no explanation, with creation the explanation is higher intelligence, so at least it has one, however implausible it may be to some.
  
  Having an explanation will always be better than just not knowing, and the fact remains the very idea of something without a beginning seems beyond man's capability to understand which everybody would have to agree, points to higher intelligence.
  
  Considering all what we know, this would seem the most likely and until science can prove otherwise, it is the logical belief to hold to.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on June 21st, 2010

• "Having an explanation will always be better than just not knowing"
  .
  Totally untrue. Having a wrong answer that is believed by people as the right answer, is worse than having no answer at all.
  .
  You also have entirely missed my argument about gods existence.
  .
  If man is too complex to be natural, then god is far too complex to be natural. Then who designed the designer. Eventually you have the ultimate designer, but still no explanation of where that creator is from. Claiming god did it only pushes the question back a step, how was god created?

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on June 21st, 2010

• Just because someone has the master key it dose not mean that they have to use it...

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  by Bizzibee on October 18th, 2010

• So with omniscience and GOD, I would like to tell a story.
  A man and woman have a child, They also have a stove. They know that one day their child will put their hand on the hot stove. This however does not make them get rid of the hot stove, because the stove is needed for other things, Thus they make a law. "DONT TOUCH THE STOVE OR YOU WILL GET BURNED". They still worry that their child will touch the hot stove but they want to give their child the responsibility to choose not to touch the hot stove. However if the child touches the hot stove then the parent is there to tell them that they did wrong but that we can fix it by healing the burn.
  So can GOD know what is going to happen to his creation before he creates it and yet create it with complete choice... I believe YES. I believe this is why we see in the WORD of GOD, that we see that "Through Christ all things were made" and this is why Christ could know and not know what was going to happen. That he could allow himself to be obidient unto death, and let GOD DIE, and yet live again, by his own power and authority.
  GOD LOVES ALL MANKIND but he does not want to be worshiped by robots or puppets, he wants us because we want to be a part of HIS life, to choose him, and those who don't want to be part of HIS life, he made a place that has nothing to do with HIM. It must pain GOD greatly for those who don't want HIM, but it must make HIM so excited to give free will to choose HIM and we do....
  GOD Bless
  guardain

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  by guardian on October 18th, 2010

• Sorry CL, missed your last comment, thanks Bizzibee & guardian for commenting and bringing this to my attention :)
  
  “Having a wrong answer that is believed by people as the right answer, is worse than having no answer at all.”
  
  I do not agree with that, but in reality this is not what the case is anyway, who says it's the wrong answer ?, logic points to there being a higher power, I will stick we logic.
  
  The point is, man's science is lacking and cannot solve the basic questions we all have, this is simply because science is to closed minded and proud to grasp the obvious, the answer lies beyond what we currently understand, or a higher power.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 18th, 2010

• Guardin congratulations on entirely missing the point.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on October 18th, 2010

• I do not agree with that, but in reality this is not what the case is anyway, who says it's the wrong answer ?, logic points to there being a higher power, I will stick we logic.
  
  Logic points in the OPPOSITE direction of a god. Logic dictates that an amazingly complex and powerful entity like god can not just magically pop into existence. Therefore god had to have either been designed, or evolved. Both of which return us to the original question. How was the universe(or the universe god lives in) created?
  
  "The point is, man's science is lacking and cannot solve the basic questions we all have,"
  
  Untrue. It just doesn't give us the answer we want, so we in our arrogance assume there must be more. We must be special in some way. When you get right down to it, Abrahamic religion really is a huge Ego trip. All of this was created for us, and if we're good we'll live forever?
  
  "this is simply because science is to closed minded and proud to grasp the obvious,"
  
  Once again entirely false. Science functions only when people are open minded. The greatest discoveries have been made by people who simply opened their eyes and truly saw the world for what it is.
  
  "the answer lies beyond what we currently understand, or a higher power."
  
  That is an appeal to ignorance. We don't know so it must be a higher power? BS. How about the far more realistic answer, "We don't know...yet!"

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on October 18th, 2010

• What you are doing is using man's understanding again to come to your conclusions, God being designed or evolving, this is a typical view of one who has restricted his thought process to looking at things from a human view only.
  
  “Science functions only when people are open minded”
  
  lol, Science would function a lot better and those involved would be more honest with their results if they were open minded, the truth unfortunately does not match this view.
  
  Science has a hidden agenda just like politicians do, the truth is, you only get to see what they want you to ;)
  
  “We don't know so it must be a higher power?”
  
  Who said that ?, it's not about what we don't know, it's what we do know, when we look at the whole picture without a predetermined outlook, and not just at what science and it's backers want people to believe, we will see clearly that belief in a higher power is the most logical explanation.
  
  “How about the far more realistic answer, "We don't know...yet!"
  
  Or in other words, lets take the path that's easy, keep our heads in the sand and just say “we don't know yet!” yes many are doing that alright.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 18th, 2010

• Ok I'm done conversing with someone as warped as you.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on October 18th, 2010

• Going back to your comment, that I missed the point. The point was can GOD have omniscience omnipotent and so forth and yet still create creatures that he knows or believes will choose something bad.
  Thus the answer is YES.
  thus the story can someone know what is going to happen and still give that ability to choose if I will or wont, and if so am I still loving them??? if I do?????
  .
  See I could strap a child to a potty seat, and feed them and let them go to the bathroom and give them a sponge bath every day. If I do this then they will not get hurt or pushed down by bullies or put something in their mouth that will harm them, they will not touch the hot stove.... GOD could have also done that. He could have stopped Cain and Able from attacking each other. He could have stopped Adam and Eve from eating the fruit. He could have stopped a whole lot of things by using his Omnipotence to go down and smack their hands and tell them to play nice or HE will put them in the corner... However, He would rather us show that we WANT to do the right thing and that we can do the right thing, Thus why HE does not allow HIS Omnipotence and Omniscinece to out do HIS love for us to have that free choice.
  GOT IT
  GOD Bless
  guardain

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  by guardian on October 19th, 2010

• Guardian you missed the idea entirely. Omniscience negates Omnipotence and free will.
  
  God knows for 100% certainty that I'll have cereal for breakfast on Wednesday. Therefore on Wednesday I have no choice but to have cereal, because god can't be wrong. I have no free will to change my mind to eggs.
  
  God also can not be all knowing and all powerful. Take the exact same Wednesday morning. God knows I'm going to have cereal. Now god can't change what I'm going to have or he'll violate his Omniscience. So then god is either limited in power or in knowledge.
  
  God can not be all knowing, and all powerful. Humanity can not have free will if god is all knowing, nor does free will have any meaning if god has Omnipotence. the men that created your god, were very smart and wise for their time, but just like all human constructions they break down as our understanding grows.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on October 19th, 2010

• Preknowledge and predistination are not the same thing. Omniscience and omnipresence are not the same thing. If linearity of time were true then yes. but we do not have a linear timeline.
  If i throw a marble up in the air, I KNOW that it is going to come down in a second. I know that it is going to hit the ground. I know it for a fact. I may still intervene and catch the marble, even though I know it was going to fall to the ground. So my preknowledge allowed me to change the destination.
  If I put a piece of candy and a piece of liver in front of a baby 3 years old. the child will choose the piece of candy. I know it, I know it, I know it, but yet I still did not take away their free will.

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  by guardian on October 20th, 2010

• Sorry Guys, I havent read all the replies here. But at first glance i can assist.
  
  the scripture that proves He is Omniscient is Isaiah 46:10-11
  
  Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from of old that which has not yet been done, saying, ‘My counsel does stand, and all My delight I do,’
  Isa 46:11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a distant land. Indeed I have spoken it, I also bring it to pass. I have planned it, I also do it
  
  
  you cant declare the end from the beginning, if you're not Omniscient.

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  by IvanN on October 20th, 2010

• Sorry IvanN, but yes you can.
  
  Omniscient means “One having total knowledge” knowing everything, even though God could if he wanted know everything, this does not mean he does choose to, he is in total control of his power and knowledge, and is able to use or not use it at his discretion.
  
  You can tell the end from the beginning with a specific and still not have “total knowledge” out of choice.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 20th, 2010

• CL - "God knows for 100% certainty that I'll have cereal for breakfast on Wednesday. Therefore on Wednesday I have no choice but to have cereal, because god can't be wrong. I have no free will to change my mind to eggs. "
  
  I think you have misunderstood the meaning of Omnipotence.
  
  Yahuah is able to do anything, He created the Heavens and the Earth by speaking it into existence.
  
  Therefore he is Omnipotnent.
  
  He declared the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10), therefore he is Omniscient.
  
  They do not conflict eachother, unless you feel that he needed to take your free will and thus break the meaning of Omnipotent (A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature).
  
  By taking Mans free will, he goes against Love by forcing us to do as he pleases. That is not Love and by the very nature of Omnipotence, Yahuah is obedient to Love.
  
  Lets look at the story of Cain and Abel.
  
  
  Qayin (Cain) was a tiller of the ground. - Ground = earth. Qayin was a wicked man, led a bad life, under the reigning power of the world and the flesh; and therefore his sacrifice was an abomination to Yahuah (Pro_15:8),
  
  Gen 4:3 And it came to be, in the course of time, that Qayin brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to יהוה.
  
  Hebel (Abel) was a keeper of sheep. Hebel was a righteous man; he is called righteous Habel (Mat_23:35); his heart was upright and his life was pious; he was one of those whom YHWH's countenance beholds (Psa_11:7) and whose prayer is therefore his delight, Pro_15:8. God had respect to him as a holy man, and therefore to his offering as a holy offering. The tree must be good, else the fruit cannot be pleasing to the heart-searching Yahuah.
  
  The great difference was this, that Hebel offered in faith, and Qayin did not. There was a difference in the principle upon which they went. Hebel offered with an eye to Yahuah's will as his rule, and Yahuah's glory as his end, and in dependence upon the promise of a Redeemer; but Qayin did what he did only for company's sake, or to save his credit, not in faith, and so it turned into sin to him.
  
  Gen 4:7 “If you do well, is there not acceptance? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should master it.
  
  Why would Yahuah have been telling him about his Sin, if he knew what he was going to do ?
  
  Because he showed him what Sin was. He gave him the choice to choose a course of Good or Evil.
  
  Joh 9:41 יהושע said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin, but now you say, ‘We see,’ therefore your sin remains.
  
  Likewise, Qayin was fully aware of what sin was, when he killed his brother because of the Omniscience of Yahuah.
  
  After Qayin had killed Hebel, Yahuah asks him where his brother is, not because he does not know, but rather he was offering him a chance to repent for his sin. But Qayin adds the sin of Lying, on top of the sin or murder and Yahuah punishes him.
  
  Is 'God' Omniscient, yes.
  
  Is 'God' immoral, No. He demonstrates his morals by giving Qayin free choice, and even the chance to repent.
  
  It is much the same today, we do not make offerings to Yahuah in faith, with an eye to Yahuah's will as our rule, and Yahuah's glory as our end, and in dependence upon the promise of our Redeemer; No. We have alterior motive and Yahuah knows.
  
  Repent for the time of Yahushua is near.
  
  Luk 13:3 “I say to you, no! But unless you repent you shall all perish in the same way.
  
  So CL, in going back to your statement about eggs.
  
  I think its more accurate to say, He knew you would pick eggs - That does not mean you could only have picked eggs, if you had picked Fruit he would have known that beforehand too.

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  by IvanN on October 20th, 2010

• Nightcrawler, Name 1 thing that Yahuah does not know, or chooses to not know ?
  
  There is no scripture that supports this view.
  
  Mat 9:4 And יהושע, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think wicked thoughts in your hearts?
  
  If we have to think about anything that Yahuah does not know....
  
  1. He does not know anyone that has sinned (Rom 3:10)
  2. He does not know anyone that he does not love (Rom 5:8)
  
  That is all.

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  by IvanN on October 20th, 2010

• "Yahuah is able to do anything, He created the Heavens and the Earth by speaking it into existence.
  
  Therefore he is Omnipotnent."
  
  No he is not Omnipotent. You can not be Omnipotent and Omniscient. The concepts are mutually exclusive. Back to the breakfast example.
  
  God says I'll eat eggs for breakfast, since he can not be wrong, I MUST have eggs. My ability to change my mind is therefore illusionary. Free will can not exist where omniscience exists.
  
  Now onto Omnipotence. God has proclaimed I will have eggs for breakfast. God can either change my breakfast to fruit, in which case god can be wrong and is not omniscient, OR god can not change my breakfast and is therefore not omnipotent.
  
  "I think its more accurate to say, He knew you would pick eggs - That does not mean you could only have picked eggs, if you had picked Fruit he would have known that beforehand too."
  
  That's very true, but what you don't answer is no matter what my choice is, the other options are automatically denied me, by gods foreknowledge. If god knows I'll have eggs(even if it's a choice), then fruit is denied me. If I have no options, then I have no free will.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on October 20th, 2010

• One thing that Jesus did not know but GOD the father knows is this.
  Mark 13:32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.
  This to me is very important.
  John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
  3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
  .
  Thus Jesus made the Universe from the power of the father, thus just as Christ could decide not to know when the end will come, he could also choose to not know what would happen in the future of "mankind"(to use such a simple word). Thus being able to allow free will and at the same time still having all the power of HIMSELF. (3 in 1 and 1 in 3)
  
  a second part to GOD knowing or letting choice prevail.
  Isiah 1:9 If the Lord of Heaven’s Armies
  had not spared a few of us,[c]
  we would have been wiped out like Sodom,
  destroyed like Gomorrah.
  .
  read that carefully the word that is important is "IF" this implies that their are two things that could have happened. their are many IFS in the Bible. So looking at that GOD knew IF he did this, then something would happen, but IF he did that then something else would happen. thus giving a "tree branch effect" to time. and since we have MANY MANY things that we could do at every moment of time. It is more like GOD knows every outcome from an infinite amount of CHOICES that you and I can combine together.
  GOD Bless
  guardian

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  by guardian on October 20th, 2010

• @ IvanN
  
  “Yahuah is able to do anything, He created the Heavens and the Earth by speaking it into existence. Therefore he is Omnipotnent.”
  
  Jehovah created the heavens and the earth, therefore he is “vigorous in power” (Is 40:26), that is correct, yet this is not an example of omnipotence, just that he has great power.
  
  “Yahuah is able to do anything”
  
  For that statement to be correct, Jehovah should therefore be able to do wrong, be bad, and commit sin, and be able to make mistakes, yet I do not think this is the case.
  
  Being “omnipotent” means having unlimited power, Jehovah chooses to put his own restrictions on his power therefore by his own choice he is not omnipotent.
  
  His self imposed restrictions come mainly from the fact that “God is love” (1Jo 4:8), he could have used his power to destroy all creation and start again when Adam sinned, yet that would not be loving, and is why he would never use his power in this way, hence his love restricts his unlimited power from being used, and therefore for practical purposes he does not have unlimited power, for to do so would mean he was unloving.
  
  
  “He declared the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10), therefore he is Omniscient.”
  
  The fact he can declare the end from the beginning does not show Jehovah is “omniscient”, it only shows he has the power to look into the future when he chooses to.
  
  Omniscient means having unlimited knowledge, there are many things that Jehovah was not aware of out of choice, as he knows this would interfere with the freewill of his creation, he only uses this ability when needed out of love for his creation.
  
  As an example did Jehovah know his son Jesus would remain faithful to death ?, if he did satan would have been fully aware of this, so why did satan try to tempt Jesus as this would have been without any point ?.
  
  After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” why did he say this ? (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1)
  
  God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.” why did he say this if he already knew the outcome ? (Ge 18:19; 22:11, 12) compare (Ne 9:7, 8; Ga 4:9)

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 20th, 2010

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  by guardian on October 21st, 2010

• nightcrawler0_2
  
  Yahuah is able to do anything”
  
  For that statement to be correct, Jehovah should therefore be able to do wrong, be bad, and commit sin, and be able to make mistakes, yet I do not think this is the case.
  
  How can we debate if its possible for Yahuah to be bad, if we cannot define what his version of bad is.
  
  eg - When he ordered the killing of women and children, in our eyes thats bad and goes against his own law.
  
  But what if those women and childrens lives would have lead to the painful death of millions of others, is their killing still bad ?
  
  We cant define omniscience, because we are not it.
  
  You all make very good statements, my opinion is that Yahuah does know everything that is to come. He declared the end from the start and surely then knows every detail in between.
  
  As for morals, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
  
  Good debate guys but i think it has reached an endpoint.
  
  Id like to talk about another topic and will post a question in the next few minutes.
  
  Ivan
  
  
  
  The argument that divine foreknowledge is not compatible with free will is known as theological fatalism

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  by IvanN on October 21st, 2010

• When I use the word bad, it is from God's standpoint, from the correct understanding, any death at Jehovah's hand is not bad, it only appears that way to those without spiritual understanding.
  
  So the question remains how can this statement be correct ? “Yahuah is able to do anything”
  
  Could “Yahuah put a righteous human who has done his utmost in view of his imperfect condition to eternal death, from which there is no return ?, no, as this would also be unloving.
  
  Could “Yahuah” after his son Jesus gave his sacrificial life for all of mankind's benefit have not resurrected him back to life as a spirit ?, no, as this would have been unloving.
  
  Because of the fact that “God IS love” (1Jo 4:8), this would stop himself from being able to do anything.
  A loving God can only do what is the most loving thing to do, “Yahuah” cannot be unloving in his own eyes and by his own righteous standards.
  
  He limits himself out of love and therefore cannot be in the true sense "omniscient" as he does not have unlimited knowledge, and is not "omnipotent" as he does not have unlimited power, his knowledge and power have self imposed restrictions (De 32:4)
  
  
  “We cant define omniscience, because we are not it”
  
  If we cannot define it, how can we claim God is it ?
  
  
  “The argument that divine foreknowledge is not compatible with free will is known as theological fatalism”
  
  After a quick look into what is commonly understood as “fatalism” they appear to dissagree with your statement;
  
  Dictionary definition – Fatalism: “The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable”
  
  Website definition - Fatalism: “The belief that "what will be will be," since all past, present, and future events have already been predetermined by God or another all-powerful force. In religion, this view may be called predestination.”
  
  The idea of “theological fatalism” is not a scriptural concept, God does not predetermine outcomes and allows his creation freewill to choose there own outcome, while looking to the future only when required for the benefit of his creation due to his love for them and him being love (Ga 6:7; Jer 25:5-6).

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 21st, 2010

• did anyone read mine above.... I will rewrite it here. Please listen to it and think on it for a second.
  .
  One thing that Jesus did not know but GOD the father knows is this.
  Mark 13:32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.
  This to me is very important.
  John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
  3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
  .
  Thus Jesus made the Universe from the power of the father, thus just as Christ could decide not to know when the end will come, he could also choose to not know what would happen in the future of "mankind"(to use such a simple word). Thus being able to allow free will and at the same time still having all the power of HIMSELF. (3 in 1 and 1 in 3)
  
  a second part to GOD knowing or letting choice prevail.
  Isiah 1:9 If the Lord of Heaven’s Armies
  had not spared a few of us,[c]
  we would have been wiped out like Sodom,
  destroyed like Gomorrah.
  .
  read that carefully the word that is important is "IF" this implies that their are two things that could have happened. their are many IFS in the Bible. So looking at that GOD knew IF he did this, then something would happen, but IF he did that then something else would happen. thus giving a "tree branch effect" to time. and since we have MANY MANY things that we could do at every moment of time. It is more like GOD knows every outcome from an infinite amount of CHOICES that you and I can combine together.
  GOD Bless
  guardian

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  by guardian on October 21st, 2010

• I did read it guardian, yes Mk 13:32 and Mt 24:36 both highlight that the son Jesus was not privy to this information yet his Father Jehovah was, this is one of the many occurrences that show Jesus is a separate being to his Father and only Almighty God holds the knowledge of when his day will arrive.
  
  1Jo 1:3 indeed does say “all things came into existence through him” (Jesus), Col 1:16 also says “by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth”, thus Jesus was there from the beginning of earth's creation, and Jehovah's power as creator was used through Jesus to make all things.
  
  I do not think it was Jesus' decision not to have the information regarding the day, rather his Fathers as Jesus showed he was subordinate to him and this was something that only his Father alone needed to carry, as supreme judge over all creation.
  
  I agree as far as humans are concerned nothing is predictable, we do have free will and and all can make decisions that can change the course of our life, which is why are decisions should be made carefully and always in line with scripture.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 21st, 2010

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 21st, 2010

• Agree Nightcrawler0_2, and thanks for clearing that up. It is true that Omniscience only allows Yahuah to do what He does, and I agree because I believe that He does not have evil intent in Him, nor can he act in an unloving manner.
  
  As for Jesus not knowing the day or the hour, This would be because Jesus was not God, Jesus said himself Only the Father is good. He had Gods authority on earth, but he was not himself God.
  
  I could be wrong as Im answering now without any research. But thanks for your views.

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  by IvanN on October 25th, 2010

• I strongly Believe in the Trinity,John 14:6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
  8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?
  
  If Jesus was not GOD then Jesus is either an angel or a human or something else. But rather than get onto a Trinity discussion or not (which is a whole other bag of worms) lets stay on this one.
  .
  .
  I completely agree that Omniscience and the other attributes of GOD are HIS to do with as HE pleases. Just as I can get into a fight with a little kid and Purpose to put my hands behind my back and "LET" him beat the snot out of me. I have at any time the ability to bring out my hands and stop him. IT IS MY ABILITY, NOT MY ABSOLUTE, I DONT "HAVE TO".
  things I can do to stop my abilities.
  I can put my hands behind my back and "NOT" catch a ball.
  I can put my fingers in my ears to not hear what someone else is sayint.
  I can Hold my breath.
  I can close my eyes or keep them open or blink faster.
  I can Hold my nose closed and not smell.
  I can decide NOT to eat, thus not tasting.
  .
  Thus having arms or a nose or hearing, does not conitate that I MUST "do" simply because I have them.
  GOD Bless
  guardian

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  by guardian on October 25th, 2010

• @ IvanN
  
  I agree, Jesus is a god not Almighty God, if we look at what all scripture actually says regarding Jesus with are minds open, his position is clear, he is fulfilling a role that is needed due to are imperfect condition, not only giving up his human life for are benefit, but also as mediator between Almighty God, Jehovah and sinful humankind.
  
  His heavenly role is only temporary, as king of Gods kingdom along with all those who join him, he will bring about mankind's transformation back to perfection, at which point he will hand his kingship back to where it rightfully belongs and then Jehovah will “be all things to everyone”.
  
  (1 Corinthians 15:23-28) “But each one in his own rank: Christ the first fruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
  Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.
  For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.
  For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.
  But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 25th, 2010

• @ guardian
  
  As Jesus had lived for possibly millions of years as a spirit creature before coming to earth as a human, and all this time was spent in the close presence of Jehovah God, like anyone who's intent was good, this would have had the effect of making Jesus very similar in how he thought and acted to Almighty God, he is a mirror of what God is, so in this sense Jesus said;
  
  Jo 14:7-10 “If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him.
  Jesus said to him: “Have I been with you men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
  Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works.”
  
  Jesus knew that because of the length of time he had spent in such close proximity to his Father Jehovah, he knew that anyone that knew him would know his Father also, they were in total agreement on all things.
  
  This is why he calls Jehovah his Father, just as we do, he is no equal but a creation just as we are, the difference being we are human not spirit, we are sinful he is not, we have very limited knowledge and access to Jehovah, he has spent a very long time in close association with him.
  
  Almighty God called Jesus his son;
  (Matthew 3:17) “Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
  
  
  Christ himself also confirmed it a number of times;
  (John 10:36) “do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?”
  (John 8:18) “I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”
  
  
  The apostle Peter (Simon) said it;
  (Matthew 16:15-16) “He said to them: “you, though, who do you say I am?” In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
  
  
  John the baptiser said it;
  (John 1:34) “And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.”
  
  
  The apostle Paul (Saul) said it;
  (Acts 9:20) “and immediately in the synagogues he began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.”
  
  
  Nathanael said it;
  (John 1:49) “Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.””
  
  
  Martha said it;
  (John 11:27) “She said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God, the One coming into the world.””
  
  
  The army officer said it;
  (Matthew 27:54) “But the army officer and those with him watching over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.””
  
  
  Even the demons said it;
  (Matthew 8:29) “And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?””
  
  Jesus is undoubtedly the son of God, his first creation a spirit angel, the only archangel or chief angel, and who through all things were made, he at no time said he was equal to Jehovah, but continually showed and even said the Father was greater then he was;
  
  (John 14:28) “You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.”

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 25th, 2010

• I am absolutely sure that we disagree on this point, however lets get back to the topic of Omnipotence of GOD.
  We can gladly talk about the Trinity at some other junction. but lets save it until that board.
  Thanks
  GOD Bless
  guardian

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  by guardian on October 26th, 2010

• OK, no probs guardian :)

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 26th, 2010

• Their is more to a story
  than meets the......
  
  THE GOOD ALWAYS ALWAYS WINS!!!!!!

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  by Traveltheuniverse on February 21st, 2011

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• Thanks iandme.

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  by Zack on June 18th, 2010

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• Thank you Gina.

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  by Zack on June 18th, 2010

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• Thank you Rei de jinn.

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  by Zack on June 18th, 2010

• Welcome.

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  by Barrat per negòci on June 18th, 2010

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• If you really believe that, aren't you afraid of not being Christian anymore?
  If I believed that, I would be.

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  by killdrphil - reasonable for a madman on December 16th, 2010

• No, 'cause I sin.

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  by AnonymousGirl on December 17th, 2010

• Boy do you ever...just kidding.

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  by killdrphil - reasonable for a madman on December 17th, 2010

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• Here you are babe: http://www.dltk-bible.com/genesis/chapter4-cv1.htm

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  by Zack on June 18th, 2010

• I'am not `Abel` to answer this at the moment Zack....`Cain` you ask me again later.....hehe.....it's religious stuff by the look at it .....and my mum said i'am not allowed to look at it...one must always have a free mind and never let it be programmed by others that don't......

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  by nice jugs on October 17th, 2010

• Ditto!!!

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  by Zack on October 17th, 2010

• lol, if only.

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on October 20th, 2010

• soooo... you're letting your mum program you instead? Interesting.

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  by LarryH54 on February 17th, 2011

• Mums are allway right ...and my one would never program er little Minx.....

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  by nice jugs on February 18th, 2011

• Katherine Knight, or “Kathy The Cannibal” was a mother of four.
  Elizabeth Bathory, or “the blood countess” was a mother of six.
  Mary Ann Cotton, was a mother of nine.
  And don't forget Marybeth Tinning, also a mother of nine.
  
  Mums are definitely not always right, so double check you're programming while you still can ;)

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  by nightcrawler0_2 on February 18th, 2011

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• Thanks hallagan.

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  by Zack on June 18th, 2010

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• Where did this account come from?

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  by LarryH54 on February 17th, 2011

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