ARMAGEDDON is shrouded in mystery and misconceptions. Ideas as to its meaning abound. The word Armageddon, though, is derived from Har–Magedon, or Mountain of Megiddo. It is a Bible word found at Revelation 16:16, which states: “And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har–Magedon [or, Armageddon].”
Who are gathered to Armageddon and why? Revelation 16:14 answers: “The kings of the entire inhabited earth” muster “to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”
Those answers raise a host of other questions. With whom do “the kings” battle, and over what issue? Where will they fight? Will they use nuclear weapons? Can the war be prevented? Really, what is Armageddon?
Not a Geographic Spot
Armageddon could not be a geographic location. No mountain by that name actually exists—though a mound called Megiddo remains to this day. The real meaning of Armageddon casts its shadow back in history to warfare that centered in that area of Megiddo.
Megiddo has been the site of some of the most fierce and decisive battles in Middle Eastern history. It all began during the second millennium B.C.E. with Egyptian ruler Thutmose III’s smashing victory over Palestinian and Syrian rulers, and stretched through the centuries to the year 1918 when British field marshal Viscount Allenby inflicted a stinging defeat on the Turks.
But more important to Bible students, Megiddo witnessed the magnificent victory of the Israelite forces under the command of Judge Barak over King Jabin’s mighty Canaanite army led by war chief Sisera. Jehovah God intervened and provided the Israelites with a resounding triumph.—Judges 4:7, 12-16, 23; 5:19-21.
Therefore, Armageddon begins to take the form of a crucial battle, with only one clear victor.
Not a War Between Earthly Nations
The issue surrounding the battle of Armageddon—world rulership—is the great issue of today. But, although two opposing superpowers are now grappling for world domination, Armageddon will not be a world war, pitting one of these against the other. True, the world is in the most expensive and frenzied arms race in all history, prompting this comment from India Today: “All this is pushing the planet grimly to the edge of Armageddon—the ultimate war among nations.” But Revelation 16:14 indicates that “the kings of the entire inhabited earth” mobilize a united front at “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”
Therefore, Armageddon is not man’s war. It is God’s war. Armageddon will find all earthly nations united in battling ‘the armies of heaven’ under the military command of the “King of kings and Lord of lords,” Christ Jesus. He is the rightful ruler of the world because God also “subjected all things under his [Christ’s] feet.”—Revelation 19:14, 16; Ephesians 1:22.
Not a Nuclear Holocaust
For many people, nuclear war is too chilling to think about. A 1983 joint study by 40 scientists estimates that in an all-out nuclear war one third to one half of the total world population would suffer immediate death. Their report, published in Science magazine, predicts a grim future for the survivors. It warns: “In any large-scale nuclear exchange between the superpowers, global environmental changes sufficient to cause the extinction of a major fraction of the plant and animal species on the Earth are likely. In that event, the possibility of the extinction of Homo sapiens cannot be excluded.”
Would Almighty God Jehovah allow such a horror? No! He did not create the earth “simply for nothing,” but as he reassures us, he “formed it even to be inhabited.” (Isaiah 45:18) At Armageddon God will “bring to ruin those ruining the earth,” not scorch it in a nuclear holocaust.—Revelation 11:18.
Not a Continuous Battle Between Good and Evil
Some religious leaders believe Armageddon to be a running struggle between the forces of good and evil, whether worldwide or in the mind. “Armageddon is occurring in some part of the world every day,” notes one Bible commentary. How could this be when the Bible promises that Armageddon will bring swift doom for all evil nations and people? Christ, as God’s anointed King at Armageddon, “will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter’s vessel [he] will dash them to pieces.”—Psalm 2:9; see also Proverbs 2:21, 22; Revelation 19:11-21.
Not a World Economic Collapse
The world’s most powerful governments fear that a Third World default on debt would propel the global economic situation into what Business Life magazine calls an “Economic Armageddon.” A collapse of the world’s banking institutions would truly be tragic, but it would not be Armageddon. The Bible Armageddon is a worldwide situation involving war, not economics. The prophet Jeremiah describes it in these graphic terms: “There is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations. He must personally put himself in judgment with all flesh. As regards the wicked ones, he must give them to the sword.”—Jeremiah 25:31.
Not a War in the Middle East
“Somewhere in time, the last conflagration will take place in the Middle East,” preaches world-renowned evangelist Billy Graham. On this matter, he echoes the views of many of his religious colleagues. Graham also believes that Armageddon can be delayed. “I think that the world is heading right now toward Armageddon,” he says, “and that unless there is a spiritual awakening and we turn to God, the world may face its Armageddon in this decade.”
The region of Megiddo could not begin to hold all “the kings of the earth and their armies.” (Revelation 19:19) Therefore, would this not rule out any fundamentalist teaching that Armageddon will be a world war squeezed into the literal plain of Megiddo? The prophet Jeremiah indicates that Armageddon will encompass “the remotest parts of the earth” and that the casualties will be seen “from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth.”—Jeremiah 25:32, 33.
And since Armageddon means “the war of the great day of God the Almighty,” no one can prevent it. There is nothing that humans can do that will delay it. Jehovah has set an “appointed time” for the battle to start. “It will not be late.”—Revelation 16:14; 11:18; Habakkuk 2:3.
Basis for Hope
Armageddon is not to be feared by people who love righteousness. To the contrary, it can be a basis for hope. The Bible says: “And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness.” (Revelation 19:11) The battle of Armageddon will wipe the earth clean of all wickedness and pave the way for the restoration of righteous conditions.—Isaiah 11:4, 5.
For more than a hundred years, the voice of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been heard proclaiming God’s future victory over the corrupt, unyielding rulers of this system. Especially since the year 1925 the Witnesses have had a clear view of what Armageddon is and they refuse to keep silent about it. Their desire is to help people to become Armageddon survivors, not casualties. So they urge all who listen to follow the advice of Joel 2:31, 32, which speaks of “the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah,” and adds: “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe.”
Comments
Thank you hong kong
by seahorse on June 6th, 2010
i am completely blown away by your answer!
you need to be writing books for a living and im being serious!
i never knew the word har was hebrew! i always related it to nordic! "HARpoon" "sHARk" and "HARbour" for example! i do belive you of course,but i always related it to water!
thankyou very much for your answer seahorse! it was awesome!
by righty1 on June 6th, 2010
Thank you , that's lovely for you to say that,,if you would like more information on anything else let me know.
by seahorse on June 7th, 2010
rightly1, the information is from the watchtower society , there is wonderful information on every subject you may visit the site yourself www.watchtower.org
by seahorse on June 7th, 2010
will do lol,thanks again!
by righty1 on June 7th, 2010
little seahorse you do us all proud! excellent answer!
by autumn leaves on June 18th, 2010
Thanks Autumn .
by seahorse on June 19th, 2010
Armaggedon is the hill and valley of Megiddo, west of Jordan in the plain of Jezreel, between Samaria and Galilee in the land of Palestine. This is the appointed place of the great battle and it is a geographic spot.
by Strength on June 21st, 2010
dear strength, do you really think all the nations will be able to battle in this geographic spot? keep in mind the book of revelation is symbolic for the most part. it would be impossible for the nations of the earth to battle at this spot. also this battle is not among themselves, they will battle Jehovah and his military forces headed by his Son as leader of the military angelic army. the fools!!(revelation 19:11-16)remember daniel 2:44? connect the dots!:D,:0 just found a new face haha!
by autumn leaves on June 21st, 2010
You and your faces..lol
No, I do not expect them all to fit into this spot, but it does not say it will only be in this spot, it just says this is the appointed place. People can obviously surround the area too.
by Strength on June 22nd, 2010
strength, to understand the day of the end of this system of things we need to not just focus on a one scripture, but there is an entire line of reasoning along with scriptural proof. we'll talk later little buddy! i'm looking forward to a most vigorous exchange, knowing you how can this be otherwise? C: (i'm on a roll here!!) cheerio and all that good stuff!
by autumn leaves on June 22nd, 2010
Seahorse, nice answer as usual.
WHAT IS
ARMAGEDDON?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20080401/article_02.htm
by Texasescimo on June 22nd, 2010
Thanks Tex, I missed that one.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051201/article_02.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051201/article_01.htm
It seems to be one of the most/the most popular topic for JWs.
by Strength on June 23rd, 2010
I never really thought of it as one of the most popular topics, but I do look forward to it. There is much work to be done prior to that though.
(Luke 21:25-28) “Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, 26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near.”
(2 Peter 3:3-9) For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.” 5 For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men. 8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.
by Texasescimo on June 23rd, 2010
Thanks tex :-)
by Strength on June 23rd, 2010
If you watch the news, you can see that mankind really is ruining the earth. At some point those that are trusting in man will think that they have solved mans problems independant of God. Man cannot govern themselves successfully without God.
(Jeremiah 10:23) I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
(Psalm 146:3-4) Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. 4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.
(Revelation 11:18) But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
(1 Thessalonians 5:3-4) Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. 4 But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves,
(Proverbs 2:21-22) For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.
(Psalm 37:10-11) And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.
by Texasescimo on June 23rd, 2010
Yes, I can see man kind are running the earth and cannot govern themselves correctly without God.
Is your org governed by God? It would seem to me that men are running that too. Just my thoughts though.
by Strength on June 23rd, 2010
The scriptures up above were in reference to the future when Jesus takes over all affairs on the earth, not just what is happenning right now.
The following paragraph is from a book from 2002. I will send you the full article via message. You might also take a look at the two links below.
(The Scriptural expression “the congregation of the living God” makes evident who directs it. The organization is theocratic, or God-ruled. Jehovah provides direction for his people through Jesus, the one He appointed to be the invisible Head of the congregation, and by means of His own inspired Word, the Bible.—1 Timothy 3:14, 15; Ephesians 1:22, 23; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.)
(Matthew 28:19-20) Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
(Acts 1:8) but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju‧de′a and Sa‧mar′i‧a and to the most distant part of the earth.”
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20071201/article_02.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article_07.htm
by Texasescimo on June 23rd, 2010
Yep, sorry bout that, I did a reply from my phone, I didn't know you could get AB on your mobile, maybe taking things a bit too far but oh well. So now i've read it again, thanks for the scriptures Tex, and I suppose some time I will get around to reading all of what you wrote here.
by Strength on June 23rd, 2010
to add to tex's comments strength, if you took note of what Jesus words were at acts 1:8. this power they were promised was given to them shortly after when the disciples met at pentecost of 33 common era. this was only days after Jesus ascended to the heavens. on that occasion acts 2:1-4 says: "now while the day of the festival of pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same time, and sudddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. and tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, and thaey all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance." this occasion marks the beginning of the true christian congregation. proof of the power they were to receive was that the holy spirit enabled these first century christians to speak in tongues, among other powers they received to identify them as having Jehovah's support, and the Lord Jesus Christ as head of the congregation, so they could now carry on the commission of taking the message of the good news to all the nations. the book of acts gives great detail of the progress the congregation made. as well as it is a testimonial of how the christians of the time were organized for the work before them. today Jehovah's Witness congregations pattern their work and our activities just as the early christian congregation did. a closer look at how we are organized for the worldwide preaching can convince you of this!:D
by autumn leaves on June 23rd, 2010
Yes, but u are not the only group of people that do this, autumn.
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
There are many groups that do some of that to a certain extent, but most are not really preaching God's kingdom as the hope for mankind. Many are politically motivated. Look how many were duped in to a blood bath during WWII, each side thinking that God was on their side while slaughtering their brothers of their same religions on the other side. The Bible does not support all of the different teachings. Not all religions can be preaching the truth when they teach conflicting doctrines. Either the penalty for sin is death or the penalty for sin is an immortal soul tortured forever in a literal Hell Fire. Either God tortures people forever in Hell or he does not. Either God wants his name known or he doesn't. Either God wants his name removed from the Bible or he doesn't.
(Numbers 12:1-3) Now Miriam and Aaron began to speak against Moses on account of the Cush′ite wife whom he had taken, because it was a Cushite wife he had taken. 2 And they kept saying: “Is it just by Moses alone that Jehovah has spoken? Is it not by us also that he has spoken?” And Jehovah was listening. 3 And the man Moses was by far the meekest of all the men who were upon the surface of the ground.
(2 Timothy 4:2-4) preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all long-suffering and [art of] teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.
(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
(John 17:25-26) Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”
(1 Corinthians 1:10) Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.
by Texasescimo on June 24th, 2010
no other group can claim they have the same message. they may try, and many think they do, but they don't. ask around strength. how can they? if jehovah only reveals these truths to his serveants. upon being asked they will say the message is about love, salvation, yet Jesus said his message was about the good news of God's kingdom. this being said, how can a religious group preach about the kingdom, when they don't even know what the kingdom is? when they don't even realize this kingdom is now functioning? when they confuse the Father to be the Son? remember Jesus always focused attention on his Father and not himself. so, there are many indications to know what religion is really preaching the message of the good news of the kingdom of God. (matthew 24:14; 28:18-20)later :)
by autumn leaves on June 24th, 2010
The mormons like preachng th kingdom. U are not as unique as u think. Give me one other reasn why u guys r set apart from everyone else cos that one is no good. :-) ab on a train, this is funny
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
The mormons believe very strongly in the kingdom. They believed that they will be both the political and the religious rulers during the Millennium. They have made plans as to how they will rule. As I understand the Watchtower Society's teaching, the 144,000 will be in heaven and reigning with Christ. But I have never heard of a concrete plan of how the earth will be ruled by the 144,000 and how they will communicate to those on the earth. The Sociery now claims that God can communicate only with the "anointed," who have God's spirit, and says the pass this communication on to the "other sheep." But during the Millennium all the "anointed" will be in heaven and there will be no one on earth with God's spirit to receive messages from heaven.
Since JWs do not take part in governmen now, no one in the Society has the experience needed to run a civil government. It appears the the Mormons believe more strongly in the kingdom than the Watchtower Society does.
Born again Christians believe in the kingdom also. John 3:3 says, "verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." The bible is clear on this point. To enter the kingdom, a person must experience a new birth through a personal relationship with jesus Christ. The new birth should be taught by any group that believes in the kingdom.
Bible- believing churches teach about the new birth and the kingdom, so the Society is not the only group to teach about the kingdom. Clearly, the preaching of the kingdom is not a Watchtower Society distinctive. Doesn't the Society have any distinctive beleifs?
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
Tex, you mentioned something about God's real name.
I don't mind using the proper name for God, which is "Yahweh," but I don't really like using the word Jehovah. If you will look up the name Jehovah in just about any dictionary or encylopedia you will find that Jehovah is a false reading of the Hebrew word "Yahweh."
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
strength, many religions claim to know what the kingdom is, but this doesn't mean they do. when you probe them, they fall short of truly explaining what it is.
by autumn leaves on June 24th, 2010
Have you probed a mormon? ;-)
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
Strength, if you speak Hebrew, Yahweh may well be the best rendering, although some believe that Yehowah may be.
If you speak English, then Jehovah is the recognizable name for the God of the Bible.
reading the interlinear line in the middle from left to right, we see they start out the same: ieu.
They then go to Yahweh and Jehoshaphat. Shouldn't they both either start out with Jeh or Yah?
Ieu = Yah Yahweh
Ieu = Jeh Jehoshaphat
Ieu = Jeh Jehozadak
Ieu = Jeh Jehoaddah
Ieu = Jeh Jehozabad
http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/2ch17.pdf
יְהוָה
ieue
Yahweh
& עִ
om
with
־
-
פָט ָ
יְה
ieushpht
Strength, what translation does your Church suggest that you use and how do they render the tetragrammaton? How do they render other names that have similar letters?
Why do you suppose they make these rules about God's name needing to start out with "Y", but all of the other names that have the same letters in Hebrew, start out with "J" in English?
Please see the following link.
http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/9225974
by Texasescimo on June 24th, 2010
Two Mormons used to work for my wife. I never heard them mention God's Kingdom. I may be wrong, but I don't see that much importance on God's Kingdom from them.
I looked in their A-Z Index under G for God’s Kingdom and K for Kingdom of God and did not find either. Here is some of what I found.
“Kingdoms of Glory”
“Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory”
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=11&locale=0&sourceId=d1ef9daac5d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
No mention of God’s Kingdom under “Plan of salvation”
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=16&locale=0&sourceId=45af9daac5d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
No mention of God’s Kingdom under “Gospel”, at least God's Kingdom did not make it into their top 4.
The gospel is our Heavenly Father's plan of happiness. The central doctrine of the gospel is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, "The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Articles of Faith 1:4).
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=7&locale=0&sourceId=dc5e2f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
I found 5 articles when I searched “God’s Kingdom”.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=84010fd41d93b010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&hideNav=1&pageNumber=1&maxResults=20&NARROW_BY=&query=%22God%27s+Kingdom%22&bucket=AllChurchContent&dateFrom=&dateTo=&AUTHOR_CATEGORY=&AUTHOR_NAME=&FORMAT=&submitSearch=Search&dateFromDisplay=&dateToDisplay=&findByAuthor=
I don't think that they teach the same thing about God's Kingdom as the Bible does.
What Is God’s Kingdom?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_08.htm
EARTHLY BLESSINGS UNDER THE KINGDOM
http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article_04.htm
by Texasescimo on June 24th, 2010
They only use KJV, nothing else is accepted.
I don't have a problem with the name Jehovah. I just don't think it's the correct pronunciation. I’m just trying to show fallacy to your argument. ;-)
Some quotes from books on the name "Jehovah":
Webster's Third New International Dictionary: "Intended as a transliteration of Hebrew YAHWEH, the vowel points of Hebrew ADHONAY (my lord) being erroneously substituted for those of YAHWEH; from the fact that in some Hebrew manuscripts the vowel points of ADHONAY (used as a euphemism for YAHWEH) were written under the consonants YHWH of YAHWEH to indicate that ADHONAY was to be substituted in oral reading for YAHWEH. Jehovah is a Christian transliteration of the tetragrammaton long assumed by many Christians to be the authentic reproduction of the Hebrew sacred name for God, but now recognized to be a late hybrid form never used by the Jews."
Encyclopedia Americana: "JEHOVAH- an erroneous form of the name of the God of Israel."
Encyclopedia Britannica: "JEHOVH- an erroneous rendering of the name of the God of Israel. The error arose among Christians in the middle ages through combining the consonants YHWH (JHVH) with the vowels of ADONAI. . ."
New catholic Encyclopedia: "JEHOVAH, false form of the divine name Yahweh."
The Jewish Encyclopedia : "JEHOVAH is a mispronunciation of the Hebrew YHWH, the name of God. This pronunciation is grammatically impossible. The form 'Jehovah' is a philological impossibility."
Encyclopaedia Judaica: "YHWH. The personal name of the God of Irael is written in the Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH and is referred to as the 'Tetragrammaton.' At least until the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E this name was regularly pronounced with its proper vowels, as is clear from the Lachish Letters, written shortly before that dare...When Christian scholars of Europe first began to study Hebrew, they did not understand what this really meant, and they introduced the hybrid name 'Jehovah'. . . "The true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced 'Yahweh.' This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form Yah, which is sometimes used in poetry."
One example is found in Psalm 68:4, which reads in the KJV: "Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him." NWT reads the same way. This clearly shows that at least the first half of God's name was not lost as you may think.
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
I am aware that the Watchtower states that “Jehovah” was first used by the Spanish monk Raymundus Martini, in his book Pugeo Fidei, in 1270 A.D. Joseph Rutherford claims that the name “Jehovah” was revealed to him in 1931 as the true name for God. From that time on, Watchtower followers have been known as Jehovah Witnesses. The Hebrew word translated LORD or Jehovah consists of four letters, all consonants. These four letters are YHWH or JHVH when transliterated into English. The Hebrew people held this proper name in such high esteem that they would not pronounce it, and when reading the name aloud they spoke another name for God whenever it appeared. Scholars agree that “Yahweh” is its most accurate pronunciation. The watchtower Society acknowledges the fact that “Yahweh” is probably the proper pronunciation for God’s name in its 1984 booklet titled, The DIVINE NAME That will Endure Forever (pp. 8-9).
You say the Watchtower are responsible for putting God’s name back in its proper place in the Bible and into general usage. Why not just keep using the name Yahweh?
Watchtower claims that YHWH is written in the original NT as well as the OT. In the NT of the Watchtower’s NWT they have inserted the name Jehovah in 237 places- mostly where the OT is quoted, but not only there. There are an estimated 5000 existing copies of Greek manuscripts of the NT. Thought we do not have the original manuscripts, some go back very close to the originals and among these there is not one single manuscript found with YHWH written for the name “Lord.” But suppose the Watchtower Society is correct in putting the name “Jehovah” in the NT 237 times. They still have to face the fact that the original writings of the NT use the name “Jesus” 912 times. Maybe the Holy Spirit wanted to give Jesus the preeminence in the NT?
Jesus never addressed God as YHWH but always as Father, and this He did 260 times. When Jesus taught His disciples to pray, He said, “Our Father which art in heaven.” The JWs continually address God as Jehovah God. That’s not following the example of Jesus.
Watchtower says that when they make mistakes, they admit them and correct them. If this is true, they should now call themselves Yahweh’s Witnesses. Why has the Society not made this change?
If it is really so important to use the Hebrew word for LORD instead of the English word, and if you are so “accurate” and God did reveal this name to you, then you should have at least used the word “Yahweh.”
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
Tex, they are into preaching the kingdom, go and ask one of them and you will soon find out, I promise you!
You can't use that as a reason why you are set apart from other religious groups. And I think i've shown that just because you use the name Jehovah doesn't mean it is the correct name. So it doesn't mean anything or set you apart.
What is really that different about you? I always hear JWs saying how different they are. They're not really. If you come up with something unique then I will listen.
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
I am not sure that you are really listening anymore. I will repeat some of what I said.
Shouldn't they both either start out with Jeh or Yah?
Ieu = Yah Yahweh
Ieu = Jeh Jehoshaphat
Ieu = Jeh Jehozadak
Ieu = Jeh Jehoaddah
Ieu = Jeh Jehozabad
Why do you suppose they make these rules about God's name needing to start out with "Y", but all of the other names that have the same letters in Hebrew, start out with "J" in English?
Why do you think that we should say God's name in Hebrew, but use English on the other names.
Oh, I absolutely know what others have said.
"What is really that different about you? I always hear JWs saying how different they are. They're not really. If you come up with something unique then I will listen."
If you really want to know what sets us apart, that is love. We would rather die than kill our brothers or anybody else for that matter over political, national, racial, or what ever divides others. If you look throughout answerbag, you can see that there is obviously something different. Look how many temporary sock-puppet accounts there are that make rediculous claims about us, from JW's are not allowed to clip their nose hairs to JW's are not allowed to look at other Bibles besides the NWT.
by Texasescimo on June 24th, 2010
strength, they may be involved into preaching the kingdom, so you say, i have had conversations with them and they made no mention of such, but let's say for arguments sake you are right, mormons also preach about the kingdom. however, if they believe this kingdom is real, and if they have the correct understanding about what it is, why are they so involved with the political affairs of the world as well as the rest of the religions that claim they know what the kingdom is? didn't Jesus say his kingdom was no part of the world? didn't Jesus turn down satan's temptation of being given all the kingdoms of the world for one act of worship? why, becaue he knew just that, that the political system of the time as well as today all are part of satan's system of things. so if the mormons know what the kingdom is. it is all too obvious they don't believe it is the real solution to all of mankinds problems, and much less are they going to bring attention to this fact in their ministry. i have yet to find an individual that has NEVER studied with the witnesses or at least come in contact with the witneses and knows EXACTLY what the kingdom of God really is. it has never happened. if that individual acts to know, it is later revealed that he knew for the fact of studying with the witnesses. at the time this fact was not revealed, until later.
by autumn leaves on June 24th, 2010
strength, they may be involved into preaching the kingdom, so you say, i have had conversations with them and they made no mention of such, but let's say for arguments sake you are right, mormons also preach about the kingdom. however, if they believe this kingdom is real, and if they have the correct understanding about what it is, why are they so involved with the political affairs of the world as well as the rest of the religions that claim they know what the kingdom is? didn't Jesus say his kingdom was no part of the world? didn't Jesus turn down satan's temptation of being given all the kingdoms of the world for one act of worship? why, becaue he knew just that, that the political system of the time as well as today all are part of satan's system of things. so if the mormons know what the kingdom is. it is all too obvious they don't believe it is the real solution to all of mankinds problems, and much less are they going to bring attention to this fact in their ministry. i have yet to find an individual that has NEVER studied with the witnesses or at least come in contact with the witneses and knows EXACTLY what the kingdom of God really is. it has never happened. if that individual acts to know, it is later revealed that he knew for the fact of studying with the witnesses. at the time this fact was not revealed, until later.
by autumn leaves on June 24th, 2010
Did I say we should use English in the other names? Maybe we should use them in Hebrew too :)
God's name is more important than any other name, I just think there is more evidence pointing to the name Yahweh rather than Jehovah. Sorry I don't see it the way you do.
Tex, that is quite a claim to make. I'm not saying you do not have love for one another and i'm not saying that killing anyone is good, neither is going to war etc. Are you saying you are the only ones like that though?
Have you been attended meetings at other churches and saw first hand what it is like? How can you judge on this matter of love if you haven't. Can you prove that?
I have attended many churches, including one kingdom hall. I don't have much basis to judge but i'm just saying, it's not just the kingdom hall people that have love like this.
Also I think it's great you will not go to war, killing people over matters of this world. That's good. The mennonites do not go to war, nor have they ever gone to war since they began several hundred years ago. Same is true of the Moravians. There are also the Quakers and the Seventh-Day Adventists who don't go to war.
I don't like it when I see ridiculous claims made about JW's nor do I like to see you getting abuse. It's not right and not nice to experience. Remember also, it's not just the JWs that have had this abuse and had people make claims about them.
What about a distinctive doctrine you have, anything at all?
I've always struggled to believe you are God's only one true org in which he communicates through. Atleast if you are different in some way then I could understand.
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
Thanks for dropping by autumn, can you really say that is a fact for every person? Maybe in your experience but do you know every person in the world who has studied with JWs? :)
by Strength on June 24th, 2010
strength, obviously you are feeling defensive about this, i assure you i meant no offense. just pointing something that all witnesses find in our service. even you, who has helped you really understand your bible? but if you want to think otherwise, you are at liberty. you know we are always here to help. and i will leave this thread so you and tex can continue.
by autumn leaves on June 24th, 2010
by autumn leaves on June 24th, 2010
Quote: "Maybe we should use them in Hebrew too :)
God's name is more important than any other name, I just think there is more evidence pointing to the name Yahweh rather than Jehovah"
Is there a translation that uses all Hebrew names?
Most critics of using the English form Jehovah, are not consistant about using wanting to use Hebrew forms for other names. In fact, most prefer to remove it totally and replace it with LORD. I personally don't object to using Yahweh or Jehovah, but alot of the ones that make that point against Jehovah do so just to make it look like JW's are wrong, many of which use the KJV in their Church and then condemn JW's for using Jehovah rather than LORD or Yahweh.
Perhaps if the Mennonites, Moravians, Quakers and the Seventh-Day Adventists are all teaching the same thing and are all teaching the truth about God's Kingdom to their neighbors, teaching the truth about rather or not Christ was the end of the Mosaic law, then perhaps that is where one should go.
As a side note, Abbyguy claims to be a Mennonite but in another thread he condemns JW's for not going to war.
by Texasescimo on June 24th, 2010
http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/9229808
Are there sock-puppet accounts slandering and spreading hate and lies towards the Mennonites, Moravians, Quakers and the Seventh-Day Adventists like the one in the link up above?
(Matthew 5:11, Matthew 10:22, Luke 6:22)
by Texasescimo on June 24th, 2010
Hi Strength. Good to see you are still searching. Actually, no human today can be certain how God’s name was originally pronounced in Hebrew because Biblical Hebrew was originally written with only consonants, no vowels. When the language was in everyday use, readers easily provided the proper vowels. In time, however, the Jews came to have the superstitious idea that it was wrong to say God’s personal name out loud, so they used substitute expressions. Centuries later, Jewish scholars developed a system of points by which to indicate which vowels to use when reading ancient Hebrew, but they put the vowels for the substitute expressions around the four consonants representing the divine name. Thus the original pronunciation of the divine name was lost.
Many scholars favor the spelling “Yahweh,” but it is uncertain and there is not agreement among them. On the other hand, “Jehovah” is the form of the name that is most readily recognized, because it has been used in English for centuries and preserves, equally with other forms, the four consonants of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton.
J. B. Rotherham, in The Emphasised Bible, used the form Yahweh throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. However, later in his Studies in the Psalms he used the form “Jehovah.”.... He explained: “JEHOVAH—The employment of this English form of the Memorial name .. in the present version of the Psalter does not arise from any misgiving as to the more correct pronunciation, as being Yahwéh; but solely from practical evidence personally selected of the desirability of keeping in touch with the public ear and eye in a matter of this kind, in which the principal thing is the easy recognition of the Divine name intended.”—(London, 1911), p. 29.
After discussing various pronunciations, German professor Gustav Friedrich Oehler concluded: “From this point onward I use the word Jehovah, because, as a matter of fact, this name has now become more naturalized in our vocabulary, and cannot be supplanted.”—Theologie des Alten Testaments, second edition (Stuttgart, 1882), p. 143.
Jesuit scholar Paul Joüon states: “In our translations, instead of the (hypothetical) form Yahweh, we have used the form Jéhovah ...... which is the conventional literary form used in French.”—Grammaire de l’hébreu biblique (Rome, 1923), footnote on p. 49.
Most names change to some extent when transferred from one language to another. Jesus was born a Jew, and his name in Hebrew was perhaps pronounced Ye·shua‛, but the inspired writers of the Christian Scriptures did not hesitate to use the Greek form of the name, I·e·sous. In most other languages the pronunciation is slightly different, but we freely use the form that is common in our tongue. The same is true of other Bible names. How, then, can we show proper respect for the One to whom the most important name of all belongs? Would it be by never speaking or writing his name because we do not know exactly how it was originally pronounced? Or, rather, would it be by using the pronunciation and spelling that are common in our language, while speaking well of its Owner and conducting ourselves as his worshipers in a manner that honors him?
Like Tex. I have no problem with Jehovah or Yahweh.
Hope this helps...Vera
Hope you don't feel like you are being gainged up on..(:>
I always enjoy reading your posts. I can always see the wheels turning....I like that.
by vew573 on June 24th, 2010
Thank you all.
Well now it's gotten to three people...lol I guess I shoulda known I can't argue God's name with such experts in the field...all at once! ;-)
And Tex, when I asked for a distinctive doctrine or anything that sets you apart and when I mention these other groups, I didn't ask for you to start knocking them down, but to tell me more about you.
All I am doing is letting you know that you're really not the only ones. You can say none of them preach the kingdom like you do, but I firmly disagree. You talk about abbeyguy on here , he cannot represent ALL others in his religion.
You can't use ab as an example, and say you are the only people that ever get abuse. Go into the real world and lots of people get it, not just JWs.
I'm not getting defensive, I just would like to hear a real answer. If that's ok. If not , we can just leave the thread the way it is. :)
by Strength on June 25th, 2010
Sorry Strength, I think that some of my answers were some what off base. I didn't say that we are the only people that ever get abuse, I was just using AB as a convenient example that there is definately something different about us other wise I don't think that there would be as much hostility against us. I was thinking that you had implied that JW's are no different than other religions? I have seen several threads where what are considered mainstream Christians talk about having to go to China to get persecution where JW's have experienced persecution in every Country, although right now, violent persecution is not as prevalent in most Countries as it used to be. (I believe that most of the violent persecution was actually at the hands of whatever was considered mainstream in the particular Country, if I am not mistaken.) "Go into the real world and lots of people get it, not just JWs." At a job that I used to work at, there were people of several different beliefs. I used to go out drinking, getting into fights, and immorality. No one ever tried to tell me that what I was doing was wrong, many were entertained by my antics. When I started studying with JW's, some then started trying to save me while other started verbal assaults. Definately something made them think that JW's were different.
I wasn't really trying to knock those other religions down, and actually, I am pretty sure that abbyguy is not a Mennonite as in a thread a couple of months prior to that one he told me that he was non-denominational it was in a more recent thread where he actually told no_one_special that he was a Mennonite. There is some truth in all religions, Muslems believe that Jesus existed and was sent by God.
Here is an article about Mennonites if interested. http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050901/article_01.htm
Here is a link to some of JW beliefs. Obviously, some religions agree with some of these, but I don't believe any other religion believes all of these.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/article_03.htm
Is there another religion that teaches that only 144,000 are to be bought from the earth to rule over the earth with Christ and will judge angels?
by Texasescimo on June 25th, 2010
I understand you now, Tex. :)
If the teaching is true that only 144,000 persons will go to heaven, I would like to know how there could be any openings left when Charles Russell came upon the scene in 1880? The book of Acts mentions at least 100,000 people saved, and this was only the beginning of the growth of Christianty. There were at least 250,000 Jews in the early church, not counting the thousands of Gentiles. Also there were over 250,000 martyrs who would surely be included in the 144,000. In the watchtower book The Finshed Mystery, 1917, CR said there were 861,000 martyrs. You would think they would all be filled by the apostolic age or shortly after that...right?
by Strength on June 25th, 2010
I have a few questions if you don't mind.
1) Do you agree that after the death of the apostles that there was to be a falling away from true worship until the time of the end?
2) Where in Acts does is mention at least 100,000 people saved?
3) By what year were there at least 250,000 Jews in the early Church?
4) Until what time were the fleshly Jews guaranteed a chance to rule as Kings and Priest?
5) If everyone goes to heaven as Kings and Priest, who do the Kings rule over?
6) What does the Bible say that those that go to heaven are going to do there?
7) If all of the good go to heaven, who is going to inherit the earth?
by Texasescimo on June 25th, 2010
1: yes, the bible speaks about a falling away in the end times. You claim we are living in the end times now. In order for a person to fall away, they must have something to fall away from in the first place. Watchtower hierarchy claims that in 1919 God chose them to be “His sole channel of communication to this earth.” At that time there were about 20,000 JWs. If ya add up the number of those who have joined over the years and compare it to the total growth, you see that at least one thirds of those who join eventually fall away. One third is a high percentage. But even with one third falling away, you have grown from 20,000 in 1919 to six million or more, period of over 90 years. If there really was a large falling away in apostolic times (though I can’t see this in the bible), it is hard to believe the watchtower org could do more evangelizing in 90 years than Jesus Christ and His 12 disciples! The church that Jesus started was a pure church. By its own admission, Watchtower was almost completely pagan when it began. It has been and is still trying to get rid of pagan practices. Its leaders claim to keep getting “new light” which is supposed to expose and correct mistakes (paganism) of their earlier teachings. You know the book of Rev says that the true church was then still upon the earth. This would be about 70 years after the founding of the church. It’s hard for me to accept the fact that the pure church which Jesus started with his 12 apostles could not have realized anywhere near 144,000 true conversions in 70 years..? There isn’t one word in the gospels or epistles that the number destined for heaven is restricted. There is nothing found in the writings of the church fathers either, that the number of those who could go to heaven would be restricted to just 144,000. Since the rev of John was not written until 96 A.D., it is clear that for at least 70 years there was no teaching that only 144,000 would go to heaven. (And as we have seen, by 96 A.D. there were well over 144,000 who had become faithful believers.) From Philippians 3:20-21 we know that these people looked forward to going to heaven- For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Also look at Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1 Pet 1:3-5; Jude 24-25
by Strength on June 25th, 2010
2/3: 3,000 (Acts 2:41), daily saved (Acts 2:47), 5,000 (Acts 4:4), many (Acts 9:42; 17:12; 19:18), As many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48), many ten thousands [lit. Myriads] (Acts 21:20. In the NWT it is translated “thousands” in the text, but in the large reference edition of the NWT a footnote reads: “Lit., ‘myriads: tens of thousands.’” By adding “many” to “tens of thousands” you get a very large number of believing Jews, people who are both physical and spiritual Jews.) This easily comes to 144,000. And since the early Christians were persecuted, surely that would make them worthy to be among the 144,000.
by Strength on June 25th, 2010
7: Noone. you take the number 144,000 literal, you should also make the number in Rev 7:9 literal, where it says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." God's throne is in heaven. It says that in verses 11-17. So this great heavenly crowd which no man can number will be also in heaven. Not on earth.
by Strength on June 25th, 2010
The 144,000 refers to a literal number of actual Jews (12,000 from each tribe except the tribe Dan), who are the faithful Jewish remnant saved durint the Tribulation. The Jews may be the ones who preach the gospel to the ends of the earth during the Tribulation, but I don't know. The calling- out and the work of the 144,000 is something that is still future. It is certain that these 144,000 come out of the Great Tribulation (Rev 7:14) along with the great multitude who are found in Rev 7:9-17. The bible says that Christ's saints will live and reign with Him for 1000 years, but it never limits the number of saints (Rev 3:21; 20:4-6).
I don't have much time left now.
by Strength on June 25th, 2010
I don't know what people are going to do in heaven, It's not like i've been there ;-)
by Strength on June 25th, 2010
the bible says what the purpose is for those that go to heaven.
by autumn leaves on June 27th, 2010
Where?
by Strength on June 27th, 2010
Here are a few scriptures that give a clue.
(Revelation 20:4) ".... And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years."
Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”
(1 Corinthians 6:2-3) Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters? 3 Do YOU not know that we shall judge angels? Why, then, not matters of this life?
(2 Timothy 2:12) if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us;
(Revelation 1:6) and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.
(Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(Revelation 11:6) These have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish.
(Matthew 19:28) Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(Revelation 2:26) And to him that conquers and observes my deeds down to the end I will give authority over the nations,
(Revelation 3:21) To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
(Luke 22:29-30) and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
(Daniel 7:27)
What Is God’s Kingdom?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_08.htm
by Texasescimo on June 29th, 2010
(Revelation 20:4) ".... And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years."
Is this a thousand years to be literal? If so, why do they stay ruling after the thousand years?
Do you remember a discussion we were talking about 144,000 and other things in revelation such as the tribal listings etc. It included quite a few discussions. I have lost the link to it.
by Strength on July 29th, 2011