Protestants:The early Christians didn't doubt Christ's true presence in the Eucharist why change?

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• It wasn't centuries later who told you this? It was the belief of the early christians and it wasnt untill human beings stoped believing in the true presence did this belief branch away. John 6;51 Jesus himself is saying "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whever eats this bread will live forever;and the bread that I give is my flesh for the life of the world." Jesus said "the bread that I give is my flesh." (this is scripture) If Jesus said this is like my flesh I would understand.

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  by jay on January 15th, 2010

• The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying how can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus told them again Amen Amen I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you donot have life within you."
  Then Jesus says "whever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day." how can this be a symbal?
  Jesus then says "For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink." not a symbol or fake "true" Jesus is saying this
  Jesus then says "whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him...

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  by jay on January 15th, 2010

• Then many of his deciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard who can except it?" the deciples that were following Jesus couldn't except it...then Jesus tells them "Does this shock you?" "What if you were to see the son of man ascending to where he was before? obviousely Jesus wouldn't give this example of ascending if he was saying his body and blood was just a symbal. In other words Jesus was trying to tell them my flesh is true.
  Jesus then says "the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But their are some of you who do not believe." if this was a symbal what would they need to believe?

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  by jay on January 15th, 2010

• "Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the ones who would betray him. And he said,"For this reason I have told you no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my father"
  
  "As a result of this many of his deciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him."
  Jesus then said to the twelve "Do you also want to leave?" Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whome shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
  Jesus goes further to say "Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil? He was refering to Judas son of Simon the Iscariot; It was he who would betray him, one of the twelve." In other words believe me even though it doesn't make sence to you I know what I am doing

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  by jay on January 15th, 2010

• :) I'm still trying to find where HE said once a year at Passover/Easter! Remember Him....I know HE said as oft as you come together (to break bread), Remember ME.....

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  by thatsJustme on January 17th, 2010

• Hello Jay, I copied part of an article on the subject.
  The Institution of “the Lord’s Evening Meal”
  Jesus himself instituted “the Lord’s evening meal,” or Memorial of his death. (1 Corinthians 11:20, 24) However, did he set up a mysterious rite in which his followers would actually eat his body and drink his blood?
  Jesus had just celebrated the Jewish Passover and dismissed Judas Iscariot, the apostle who was about to betray him. Matthew, one of the 11 apostles present, reported: “As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: ‘Take, eat. This means my body.’ Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks [Greek, eu‧kha‧ri‧ste΄sas], he gave it to them, saying: ‘Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my “blood of the covenant,” which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.’”—Matthew 26:26-28.
  For Jesus, as for all of God’s servants, asking a blessing on the food was a matter of course. (Deuteronomy 8:10; Matthew 6:11; 14:19; 15:36; Mark 6:41; 8:6; John 6:11, 23; Acts 27:35; Romans 14:6) Is there any reason to believe that in thus giving thanks, Jesus was also performing a miracle, causing his followers literally to consume his flesh and his blood?
  “This Means” or “This Is”?
  Granted, some Bible translations render Jesus’ words this way: “Take and eat; this is my body,” and, “Drink all of you, because this is my blood.” (Matthew 26:26-28, Conferenza Episcopale Italiana; The New Jerusalem Bible) It is also true that the Greek word e‧stin΄, a form of the Greek verb “to be,” essentially means “is.” But the same verb can also mean “signify.” Interestingly, in many versions of the Bible, this verb is frequently translated “mean” or “stand for.” It is the context that determines the most precise rendering. For instance, at Matt12:7, e‧stin is rendered “means” in many Bible translations: “If you had known what this means [Greek, e‧stin]: I want mercy and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the blameless.”—CEI; Douay Version. http://bible.cc/matthew/12-7.htm
  In this regard, many respected Bible scholars have agreed that the word “is” does not accurately render the thought Jesus was expressing here. For example, Jacques Dupont considered the culture and society in which Jesus lived and concluded that “the most natural” rendering of the verse should be: “This means my body” or, “This represents my body.”
  At any rate, Jesus could not have meant that his followers were literally to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Why not? After the Flood of Noah’s day, when God gave man permission to eat the flesh of animals, he directly forbade man to consume blood. (Genesis 9:3, 4) This command was repeated in the Mosaic Law, which Jesus obeyed fully. (Deuteronomy 12:23; 1 Peter 2:22) And the apostles were inspired by holy spirit to renew the command against consuming blood, making that law binding upon all Christians. (Acts 15:20, 29) Would Jesus institute an observance that would require his followers to violate a sacred decree of Almighty God? Impossible!
  Clearly, then, Jesus used the bread and wine as symbols. The unleavened bread meant, or represented, his sinless body that would be sacrificed. The red wine signified his blood that would be poured out “in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.”—Matthew 26:28.

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  by Texasescimo on January 21st, 2010

• Jesus instituted the Lord’s Evening Meal and was killed on the day of Passover, which was observed “as a memorial” of Israel’s deliverance from Egyptian bondage in 1513 B.C.E. (Exodus 12:14) The Passover was held only once a year, on the 14th day of the Jewish month Nisan. (Exodus 12:1-6; Leviticus 23:5) This indicates that Jesus’ death should be commemorated only as often as the Passover—annually—not monthly, weekly, or daily.
  .
  The passover was once a year.
  (Exodus 12:14) “‘And this day must serve as a memorial for YOU, and YOU must celebrate it as a festival to Jehovah throughout YOUR generations. As a statute to time indefinite YOU should celebrate it.
  (Exodus 12:6) And it must continue under safeguard by YOU until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings.
  (Leviticus 23:5) In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the two evenings is the passover to Jehovah.
  (Leviticus 16:34) And this must serve as a statute to time indefinite for YOU, in order to make atonement for the sons of Israel concerning all their sins once in the year.” Accordingly he did just as Jehovah had commanded Moses.
  (Luke 22:1) Now the festival of the unfermented cakes, the so-called Passover, was getting near.
  (Luke 22:7) The day of the unfermented cakes now arrived, on which the passover [victim] must be sacrificed;
  (Hebrews 9:25) Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own.
  (1 Corinthians 5:7) Clear away the old leaven, that YOU may be a new lump, according as YOU are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed.

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  by Texasescimo on January 21st, 2010

• Hey Texasescimo
  Your translation doesn't fit in scripture and doesn't fit with the beliefs of the early christians...it doesn't and wouldnt make sence if you raplaced the body and blood to mean a symbal. ‘Take, eat. This means my body.’ Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: ‘Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my “blood of the covenant,”
  
  The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying how can this man give us his flesh to eat? why would the Jews have quarreled among themselves and say "how can this man give us his flesh to eat"? unless they understood Jesus to say "is" my body?... they would have never quarreled among themselves. Jesus told them again Amen Amen I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you donot have life within you."
  how would you have "life in you" when you eat a symbol? its imposible. These are mysteries and Gods promise of love that he would be with us. This is a absolute miricle and selfless love of Christ.

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  by jay on January 21st, 2010

• "how can this man give us his flesh to eat"? unless they understood Jesus to say "is" my body?
  You are mixing up two different conversations. In the earlier conversation, (John 6) many took it literal and left him. The ones that waited for clarification stayed with him and received it at the end of his Ministry. (Mark 14, Luke 22, Matthew 26) As they ate the bread and drank the wine, his body did not start disappearing.
  
  John 6:50-60 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
  52 Therefore the Jews began contending with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 These things he said as he was teaching in public assembly at Ca‧per′na‧um.
  60 Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?
  (Mark 14:22) And as they continued eating, he took a loaf, said a blessing, broke it and gave it to them, and said: “Take it, this means my body.”
  (Luke 22:19) Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”
  (Matthew 26:26) As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body.”
  
  
  
  You cannot take everything literal. You have to see what else the Bible says about a subject. That was the problem when the Catholic Church persecuted Galileo. Galileo was sentenced in an austere hall before the members of the Inquisition on June 22, 1633. He was found guilty of “having held and believed false doctrine, contrary to the Holy and Divine Scriptures, that the Sun . . . does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world.”
  
  
  They did not realize that the sun does not literally rise and that the earth being solidly fixed does not mean it does not move.
  
  Psalms 50:1 The Divine One, God, Jehovah, has himself spoken,
  And he proceeds to call the earth,
  From the rising of the sun until its setting
  
  Psalms 119:90 Your faithfulness is for generation after generation.
  You have solidly fixed the earth, that it may keep standing

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  by Texasescimo on January 22nd, 2010

• I agree that you cannot take everything literal in the bible and you should look at scripture as a whole, but you are replacing and adding words to fit your bible.
  
  This is also done to deny the diety of Jesus when you added the letter "a" in front of God. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God,and the word was God."

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  by jay on January 22nd, 2010

• When does it end? You can change any scripture and make a strong argument with it..Im sure any respected educated man can influence many people to believe and follow any wrong doctrine if he really wants. Obviously Jesus is not a door and you cannot take everything in the bible literal, but who are you to change the word of God to fit your way of thinking.
  
  Revolation 22 says If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the abook of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

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  by jay on January 22nd, 2010

• What do you think about Catholic Bibles that add "as" in front of God?
  Exodus 7:1 The LORD answered him, "See! I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall act as your prophet.
  Exodus 4:16 He shall speak to the people for you: he shall be your spokesman, and you shall be as God to him
  http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo7.pdf
  
  
  What do you think about Catholic translations that add "a" in other verses besides John 1:1?
  Acts 12:22 The assembled crowd cried out, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man."
  Acts 28:6 They were expecting him to swell up or suddenly to fall down dead but, after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and began to say that he was a god.
  http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act28.pdf
  
  What do you think about Catholic translations that translate "estin" as meant rather than "is"?
  Matt 12:7 If you knew what this meant, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned these innocent men
  http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat12.pdf
  
  
  Remember that Revolation 22 says If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the abook of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book
  
  http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm
  
  Do the same rules apply across the board?
  If someone thought that Moses was God, perhaps they would not add "as" in front of God in Exodus 4:16 and Exodus 7:1.

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  by Texasescimo on January 22nd, 2010

• Jay, I just looked back at some of my post in this thread. I think that I came across in a bad way. I am sorry. I have talked to you a couple of times since I found AB and I find you to be a very nice person. I believe that you are sincere. I don't think that you meant the "a" thing in a malicious way as I am sure that you have heard people say that before. There were no indefinite articles in koine Greek 2000 years ago so the translators have to decide when to add it when translating into English.
  Again, I am truly sorry.

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  by Texasescimo on January 24th, 2010

• I know, I think we got on this thing around the same time. I admire you more than anyone on this thing man...even though we don't have all the same beliefs I admire your cheracter. I just think we are both passionate about our faith and it obviousely shows. I just wish you were a Catholic lol...you definately have the love of Christ and I definately see you as a brother in christ. May God give us both peace love humility and wisdome.

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  by jay on January 25th, 2010

• Thank you Jay. I really do not wan't to hurt anyones feelings. I do sincerely care about people and I know that you do too.

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  by Texasescimo on January 26th, 2010

• Catholics believe that Jesus established his church "my church" and the gates of hell will not provail against it. We believe that the Catholic church is guided by the holy spirit in truth through doctrine, tradition and scripture. The difference is the origional English translation Bible was put together and approved by the church Jesus established. In 1582 the famous Douay-Rheims New Testament translation was completed, while the Old Testament was finished in 1609. Ironically the Douay-Rheims New Testament influenced the King James Bible.

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  by jay on January 30th, 2010

• If you don't trust the Douay-Rheims or the King James Bible then why do you trust the translation of St. Jerome in Latin?

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  by jay on January 30th, 2010

• Quote: "If you don't trust the Douay-Rheims or the King James Bible then why do you trust the translation of St. Jerome in Latin?"
  I really don't know what you mean. Can you elaborate a little?
  
  I use several translations. If I am having a conversation with a Catholic, I generally try to use a Catholic translation. When conversing with a Protestant, I usually quote from Protestant translation. Did you know that the three most commonly translated word rendered Hell are Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna and none of them are actually Hell as taught by the Churches? For example, the Douay has Job praying to be protected in Hell. The translators try to fit Hell in where they can and most translate Sheol and Hades as Hell when someone bad goes there but as grave when someone good dies.
  http://bible.cc/job/14-13.htm
  Douay-Rheims Bible
  Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?
  
  http://www.ovrlnd.com/Cults/poprejectshell.html
  POPE JOHN PAUL II REJECTS REALITY OF A LITERAL HELL

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  by Texasescimo on January 30th, 2010

• What do you think about Catholic Bibles that add "as" in front of God?
  Exodus 7:1 The LORD answered him, "See! I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall act as your prophet.
  
  How do you have it writen in your Bible if you dont mind me asking?

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  by jay on March 2nd, 2010

• Sure, no problem Jay. Good to hear from you again. This is the way the NWT renders it.
  (Exodus 7:1) Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.
  http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm
  http://bible.cc/exodus/7-1.htm
  http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&b=Exd&c=7&v=1&x=39&y=5#vrsn/1

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  by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010

• Sure, no problem Jay. Good to hear from you again. This is the way the NWT renders it.
  (Exodus 7:1) Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.
  http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm
  http://bible.cc/exodus/7-1.htm
  http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&b=Exd&c=7&v=1&x=39&y=5#vrsn/1

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  by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010

• Sure, no problem Jay. Good to hear from you again. This is the way the NWT renders it.
  (Exodus 7:1) Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.
  http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm
  http://bible.cc/exodus/7-1.htm
  http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&b=Exd&c=7&v=1&x=39&y=5#vrsn/1

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  by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010

• Sure, no problem Jay. Good to hear from you again. This is the way the NWT renders it.
  (Exodus 7:1) Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.
  http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm
  http://bible.cc/exodus/7-1.htm
  http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&b=Exd&c=7&v=1&x=39&y=5#vrsn/1

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  by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010

• Sure, no problem Jay. Good to hear from you again. This is the way the NWT renders it.
  (Exodus 7:1) Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.
  http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm
  http://bible.cc/exodus/7-1.htm
  http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&b=Exd&c=7&v=1&x=39&y=5#vrsn/1

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  by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010

• Sorry for the mass post. My computer was locked up or something. Computer brain freeze. Lol
  Have a good night.

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  by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010

• Do you understand the translation to mean moses is God? In other words I dont see a difference in the understanding of the way it is writen in your bible and mine. I think we both come to the same conclusion (understanding) of what the scripture is saying.

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  by jay on March 3rd, 2010

• I agree with you. I just made the comparison because of the John 1:1 thingy. People seem to start with John 1:1 and think that Jesus is the same God that he is with and a preconceived idea of the Trinity and doing that along with removing Gods name from the Bible causes some confusion.
  The Bible consistatly shows that Jehovah (the Father is the most high) Jesus is the son of God, the firstborn of all creation. Jesus has a God that is head over him, Jehovah God does not have anyone over him. Jesus is our Lord and Savior.
  (Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
  (Psalm 97:9) For you, O Jehovah, are the Most High over all the earth; You are very high in your ascent over all [other] gods.
  (Mark 5:7) and, when he had cried out with a loud voice, he said: “What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I put you under oath by God not to torment me.”
  (Luke 1:32) This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father,
  (John 20:31) But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.
  (John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
  All complete manuscripts and translations also tell us that for Christians there is one God the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ.
  (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
  (1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.
  (John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
  (John 20:17-18) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” 18 Mary Mag′da•lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” and that he said these things to her.
  (2 Corinthians 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,
  (Revelation 3:12) “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.
  (1 Peter 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

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  by Texasescimo on March 3rd, 2010

• “And we believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father … .”
  
  Paul said God and Jesus are of the same form. Thomas said Jesus is lord and God.
  
  Genisis 1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
  John 1;2 "He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be and without him nothing came to be threw him was life, and this life was the light of the human race".
  
  How can all things came to be threw Jesus and without him nothing was made when Genesis says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Eather the Bible contradicts itself or Jesus is begotten from God and are of the same substance.

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  by jay on March 4th, 2010

• Jehovah spoke through prophets like Moses and also did miracles through prophets, but that does not make them God. After jehovah created Jesus, he created everything else through Jesus as a master worker.
  __________
  Although most translations say “without him”, choris should be translated as “apart from”.
  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john1:3,10;1cor8:6;col1:16&version=NASB;HCSB
  http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh1.pdf
  http://www.antioch.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=132#1
  ____________________
  
  The Father created Jesus and then through Jesus, God created everything else.
  
  (1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
  (Hebrews 1:2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.
  (John 1:3) All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5565&t=NASB
  
  (John 1:10) He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.
  (Colossians 1:15-16) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.
  (Revelation 3:14) “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
  (Proverbs 8:22) “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.
  (Proverbs 8:30) then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,
  (Genesis 1:26) And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”
  
  Jesus also said that "I live because of the Father", Jehovah does not live because of anyone else.
  (John 6:57) Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me.
  In line with the principle at 1Cor 15:27-28, it is evident that everything, would be with the exception of himself and God, as he obviously did not create himself or God. The Bible shows that God created Jesus and then through Jesus, he created everything else.

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  by Texasescimo on March 4th, 2010

• I really can't believe your saying this choris should be translated as “apart from”. That is not the origional translation and the way it was worded in the bible. Are you saying that the "choris should be translated as apart from" or is this writen in your bible?
  
  st. Jerome knew latin and translated the correct english words to line up with the latin bible translations. Would you agree with me in saying that according to st. Jeromes translated wording he himself and many others at the time believed that Jesus was God?

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  by jay on March 4th, 2010

• Choris in the original writings in Greek, meant "apart from".
  
  Did you look at the links that I gave you? Here they are again.
  Although most translations say “without him”, choris should be translated as “apart from”.
  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john1:3,10;1cor8:6;col1:16&version=NASB;HCSB
  http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh1.pdf
  http://www.antioch.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=132#1
  .
  If you notice in the interlinear, it says "apart from" but then changes it to "without". Did you look at all of the other scriptures? They all concur that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. Jehovah (the Father) created Jesus and then through Jesus, Jehovah created everything else.
  (1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
  (Ephesians 3:14-15) On account of this I bend my knees to the Father, 15 to whom every family in heaven and on earth owes its name,
  .
  Please pray about it and read all of the relavent scriptures and see what conclusion you come to.

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  by Texasescimo on March 4th, 2010

• (Genesis 1:1) In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
  (Genesis 1:6) And God went on to say: “Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.”
  (Psalm 33:6) By the word of Jehovah the heavens themselves were made, And by the spirit of his mouth all their army.
  (Psalm 148:5) Let them praise the name of Jehovah; For he himself commanded, and they were created.
  (Isaiah 40:26-28) “Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing. 27 “For what reason do you say, O Jacob, and do you speak out, O Israel, ‘My way has been concealed from Jehovah, and justice to me eludes my God himself’? 28 Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding.
  
  (Isaiah 42:5) This is what the [true] God, Jehovah, has said, the Creator of the heavens and the Grand One stretching them out; the One laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath to the people on it, and spirit to those walking in it:
  
  (Isaiah 45:18) For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.
  (Jeremiah 10:10-12) But Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God and the King to time indefinite. Because of his indignation the earth will rock, and no nations will hold up under his denunciation. 11 This is what YOU men will say to them: “The gods that did not make the very heavens and the earth are the ones who will perish from the earth and from under these heavens.” 12 He is the Maker of the earth by his power, the One firmly establishing the productive land by his wisdom, and the One who by his understanding stretched out the heavens.

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  by Texasescimo on March 4th, 2010

• Jerome likely believed in the Trinity. That doctrine developed over a couple of hundred years. That is why there is so much talk about it now, but no mention of it in the Bible.
  The Bible writers showed that after the death of the apostles that there was to be an apostasy until the time of the end. (Mat 24:11; 2Pet 2:1; 2Tim 4:3-4; 2Cor 4:3-4; 2Thes 2:3) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mat%2024:11;%202Pet%202:1;%202Tim%204:3-4;%202Cor%204:3-4;%202Thes%202:3&version=NASB;YLT;HCSB;DARBY;NLT (1Tim 4:1-3; 2Tim 4:3) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Tim%204:1-3;%202Tim%204:3&version=NASB;KJV;HCSB;DARBY;HCSB
  
  (Acts 20:29) I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness,
  (2 Timothy 4:3-4) For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.
  (2 Peter 2:1-3) However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.
  (Colossians 2:8) Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;
  (2 Peter 1:16) No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we acquainted YOU with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but it was by having become eyewitnesses of his magnificence.

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  by Texasescimo on March 4th, 2010

• "Jerome likely believed in the Trinity. That doctrine developed over a couple of hundred years. That is why there is so much talk about it now, but no mention of it in the Bible."
  
  If the Doctrine of the trinity never came to existance it wouldn't have changed the belief that God the Father son and holy spirit are God. Yes, the word "Trinity" is used but the belief is not in the word, the belief is behinde the word. In other words if you got rid of the word Trinity you are still going to have the same beliefs. Its a belief if you use the word or not.

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  by jay on March 5th, 2010

• I don't want to seem redundant, but I will post some of the same scriptures again.
  If there are three that are equally God, how is Jehovah alone the most high? If Jesus is true God also, then how is the Father the only true God and how is God the head over Christ? Why does jesus say that his Father is greater than he is? How can God have a God above him?
  
  (Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
  (Psalm 97:9) For you, O Jehovah, are the Most High over all the earth; You are very high in your ascent over all [other] gods.
  (John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”
  (John 20:31) But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.
  (John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
  (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
  (1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.
  (John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
  (John 20:17-18) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” 18 Mary Mag′da•lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” and that he said these things to her.
  (2 Corinthians 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,
  (Revelation 3:12) “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.
  (1 Peter 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
  (Revelation 3:12) “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

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  by Texasescimo on March 5th, 2010

• We both know those scriptures and we both believe Jesus is the son of God. The area where we don't agree is other scripture that point to Jesus also being God.

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  by jay on March 6th, 2010

• John 5:17-18 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
  
  John 10:30-33 “I and the Father are one.” Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
  
  Philippians 2:5-6 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

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  by jay on March 6th, 2010

• It was the nonbelieving jews that thought Jesus was making himself god in John 10:33. It was also the nonbelieving Jews at John 5:18 that thought: "calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.
  .
  We should not use the understanding of the unbelieving Jews such as John 10:30,33; John 5:18; to prove the Trinity.
  
  (John 10:30-36) I and the Father are one.” 31 Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?
  
  If you notice after Jesus said I and the Father are one at verse 30, It was the unreasoning Jews who thought he was making himself god, in verse 34, he referred to Psalms 82:6 (where Judges were said to be God's) in his defense and reiterated that he said that he was "God's Son". The meaning of oneness is clarified in verses such as John 17:11,21-22; 1Cor 1:10, Phil 2:2
  (John 17:11) “Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.
  (John 17:21-22) in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.
  (1 Corinthians 1:10) Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.
  (Philippians 2:2) make my joy full in that YOU are of the same mind and have the same love, being joined together in soul, holding the one thought in mind,

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  by Texasescimo on March 6th, 2010

• (John 5:17-20) But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” 18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. 19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that YOU may marvel.
  
  If you notice, it is the Jews in verse 18 that said Jesus was making himself equal to God. In verses 19-20,26,30, Jesus defends himself against that charge.
  
  
  (John 5:26) For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.
  (John 5:30) I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

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  by Texasescimo on March 6th, 2010

• It appears that you are using the NIV for Phil 2:6. In the footnote, it gives the proper translation. Compare it to your NAB and NJB.
  Phil 2:6 (NIV)Who, being in very nature* God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
  Footnote:
  * Or in the form of
  
  God is in a spirit form and Jesus was raised in the spirit.
  (John 4:24) God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”
  (1 Peter 3:18) Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.
  
  (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

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  by Texasescimo on March 6th, 2010

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• yes that early christianity...the doctrine of the Real Presence in the Eucharist has been around since the very beginning of the church. For the first several hundred years of Christianity the Real Presence was understood. It was taken for granted. It wasn't questioned. The early Christians didn't doubt Christ's true presence in the Eucharist. Quite the contrary.

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  by jay on January 15th, 2010

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