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Comments
Every other prediction made by a Republican has turned out wrong.
by Moongrim on December 2nd, 2009
You assume that I am a republican to I guess give me horns and an evil identity, but with that said lets review your statement, shall we. The right predicted that Obama is a socialist. I guess judging by his ownership of GM, Chrysler and virtually every bank in the US they were correct. The right predicted that Obama would be indecisive and flaky on military matters. In order for him to take 11 months to make a half hearted decision on Afghanistan and Iraq, I wouldn't exactly call him a Washington, Eisenhower and even Carter in his leadership skills. The right said that man-made global warming is mostly propaganda. Well I herd that they found about 1000 emails that say that the scientific community agrees with the rights assumption.
I can go on an on if you would like.
by Sodahead on December 3rd, 2009
OK, Payton. I guess that means you don't want to be invited to the wedding?
by ChrisDC on December 3rd, 2009
Well Payton, considering how much you brownose Bu$h, how are those Weapons of Mass Destruction working for ya?
by Moongrim on December 3rd, 2009
@Chris: Just because I don't think that gay "Marriage" should be sanctioned by the State, that in no way means that I would ever miss a moment that one of my friends are celebrating. Gay or not, you sir are my friend and I would do my very best to attend your event and in all likelihood have a great time.
@Moongrim: Now you and I have been butting(no pun intended) heads on here for a very long time and you know that I have been critical of the Bush administration for a lot of things. The only area that I can see were you might have a point in regards to "brownosing" are my views regarding Bush and leadership during 9/11. I think that he did a great job keeping America calm during that time.
by Sodahead on December 3rd, 2009
Good to know, Payton. And I'm not surprised.
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I do hope to someday get you to consider how general principles play out in the lives of individual people, but you're definitely still on the invite list.
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LOL.
by ChrisDC on December 3rd, 2009
Yeah too bad Bu$h had to learn the hard way with 9/11.
so let me get this straight. Republicans want the Government to NOT stick it's nose into people's private affairs, but it's OK for the Government to stick it's nose into the private affairs of Gay folks who want to get married?
by Moongrim on December 3rd, 2009
Again you're placing an assumption on the fact that I'm a republican, and I'm not. But I'll still answer your question being a right leaning person.
No one says that they can't get married. They can have a great wedding with all the bells, whistles and I'll bet they can even find a preacher that will do it for them. They can also go to the court house and get a Power of Attorney and a will to make it binding. And I personally don't have a bad thing to say about that. I think that this is a case of "but I want what they have" type of mentality.
by Sodahead on December 4th, 2009
Just for anyone who's reading this, as a gay guy, I can tell you that believing Payton is homophobic is as wrong as believing that he's a Republican. He's conservative, to be sure, but of the libertarian strain more than anything else. (He's also occasionally obnoxious, but the best friends are the ones who aren't afraid to call you on your mistakes or point out the weaknesses in your arguments.)
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So, having said that -- Payton, you're driving me nuts on this.
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"No one says they can't get married....I'll bet they can even find a preacher that will do it for them."
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Give me a freaking break.
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Marriage is a civil institution with rights and privileges (and responsibilities) laid out in the law. Marriage is also a religious sacrament. These two things are separate, and they ought to remain that way.
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You're saying that my partner/boyfriend/significant other/roommate/fiance and I can find a preacher who would marry us.
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(more)
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
You are absolutely right about that. I have a friend who is a minister who has told both me and my partner/boyfriend/significant other/roommate/fiance that he'll be ticked off if he doesn't get to officiate. (Making it more fun, he's also a flag officer in one of the U.S. military services.)
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Personally, I would prefer my cousin Ann to do the ceremony (she's a Methodist minister) and my partner/boyfriend/significant other/roommate/fiance would like his parish priest to do it. (My partner/boyfriend/significant other/roommate/fiance is Catholic.)
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But neither the Methodist Church nor the Roman Catholic Church recognize same-sex marriage. No matter how much I disagree, that is their constitutional right -- and I'll defend that to my dying breath.
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You also say that we can cobble together a network of legal agreements that you think would duplicate a legal marital relationship.
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(more)
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
On that, you are simply wrong. Period.
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There is no legal agreement Jose and I could sign that will alter local or federal tax policy. There is no legal agreement that Jose and I could sign that will alter the fact that his mother and father, and my mother and father, are our legally mandated next of kin.
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With regard to my parents, that is not a problem (I love 'em for that). With regard to his parents, the problem is huge.
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Now, we don't have to worry about immigration issues because Jose is from Puerto Rico and, like me, a native born U.S. citizen. Others are not so lucky.
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I know that you enjoy being snarky, and Lord knows I find it entertaining pretty frequently...but.
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There are three issues that I would be personally very grateful if you would consider.
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(more)
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
First, the civil institution of marriage is simply the government enforcing a well-defined contract voluntarily entered into by two consenting adults.
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My sister and her husband have access to that (and, wow, is he the kind of spouse you'd want your sister to have, or father you'd want your nieces and nephew to have, or what?).
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My sister and her husband, and me and my partner/boyfriend/significant other/roommate/fiance, ought to be able to be treated equally under the law. We're not.
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Second, that while Jose and I might be able to cobble together something that approximates marriage, that will cost us roughly $4,500 in legal fees. As opposed to a $30 marriage license fee. (How is that the equal protection of the law that we, as American citizens, should have the right to expect?)
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(more)
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
And, third, it is an extremely irritating Catch-22 that people (not you) oppose civil same-sex marriage on religious grounds, while civil marriage has nothing to do with religious marriage, and then explain it away by saying (accurately) that some religions do recognize same-sex marriage.
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So -- we can only have access to civil marriage if ALL religions in America would agree to bless our relationship? Because that's basically what same-sex marriage opponents are saying.
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It cannot be explained as a deference to a religious definition of marriage, bcause there are several churches who do recognize same-sex marriage. Therefore, opposition must be seen as giving every religious organization in America a veto right over what the legal status of our relationship should be.
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And...(more -- sorry)
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
I know that you personally approach this from a libertarian perspective -- and would argue that the government should have no role in determining who can marry whom.
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But this is the fundamental flaw in the libertarian argument: You can't keep the government out of marriage unless you also keep the government out of family law.
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Current law where I live defines my partner/boyfriend/significant other/roommate/fiance as, legally, a stranger to me.
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However, the law does recognize my biological family as my next of kin. It gives them the right to look out for my best interests if I'm incompetent to do so. It gives them standing to question things in court if they're worried my best interests aren't being pursued.
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So, you've got two options. Either the laws are changed to say that my parents are no different from random strangers pulled off the street in speaking on my behalf, or
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(more)
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
there has to be some mechanism for me to place my partner/boyfriend/significant other/roommate/fiance higher than them on the priority list.
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In terms of legal clarity, I think it becomes much easier if I can simply call my partner/boyfriend/significant other/roommate/fiance my husband, instead.
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I'm rambling. Sorry. But the bottom line is that so long as the law gives one person priority over another in speaking for me over someone else, there have to be rules about who's at the top of the list.
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The law right now says my parents occupy that spot.
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As a straight guy, you have the option of putting your wife in front of them on that list.
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As a gay guy, currently, I'm stuck. Now certainly I can sign a power of attorney that attempts to alter that, but my parents retaing their legal right to challenge that if they're worried.
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I actually don't have a problem with that, but
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(more)
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
Think about the Terri Schiavo case. Her parents disagreed with her husband's decision about her care, and whether the plug should be pulled -- and in a husband/parents dispute, despite the fact that family law clearly gives a spouse priority, they managed to tie things up in court for years. They even succeeded in elevating it to the floors of the chambers of Congress.
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Given the power of their position as parents, how do you think things would go if Jose were just my partner/boyfriend/significant other/roommate/fiance. It would be bad enough if he were simply my husband -- if he's permanently stuck with being word salad, his status would be basically nothing.
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I can't accept that.
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
Oh, and some idiot DR'd you on this answer. +6 to compensate, at least partially -- if others want to join in, please do. Payton's answer is still at -1 despite my best efforts.
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The thing is, I suspect we'll end up disagreeing on this, Payton, but for all your snarky attitude, I know you'll at least consider what I had to say.
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
Wow Chris I can tell that this is a very sensitive subject for you.
Yes we will in fact most likely disagree regarding this, but that does not take away from the fact that I still respect you. It is truly refreshing to finally get a comment with content not that I never do from you, but usually it's Moongrim with his drive-by senselessness.
Let the record show that I do agree with you on a lot of points in your comments the one thing that you were working hard at making glaringly obvious is the fact that you have no identity for the one that you love. That's really all the snarky comments that I will say. I will reserve the rest for someone that I don't like as much as I do you.
I would love to sit down and hash this out with a level headed thinking person like yourself, but an issue like this, one that you are very passionate about and I not so much. Could do damage to a friend and I have no intentions of doing that today or any other day for that matter.
Take care
by Sodahead on December 4th, 2009
Well, it's sensitive in the sense that I care about it a lot for very obvious personal reasons.
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Just so long as you know that I'm not overly-sensitive about it -- you've made it crystal clear that despite our disagreement on this particular issue, your opposition isn't even remotely hostile. You just have a different perspective.
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Since you did me the favor of reading through my extensive prologue, though, I'll summarize this quickly.
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So long as the government treats family differently from strangers (as it should), I should have the right to say who falls into which category with regard to me. As a straight guy, you get to include your spouse in the definition of family. As a gay guy, my spouse is barred from that definition.
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That's what it all boils down to.
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Again, that's just something that, as my friend, I'd appreciate your thinking about. (more)
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
As you said, this isn't an issue you care a lot about. But I do think of you as a friend, so if it's an issue you don't care a lot about in abstract, but which I care a whole lot about for some very personal, and very practical, reasons -- could you at least consider giving me your proxy on this one?
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Not in any legal sense -- but just in the sense that it's something that hits me personally in a way that it doesn't hit you.
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I just want to be treated the same as everybody else by the government to whom I pay the same taxes that everybody else pays. I know that, in this case, my concerns are outside the norm, or the usual. All I'm saying is I'd appreciate being cut some slack. LOL.
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Either way, you're still on the invite list for the wedding. :-)
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
One thing -- in your comment you said this:
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"...the one thing that you were working hard at making glaringly obvious is the fact that you have no identity for the one that you love."
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I don't know what that means. If you want his name, I can't give it to you on this site for obvious personal security reasons, but he's an actual person, not an abstraction of some sort. But I'd be happy to email you directly.
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009
No Chris, I was meaning well for example many people refer to their wives as the one that they love many other refer to their husband. You know what I could sit here and try to make it clear to explain it, but it's still not going to make any sense.
I'm working on my policy when Obama appoints me as freedom czar and I will place a special amendment in there for you and your loved one and you won't be disappointed.
by Sodahead on December 4th, 2009
OK, Peyton, you're in the black now. I know enough about you to know that you'd do just about anything for anyone as long as they show a spark of decency, except fer them sister-lovin' dog owners who board horses, but even they have more rights than gay folks. Leona Helmsley, being the humanitarian she was, left a cool 12 million to her dog for the cost of what she paid to draw up the will, freezing out family members in the process. That's just ONE person.
(yep, more)
by Phillis - Zacks little sister on December 4th, 2009
Can you imagine what family members would do to a gay partner (we can't call them spouses just yet. We're already dancing precariously close to the flames of hell for daring to call them partners)? Going even further, this little gem illustrates nicely the leeway afforded to pet owners with nary a second thought:
"Even someone who's generally demented can make a valid signature if she's having what's called a lucid moment."
http://www.slate.com/id/2173103/
by Phillis - Zacks little sister on December 4th, 2009
I'm not gay, and, being of the human variety, I don't march on Washington unless it is something that directly negatively affects my life (which was a huge mistake on my part). But wait! Here's a thought: It DOES affect my life (and not just because ChrisDC is my friend. Actually, he deserves more mention than this, but it ain't gonna happen right now. Chris.....Sit.....Stay)!
by Phillis - Zacks little sister on December 4th, 2009
In fact, it affects EVERYBODY's lives! Injustice, regardless of the issue, should piss you off to no end. Because I'm telling you as plainly as I know how that one day, your country will abandon you (or someone you love), and your "freedoms" will be effectively stripped from you for no other reason than you want something that somebody didn't like. And if that strikes you as absurd and petty, maybe that's because it is.
It happens for the simple reason that awareness is growing exponetially, while the government is still employing Elliot Ness mentalities.
by Phillis - Zacks little sister on December 4th, 2009
You do not know what it feels like to have your country work against you, but I assure you they are powerful enough to push you around, because you are nothing more than a fart in the wind to them. But by that time that happens, it is woefully too late to do anything about it! You should have been more invested in the injustices other people suffered, because boy......it sure could help you now. Now, I've assumed something that I am certain is totally foreign to you. An average guy who lives an average life with average wants and needs couldn't possibly raise the ire of his country, am I right? Hold off on the Amens, brother. Friendly warning............
by Phillis - Zacks little sister on December 4th, 2009
We could use a freedom czar right about now. Please expect to be assassinated promptly.
by Phillis - Zacks little sister on December 4th, 2009
I do believe that all my closest friends have turned on me. Oh the humanity....LOL
I have a ton of great examples that I would love to share on just the Helmsley example that you brought up Phillis, but like I told Chris I like both you and him too much to really get into a passionate argument about something that I'm not that passionate about.
But it's great to hear from you. How's everything on the home front?
by Sodahead on December 4th, 2009
I can answer that question pretty easily! Reread what I just wrote.
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I'm as average as they come, my smart friend. Comparitively speaking, I am as unremarkable as any other leaf on the tree. Never in a million years would I have thought, the things that have happened lately to my family and my bland little way of life, could possibly occur. I'm in a Quentin Tarantino version of It's A Wonderful Life.
by Phillis - Zacks little sister on December 4th, 2009
And I have not turned on you. That isn't part of our dynamic. The mistake I made was not caring about what happens to other people. Now I care. But it's too late.
by Phillis - Zacks little sister on December 4th, 2009
LOL....Now that sounds like a good movie. Take care of yourself.
by Sodahead on December 4th, 2009
Too late? It's never too late.
by Sodahead on December 4th, 2009
Hey, Payton -- sorry. I was offline for a bit. Just so you know, I don't feel like you turned on me, and I hope you don't think I turned on you.
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We've already established (and you've more than proven) that you wish me well -- the only thing we're talking about here is whether the law and society should show to people like me the consideration and respect that you personally have always shown me, personally.
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For whatever it's worth, I appreciate your honesty about how you feel about this issue. At the risk of telling you that you're helping the other side, I can field test arguments talking to you before I turn them out on the road in the real world. So your honest disagreement doesn't offend me in the slightest. It's helpful.
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And, Phillis, in your case I wish I actually was a fairy. If I had a magic wand and one wish, fixing your problem would beat out everything else on the "what to do" list.
by ChrisDC on December 4th, 2009