Did Three Wise Men Really Visit Baby Jesus?

Comments

• Wow! Komatsu. You raised a lot of questions in a short answer. (btw. I agree with a lot that you say)
  I will try and address them one at a time. It may take me a few days, however.(:>
  first...What year was Jesus born.
  It is established on competent authority that Artaxerxes I began reigning in 474 B.C.E. The Greek historian Thucydides, who lived during Artaxerxes’ time, says that General Themistocles fled from Greece to Asia when Artaxerxes had “lately come to the throne,” and not during the reign of his father Xerxes. The Greek biographer Plutarch of the first century C.E., and Nepos the Roman historian of the first century B.C.E., both support Thucydides on this point. Upon his arrival in Ephesus (in Asia Minor) this General Themistocles asked Artaxerxes’ permission to study the Persian language for one year before appearing before the king. Permission was granted, the appearance was made, and, according to the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus of the first century C.E., Themistocles died in 471 B.C.E.
  
  In harmony with this, his arrival in Asia, as shown in Jerome’s Eusebius, was in 473, which would put Artaxerxes on the throne in 474. This means that the twentieth year of this king’s reign fell in or overlapped on 455 B.C.E. Based on this and other historical evidence the noted scholar Ernst Wm. Hengstenberg (1802-1869) in his Christology of the Old Testament, translated from the German by Reuel Keith, Volume 2, page 389, says: “The twentieth year of Artaxerxes is the year 455 before Christ. . . . ” And with this Archbishop Ussher and others agree.
  
  So, with the issuing and applying of Artaxerxes’ famous decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem securely anchored to the year 455 B.C.E., the ending of the 483 years of waiting until Messiah made his appearance came in the latter half of 29 C.E. With all these facts, proof as to when Jesus’ baptism and anointing occurred certainly is not lacking.
  
  The fixing of Jesus’ baptism in the year 29 C.E., when he was thirty years old, also establishes the date of his birth as the year 2 B.C.E., in the fall. Jesus, then, was one year old in the fall of 1 B.C.E. There being no zero year, in the fall of the next year, 1 C.E., he was two years old, and in the fall of 29 C.E. he was thirty years old.
  
  Some chroniclers put the date of Jesus’ birth at 4 B.C.E., or even as early as 6 B.C.E., basing their conclusions on Josephus’ testimony that shortly before Herod’s death there was an eclipse of the moon. (Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVII, chap. VI, par. 4) It has been calculated that there was such an eclipse March 13, of the year 4 B.C.E., and so they say the Savior was born before that date, to allow for Herod’s order, calling for the killing of babies two years old and under, to be carried out.
  
  However, this is not sufficient proof for setting Jesus’ birth at 4 B.C.E., since eclipses of the moon are a rather common occurrence, in many years there being two eclipse seasons. More significant is Josephus’ statement that Herod died thirty-seven years after being made king by the Romans. (Antiquities, Book XVII, chap. VIII, par. 1) Actually, Herod did not capture Jerusalem and begin his reign as king until the summer of 38 B.C.E. So if Josephus dated Herod’s reign from the capture of the city, and when he actually began ruling as king, and not from when the Roman senate gave their consent three years earlier, then it brings us to 1 B.C.E. as the year of Herod’s death. This easily allows time for Jesus’ birth in the fall of 2 B.C.E., the visit by the Chaldean astrologers, and for the slaughter of the innocent babes of Bethlehem.—Matt. 2:1-18.

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  by vew573 on December 9th, 2010

• Was Jesus a real historical person?
  
  I would say that the ignominious execution of Jesus as a contemptible criminal provides “the most convincing argument against opponents of the historicity of Jesus,” states Trilling. Why? Because the execution “encumbered, even hindered, the dispersion of the new faith among Jews and non-Jews.” (Compare 1 Corinthians 1:23) If the execution of Jesus the Messiah was such an effrontery to both Jews and Gentiles, it hardly would have been an invention of the apostles! Furthermore, Jesus’ death is attested to as an historical event not only by the four Gospels but also by the Roman writer Tacitus and by the Jewish Talmud.”
  
  Other events during Jesus’ life are also viewed as internal evidence of the credibility of the Gospels, hence of what they tell us about him. For example, would the followers of Jesus have fabricated his coming from Nazareth, a place seemingly out of favor? Or is it likely that they would have invented his betrayal by Judas, a trusted companion? Does it seem realistic to think that they would have made up a story about Jesus’ being abandoned by the rest of the disciples in such a cowardly manner? It is surely illogical that the disciples would have constructed particulars so detrimental in nature and then proclaimed them far and wide!
  
  In addition, the art of teaching employed by Jesus was characterized by a unique style. Jewish literature of the first century contains nothing comparable to his illustrations. Which anonymous person could ever have “invented” such a masterpiece as the Sermon on the Mount? These arguments all tend to corroborate the trustworthiness of the Gospels as reports of Jesus’ life.
  
  There is also external evidence for the historicity of Jesus. The four Gospels portray him against a specific, accurately detailed, historical background. Places, such as Bethlehem and Galilee; prominent individuals and groups, such as Pontius Pilate and the Pharisees; as well as Jewish customs and other peculiarities were not simply concocted. They formed part of the structure of life in the first century, and they have been confirmed by non-biblical sources and by archaeological findings.
  
  There is, thus, convincing evidence, both internal and external, that Jesus is a historical person. Of course those who want to believe otherwise will continue to do so...And, since everyone is a free moral agent, what we will believe is for everyone to decide for themselves.

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  by vew573 on December 9th, 2010

• Jesus didn't ever exist, so all the stories about him are just fiction. It's useless for Trilling or anyone else to argue about crude fiction. Tacitus and the Talmud don't prove anything about Jesus' existence, and neither do Seutonius, Pliny the Younger, etc. The 4 gospels have many contradictions and some ignorannce of history, so they are proved to be fiction. Matthew says Joseph lived in Bethlehem, but Luke says Joseph lived in Nazareth and only went to Bethlehem for Quirinius' census. You can't apologize for that and many more items Miss Komatsu or I could mention. You call Sermon on the Mount a masterpiece, but I don't. Some of the details are wrong. You're only reading apologists' lies, so you'll never learn the truth. What was Pontius Pilate's exact title? Some get that wrong? The 007 novels have accurate details about London, Jamaica, Turkey, etc., so according to you, James Bond is a real man. Come on now, you surely don't expect Miss Komatsu or me to swallow such drivel do you? There's no convincing evidence that Jesus was a real man and much that he was fiction. "The Case Against Christianity", "Atheist Universe", "The End of Faith", "The God Delusion" and such books refute all of your apologies you mindlessly paste here. You're wasting time with that. I belong to some of Mis Komatsu's websites. She is a talented lady from Fukushima, Japan. Her boyfriend is the maternal grandson of a Christian pastor, and he took Philosophy with world religions and Bible classes in college, so you're a crude amateur compared to him.

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  by JeffreyB on December 10th, 2010

• Hi Jeffery..Like I said before, believe whatever you like. Never would I try to force feed anyone...I simply responded to an answer to my post. Is this not what this site is all about? Peace. (:>

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  by vew573 on December 10th, 2010

• Cornelius Tacitus (55-120CE or AD) write "Annals", at 15.44 of them he say "...Christus who in the reign of Tiberius had suffered death by the sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate." "Christus" is Latin version of Greek "Christos" or Jewish "Messiah" mean "Annointed One". He not say Jesus, and Talmud, Flavius Josephus' "Antiquities...", more histories tell of many men call themselves "Messiah", ergo this "Annals" passage not prove anything of Jesus. Pontius Pilate is prefect not procurator, are no procurators at Pontius Pilate's time. This error indicate Tacitus-san just copy Jewish writings or Jews forge this passage at his history.

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  by Komatsu on December 12th, 2010

• Many scholars say Talmud tell what rabbis think of Jesus 70 years or more after he supposedly die. Rabbis only see then current Christian accounts, have no independent ones of their own. Talmud tell of Yeshu ben Pantera, crucified 126BCE, whose mother was Mary Magdala; also mention Yeshu the Nazarene live when Alexander Jannaeus rule Palestine 104-78BC. Is likely tales of Jesus copy these men, are too early of Jesus however. Jewish historiess Talmud and Tol'doth Jeshu prove nothing of Jesus.

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  by Komatsu on December 12th, 2010

• Seutonius write "The Lives Of The Caesars" about 120 CE or AD, it mention Jewish agitator named Chrestus, 49CE or AD Claudius expel them at Rome. Chrestus is common Greek name, different of Christus, ergo this prove nothing of Jesus. Other Roman writings of Thallus, Celsus, Pliny the Younger prove nothing of Jesus either. Skeptics refute all believers' citations try prove Jesus exist. Is only New Testament, it have many contradictions, show tales of Jesus evolve over time, ergo it indicate Jesus is only fiction.

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  by Komatsu on December 12th, 2010

• Thanks for your response Komatsu.. Quote: "Cornelius Tacitus (55-120CE or AD) write "Annals", at 15.44 of them he say "...Christus who in the reign of Tiberius had suffered death by the sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate." Pontius Pilate is prefect not procurator, are no procurators at Pontius Pilate's time. This error indicate Tacitus-san just copy Jewish writings or Jews forge this passage at his history."
  
  Procurator vs. Prefect: An Ineffectual Argument Against Tacitus
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  Two reasons may be cited for why this is a non-issue:
  
  1. Evidence indicates that there was a certain fluidity in the usage of these terms.
  
  2. Tacitus may have been anachronizing on purpose.
  
  We should first consider the difference between these two titles. A procurator, as the word implies, was a financial administrator who acted as the emperor's personal agent. A prefect was a military official.
  
  1. What evidence is there for the easy interchange of these terms? Meier notes that in a "backwater province" like Judea, there was probably not much difference between the two roles. This assertion is backed up by literary evidence. Philo and Josephus were not consistent in the usage of the terms either: Josephus calls Pilate a "procurator" in Antiquities 18.5.6, the story about Pilate bringing images into Jerusalem. (It has not been suggested, but we may wonder if, in a backwater like Judea, Pilate may have held both titles!) In practical terms, "both the procurators and prefects in Judea had the power to execute criminals who were not Roman citizens." Practically, in this context, "A difference that is no difference, is no difference."
  
  (I'm not sure why you would say that there were no procurators in Jesus time. In my research, I found many references.)
  
  2. Tacitus may have used an anachronistic term for his own reasons. The first reason may have been to avoid confusion. Sanders cites inscriptional evidence that the position held by Pilate was called "prefect " in 6-41 A.D., but "procurator" in the years 44-66, so he deduces that Tacitus was simply using the term with which his readers would be most familiar. (This is a far better point than we may realize: Being that Tacitus' readers were--like he had been--members of the Senate and holders of political office, we must suppose that this "error" escaped not only Tacitus' attention, but theirs as well. We may as well suggest that a United States Senate historian's error of the same rank would pass without comment.
  
  The second reason for this use of terminology may be deliberate anachronizing on Tacitus' part. Scholars Christina Shuttleworth Kraus and Anthony John Woodman note that Tacitus often uses "archaizing, rare or obsolete vocabulary" and also "avoids, varies or 'misuses' technical terms." They do not cite the prefect/procurator issue specifically, but it is worth asking, in light of this comment, if the usage might not have been simply part of Tacitus' normal practice.
  
  All of the above, therefore--along with the fact that this is not cited by Tactiean scholars as a problem--shows that there is certainly no grounds for charging Tacitus with error or degrading the reference to Jesus because of the alleged procurator/prefect mixup.

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  by vew573 on December 12th, 2010

• Quote: “He not say Jesus, and Talmud, Flavius Josephus' "Antiquities...", more histories tell of many men call themselves "Messiah", ergo this "Annals" passage not prove anything of Jesus.”
  
  Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome's fire of 64 A.D.:
  “But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: ( Jesus Christ was the founder of the name Christians. Therefore, this could refer to no other than the Jesus Christ.)

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  by vew573 on December 12th, 2010

• Reference to "Christus": An Ineffectual Argument Against Tacitus.
  
  “Quote: “Seutonius write "The Lives Of The Caesars" about 120 CE or AD, it mention Jewish agitator named Chrestus, 49CE or AD Claudius expel them at Rome. Chrestus is common Greek name, different of Christus, ergo this prove nothing of Jesus.”
  
  Rather than find some deficiency in Tacitus because of this, it is more plausible to recognize that Tacitus would use the name with which his readers would be most familiar--and that would not necessarily be the name that Jesus was executed under. Furthermore, simply referring to "Jesus" would not explain how it is that Jesus' followers were named Christians; Robert Van Voorst further makes the point that Tacitus is actually issuing a subtle corrective here! The text of the oldest manuscript, and most likely reading, spells "Christians" with an e ("Chrestians"). In naming "Christ," Tacitus "is correcting, in a way typical of his style of economy, the misunderstanding of the 'crowd' (vulgus) by stating that the 'founder of this name'...is Christus, not the common name given by the crowd, Chrestus...he calls attention by his somewhat unusual phrase to the nomen of the movement in order to link it directly--and correctly--to the name of Christ."

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  by vew573 on December 12th, 2010

• A Reliable Reference to a Historical Jesus
  
  Quote: “Flavius Josephus' (37-95CE or AD) history "Antiquities of the Jews" have 121 word passage of Jesus. Scholars know is later forgery of Christians however. Christian writers, e.g. Origen (185-254CE or AD) not know passage exist, Origen know this history well, ergo someone obviously add passage after Origen's time. Passage out of context and break flow of writing, skillful writer not be so crude. Passage obviously written by Christian is favorable of Jesus, Josephus-san is not Christian, is Pharasaic Jew, ergo he not write such praise of Jesus. Overall, passage quite different of anything Josephus-san really write many ways, ergo is obviously quite poor forgery Christians add about 300 years after authors time. Christians have tradition of deceit since beginning of their religion"
  
  
  There are two quotes that mention Jesus in Josephus' Antiquities. Here is the first:
  
  But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned (Antiquities 20.9.1).
  
  Here is the second quote:
  
  Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18.3.3).
  
  This reference is of particular value because Josephus, as a native of Palestine in the middle to late first century, is quite close to the source, as it were. He is considered a reliable historian overall (though not as reliable as Tacitus).
  
  
  An Inadequate Argument Against Josephus' Testimony
  
  
  The primary argument against the use of Josephus' testimony is the charge that his work has been interpolated, that is, that Christian scribes added some material.
  
  In the case of the shorter text, there is no evidence for this. The designation of James as the "brother of Jesus" contrasts with Christian practice of referring to him as the "brother of the Lord" or "brother of the Savior" (as in Gal. 1:19 in the NT and Eusebius in later history). The emphasis of the passage is not on Jesus or even James, but on Ananus the high priest and the turbulence he caused. There is no praise for James or Jesus. This is not what we would expect if this were an interpolation. Josephus' account of James being stoned is different from the account given by the church historian Hegesippus, who has James being thrown from the roof of the Temple. This would be an unlikely move for an interpolator. Finally, neither this passage nor the larger one connects Jesus with John the Baptist, as we would expect from a Christian interpolator.
  
  The larger passage is a different story. Let's look at it again, a different way, as it actually appears in Josephus:
  
  Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third

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  by vew573 on December 12th, 2010

• ooPs! I copied and pasted my reply from word and got cut off.
  Continued:
  day as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18.3.3).
  
  That there are interpolations here is seldom questioned; very few scholars hold that the entirety of the passage is genuine. The items in bold are what are considered interpolations. The remainder is widely considered genuine by Josephan scholars.
  

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  by vew573 on December 12th, 2010

• Domatsu...I am not posting personal opinion. You obviously have decided what you want to believe, and I have no problem with that. Please have a nice day.

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  by vew573 on December 20th, 2010

• Like I said on my other post Komatsu. We disagree. I feel comfortable with that. I disagree with a lot of people. It's not up to me to judge them. Nice talking with you. Have a nice day.

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  by vew573 on January 5th, 2011

• Hi Komatsu,
  
  You are right about right about some of your facts regarding the uncertain birth date of Jesus, that the "wise men" were Magi or astronomers but you are mistaken about Jesus never existing. Secular non-Christian historians from the first-century "acknowledge" his existence and that he was indeed a real person although they do not accept him as the Son of God.

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  by nick batchelor on January 7th, 2011

• There's no good reason to accept Jesus as a real person. There's no real proof he ever existed, but there's much evidence indicating he's just bad fiction. The Bible shows the tales about him changed over time. There are several men he might be based on, and then, fiction to support old predictions and copies of lod myths were added. Some of the histories are vague and some are forgeries. skeptics have refuted the claims that Josephus, Seutonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, etc, prove Jesus existed.

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  by JeffreyB on January 11th, 2011

• Thanks for sharing us your opinion Jeffrey. Can you help me? Where does "the Bible" show the tales about him (Jesus) "changed" over time?
  
  There is evidence that the most influential man in history did exist despite your claim. Yes, you will find critics in just about anything. Some deny the holocaust, others tell us that man never walked the moon! We hear their cries too.
  
  After summarizing the references to Jesus Christ and his followers by the historians of the first two centuries, The Encyclopædia Britannica (2002 edition) concludes: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.”

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  by nick batchelor on January 11th, 2011

• There's no real evidence that Jesus existed. There are some claims that skeptics have refuted. Paul doesn't know many of the rules Jesus supposedly gave people according to Matthew, Luke, etc. Matthew and Luke give conflicting lineages from David to Joseph and Jesus, but then they back off and say Jesus was born of a virgin. There's no reason to list Joseph's lineage if he's not Jesus' father. Keeping that in their accounts only reveals that Jesus was originally Joseph's son and was thus the Messiah in the version Paul probably invented. The idea of virgin birth is copied from many older myths, and someone decided to add that some years after the first version of the story was invented. It's poor writing and laziness to leave it in there, since it shows skeptics what happened.

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  by JeffreyB on January 18th, 2011

• .Quote: “ Matthew and Luke give conflicting lineages from David to Joseph and Jesus, but then they back off and say Jesus was born of a virgin. There's no reason to list Joseph's lineage if he's not Jesus' father.”
  
  Actually, Luke traces the natural lineage of Jesus through his fleshly mother Mary and her ancestors, while Matthew gives Jesus “LEGAL LINAGE” through his adoptive father Joseph and his ancestors.
  
  By this they show that Jesus had both a natural and legal right to the throne of David. Off whom, both this mother and adoptive father were descendants.

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  by vew573 on January 18th, 2011

• Hi "vew573,"
  
  That is the accurate, FULL truth. In the Bible Encyclopedia, "Insight on the Scriptures" (page 917) under "Genealogy of Jesus Christ," it made this outstanding point:
  
  "We may conclude, therefore, that the two lists of Matthew and Luke fuse together the two truths, namely, (1) that Jesus was actually the Son of God and the natural heir to the Kingdom by miraculous birth through the virgin girl Mary, of David’s line, and (2) that Jesus was also the legal heir in the male line of descent from David and Solomon through his adoptive father Joseph. (Luke 1:32, 35; Romans 1:1-4) If there was any accusation made by hostile Jews that Jesus’ birth was illegitimate, the fact that Joseph, aware of the circumstances, married Mary and gave her the protection of his good name and royal lineage refutes such slander."

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  by nick batchelor on January 18th, 2011

• Hello "JeffreyB,"
  
  Again, I agree with you that there are "some" claims about Jesus that are not verifiable, in fact, some have been exaggerated. But this does not diminish the fact that there is overpowering evidence that Jesus did indeed exist! I am not trying to convince you who the man was, (personally I do not accept that he was God as many in Christendom teach or that he was part of a pagan Trinity. Another discussion.) However, he did exist. This is undeniable if we have done an unbiased, objective search.
  
  “Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed..." Graham Stanton, Professor Stanton occupies the chair in New Testament Studies at Cambridge University.
  
  What do contemporary historians say?
  
  Michael Grant- In his book Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels, Atheist historian Michael Grant completely rejected the idea that Jesus never existed.
  
  “This sceptical way of thinking reached its culmination in the argument that Jesus as a human being never existed at all and is a myth.... But above all, if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. Certainly, there are all those discrepancies between one Gospel and another. But we do not deny that an event ever took place just because some pagan historians such as, for example, Livy and Polybius, happen to have described it in differing terms.... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary.”
  
  Will Durant- Secular scholar Will Durant, who left the Catholic Church and embraced humanism, also dismisses the idea in Caesar and Christ (the third volume of his Story of Civilization) states:
  “The Christian evidence for Christ begins with the letters ascribed to Saint Paul. Some of these are of uncertain authorship; several, antedating A.D. 64, are almost universally accounted as substantially genuine. No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had known Christ in his flesh. The accepted epistles frequently refer to the Last Supper and the Crucifixion.... The contradictions are of minutiae, not substance; in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ. In the enthusiasm of its discoveries the Higher Criticism has applied to the New Testament tests of authenticity so severe that by them a hundred ancient worthies, for example Hammurabi, David, Socrates would fade into legend. Despite the prejudices and theological preconceptions of the evangelists, they record many incidents that mere inventors would have concealed the competition of the apostles for high places in the Kingdom, their flight after Jesus' arrest, Peter's denial, the failure of Christ to work miracles in Galilee, the references of some auditors to his possible insanity, his early uncertainty as to his mission, his confessions of ignorance as to the future, his moments of bitterness, his despairing cry on the cross; no one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them.
  
  ...continuing

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  by nick batchelor on January 18th, 2011

• -continued
  
  Will Durant when on to say this profound statement, "That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so loft an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospel. After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the life, character, and teaching of Christ, remain reasonably clear, and constitute the most fascinating feature of the history of Western man.”
  
  Rudolf Bultmann- Even the famously liberal Professor Bultmann, who argued against the historicity of much of the gospels had this to say:
  
  “Of course the doubt as to whether Jesus really existed is unfounded and not worth refutation. No sane person can doubt that Jesus stands as founder behind the historical movement whose first distinct stage is represented by the Palestinian community.”
  
  Robert Van Voorst- It is also obvious that the diverse and all but completely unanimous opinion of modern Jesus scholars and relevant historians remain completely unconvinced by the Jesus Myth arguments. Robert Van Voosrt writes in Jesus Outside the New Testament:
  
  “Contemporary New Testament scholars have typically viewed their arguments as so weak or bizarre that they relegate them to footnotes, or often ignore them completely.... The theory of Jesus' nonexistence is now effectively dead as a scholarly question.”
  
  Graham Stanton- Professor Stanton occupies the chair in New Testament Studies at Cambridge University and led the attack on Carston Theide's re-dating of the Jesus Papyrus. He considers the Jesus Myth crowd even more extreme as he writes in The Gospels and Jesus:
  
  “Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which as to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher.”
  
  Jeff, there is little likelihood that Jesus' claims are legend. There just wasn't enough time for any legendary development of the story to replace what really happened. For instance, we now know that the Gospels were written 30 to 50 years after the death of Jesus. More dramatically, we now date some of the early Christian writings, proclaiming the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, to 3 to 10 years after His impalement. This includes Paul's letters to the Corinthians, Romans and Galatians.
  
  Finally, if Jesus' claim to be the Son of God was a myth, the early Jewish opponents of Christianity would surely have presented the fact that these claims never happened. Unlike modern skeptics, the Jewish rabbis never denied that Jesus made the claim that He was the Son of God. Instead, they called Him a liar, and tried Him for blasphemy.

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  by nick batchelor on January 18th, 2011

• Some good points Nick. I remember reading much of what you post...However, some of the references are new to me. Thanks.

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  by vew573 on January 19th, 2011

• Thanks! I just hope Jeffrey will at least be fair and reasonable as he forms his personal conclusion.
  
  Would you, Jeff, and anyone who questions the existence of Jesus Christ please listen to the first part of this talk? Thank you.
  
  http://johnlennox.org/index.php/en/resource/a_lecture_on_the_new_atheism/

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  by nick batchelor on January 19th, 2011

• Both Matthew and Luke say the lineages they give are for Joseph, so neither is for Mary. Anyone who says "Joseph" means "Mary" in the Bible only destroys any idea one might have that the Bible has some meaning. If someone says Joseph but means Mary in it, then God can mean Devil and vice versa. There is no evidence that Jesus was a real man. There is no evidence to consider about it.

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  by MegumiS on January 20th, 2011

• You are distorting the facts. Joseph was simply Jesus' foster father. What the Bible foretold is that the Messiah would come from the family line of King David. (Psalm 132:11, 12; Isaiah 11:1, 10)
  
  Matthew’s Gospel begins: “The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham.” Matthew backs up this bold claim by tracing Jesus’ descent through the line of his adoptive father, Joseph. (Matthew 1:1-16)
  
  Luke’s Gospel traces Jesus’ lineage through his natural mother, Mary, back through David and Abraham to Adam. (Luke 3:23-38) The Gospel writers thoroughly document their claim that Jesus was an heir of David, both in a legal and in a natural sense.
  
  There is plenty of overpowering evidence to consider but some people simply choose to look the other way. All the prophecies written about the Messiah all point to Jesus. If not him, then who? Please tell me.

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  by nick batchelor on January 20th, 2011

• Quote from MegumiS post: "Both Matthew and Luke say the lineages they give are for Joseph, so neither is for Mary. Anyone who says "Joseph" means "Mary" in the Bible only destroys any idea one might have that the Bible has some meaning. If someone says Joseph but means Mary in it, then God can mean Devil and vice versa."
  
  McClintook and Strong's Cyclopfdia (1882, Volume 111, page 773, column 2. Explains why Joseph is listed as the son of Heli..rather than saying that Mary was the daughter of Heli.
  
  This was because the Jews reckoned wholly by males, rejecting where the blood of the grandfather (Heli) passed to the grandson (Jesus) through a daughter (Mary), and counting the (daughter's husband...Joseph) for the son of Heli, the maternal grandfather of Jesus.
  
  Keeping with this rule, Joseph's name would replace Mary's in Luke's account even though the geneology there was traced through Mary's linage.
  
  The Cyclopedia says: "The evangecal Luke has critically distinguished the real from the legal geneology by a parenthetical remark: "Jesus being (as was reputed) the son of Joseph (but in reality) the son of Heli, or his grandson by his mother's side.

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  by vew573 on January 20th, 2011

• I've read some books too. You people only look at anything thta seems to support you hasty beliefs and ignore anything thta doesn't. I spend my time on books by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, David Mills, Michael Martin, Sam Harris, etc. who know the Bible is just very bad primitive fiction. The Bible certainly sys both Matthew and Luke give descents for Joseph. This contived drivel about one being for Mary is nonsense. It's sad that anyone would spend so much time "gilding a cowpat". I saw a man buy a tumbledown shack in the country and spend thousands of dollars putiing new stuff on it to hide the decrepit existing house. When he finisj hed, he only ahd a miserable shcak with new wallpaer, etc. The bible is fi ull of real contradictions and denying oit as as useless as putting new wllpaper on a flimsy old shack.

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  by JeffreyB on January 23rd, 2011

• Bold statement Jeff. Here's a friendly challenge. Name 3 Bible contradictions and let's examine them together. I'm waiting.

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  by nick batchelor on January 23rd, 2011

• This "nick batchelor" has an inflated opinion of his cleverness I see. The contradictions about Joseph's ancestry has been listed, and is a big one that your feeble excsues do not explain. Your "challenge" does not sound friendly to me. In any case, I have seen Jeffrey and Komatsu-san give dozens of contradictions and scientific errors in the Bible. The sources that View573 gives are "osu no kuso" that mean nothing to any objective person. I see Vie573 says she and Komar tsu-san disagree. That is obvious, because View573 is badly biased and thus wants to believe one book of primitive fiction is true, while Komatsu-san is objective.

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  by MegumiS on January 24th, 2011

• View573 says she and Komatsu-san disagree, but they do agree upon one thing, and that is to totally ignore the Bible. Matthew and Luke disagree radically about Jesus' date of birth, i.e. by possibly 25 years. They disagree about where Joseph and Mary lived. Both God and the Devil were blamed for David's census. I can copy many more from various books and websites. View573 copies piles of "osu no kuso" from a few apologists' writings that make no sense. Since the apologists here copy volumes from apologists' feeble excuses, Jeffrey should copy much from Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" too. View573 and nick batchelor prove to me that the Bible is only very bad primitive fiction. If I was going to be religious, I would choose Michi no Kami (Shinto in Chinese) and Buddhism that is tolerant, while Christianity and Islam are quite intolerant.

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  by MegumiS on January 24th, 2011

• Wow! Strong words Komatsu. First of all, I haven't insulted anybody. You are getting carried away. Calling me "a monster" is incredible. Who is being judgmental? We can disagree with each others position or viewpoint but language like this is not civil, in fact unacceptable. And what does your secular career and how much money you make have to do about anything? It certainly doesn't prove or disprove if you are a good person. I am sure you are but this does not pertain to anything.
  
  You seem to be unaware of the FULL FACTS that many respected, scientists, do believe in a Creator. Prominent academics and scientists who have gone on record as subscribing to the idea of “an Intelligent Designer” include Phillip E. Johnson, who teaches law at the University of California, Berkeley; biochemist Michael J. Behe, author of the book Darwin’s Black Box—The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution; mathematician William A. Dembski; philosopher of logic Alvin Plantinga; physicists John Polkinghorne and Freeman Dyson; astronomer Allan Sandage; and others too numerous to list.
  
  Please get a hold of yourself and come back to a calm discussion.

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  by nick batchelor on January 25th, 2011

• Many experts in various scientific fields perceive intelligent design in nature. They find it illogical to think that the intricate complexity of life on earth came about by chance. Hence, a number of scientists and researchers believe in a Creator. Below are a few examples.
  
  ▪ WOLF-EKKEHARD LÖNNIG
  PROFILE: Over the past 28 years, I have done scientific work dealing with genetic mutation in plants. For 21 of those years, I have been employed by the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research, in Cologne, Germany
  My empirical research in genetics and my studies of biological subjects such as physiology and morphology bring me face-to-face with the enormous and often unfathomable complexities of life. My study of these topics has reinforced my conviction that life, even the most basic forms of life, must have an intelligent origin.
  The scientific community is well aware of the complexity found in life. But these fascinating facts are generally presented in a strong evolutionary context. In my mind, however, the arguments against the Bible account of creation fall apart when subjected to scientific scrutiny. I have examined such arguments over decades. After much careful study of living things and consideration of the way the laws governing the universe seem perfectly adjusted so that life on earth can exist, I am compelled to believe in a Creator.
  “Everything I Observe Has a Cause”
  
  ▪ BYRON LEON MEADOWS
  PROFILE: I live in the United States and work at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the field of laser physics. Presently I am involved in the development of technology to improve the ability to monitor global climate, weather, and other planetary phenomena
  In my research I often work with the principles of physics. I seek to understand how and why certain things happen. In my field of study, I find clear evidence that everything I observe has a cause. I believe that it is scientifically reasonable to accept that God is the original cause of all things in nature. The laws of nature are too stable for me not to believe that they were put in place by an Organizer, a Creator.
  If this conclusion is that obvious, why do so many scientists believe in evolution? Might it be that evolutionists look at their evidence with presupposed conclusions? This is not unheard of among scientists. But observation, no matter how convincing, does not presuppose conclusion. For example, a person researching laser physics could insist that light is a wave, similar to a sound wave, because light often behaves like a wave. However, his conclusion would be incomplete because the evidence also indicates that light behaves as a group of particles, known as photons. Similarly, those who insist that evolution is a fact base their conclusions on only part of the evidence, and they allow their own presupposed conclusions to influence the way that they view the evidence.
  I find it amazing that anyone accepts the theory of evolution as fact when evolutionary “experts” themselves argue over how it is supposed to have happened. For example, would you accept arithmetic as a proved fact if some experts said that 2 plus 2 equals 4, while other experts said it was believed to total 3 or possibly 6?

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  by vew573 on January 31st, 2011

• “Something Cannot Come From Nothing”
  
  KENNETH LLOYD TANAKA
  PROFILE: I am a geologist presently employed by the U.S. Geological Survey in Flagstaff, Arizona. For almost three decades, I have participated in scientific research in various fields of geology, including planetary geology. Dozens of my research articles and geologic maps of Mars have been published in accredited scientific journals
  
  I was taught to believe in evolution, but I could not accept that the immense energy required to form the universe could have originated without a powerful Creator. Something cannot come from nothing. I also find a strong argument in favor of a Creator in the Bible itself. This book gives numerous examples of scientific facts in my field of expertise, such as that the earth is spherical in shape and hangs “upon nothing.” (Job 26:7; Isaiah 40:22) These realities were written in the Bible long before they were proved by human investigation.
  
  Think of the way we are made. We possess sensory perception, self-awareness, intelligent thought, communication abilities, and feelings. In particular, we can experience, appreciate, and express love. Evolution cannot explain how these wonderful human qualities came to be.
  Ask yourself, ‘How reliable and credible are the sources of information used to support evolution?’ The geologic record is incomplete, complex, and confusing. Evolutionists have failed to demonstrate proposed evolutionary processes in the laboratory with the use of scientific methodologies. And while scientists generally employ good research techniques to acquire data, they are often influenced by selfish motives when interpreting their findings. Scientists have been known to promote their own thinking when the data are inconclusive or contradictory. Their careers and their own feelings of self-worth play important roles.
  Both as a scientist and as a Bible student, I search for the whole truth, which reconciles all known facts and observations to reach the most accurate understanding. To me, belief in the Creator makes the most sense.
  
  “The Obvious Design Evident in the Cell”
  ▪ PAULA KINCHELOE
  PROFILE: I have several years of experience as a researcher in the fields of cell and molecular biology and microbiology. I am presently employed by Emory University, in Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A
  
  As part of my education in biology, I spent four years focusing on just the cell and its components. The more I learned about DNA, RNA, proteins, and metabolic pathways, the more amazed I became with the complexity, organization, and precision involved. And while I was impressed with how much man has learned about the cell, I was even more amazed at how much there is yet to learn. The obvious design evident in the cell is one reason I believe in God.
  
  My study of the Bible has revealed who the Creator is—namely, Jehovah God. I am convinced that he is not only an intelligent Designer but also a kind and loving Father who cares for me. The Bible explains the purpose of life and provides the hope of a happy future.
  
  Young ones in school who are being taught evolution may be unsure of what to believe. This can be a confusing time for them. If they believe in God, this is a test of faith. But they can meet that test by examining the many amazing things in nature that surround us and by continuing to grow in knowledge of the Creator and his qualities. I have personally done this and have concluded that the Bible’s account of creation is accurate and does not conflict with true science.

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  by vew573 on January 31st, 2011

• “The Elegant Simplicity of the Laws”
  ▪ ENRIQUE HERNÁNDEZ-LEMUS
  PROFILE: I am a full-time minister of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am also a theoretical physicist working at the National University of Mexico. My current work involves finding a thermodynamically feasible explanation for the phenomenon known as the gravothermal catastrophe, which is a mechanism of star growth. I have also worked with complexity in DNA sequences.
  Life is simply too complicated to have arisen by chance. For example, consider the vast amount of information contained in the DNA molecule. The mathematical probability of the random generation of a single chromosome is less than 1 in 9 trillion, an event so unlikely that it can be considered impossible. I think it is nonsense to believe that unintelligent forces could create not just a single chromosome but all the amazing complexity present in living beings.
  In addition, when I study the highly complex behavior of matter, from the microscopic level to the movement of giant stellar clouds through space, I am impressed by the elegant simplicity of the laws governing their motion. To me, these laws imply more than the work of a Master Mathematician—they are like the signature of a Master Artist.
  People are often surprised when I tell them that I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Sometimes they ask me how I can believe in God. Their reaction is understandable, since most religions do not encourage their believers to ask for proof of what they are taught or to research their beliefs. However, the Bible encourages us to use our “thinking ability.” (Proverbs 3:21) All the evidence of intelligent design in nature, together with evidence from the Bible, convinces me that God not only exists but is also interested in our prayers.

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  by vew573 on January 31st, 2011

• Please watch this brief 7 minute video clip A college professor believed evolution for the first half of his life. He decided to take a look at the assumptions that are necessary for evolution to be true.
  
  He explains from just 2 scientific points of view why he decided that evolution is a 'faith-based system' {to quote him} and he could no longer have faith in it.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHsgRO3OOUY&feature=related

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  by nick batchelor on February 1st, 2011

• Is there scientific dissent from Darwinism?
  
  http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=660

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  by nick batchelor on February 1st, 2011

• Kobayashi-san, Intelligence requires intelligence. These are the facts around us. The smallest molecule has bewildering complexity.
  I believe in that Science has proved adaptation within a kind, sometimes called "microevolution," is clearly evident.
  
  For instance, the ability of microorganisms and viruses to adapt quickly to changes to their surroundings is essential to their survival. But they stay within their kind, and their adaptability is never so radical, even over the course of time, to change them into a higher form of life.
  
  I believe there is "built in adaptation" and that it doesn't produce entirely new species. I know you took a science class in college but please do not ignore the reality of many scientists accepting a Designer, not accident, as the reason for life as we know it. Perhaps, you have not yet heard all the evidence.
  
  One more thing to add, not all "creationists" believe the universe was created in 7 literal days. That is ridiculous and is not what the Bible really teaches.

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  by nick batchelor on February 1st, 2011

• "Intelligence requires intelligence", so God couldn't be here. Special pleading is illogical. No reputable scientists accept a designer. The majority of them are atheists. The Bible says the universe was created in 7 LITERAL DAYS. It speaks of the evening and the morning of the days, and the word used is for 24 hour day. What the Bible says is indeed "ridiculous" as Nick says. At last, he and I agree. We also agree about ignoring the Bible. BS ("ngao si" my Chinese girlfriend Sin-Laan says) is still BS whether you have a speck of it or a mountain that View and Nick pile here.

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  by JeffreyB on February 2nd, 2011

• Jeffery. please show me where I made awful false accusations against others.

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  by vew573 on February 2nd, 2011

• Sorry Jeffrey, but there are reputable scientists that believe in Intelligent design. True, creationists often say that the entire universe was created in six literal 24-hour days some 6,000 years ago. With teachings like this, they misrepresent the Bible, which says that God created the heavens and the earth “in the beginning”—at some unstated point before the more specific creative “days” began. (Genesis 1:1)
  
  Significantly, the Genesis account shows that the expression “day” is used in a flexible sense. At Genesis 2:4, the entire period of six days described in the preceding chapter is spoken of as only one day. Logically, these were, not literal days of 24 hours, but long periods of time. Each of these epochs evidently lasted thousands of years.
  
  "Day" in Hebrew can simply mean an "era of time." In English we do the same, for instance, in the "day" of my grandfather...

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  by nick batchelor on February 4th, 2011

• Only deluded men believe of Intelligent Design, most reputable scientists know is absurd "osu no kuso", I see some scholars tell us word at Geneis mean 24 hour day, it speak of evening and morning, nick is quite wrong, just try evade what Bible really say, ID is just new version of Genesis' two contradictiory creation myths, creationism, creation science, intelligent design, it have more names of global warming, climate change, global climate variation, is scam like it.

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  by Kobayashi-san on February 6th, 2011

• Biologist Edwin Conklin once said: “The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing shop.”
  
  Can you explain how the "bacterial flagellum" came about?
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-j5kKSk_6U&feature=related

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  by nick batchelor on February 6th, 2011

• Are you sure you are not parroting what others say? I hear skeptics tell me how scientist "recreate conditions of early planet life" in their "experiments." If the gas mixture represents the atmosphere, the electric spark mimics lightning, and boiling water stands in for the sea, what or who does the scientist arranging and carrying out of the experiment represent?

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  by nick batchelor on February 7th, 2011

• What about the entire assembly of the Bacterial Flaggelum that consists of about 40 proteins, which can be compared to the parts in a motor. Amazingly, it builds itself in only 20 minutes!
  
  The publication The Evolution Controversy states: “The bacterial flagellum includes a rotary motor that spins around at speeds of 6,000 to 17,000 rpm. Even more remarkable, it can change direction in as little as a quarter turn,and then spin 17,000 rpm in the other
  direction.”
  
  New Scientist magazine calls the bacterial flagellum “a prime example of a complex molecular system—an intricate nanomachine beyond the craft of any human engineer.”
  
  Scientists are baffled by the fact that the tiny bacterial flagellum selfassembles in the exact order that is needed for all 40 parts to fit together properly and function correctly.
  
  My question is, "Where did the instructions come from?"

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  by nick batchelor on February 8th, 2011

• Thanks Randoley. It's much easer to be kind if we remember not to take what others say personal. If we just remember that it is not us that they are rejecting.

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  by vew573 on February 9th, 2011

• Personally, I much rather they reject little us than our Creator. It is hard for some people to imagine something bigger than us. There is just too much precision in life around us to think otherwise. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we respect that.

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  by nick batchelor on February 9th, 2011

• "Structure of the Bacterial Flagellar Hook and Implication for the Molecular Universal Joint Mechanism" at October 28, 2004 "Nature" and other "Nature" articles and other sources show actual appearance of bacterial flagellum, William Dembski use bad photo at cover of book "No Free Lunch", it become mascot of ID at Dover trial, they claim it is example of "irreducible complexity" and support existence of designer. Carl Zimmer's 2008 book "Microcosm: E. coli and the New Science of Life" show evolutionary development of so-called "irreducible machines" become other useful parts, thus ID masot become science paradigm support Darwin-san's ideas. Nick not know scientists refute ID deception, "hoist [ID] upon own petard", show us he not read or comprehend science, only see and only want see ID and creationist deception, they are only pseudo-science and bad science, I know that, Nick not know it.

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  by Kobayashi-san on February 11th, 2011

• Izanami and Izanami create world, they are at 8th generation of Kami (gods, spirits), their daughter Amaterasu become supreme deity when they retire, is sad when Nick and View reject our Japanese Creators and Supreme Goddess, at Japan 99.54% of people not Christian, I imagine many things, is not difficult, no valid reason claim imaginary things real however, Nick's argument work against him, if is "too much precison in life around us", that mean cannot be much more precision of creator of it all, is quite illogical say universe quite complex then invent deity much more complex try explain it, "God-did-it" explain nothing, is only pretense of explanation, is more logical say universe always exist of say gods always exist. If must claim any deity exist, is no good reason favor Kami (God) not Izanami, Izanagi and Amaterasu or Yu Ti, Vishnu, Ahuramazda, Amon, Ra, Marduk, Shamash, Zeus, Jupiter, Odin, etc.

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  by Kobayashi-san on February 11th, 2011

• I keep reading, "Japan 99.54% of people not Christian" so what is your point? Jesus said His followers would be few in number and they would be hated for it. If Kobayashi-san and Komatsu represent the hatred shown by 99.54% of Japanese then that only proves Jesus was right.

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  by Randoley on February 11th, 2011

• (:>

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  by vew573 on February 11th, 2011

• Jesus is all about freedom and love. Can you tell me one time Jesus ever said anything about being hateful toward others, being tyrannical, or excluding others? Just one verse, even half a verse will do.
  
  I could say all day long for the rest of my life, "George Washington never existed. He isn't real." I could convince myself that was the truth, but it does not make it true.
  
  I didn't say the Japanese people are full of hatred. I said if those to represent the Japanese, then Jesus was right because their comments are very hateful. Anyone reading this thread can see that.

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  by Randoley on February 11th, 2011

• Why does "MegumiS" resort to name-calling? "Three Stooges"? This does not speak well of you and weakens your position.
  
  Kobayashi-san, Concerning the bacterial flagellum you might want to read the following:
  
  http://tinyurl.com/24luvj4
  
  Also I would recommend you go to the Discovery Institute website and search on "flagellum" for the full facts.
  
  www crsc.org

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  by nick batchelor on February 11th, 2011

• "Personally I much rather nick & gang reject us than our creators Izanagi and Izanami. It is hard for some people to imagine something bigger than us ... like Amaterasu Sun Goddess and supreme ruler of universe now." Is correct if nick say gods are all imaginary. They are only products of imagination, tons of frauds' absurd pseudo-science not affect reality. Discovery Institute is quite bad joke, nick discredit himself when give such bad references, view give us silly stuff make Kobayashi-san laugh.

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  by Komatsu on February 16th, 2011

• What can any of you tell me about the God I worship? I'm sure the God you hate so much is not the one I worship. Do you have any questions about my God that I could answer?

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  by Randoley on February 16th, 2011

• "Komatsu" it seems you are incapable of dealing with the argument, so as usual, you just criticize anyone who does not hold your opinion. What if you quote a Scientist and I just tear him apart without addressing what he is actually stating. You have your own perception but what you really need to do is face reality. Talk about the design that is clear for all to see in the example I gave of "bacterial flaggelum."

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  by nick batchelor on February 16th, 2011

• Nick discredits himself with copying the IDers tired and lame "bacterial flagellum" malarkey that scientists have easily refuted, because it's so infantile. Miss Kobayashi gave some references about that, and she knows science better than Miss Komatsu. Miss Kobayashi is a college student studying science, and Miss Komatsu is an actress, model, dancer and singer, so she knows only basic science, but that's more than the Discovery Frauds Group knows or anyone who says it's a relaible source. I belong to some of both ladies' Yahoo Groups and they're two of my contacts on Facebook and Twitter. The Discovery Institute is a laugh, as Miss Komatsu says. It never occurred to nick that Japanese don't like arguing and being impolite. Anyone who has Bushido is at a disadvantage against Hinin who have no Giri, as is the case with view573, nick batchelor & randoley. None of them have quoted anyone but creationist and ID mountebanks who are ridiculed by real scientists. Miss Komatsu knows a lot more about facing reality than nick batchelor ever will.

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  by JeffreyB on February 18th, 2011

• Randoley asks if anyone knows his god. Is it Eris, Njord, Shinigami or Claoca? He says view573 and nick batchelor behave well but nobody else does. What a laugh! How blind can anyone be? My parents are religious and took me to church every Sunday. I read the Bible every day in grade school, and I soon saw many contradictions in it and lots of primitive ignorance. All of the apologists view573 quotes only show me all the more that the Bible is bad fantasy used in a con game. The excuses the "Lame Excuse Givers" hand us only add more proof the Bible is fantasy. View573, randoley and nick batchelor show me I never want to be among Christians again. Being in Heaven forever with such people would be far worse than anything in Hell, as the wise Isaac Asimov said. You never convert anyone by handing him what is clearly nonsense and insulting him too. These people just want to argue not try to convert anyone. I thank them for adding lots of proof that the Bible is a joke.

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  by JeffreyB on February 18th, 2011

• You didn't answer my question Jeffrey. Please tell me about this God you don't believe in. I'm sure I don't believe in him either. I'll ask another question. Could you please quote where I, view573, or Nick insulted, or behaved badly?
  
  Look, I don't agree with view573, or Nick. They are Jehovah's Witnesses and I don't consider them Christians because they deny that Jesus was God in Human form. Never the less I still see 2 people defending their beliefs in a kind and respectful manner while being attacked and called names. I don't like that.
  
  Jeffrey, you say all we want to do is argue and not try to convert. I'm sure if we were trying to convert, you would say, "These people just want to convert and not try to debate with anyone." You have such an anger and hatred against God someone who is defending Him would make you mad no matter what they did or said.

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  by Randoley on February 18th, 2011

• All I am asking is for someone to address my question regarding
  "bacterial flaggelum" instead of tearing into me, telling me I have bogus scientists, and that you are right and I am wrong. Clearly point out to me where? Anyone?
  
  When I quoted "New Scientist" magazine, is this a fake magazine?
  
  New Scientist magazine calls the bacterial flagellum “a prime example of a complex molecular system—an intricate nanomachine beyond the craft of any human engineer.”
  
  What is wrong with quoting this source? What do you have to say about, not the source, but the quote itself? Please elaborate.

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  by nick batchelor on February 19th, 2011

• I can hardly believe what I see here. I took Kobayashi-san (Miss Kobayashi) and two other girls with me to visit my home in Rome, Italy, and we toured Europe and Asia too. Now, we've been touring America. I'm a Catholic and a scientist, and I see tons of references to creationist liars. Miss Kobayashi is too well-educated in science, as I am, to believe such pitiful ranting as this. The Pope accepted Evolution years ago, and anyone who is fully in the 21st Century must. ID liars used the E. coli flagellum as a mascot in the Dover case. Their rants are pitiful, for they are based on a bad photo that makes these parts look like machines. This blurred photo was on the cover of that fraud William Demski's book "No Free Lunch". This nick batchelor should give it a rest, for he only makes a fool of himself to a scientifically literate girl like Miss Kobayashi. He reads one article and believes he's an expert. Miss Kobayashi gave several references he can check about it. He sees only what he wants to see. How sad. I convinced a few Asian girls to attend church with me, but at Yahoo Answers hateful Monica V ruined months of my work, and now I see View573, nick batchelor and Randoley are worse than Monica.

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  by VenusMaria on February 20th, 2011

• Randoley says some people hate God. That's so ridiculous, for atheists don't believe in God, so they can't hate him. How dense can some men be? I've heard that same "balle" before at Yahoo Answers. It's sad that such people ruin my work to bring Dio to Asians through a Deadly Sin Vanity. I'm beginning to hate this smug guy myself I must admit. He asks about his God. Who knows or cares about it. This isn't Pop Quiz time. I do observe that his God is surely not mine. In Italy, Dio is our Catholic deity. Some of these "fine" creationists and ID advocates are likely to say we Catholics aren't real Christians. I've heard that from Monica V and other "batardos".

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  by VenusMaria on February 20th, 2011

• I'm not Catholic so anything the Pope says means nothing to me. I also disagree with anything the Catholic church teaches.
  
  When I ask, "What can any of you tell me about the God I worship? I am trying to see where the other person is coming from. I'm trying to find out their views and beliefs about God. I'm not getting that. All I'm getting is hate and anger. I wont to know where that anger comes from. I also offered to answer any questions about my God too. That was another attempt to find out where people are coming from and to explain my thoughts and beliefs as well.
  
  If Atheist don't hate God because they don't believe in Him then why do they come off as so hateful? I don't believe in Islam, Catholicism, Jehovah's Witness, or Mormonism, and I'm not constantly on those threads screaming about how wrong they are and calling them names. Why are Atheists so dominant on Christian sites insulting and being hateful? Only a person filled with hate acts like that.
  
  Are you saying you hate Me? How Christian is that? You call me vane and smug and say you hate me, but then you say you want to bring God to the Asians. You better go to one of your confession booths and ask forgiveness for hating. What did Jesus say about hating people?

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  by Randoley on February 20th, 2011

• VenusMaria, do you believe the Bible is 100% accurate and true? Do you believe it was written by God through the hands of men?

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  by Randoley on February 20th, 2011

• That's a good question Randoley I would like to hear VenusMaria's thoughts on the Bible itself. Her friend thinks the Genesis account is a myth. How do you think the God of the Bible feels about that? Is that a compliment or an insult to God? If God is not there it doesn't matter to them right? But what if God is there? What happens to your friend? Why don't you tell her according to your Catholic belief? Will she still be your friend?
  
  Since VenusMaria is a "Scientist," concerning the flagellar motor, could you please explain step by step its origin? And where did the instructions come from to put the 40 parts together in order so precisely?
  
  http://www.fbs.osaka-u.ac.jp/labs/namba/npn/movie1.html
  http://www.fbs.osaka-u.ac.jp/labs/namba/npn/movie5.html

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  by nick batchelor on February 21st, 2011

• Kobayashi-san is my lover Kyojin's age 19 cousin, Jeffrey is member of some of our Yahoo Groups and friend at Facebook and Twitter, we look at one another's answers, comment when we like, I inform Randoley is FREEDOM OF SPEECH at USA. Randoley sound paranoid, make false accusations. I report Randoley of offensive words. If he report me, I prosecute him violate constitutional rights. He is scoundrel, disgrace Christianity. he is rude and insulting, say other people are, is typical fundamentalist behavior. Is foolish say anyone hate fictional character, I see many fundamentalists tell same lie at Yahoo Answers.

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  by Komatsu on February 21st, 2011

• Nick say Venus is 'a "Scientist"' is libelous, she know science well, I see her at Yahoo Answers long time answer many questions of science, she alos study logic, nick sy till use ID "kuso' of flagellum, he can read Kobayashi-san's references of it, a scientists refute ID lies, nick not want accept that. I hate Randoley, nick is milder, view just naive, Randoley is agitator come here cause trouble we see. I hope Randoley ignore me, he lie however. People say they are God's chosen people are real "elitist snobs" he mention.

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  by Komatsu on February 21st, 2011

• I see nick batchelor refers to me as a "Scientist", and that seems to show he doubts I am, so that's deceptive and perhaps defamatory. Furthermore, I don't have to explain anything to him or to anyone. I don't think it's proper to be asking questions here. We're supposed to be commenting about Miss Komatsu's answer, not asking more questions. Miss Kobayashi gave some references 11 February 2011 nick can look at. He doesn't give any details of the flagellum hoax for anyone to refute anyhow. There's no "flagellar motor". That's just based upon a bad blurred photo used by William Dembski on his book "No Free Lunch". By saying this, nick shows he has no comprehension of real flagellum of E. coli. He doesn't even tell us full details about the ID lies at the Dover trial. Yet, I'm supposed to write a book here refuting something he doesn't even understand or detail here. That's awful! He can read the book Miss Kobayashi listed that has the definitive answer. I don't have time to paste a book here. I do have a life, so I only use Answer Bag once a week or less. Two men ask about me and the Bible. Catholics depend upon our bishops and priests to explain it to us. I believe God used evolution, because God ("Dio", in Italian) certainly is real, and so is evolution. Randoley asks about his God. From his words I see here, I wonder it it might be Lucifer. I became friends with Kotoko from Japan when we shared a room at an American college. Through her, I met more Japanese people, e.g. Miss Komatsu. Very few Japanese are Christians. I have persuaded a few of them to attend church with me, but I am nice to atheists, Shintoists, Buddhists, etc. too. It's foolish and harmful to everyone to hate anyone with different beliefs and start quarrels. God doesn't want that. I wish Randoley could learn that. He accuses other people of his faults. He tries to lead nick and view astray too. He isn't one of their friends on here, and Miss Komatsu said he has a quarrel with her about another question, so he just came here to spite her it seems. That's sinful. I try to convert people by being nice to them, not insulting them.

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  by VenusMaria on February 25th, 2011

• Did you notice my comment was deleted when I answered Komatsu condemning me?

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  by nick batchelor on February 25th, 2011

• Komatsu,
  
  So it is not okay for me to say "a scientist" but it is perfectly fine and acceptable for you to call me a monster?

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  by nick batchelor on February 28th, 2011

• VenusMaria should stick up for the God of the Bible instead of her new found friend. Her priests she respects wouldn't. Jesus himself believed Moses when the Son of God said "However, from the beginning of creation ‘He made them male and female." (Mark 10:6)
  
  Jesus or Komatsu? VenusMaria needs to decide.

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  by nick batchelor on February 28th, 2011

• I haven't met Venus, but my new girlfriend knows her. Venus returns to her home in Italy every summer I'm told. I also hear she and Miss Komatsu have been friends several years. Venus helped Komatsu-san when she needed help. Isn't that what a decent human does, Christian or not? Nobody has to choose between Miss Komatsu and Jesus! That's amusing to say such a thing. It's really choosing between nick and Miss Komatsu. Nobody here speaks for Jesus. It's a deadly sin to have such pride. Randoley should read more about Jesus it seems from his behavior here. View573 is trolling. I just saw her trying to involve Anonymous in this war. The Christians I know don't behave like that. My parents and sister are Christians. This group tries to see Venus a Catholic as an enemy.

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  by JeffreyB on March 2nd, 2011

• There is nothing wrong with calling people on their bad behavior. Jesus did it all the time. We are to be bold in what we believe and how we feel, specially when someone attacks, Jesus, God or our faith.
  
  No one has said anything about Catholics being enemies. Venus brought that up.
  
  Jesus' last command was for us to go out into the world and preach and baptize in His name. It is not pride to speak for Jesus. It is an honor. He has told us to do so.

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  by Randoley on March 2nd, 2011

• Jerffrey,
  
  I am not asking VenusMaria to not be friends with Komatsu. I am sure they have a great friendship and have many great experiences together and have mutual love and respect for one another. I am not saying if she believes in Jesus she should reject Komatsu as a person. I am sure she has many great qualities and sounds like an interesting, talented person. You have it all wrong Jeff.
  
  What I have tried to convey is that we either believe Komatsu or Jesus when it comes to where we came from, our origin. I do not claim to speak for Jesus, but I can quote him. All of us have a choice, to believe what he said or we can simply write off what Jesus clearly stated. (We don't need a priest to tell us either, it is in the Bible for us to examine.)
  
  No one here is my enemy. We may never see eye to eye, but okay. I cannot continue this discussion if I am going to be censored or where any point shared will be deleted because a certain someone "disagrees."
  
  Best wishes everyone.

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  by nick batchelor on March 2nd, 2011

• Venus and I disagree of religion. She born Catholic at Rome, Italy, never change. I born Fukushima, Japan, my parents lukewarm followers of Michi no Kami (Shen Tao or Shinto at China) and Buddhism, my lover Kyojin born USA, is grandson of Christian pastor, begin read Bible age 2, he see many errors of it, age 11 tell father Masahiko he is atheist, he show me atheism is logical. Venus not try force her beliefs upon me, I not force my beliefs upon her. We are calm when discuss this subject. Venus see many fundies at Yahoo Answers say Catholics not Christians, Randoley say that too, we know he believe it before he admit it. I tell Venus Jesus never exist, Kyojin show me much proof of it. She not angry, we can be friends. I cannot be friends of Randoley, he is tyrant, not want allow any differnt ideas, is worse too. Venus convert more people of Randoley, he not want convert anuyone, just want force his naive beliefs upon everyone. I not think Jesus tell him come here and lie.

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  by Komatsu on March 7th, 2011

• Randoley indicate Venus should not heed professors or priests, if not heed professors should not attend college. He show what occur when person is too subjective, have no objective teacher show him his errors. he say Evolution is wrong, thta is quite naive. Most educated Christians accept Evolution, cannot logically reject it when is so much scientific evidence support it. Only uneducated fundies try deny Evolution, is unwise heed such people.

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  by Komatsu on March 7th, 2011

• Nick says awful things and then lamely tries to weasel out of it. I don't see anyone, besides me, on God's side here. My Japanese friends Miss Komatsu and Miss Kobayashi and their fiend Megumi whom I know slightly are certainly not Christians, and Jeffrey is an atheist. Randoley is an agitator who came here to cause trouble and has tried things that are criminal. He just uses two naive Jehovah's witnesses in his evil game. I hear Randoley said some hateful things about Catholics not being Christians, as I figured he would, but I don't see that. The Bible say that as he judges me, so shall he be judged. If he says I'm not a Christian, God may tell him he isn't one when he dies and faces Judgement. Nick is snivelling I see. from what I hear there have been some hateful comments that have been removed. Nick evades his responsibility we see. He says awful things and believes he can excuse it, but some actions are inexcusable. Grow up, nick! I call Randoley for very bad behavior. He should talk to an attorney about some of his rash words.

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  by VenusMaria on March 8th, 2011

• What have said that was awful? You can not be serious. Can you tell me what you think about calling someone "a monster"? How come no rebuke for your friends? Have they "evaded their responsibility"? What does that even mean to you?
  
  The truth is you do not believe Jesus who you claim is your Judge.

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  by nick batchelor on March 8th, 2011

• Now, I don't believe Jesus is it? That's outrageous! You can't weasel out of such a horrible lie as that! That's a great sin to tell such horrible lies about anyone. You don't speak for Jesus. I've heard about Jehovah's witnesses, but I won't repeat it. You two are proving what I hear is true. It's hopeless to try to talk to some people. Nick will evidently try to excuse anything he says. Unrepentant sinners can't be forgiven. What's this about someone calling someone a "monster"? There's so much stuff here, I don't have time to read even 10% of it, and there's no good reason to do it. Nick doesn't know what I say to my friends. He's the one still trying to evade responsibility. He imagines he's much more clever than he really is. I don't have to choose between Jesus and Miss Komatsu. It's really choosing between her and nick, view and randoley, and that's easy. I've known her a few years, and I know she's a nice person. She was rather shy and meek when I met her, but her boyfriend Kyojin the Giant and I have persuaded her to defend herself against such people as them. It seems that I often agree more with atheists than fundies. that's sad.

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  by VenusMaria on March 11th, 2011

• I told a joke on Yahoo Answers to Monica V a fundie there. It goes that a Catholic went to Heaven. He walked around, and eventually, he saw a building with no doors or windows. That was puzzling, so he asked an angel about it. The angel said that the fundies were in there. They believe they're the only ones in Heaven, so that building is all of Heaven to them, and they can't see that many more people besides them are there. In truth, that building is more likely to be in Hell. Nick judges himself when he says I don't listen to Jesus. He shouldn't talk about such things when he isn't doing so well at it.

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  by VenusMaria on March 11th, 2011

• You claim to believe in Jesus but you are NOT sticking up for what he says. What did I quote Jesus as saying? Will you address it? Do you believe him or your atheist friend? You have to deal with this?
  
  Why don't you ask which one of your friends called me "a monster"? Will you publicly criticize them or remain quiet as you do whenever they say outrageous comments like that. Oh, you don't have time to find out I understand. That is just hypocritical there is no way around it. The reality is, you are showing yourself to have more regard for your friends than the Bible which they will pick a part as you stand there watching in silence.

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  by nick batchelor on March 11th, 2011

• Venus make good point, fundies believe only they go Heaven, if they there, I not want go, go anywhere else escape them. Is understatement if say man claim Venus not believe Jesus is "monster", is worse of that. Nick say anything hateful, then excuse himself, he not follow Jesus, I not think Jesus tell him tell terrible lies of people. My lover Kyojin is maternal grandson of Christian pastor, his mother Tomomi and sister Keiko are Christians, father Masahiko, brother Kenichi and sister Akiko not Christians. Kyojin read Bible daily since age 2, he soon see many errors, age 11 he tell father he is atheist, father not mind, just tell him not tell mother. Kyojin tell me of many contradictions and much ignorance of science at Bible, nick, randoley and view 753 not know much science is obvious. Venus is caught between two sides, she not agree fully of either side at this question, she is Christian, also study sciences at college, thus she not at either group. One side have fundamentalists know little of science and logic, other side have atheists know science well or excellently. Venus and Kobayashi-san study sciences at college, I study drama. I am actress, model, singer, dancer, know basic science, my lover Kyojin the Giant, Venus, Kobayashi-san know much more science of me.

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  by Komatsu on March 13th, 2011

• DEA officer stops at a ranch in Texas , and talks with an old rancher. He tells the rancher, "I need to inspect your ranch for illegally grown drugs." The rancher says, "Okay , but do not go in that field over there," as he points out the location.
  
  The DEA officer verbally explodes saying, " Mister, I have the authority of the Federal Government with me." Reaching into his rear pants pocket, he removes his badge and proudly displays it to the rancher. "See this badge? This badge means I am allowed to go wherever I wish.... On any land. No questions asked or answers given. Have I made myself clear? Do you understand? "
  
  The rancher nods politely, apologizes, and goes about his chores.
  
  A short time later, the old rancher hears loud screams and sees the DEA officer running for his life chased by the rancher's big Santa Gertrudis bull......
  
  
  
  
  With every step the bull is gaining ground on the officer, and it seems likely that he'll get gored before he reaches safety. The officer is clearly terrified. The rancher throws down his tools, runs to the fence and yells at the top of his lungs.....
  
  
  " Your badge.. Show him your BADGE ! "

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  by vew573 on March 13th, 2011

• Hey, I can tap-dance! How can I use this to bolster my arguments?
  Komatsu, what you said makes almost no sense. Does it for anyone out there? What is this talk about "Venus not believe Jesus is "a monster"? Do you even know what you are saying? This conversation is just too much to take.

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  by nick batchelor on March 14th, 2011

• I think Komatsu-san make much more sense of nick bacthelor and view573, batchelor-san falsely accuse Venus, say she not believe Jesus, nick break many rules Jesus have, conversation of uneducated fundies too much take indeed, ridicule Japanese lady's imperfect English is barbaric, batchelor-san also kick people use crutches, cruelty at such people is criminal! If bachelor-san want ridicule Komatus-san's imperfect English, we can ridicule his ignorance of science and logic. I think Komatsu-san dance better of bachelor-san, she is professional, can see her dance at Youtube, see some of her movies and photos too, she is actress, model, singer, dancer, her fee of modeling job is equal $400,000 USA, her lover is my cousin Kyojin the Giant. View573 not good comedian, Venus' joke much better, view and bachelor-san have much unintentional comedy hyowever.

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  by Kobayashi-san on March 16th, 2011

• Actually I wasn't trying to be funny. But since this conversation makes no sense. Most of what that's said has nothing to do with the subject, just like my post has nothing to do with the subject.
  
  What does Komatus-san's work, boyfriend etc. have to do with the question. Just about the same as my post about the bull does.
  
  And what does a lot of accusations againt Nick, myself, etc. prove. How does this prove whether or not three wise men visited Jesus????????
  This is surreal.

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  by vew573 on March 16th, 2011

• Exactly! I did not poke fun at Komatsu's ENGLISH, I said her reasoning did not make sense and stated why. Nice try though to discredit me. I wanted Venus to respond to what Jesus said. I quoted him earlier. I want Venus to tell me if she believes Jesus or Komatsu and we will leave it at that. Read Mark 10:6 (as I quoted) to her and let her tell you what she thinks of it. Let me know what she says and what you think. Now, who is right Jesus or Komatsu. Just let me know, thanks.
  
  Lastly, who on earth cares how much Komatsu earns or how famous she is? It is meaningless to this discussion. If my father was Donald Trump would that make any difference at all? What are you people saying?

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  by nick batchelor on March 16th, 2011

• I am the lover of Komatsu-san (Miss Komatsu), and I do not allow anyone to insult her. This is a long string of discussion, so I do not know much about it yet. This nick batchelor discredits himself from what I see thus far, so no one else needs to do it for him. Miss Komatsu has earned the equivalent of nearly $20,000,000 a year with her movies, modelling, recordings of songs and dancing recently. I am certain Mr. batchelor earns far less then Miss Komatsu and I do, and I doubt that his IQ is anywhere near Miss Komatsu's or Venus'. From what I see thus far, he is rather uneducated and has poor logic. A gentleman does not talk to ladies in such a manner as he does. He needs to learn manners.

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  by KyojinTheGiant on March 17th, 2011

• I appreciate that you want to stick up for your girlfriend but I say nothing disrespectful. Go back and read the discussion since you admit, "you do not know anything about it yet" and get back to me. Don't forget to read the part that she calls me "a monster." For what? I look forward to your response. You seem like a well-meaning person but you also mistakenly believe that because someone earns more money or is famous, this makes them higher in IQ? This my dear friend is poor logic.

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  by nick batchelor on March 18th, 2011

• Nick evidently can't read English, or he wants to distort what people say and make false accusations about it. He's either dyslexic or a deceiver! Kyojin said he's certain nick earns much less than he and his girl do and doubts that his IQ is near theirs. That's not saying earning more money makes an I.Q. higher. It's two separate clauses joined by "AND". Then, he says that's poor logic, but Kyojin didn't say that. It's there in writing for anyone to see. Nick is lying about what Kyojin said and then saying he's illogical based upon his lie. That's double lies and is insulting and maybe libelous. Nick lies to insult people and try to diminish their credibility. That's criminal and sinful. Both the Bible and laws of the land forbid such behavior. Calling such a person a "monster" is an understatement. Nick says many outrageous things and tries to deny it or excuise it. What a deceiver he is. I call him a liar, a defamer and a criminal, and there's proof here in writing.

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  by JeffreyB on March 21st, 2011

• How then is he "certain" that Komatsu has a higher I.Q than me? And please tell me what making money and fame has to do with anything? Seriously? How am I lying or insulting anyone? Wasn't it you that told me to get a life? Didn't you say that the Bible "was a joke!" VenusMaria where are you? Will you defend your faith?
  
  Calling someone "a monster" is an understatement? Huh??? All these tactics are smoke and mirrors designed to divert attention from what we originally were discussing.

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  by nick batchelor on March 21st, 2011

• Nick batchelor go far away of original discussion, then claim other people do it, discussion is of Komatsu-san's answer of 3 wise men, he ask several times of "bacterial flagellum motor" (not know is just silly ID hoax), such behavior typical of certain type of Christians, anyone have high IQ can read all this mess and see Komatsu-san much more intelligent of nick batchelor, he not realize he know nothing of science and logic, imagine he is clever. Kyojin is my cousin, Jeffery is correct say nick batchelor libel him, if batchelor-san meet Kyojin he not dare insult him, if he do Kyojin use one hand lift him overhead, toss him at trashcan, Kyojin is huge and strong, create his own martial arts Go Utsu Bu Jutsu.

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  by Kobayashi-san on March 23rd, 2011

• So now we are talking about who can beat up someone else? If I was doing push ups since I was a fetus and can take out Jeffrey in a ninja fight that would vindicate me! You all love to throw the word "insult" when we question each others reasoning. You argue in favor of your thinking on science and God and I do mine. Why does it come to this? Is anyone else listening to these taunts? Mentality like this is where bullies are made. Shame on you.

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  by nick batchelor on March 23rd, 2011

• Batchelor-san is coward imagine no one can find him if he insult people when use computer. He not dare insult Kyojin or Jeffrey if actually meet them. Jeffrey is 6'-0", 265 lbs. all muscle, no visible bodyfat, Kyojin weigh 375-545 lbs. not fat, outlift trained gorilla. All of us see this exchange easily see my IQ much higher of batchelor-san's, he not even know how little you know, never see any JW have very high IQ. Other Christians say they are cult Devil rule. Kyojin's mother and older sister are Christian, they not like JWS. Kobayashi-san is 5'-0", 94.6 lbs. age 19 girl, Venus is 5'-5", 105.6 lbs. lady, Megumi is 5'-10", 123 lbs. lady, I am 5'-0.6", 96.8 lbs. lady, age 4 I begin study Karate. I see Nick libel Kyojin, that is bad error. He try evade it when he have bad behavior, that is futile when intelligent people see it.

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  by Komatsu on March 25th, 2011

• Quote: "Jeffrey is 6'-0", 265 lbs. all muscle.
  Kyojin weigh 375-545 lbs. not fat, outlift trained gorilla.
  Kobayashi-san is 5'-0", 94.6 lbs. age 19 girl, Venus is 5'-5", 105.6 lbs. lady, Megumi is 5'-10", 123 lbs. lady, I am 5'-0.6", 96.8 lbs"
  
  This is in response to my question: DID THREE WISE MEN VISIT THE BABY JESUS? And from someone who want's others to see her as a very intelligent person.

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  by vew573 on March 25th, 2011

• Comment removed by Community Leader.

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  by The Chief on March 28th, 2011

• I don't understand why the chief's comment would be removed. Something is going on. This makes three persons, that I know of, who are either having their posts removed or are not allowed to post a comment. The other two I know quiet well, and the Chief, as far as I can tell, does not engage in any deroragitory, or insulting posts.
  
  Chief if you see this, you need to contact the community leader and find out what is going on. I know of one person who is doing this already. It seems that some are reporting posts that they don't agree with to get them removed. How can anyone have an intelligent discussion if they get Offended when someone disagrees with them?

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  by vew573 on March 28th, 2011

• It looks as if the Chief removed an inappropriate, insulting recent comment.

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  by nick batchelor on March 28th, 2011

• Thank you for your concern, vew573. But I am that Community Leader. My posting, immediately after the warning, was intentional.
  
  :)

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  by The Chief on March 28th, 2011

• Got You! (:>

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  by vew573 on March 28th, 2011

• Answering your own question is a violation at Yahoo Answers, and view573 is doing that here. This is preaching, not asking a question, so it should be removed. I thought this forum was for real questions, not naive sermons. If view is allowed to abuse this forum, why should any intelligent person want to use it?

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  by VenusMaria on April 14th, 2011

• Comments were removed based on the degenerating nature of them...I am loathe to remove entire answer/comment strings like this if it can be avoided. I will if I have to...however, there is nothing wrong with people having opposing opinions and discussing them.
  
  The key here being "discussing".
  
  I did not remove the preceeding comments because you asked some good questions in them with respect to this topic. However, I will remove any further comments having to do with perpetuating antagonistic behavior.
  
  As for answering your own question...there is nothing in Answerbag's Terms of Use or Site Guidelines (FAQ) which say this is not allowed. I do not know if this is true for Yahoo Answers or not...but it's a moot point anyway, since this isn't YA.
  
  Let's let this comment string lie fallow now.
  
  :):)

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  by The Chief on April 14th, 2011