- NEW!
by HasntBeen on November 4th, 2009
Sounds like the sort of vague, sweeping, suspicious generalization of someone who wants a soapbox and a fight.
--- EDIT ---
Here's what I think is happening: there is a meme in the culture which worships the idea of "small government / individual effort" as a sort of religion. It's intoxicating: it's so simple and efficient. It's like Mr. Wimpet who has turned his basement into a perfect little model town with trains going everywhere. All the stop lights operate with precision, the trains run on time, the postman always says "hello" to everyone he passes... it's idyllic.
"Small government / individual effort" glows like an imaginary world free of problems to people infected with this meme, and the craving to hang on to that idealized and simplistic vision produces an intensity of focus that defies all reason, and disregards about 95% of the facts about our real world.
Of course, if Mr. Wimpet were put in charge of a real world, the sewers would overflow and the stoplights would all turn green at the same time and... the people would die for lack of healthcare. And he would sound like a lot of these people sound when they're placed in positions of authority: angry, frustrated, lashing out, unable to understand why everybody doesn't SEE his glowing and perfect little world.
So to Mr. Wimpet, the world is divided into us-and-them: those who see the Magic Vision, and those who don't. He can't see that "everybody else" is a huge diversity of worldviews and opinions and concerns, it looks like a monolithic blob of enemies: "the liberals!"
So this is the world the questioner is talking about: the simplistic visionaries vs. everybody else ("the liberals"). All he has to know is that you don't see the vision, and he knows you must be A Liberal™ -- someone who wants to smash the train set.
That's why this meme is so persistent: its simplicity is addictive. Nevermind that it has never actually been tested or shown to work in a real country with real people and real problems -- it must be true because it works in the basement of the believer's minds.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 4th, 2009
yeah how dare the working class believe they deserve to be able to afford a place to live and food to eat on 40 hours per week.
by Sandman on November 4th, 2009
We didn't. Several successive Socialist governments did.
by Tom on November 5th, 2009
I think Robin Hood came up with that policy! (+5)
by randomness - is now a Maestro on November 5th, 2009
I blame corporations looking to make a quick dollar, and their media influence. They have created a consumerist culture, where they convince people that they need things which they do not. look closely, you'll notice it when you watch television. You'll be told that you have a problem which you'd never even thought about before, and then you'll be told that there is a fix for this problem, and you need it. You've got pimples! Don't you know that all girls will hate you if you have pimples? Better buy this face scrub. You've got a mediocre car!! Don't you know that you can't be happy with an average car?? Don't worry, we have the solution, a nice new expensive car! People are suckered into thinking that they NEED to live the high life, they NEED that makeup, they NEED that car, they NEED that holiday, etc etc. I think this is why so many people get things that they can't afford.
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As to why they need rich people to pay for it.... My view on this is somewhat controversial, and a lot of people will disagree.
I think that the US was made into a great country by people who worked hard. This generation of people has grown up thinking that America is number one, and they are the best. They have a sense of entitlement, like they deserve to live the good, American-dream type life, and they aren't prepared to do the work for it. They think that they can ride on the success of the previous generations, but they can't.
I'm ready for the downrates now.
by Shes Country on November 4th, 2009
It happened because we now are living with the "NOW" generation, who doesn't want to work as hard or as long each week, and earn their way. They don't want to have to scrimp and save until they have enough for the things that they would like to have. They don't want to have to pay their dues in life. Yet they want everything the guy who is working his ass off, has and they want it now.
The United States of America is full of very spoiled people who want what they want now and they don't care how they get it really,.
by weatherman taking week or so off on November 13th, 2009
The EXACT cause of the most recent problems in America. People living in houses they could barely afford, driving SUV's to keep up with the Joneses, and then pushed into serious debt by rising oil prices. Wish I could give you a million points for the question. ENVY - one of the seven deadly sins. COVETING thy neighbor's stuff - violation of one of the 10 commandments.
by Jesus is God on November 9th, 2009
This 40 hour a week concept is american made.When the bible speaks of if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat.It wasn't speaking of a certain amount of hours.If they didn't toil in the garden and work the fields,they wouldn't have food to eat.Bottomline is,I don't need anything the rich have nor do I want it.Aslong as my family eats and has a roof over their head and we are serving Christ I am happy.I could careless about riches.The thing is Jesus never said anything good about them.So why would I want something God never said a good thing about?
by Shes Country on November 9th, 2009
They lie to you and make you feel that you can't get ahead in America, unless the Government helps you. They are purposely creting helpless, dependent people becuase they are easier to convince, that only they can help you, they are making slaves out of you and they are the ones discriminating against you and oppressing you. Until people like you see that, your lives will never get better. When these Progressives get what they want from you, they will toss you right under the bus. Rather then waiting for a hand out that you didn't earn, it's time for many Americans to get a backbone, begin pulling your own weight and start contributing to America again.
by Who Is She on November 5th, 2009
America take note - The UK and France have up to 50% (that's not a typo), income tax (well the UK's is going up to 50% shortly), for high achievers and huge and much abused welfare systems. While France has a daft, socialist economy and knows no better the UK is supposed to be a pillar of capitalism like the USA. We are now hugely overpopulated by those who like our welfare handouts and prefer never to get off their fat arses and work. Make sure the US doesn't go that way because you'll wish you spoke up louder now if it ever gets that bad for you.
by PartRadio loves YOU on November 4th, 2009
America didn't. The Bible did.
by Fenchurch on November 4th, 2009
about the same time people decided having possesions was important for a fullfilling life, and to spend their whole lives chasing an empty dream.
by timthearchitect on November 22nd, 2009
As a poor kid growing up on the streets of SoCal, living and eating in Dumpsters and alleys, Eight, count them 8 high schools, I was poor. But by working my butt off and never taking, or expecting, but earning my way, I now am considered the "Rich". Everyone can, if there willing too, get ahead. for all those whom think they are OWED or Entitled by those of us that are "Rich", get a job, and drag your walefare butts off the streets and stop taking advantage of those whom do work hard an stop using excuse's. No excuse is a good excuse. I've been there!!
by oldielocks on November 22nd, 2009
I grew up in the 40's and 50's.
Savings accounting was taught in grade school and we got 4 to 5% interest on our money.
You could only get credit on cars and houses, nothing more.
We didn't have TV advertising that brainwashed us into believing we 'had-to-have' or 'deserved' everything we saw.
We had grocery stores that sold food only.
We had time to play, work, sleep, eat, etc.
Hardly anyone had to take 16 prescriptions. We just ate real food. Water was still clean. Lobbying wasn't heard of yet, etc.
Any old geezers out there that still remember?
by Stranger in a Strange Land on November 13th, 2009
It's the spoiled selfishness of a society that has never known want. +3
by Stevie on November 5th, 2009
Americans, in general, didn't decide that. Rich people are the ones that basically run the empire. They're the ones that pay off politicians to do what they want, and they're the ones that will make a profit regardless of the social or environmental costs. However, if rich people are to maintain their power, they recognized years ago that they need to keep the "mob" complacent. If not, then they risk losing everything, including power. So it essentially was rich people who decided it for Americans.
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My personal belief isn't that everything should just be given, but that we should all be given an equal opportunity. Currently, in general, rich people have options whereas poor people don't. A poor person who has had to go to poorly funded public schools won't get the same education as a rich kid in a private one. Then when it's time to consider college, obviously the rich kid has options, such as choosing a school as well as the privilege of changing majors. A poor kid will be lucky if he/she can afford a college, but forget about having to spend more money once they find out they don't like the major they chose.
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The problem is the monetary system itself. As long as rich people are allowed to control everything, we will not be able to radically improve society as a whole. IMHO. +3
by Factotum on November 5th, 2009
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw
by olan black on November 5th, 2009
you have some validity to your claim. about 40 years ago, the average family that sent a child to college did so by loans or the child received scholarships. the rich people paid for there children to go to school. but now, it seems that everybody is suppose to pay for their kids college. they act like it is so matter of fact, and in actuality, most can't afford it. I think that most of it comes from people watching TV, and thinking that they can actually live like the people on TV. everybody wants to be "a star" and nobody wants to live a plain normal life. as far as wealth distribution, i really don't think the claims are valid. for the last few years, higher income people actually received large tax breaks. this was first started by Ronald Reagan, he claimed that they would invest in business and thus grow the economy. but, all they did was take longer vacations, bought larger houses, and spent money on things that were absurb, like air conditioned dog houses.
by Moongrim on November 5th, 2009
First part- after America became a debtor nation during the Reagan years. So WHAT if we can't afford it? Ronnie did!
After years of Rich folks not paying taxes and running up huge deficits.
by Gossamer on November 5th, 2009
It call the Robin Hood policy
by dimpledlo on November 5th, 2009
wats really funny about dis question is dat i would benifit from it if i wanted to. If i wanted to i would whine and cry because i dont make enough money and i want someone elses hard earned money. But i dont do that. If i cant get it why should i try to take from someone else. Its stupidity. Its plan out retarded to expect HARD EARNED WELL FINANCIALLY MINDED people give to idiots like me who blow our money!!
by Gone on November 5th, 2009
This was the hope and change he was talking about in his campaign, remember the question Joe the plumber asked?,,he asked that for a reason.
by Nightwatchdog on November 4th, 2009
As far as I know Americans never did decide that issue in that way - and that's why nothing is being done along those lines you suggest.
But if they want to take from the rich and give it to me then I'm open to the idea.
by olan black on April 19th, 2010
I think I understand the context of your question. and I think the answer is that is is a cultural issue. for instance:
up until the 1980's parents were not expected to pay for college for their kids. if you were not rich, you let your kids know that if they wanted to go to college, they better get good grades or apply for loans. now, people speak of paying for kids college like they are buying a big mac or something. and every personal finance book I have ever read said that it is one of the worst things you can do financially if your middle class, because you have zero return on the money you spent.
Up until the 1980's only the rich kids went on spring break in Florida and other places, middle class kids went home and spent the time with family. now, parents are taking out a second mortgage to send the snot nose kid to vacation from school, even though the parent has not had a vacation in years.
Up until the 1980's having a credit card was considered being rich. middle class people paid for things by saving or putting it in the layaway. now, you have 16 year old with American Express.
notice the over riding theme, the 1980's. Reagan deregulated things, and this culture of "greed is good" and "I would rather be a have than a have not".
the sad part of it, the wages for middle class have been dropping since the 1980's and you have a greater divide between the have and have not, to such a point that since the have are in charge, they think that a middle class person makes about 150,000 a year. most people I know are doing great if they make 50,000 a year. but those under 100,000 are just discounted now, and that is actually the majority of the Americans
by zwatcher on November 26th, 2009
about five seconds after the first person got rich by exploiting his fellow man
by oldielocks on November 26th, 2009
This whole forum has turned into a long-long argument for 3 people, but has been interesting. Thanx
When is primary election day?
by Answerbag Staff on February 27th, 2010
| 1 person likes this
"Kinder, Küche, Kirche" (Children, Kitchen, Church). Why women don't do these instead of political movements and becoming naturists?
by LoverOfSophia on February 12th, 2012
| 1 person likes this
Instead of abolishing religious freedoms piecemeal, why doesn't Obama follow his communist ideology and just ban it all at once?
by More2Be on February 11th, 2012
| 2 people like this
Is it really worth trampling upon The Constitution to prop up the régime of B. Hussein Soetoro Obama?
by More2Be on February 12th, 2012
| 1 person likes this
Do you think monkeys will rule the world after world war 3?
by LoverOfSophia on February 10th, 2012
| 3 people like this
You're reading When did Americans decide that everybody should have what rich people have even if you don't have the money to buy it, and if rich people have more than you have the government should take it from the rich people and give it to you?
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Comments
Agreed!
by Cognition aka Cog on November 4th, 2009
Yep.
by Arisztid on November 4th, 2009
Some people have given some good answers. Too bad you didn't even try.
by Randoley on November 4th, 2009
Too bad you don't know the difference between a rant and an authentic inquiry.
by HasntBeen on November 4th, 2009
Explain it then.
by Randoley on November 4th, 2009
Your rant contains distortion and hyperbole. It says that Americans decided that everybody should have what rich people have even if they don't have the money, and that if rich people have more than us the government should take it from them and give it to us.
Since this statement is almost completely untrue -- there is almost nobody who believes that -- it's clear that it's political posturing: exaggerating the true situation in order to make a point. But it's such a wild exaggeration, that whomever made it must be considered to have quite probably a weak respect for the truth.
The implications are that America has become communist, and you just want to know when it happened.
An authentic enquiry would not take such an aggressively one-sided position, it would recognize the distortions in such a statement and tone them down. This question is 98% soapbox and 2% question.
by HasntBeen on November 4th, 2009
I believe it to be true based on what I am seeing happening. It's an observation.
by Randoley on November 4th, 2009
You do not understand the difference between an 'observation' and a 'opinion'. An observation is some measurable, quantifiable, objective phenomenon -- something you actually saw which others could have seen if they were in the right place and time. An 'opinion' is a belief, which may or may not be associated with supporting evidence.
There is no evidence that the bulk of Americans believe this thing you have claimed. I don't, I'm sure if you ask it in a neutral way of the 'baggers, they don't agree either. To my knowledge, there are no surveys which suggest this is true.
In short, you made it up. It's hyperbole.
by HasntBeen on November 4th, 2009
I would say the Tea Bag Protesters would agree with me. I know Obama does since he thinks wealth distribution is a good idea.
by Randoley on November 4th, 2009
I would say you think in simplistic "us vs. them" terms about many issues. You see the world as divided into two camps: those who are with you and those who are against you. This kind of groupthink is responsible for the perpetuation of an enormous amount of the world's problems.
I don't expect to talk you into paying closer attention to reality, I've been down that tunnel a lot of times with people -- if you don't hear signs of life in the first few comments, there isn't going to be any.
So carry on, and don't worry... somehow all the sloppy thinking and generalizing will pay off, I'm sure... once you kill off all of "them".
by HasntBeen on November 4th, 2009
Sure, reduce me to a murder. That makes since.
by Randoley on November 4th, 2009
Obama is a Marxist Commie and that is why he thinks that redistribution of wealth is a good idea. Go study up on socialism and communism and how they create chaos in countries that they want to take over, in the hopes of causing a revoluton and you will find out, that a lot of things that have been taking place in the USA, in the past 30-40 years and now in the Obama administration, have great similarity. And isn't it interesting how Obama is always talking about a revolution. In communist speak, socialisim and communism is all one and the same.
by Shes Country on November 4th, 2009
ScubJay, I have noticed after listening to people that complain about Obama, that most are complaining about personal issues. Today, a gay rights group blamed him for legislation to allow gay marriage not passing in their state. the fact is, we control our lives, and when you point the finger at someone, remember, three point back at you. as far as your claims of communism, socialism and any other ism, sounds like you have a little to much time on your hands.
by olan black on November 5th, 2009
He is right about Obama being a Marxist. It isn't to hard to figure out.
by Randoley on November 5th, 2009
More distortions. ScrubJay, you're the new target, since you seem even more extremist than Randoley: provide evidence that Obama is "a Marxist Commie". If you're talking about the health care plan, that is going to be a very tall order, since every other major democracy has universal health care. Are you saying that America is in the center of this spectrum, and all other industrial democracies are "Marxist commies"??
Also, your claim that he is for "redistribution of wealth" is a fallacy of overgeneralization. Libraries and public education are "redistribution of wealth" in much the same manner. Should we shut that all down and return to a world where only the rich get a decent education? What would that do to the stability of society.
You've set a tall order for yourself, be aware that I expect rock-solid evidence and argument from you. I am not easily fooled by BS.
by HasntBeen on November 5th, 2009
Randoley, being a Marxist? We have a majority society that insist on labeling all minority's, according to Karl Marx, this would be impossible to have a classless society if you have groups of Minorities that are singled out. I think that we actually are closer to becoming a Feudalistic society, you have major groups that want things that are specifically in their best interest. these groups are banding together, sorta like the lords and the peasants that worked for them. And like the Feudalistic society, the Lords are trying to rally the peasants to overthrow the King, and place the lord in charge of everything. sound familiar?
by olan black on November 8th, 2009
Who are the Lords?
by Randoley on November 8th, 2009
In our case, the lords would be the big businesses, like the drug companies that pay and have people supporting a cause that is there best interest, another group to look out for, the Tea Party people. don't think that Dick Armey is doing all of this for "the people" he has his own agenda, and if these people get the people he wants in office, it will get real ugly real quick!
by olan black on November 8th, 2009
To olan black and anybody else who can't figure out why I, or anybody else would ever think that Obama and all Progressive Liberals are commies and moving the USA toward communim as fast as they can; you are going to have to go to this Answerbag page and read my answer to MrNatural. http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/323992 . It is very long and I don't feel like typing it all again. It is at the bottom of the page. I think that we in America, have a lot of very naive young people.
by Shes Country on November 8th, 2009
They aren't naive. They have just been taught socialism and wealth distribution from kindergarten until graduating collage. Example, "Suzy is that gun you're chewing?" "Yes Mamm." "Unless you have enough for the whole class, spit it out."
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Another example, your kid gets a huge list of supplies they need for school. You get everything on the list and the kid has everything all packed and is excited about having their very own stuff for the first time. As soon as the first class stats the teacher tells the kids to dump all of their stuff in a community box to share, because it isn't fair for your kid to have nicer stuff than Timmy who's parents couldn't afford everything.
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Taking competition out of school sports, not taking score because the slow kids might feel bad if they don't win. If you are having a birthday party you can't bring invitations to school unless you invite the whole class.
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As they get older, schools are eliminating class Victorians because it makes the kids who didn't work hard enough look bad. School uniforms to force conformity so the poor kids want feel left out. Grading curves on tests so it won't look like some kids are better than others.
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All of these things are designed to condition kids to think they should have everything equal to everybody else without putting in the work.
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The secular progressives have had this planned for 60 years, now they have a Congress, President, and generation of young people ready to make it all happen.
by Randoley on November 8th, 2009
This is bullshit. Utter bullshit. You're taking a few dots on a cluttered page and connecting them together to make the picture of a monster. You've chosen the dots, you've drawn the lines, and then you told your silly story about how the monster ate everybody up.
It would be interesting if you threw in some character development, but the monster just sits there when its not eating, being dull-witted and paper-thin, like your theory.
America is the most conservative country in the industrialized world -- preoccupied with making sure nobody gets anything they haven't earned by toiling in the field. It is also the most competitive country, we'er doing just fine.
The bad news is: we have millions of people who get sick and have no options, and millions more who go bankrupt even though they have insurance.
SOLVE those problems, or shut the hell up.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
@olan black: I understand you're trying to be helpful, but I truly don't think it's helpful. We have here a couple of far right-wingnuts who have swallowed the Koolaid and are now in tape-recorder mode, playing back the mix of silliness and shallow philosophy that typically comes from that extreme of the political spectrum.
The way to puncture this stupidity is simply to sit there and make them back up their claims with solid evidence and argument, not to throw in a kitchen sink of every other political issue.
So, ScrubJay -- I'm waiting for your evidence that Obama is a communist. It should be simple: you'll need documentation from a recognized communist party that shows him as a member, or something of equivalent quality. Since you and I both know it doesn't exist, I'll accept you apologizing for your lie instead, if you choose.
Randoley is a bit smarter as snakes go -- he knows better than to make specific claims which are vulnerable to evidence challenges. So instead, he just weaves the bits he chooses into the fantasy of his preference. There's no way to disprove such ideas, because they're chimera from the start.
For him, you have to suggest he get his head out of the propaganda and actually solve a real-world problem, where his fantasy theories don't apply very well.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
" We have here a couple of far right-wingnuts who have swallowed the Koolaid and are now in tape-recorder mode, playing back the mix of silliness and shallow philosophy that typically comes from that extreme of the political spectrum."
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It sure looks like you used every cliché and talking point available in that one paragraph.. Hello, Pot. It's me Kettle. If you are a left-wingnut, then why can't we be right-wingnuts?
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I must add that Scrubjay and myself have said what we felt without resulting to insults and tag lines. Isn't that interesting.
by Randoley on November 9th, 2009
What's interesting is that you don't seem to CARE about the people who are suffering. This isn't about you and me, it isn't about your fetish for political-correctness in comment threads on some web site, it's about real people who are suffering (and in some cases dying) for lack of health care. In the richest democracy in the world, we are behind the rest of our peers in this.
What defines character is caring. The reason your arguments are fluff is because there is a character shortage -- a willingness to make fluff arguments because it's all about just winning the argument at any cost, with no sense of responsibility to your fellow man. "Hey, I have a great health plan" is all you need, yes? Your family is fine, so screw the rest of the country!
What people like you need is a long and heavy dose of the reality of people who are bearing the brunt of our highly-conservative approach to this topic. Some suffering of your own. Nothing opens the eyes like that.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
You don't know anything about the situation my life is in. I could be wheel chair bound and deaf for all you know. You don't know how many times a week I volunteer or give money to charities, or if i do at all. From talking about whether or not Obama is a Marxist you decided that I want people to die. That is a huge leap.
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I don't know why you are bringing up political correctness or the health care plan, or even attacking my ability to care about other people. No one mentioned health care until you did. We weren't even talking about that.
by Randoley on November 9th, 2009
I didn't say you want people to die, did I? I said you don't care about their suffering. That's different. How did I arrive at that conclusion? Pretty simple: you've said nothing which indicates your compassion for these people or your interest in solving the problem. Everything you have said has been consistent with "Randoley is preoccupied with defending and promoting the memes of the far right". You're all about your theory, and have no interest in the real down-to-Earth struggles of ordinary Americans who have no power to solve this terrible problem, because they're repeatedly beaten back by the greed of corporations and the indifference of those who have stable health care.
What you have is an elaborate justification for not caring. That's not the same as caring, not by any stretch.
So, how would YOU solve this problem?
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
The reason I haven't said anything about my compassion for these people and my interest in solving the problem is because those issues were never on the table until you went down a completely different path and brought it up.When did this turn into a health care debate?
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Just because your views are different than mine does not mean I don't care. You just came up with that decision, based on a different opinion than yours. Why don't you just go ahead and call me a racist, homophobe, sexists, greedy capitalist pig, Tea Bagger who clings to the Bible and guns, and get all of the liberal name calling out of the way. Then we can move on.
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I would fix the problem with allowing the insurance companies to compete nation wide, not just within state borders. That would drive down costs and offer real competition. That would change and fix a lot.
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Forcing citizens to buy a government approved plan with a penalty of up to 5 years of jail time is not the way to fix it.
by Randoley on November 9th, 2009
There is simply no reason to believe that "allowing insurance companies to compete nationwide" would even come close to solving anything. Insurance companies want one thing: profit. That is the only thing they care about. The most profitable customers are the healthy ones with deep pockets. The sick ones with thin pockets would not get served at all, and it's irrational to think anything else would happen. They would continue to be disenfranchised.
I'm not saying the current plans are right, I'm saying "we must do something substantive which takes into account reasonable conclusions about likely outcomes".
So your plan is no plan: let the current villains have a bigger share of the pie. No pass.
Again: every other industrial democracy has solved this problem. What makes us so useless and stupid? I suggest it's people who are thinking like you: being pawns of the corporate megaliths.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
I have no problem with companies making a profit. That is why they are in business. I know you want believe this, but the total profit of insurance companies last year was around 2% and were lower than last year. That is less than Walmart and TuppewWare. Should the government take over them too because they made a profit?
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/insurance-co-profits-good-but-not-breaking-records/
http://citizen-40.tressugar.com/5843648
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Right now I can only buy insurance from a company in my state, so they can pretty much charge as much as they want because I can't look in California and find something cheaper. So naturally it only makes sense if the laws prohibiting that were dropped insurance prices would plummet. As for the people who still could not afford it, that is why we have Medicare and Medicaid.
by Randoley on November 9th, 2009
You're suffering from some sort of predisposition to superstition: WHY would an insurance company take on a single mom with 3 kids who has serious health problems and one of the kids has Downs Syndrome and she her only income is from her McJob?? You have to be a bit touched in the head to think that insurance companies are going to be fighting over her puny dollars.
There's plenty of competition for the profitable customers. There is no competition for the unprofitable customers, nor will there ever be. It's the wrong tool for the job, and only someone who has an irrational fascination for a hammer would try to use it to drive a screw.
This is the problem with free-market purists: they have only thought through their arguments at the 10,000-foot level. When you pose a practical problem with a real-world flavor, they retreat to vague abstractions and theoretical mumblings.
Get a clue: NO INSURANCE COMPANY WANTS THESE PEOPLE.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
That is why there is Medicare and Medicaid. That is why Obama started the CHIP program. We already have ways to take care of these people.
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Why is wrong for insurance companies to make a profit, but it is okay for Walmart of KFC? Why are they evil, but not the rest?
by Randoley on November 9th, 2009
I didn't say it was wrong to make a profit, did I? Inventing more chimera does nothing for your credibility.
Medicare and Medicaid do not cover most of the 40-50 million uninsured. Surely this is not news to you. If you wish to propose some big expansion of those programs to fill the gap, start proposing. Otherwise, what the heck are you saying?
You have no plan or proposal that has had any reasonable amount of thought in it. That's thoughtless, which is consistent with "I don't care". I assert that's your basic position.
I have a great plan -- I go to Kaiser. I love them, and it's reasonably inexpensive. I wish everybody could have something even 1/3 as good as Kaiser. I want to share that. What do you want to share? Abstract philosophy about market purism? How fun for the rest of us.
Get another clue: people are suffering. Ignoring that is morally reprehensible.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
I will quote you from your original post concerning my question,
"Sounds like the sort of vague, sweeping, suspicious generalization of someone who wants a soapbox and a fight."
I think you were talking about yourself in that statement. Everything you have accused me of doing in this thread you are guilty of 3 fold. I can't listen to you any longer. Take this a a win or what ever, but you are not important enough to be adding aggravation to my life. Good bye.
by Randoley on November 9th, 2009
Bottom line: you don't give a shit about people who aren't in your little club... whether that's family or church or whatever. That makes it easy to argue against making available something that is fundamental to the quality of life in a way that people can afford it.
Make no mistake about it: the healthcare debate is being fought across a line in the sand -- those who have the humanity and courage to fight for the poor, vs. those who have the audacity and arrogance to hide out behind platitudes and failed economic theories. It's about the selfish changing the subject frequently enough to make the habit seem normal.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
Dear Hasn'tBeen, people are suffering because they continue to believe the Progressive Liberal propaganda taught to them through out every major city in America. Think ACLU, ACORN,Public Schools, etc. They are not here to help you but to make you a part of the dumbed down slaves that the Progressive Liberal movement needs to get votes and bring the distructive change that they are forcing on America. In the end, you will be even poorer then you are now, not better. That is what happend to Cuba, and it's happening here, if we don't get smart and get a grip on these corrupt politicians.
by Shes Country on November 9th, 2009
Stop talking shit. I am talking about healthcare, period. You're talking about some vague liberal conspiracy that lives mostly between your ears.
Own up: you don't give a shit about people other than yourself and a few select others who seem most like you. It's a question of personal integrity and compassion, or rather... lack of it. When people don't care, it's ridiculous to try to talk sense into them, because they are dead internally -- you might as well be a machine. Lifeless, unconcerned, unable to sense the suffering of others... a cyborg walking through the world under the control of a bunch of pundits on cyberspace or TV.
What's really going on here is selfishness, pure and simple. "I got mine, screw them!" It's morally bankrupt, and it's strutting and preening as if it had something interesting or righteous to say.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
You could use a bit more public education -- maybe you'd learn to spell and punctuate a bit. Or more importantly, maybe you'd learn some values.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
They lie to you and make you feel that you can't get ahead in America, unless the Government helps you. They are purposely creting helpless, dependent people becuase they are easier to convince, that only they can help you, they are making slaves out of you and they are the ones discriminating against you and oppressing you. Until people like you see that, your lives will never get better. When these Progressives get what they want from you, they will toss you right under the bus. Rather then waiting for a hand out that you didn't earn, it's time for many Americans to get a backbone, begin pulling your own weight and start contributing to America again.
by Shes Country on November 9th, 2009
Health care isn't about helping the people get well. It's part of taking control of the economy. Anybody with a brain knows that a country that is on the edge of becomeing bankrupt can't afford this healtcare plan. It is one more way to create revolutionary chaos. Besides, won't it be great to have to spend 5 years in jail and have to pay a huge fine, if you can't afford to purchase the forced health care?
by Shes Country on November 9th, 2009
Health care is a farce, that is being forced on people that don't want that much Government control. Yet another sign that we have commies in the White House. Of course the Health Care plan still has a long way to go and hopefully it will be shot dead, as it should be. I think we need to clean out all of the corrupt politicians in Washington and then figure out a sane way to reorganize health care, so that it does help people and doesn't kill our country.
by Shes Country on November 9th, 2009
Thanks for cleaning up your spelling. Now only if you had something worthwhile to say. Giving more of your tin-hat conspiracy theory is not useful.
WHAT is your proposal to help these people? Drop the irrelevant crap and tell me what you propose to do! And don't give me this trickle-down Reaganomics bullshit... there is no reason to expect healthcare to trickle down to people who can't afford it -- that has never worked anywhere in the world, and certainly hasn't worked here.
If you care about these people, what are you doing to help them? Specifically? If you don't care, why are you pretending anything other than "my viewpoints are dictated by my unwillingness to help?" Be honest about it, it's so much quicker and more refreshing than all this philosophical BS.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
hey hasn't been. no need to insult lifeless machines. I spent several years as such and I still had more compassion and empathy than these elitists.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 9th, 2009
All I want is for people to cut the bullshit: if you don't care, man up and say "I don't care", and be done with it. Stop pretending there's some mysterious principle guiding your actions and viewpoints, stop trying to jack us up and glaze us over with theory and just be straight about it. There's no law that says one has to care, it's OK to be a self-absorbed heartless wretch. But have the decency to call it what it is.
Who knows? Maybe someday you'll be visited by 3 spirits in the middle of the night... it happens.
by HasntBeen on November 9th, 2009
ROFLMBO
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 9th, 2009
Maybe the two of you can tell me why I should care more about people who do nothing to take care of themselves, then they care about themselves? I care enough about them to help them to learn how to take care of them selves and be responisble contributors to our country rather then takers. I don't however care so much that I want to work my ass off all day only to have to make my family suffer while I give it to people who do nothing but take.
by Shes Country on November 11th, 2009
For one thing, poor people in America have far more then poor people in most other countries. By comparison the American poor are rich. On top of that American poor have so many opportunities to be successful, that I have a hard time feeling really bad for them. When we have people coming to America daily, who can't speak english and don't know the culture, yet are able to successfully take advantage of the opportunities that Americans are to lazy to utilize, it makes me angry at the spoiled Americans.
by Shes Country on November 11th, 2009
Ben Franklin once said that; "We should make the poor uncomfortable and kick them out of poverty." I agree. Too many american's have become too dependent and comfortble on the wellfare programs that we already have. Then on top of that we have politicians such as Obama telling them that they can't get ahead and now they are crippled and they are part of what is dragging down our country.
by Shes Country on November 11th, 2009
A: he did not say you had to care about others, he said admit your apathy
B: most poor to everything they can to improve themselves but some things are beyond their control.
C: the man who sweeps the floor at your local grocery store is contributing to society... not only is he minimum wage but the store only gives him 20 hours a week. but without him the store does not operate.
D: executives do nothing but take. find me one executive who's hand has so much as touched the burger you are eating at mcdonalds. ecevutives make big bucks off those burgers they do not touch.
E: poor people in other nations are not expected to shower daily or pay for a place to live. vagrancy is not illegal in the empovrished nations.
F: the opportunities for "success" are limited and the opportunities for employment are reduced because other americans are taking 2+ jobs because 1 job does not put food on the table.
immigrants have opportunities, incentives, and tax breaks citizens don't
ben franklin lived in an era when you could homestead and live off the land, when the sweat of your brow could improve your life rather than just the lives of executives. the reason americans "abuse" the welfare system is because if they get on their feet the rug is yanked out from under them and by getting a slightly better job they lose what help they get leaving them porrer than before.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 11th, 2009
why did the north give a crap about the slaves in the south... all freeing them did was make enemies and increase the cost of cotton.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 11th, 2009
I would agree with most of those points. The main problem with your argument, ScrubJay, is that you're *justifying* your lack of caring. Why would you do that, unless you realized that there was something fundamentally immoral about it? People only offer justifications when they know they're wrong. Someone who is right doesn't need to justify anything.... they're just right, end of story.
The problem with excessive selfishness is that it's based on a false understanding of what a human being is. You are not an island unto yourself. Your life depends on many others, and an appreciation of that is fundamental to being a mature and moral person. So when you start thinking that you are somehow solely responsible for your success and independent of others, you start thinking maybe you don't need them and don't have any obligation to them.
That leads to excessive ego and isolation, and strange distortions of moral logic. Thus the rest of your post.
All Americans are in this boat together. That can be taken to extremes, of course. But you can't simply say that all of the 40-50 million people who can't get or cant' afford health insurance are simply undeserving scum who are lazy and won't work. It's not true, and doing so disrespects their contribution to your life. Ultimately, morality depends on honoring our interconnections with the whole. Pretending those connections don't matter is the starting point for all evil.
by HasntBeen on November 11th, 2009
I do not have health insurance and I have worked all of my life and am currently working.
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My boss has us by the short and curlies. The hospital short hours us so we cannot ever quite make it to where we can get benefits.
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In this economy, in the State of Michigan, this is done VERY commonly. Get another job, you say? Michigan has the worst economy in the Union and I am bloody lucky to HAVE a job.
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In a job that I had in the mid 90's, known for the best benefits package in the Bay Area, including health insurance, they learned how to shaft us. I saw it coming so I did not get nailed. What they did is, if an employee or a relative of the employee came down with an expensive illness, there was reason found to lay them off or fire them. As I moved and right after I quit to do so, I learned that they tried to cut the existing benefits package, gutting the health plan. This resulted in strike breakers being bussed past the picketers as, basically, most of the nursing staff walked.
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I have no clue how that ended up.
by Arisztid on November 11th, 2009
By now being called a lazy bum unwilling to work because I have no health insurance is old hat. It used to bother me but, after enough times, I am inoculated to it.
by Arisztid on November 11th, 2009
"Health care isn't about helping the people get well. It's part of taking control of the economy. Anybody with a brain knows that a country that is on the edge of becomeing bankrupt can't afford this healtcare plan. It is one more way to create revolutionary chaos"
Two points, Scrubjay. America has the worst health care plan in the developed nations. They cover less people than any other of those countries. Yet, per person cost is the highest of them all.
It has been proven that preventive health care is cheaper than the catastrophic health care of those things that are let go. Yet people like you would rather foot the bill for people with pnumonia who have to go to the hospital or die, instead of paying to treat bronchitis. You make no sense at all.
by Keysha on November 11th, 2009
Oh, before anyone bothers, I also do not give a damned when someone tells me "why should I pay for YOUR healthcare!!"
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So, if you want to go that route or any of the others, feel free. I am inoculated to all insults dealing with health insurance and will just shake my head.
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As far as excuses and arguments, I do not give a damn about them either.
by Arisztid on November 11th, 2009
aris and keysha, welcome to the argument, nice to have another lazy worthless uneducated bum :) we sacks of crap need to stick together!!! ok, I may not have an education that acording to the elitists will make me successful like you do (just starting mine now) but even without it I am an excelent highly intelegent worker. while I was in airport security I was so good I was faster on the X-ray than 85%+ and constantly in the top 5% on simulated threats caught (not to mention assessed far fewer nonthreats as suspect than average) yet just like you my excelence got me jack squat over the incompetent... and those with the WORST people skills (on top of weak screening skills) were the ones promoted. hard work really pays off my butt!!! hard work by the grunts leads to success of the executives.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 12th, 2009
Boooo hoooo hooo! When did Americans go from being proud, self sufficient people, who take responsibility for their own existance and turn into dependent,sniveling victems, who want the government to wipe their asses and blow their noses from craddle to grave? Is being babysat really worth loosing your freedom and your country? Because that is where we are heading, if we don't get a grip. Weak people make great targets for a corrupt government that wants revolution. I think you should find a few Cubans, to educate you on that.
by Shes Country on November 12th, 2009
I say that people that think like you do, are the selfish ones because you expect everybody else to give up their freedoms because you can't take care of yourself. I don't mind helping people but in my mind, help is showing people how to take care of themselves, not giving them everything that they think they are intitled to, even if they didn't earn it. If you really cared you would see that your idea of giving people everything for free, only makes slaves out of them . Plus, there is no such thing as something for FREE. The USA can't afford the hand outs any more.
by Shes Country on November 12th, 2009
And your argument about why people in America who have so many opportunities in front of them, still can't get ahead, is lame and pathetic. It is exactly the reason so many can't get ahead, you spend way too much time thinking of all the reasons that you can't rather then why you can. I think you are a prime example of the brainwashing that so many spoiled people in America have been subject to.
by Shes Country on November 12th, 2009
I have news for you, very few people begin their careers in the executive suite, making hords of money. In fact most people begin exactly where your argument started, sweeping floors, fliping burgers, working in the mail room, etc. Ambitious people use jobs like that as a learning tool and a stepping stone up the ladder to where they want to go. Tehy don't bitch about opportunity. There are many stepping stones along the path to success, it isn't quick, it isn't easy and you have to work hard. You have to pay your dues in life.
by Shes Country on November 12th, 2009
you are right scuba jay... it is time to man up. it is time to take this nation back from those with entitlement issues who have enslaved my people. men of america! rise up and take our freedom and our country back from the userpers! get the grip on your assault rifles and eliminate the opressors. the government does not want a revolution, they and their owner lobyists are happy with the status quo.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 12th, 2009
as for brainwashing... you have bough the brainwashing that "hard work leads to success" luck and butt kissing lead to personal success IF noone else does the butt kissing better than you.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 12th, 2009
Along the way up, they are smart and live at or under their means. Which means, they rent a frugal apartment, they buy a used car, they don't spend money on things they can't afford, such as big TVs, 2 or 3 satellite tv dishes, eating out etc. They spend wisely and save what they can to invest and use later to achive their goals. They make wise choices. It takes work to get to the top it dosn't just happen because you wish it would.
by Shes Country on November 12th, 2009
people these days seem to think that they should have everything handed to them right from the get go. You want to be paid top dollar for jobs that aren't worth top dollar. If you choose to work at a low paying job your whole life, then you choose your lifestyle. If that's what you want then own it and be responsible for your choice. If you aren't happy with a company that you work for, start your own and do a better job of taking care of your people and turn out a better quality product and put the other out of buiness. That's how you make change in a free country. You don't make change by taking freedoms away.
by Shes Country on November 12th, 2009
You are oppressing yourself by believing the lies that are told to you and you are helping to oppress the others around you telling them the same thing. ou live in the land of opportunity. Right now, you could find a 100 people in Cuba, China, and many other countries around the world that would gladly trade places with you, so that thy could have the opportunities that you are calling oppressing.
by Shes Country on November 12th, 2009
hmm. I have a 15 year old minivan.my tv is a CRT that fits in an entertainment center which my dad built nearly 20 years ago. I build my own captains bed and my sons dresser came from my (soon to be) ex wife's childhood. my second TV (another CRT) I got from a friend for 50 bucks 7 years ago. my stereo was $30 at a pawn shop. it is a miracle that my ikia computer desk has lasted through 5 moves. I put cardboard up in all my windows to lower my heating and cooling costs. all my lightbulbs are CF (and I store all the ones what were in the apartment so when I move out the CFbulbs go with me) I make much of my own food from scratch to include bread and potato onion soup. my PS2 controler was broken and rather than replace it I disassembled and repared it. I have not bought a non-work article of clothing for 3-4 years. my brother is living with my son and I. I have been a human guinneapig testing drugs for BPH and cancer. I do NO recreational drugs, not even a daily coffee. I have not seen a movie in theater in 3 years. so tell me, where should I cut corners? should my son and I live out of my van? guess what, that is illegal!!!!
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 12th, 2009
ken jennings, the jeopardy millionaire, has great qualifications. he has a good high paying job. when asked why he did not do so well on questions about bussinessmen he said "I hate them, come the revolution we'll kill em all" yes it was joking.... but there is a kernel truth in his jest. after I get my mechanical engineering degree and am able to get a good job and produce several of my innovations I will still believe that in a society the wealth of the few is built on the backs of the many and as such the many deserve a respectable wage. noone is asking for laborers to earn top dollar.... just a respectable wage. what they are worth. and they are worth a hell of a lot more than one half of one percent OF one pecent what operah is worth. yes I did say "of one percent" twice on purpose because fell time minimum wage is actualy less than THAT even.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 12th, 2009
You've oversimplified the situation to cartoonish levels, ScrubJay. But you've made it clear that you don't give a shit about others, and that was the point I was making earlier. All the noise about self-sufficiency is a smokescreen to disguise your lack of moral values. The rationale you're using can be used to justify any level of indifference and egotism.
The bad news is this: you won't ever know what it's like to be an authentic human being until you care about somebody besides yourself... for no reason than the fact that they're human. That won't tell you what to do about healthcare, but it will redeem you from the self-imposed isolation of angry ignorance that you've wrapped yourself in.
Like I said earlier: nobody can make you care. That's between you and life. All we can do is point out that you're half-dead already, and life is short.
by HasntBeen on November 12th, 2009
I am not in the argument but thankyou, TAP.
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I was only here to state my piece and continue reading.
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I have argued this one too many times to bother anymore. Nothing is going to change their minds.
by Arisztid on November 12th, 2009
"I don't mind helping people but in my mind, help is showing people how to take care of themselves"
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I've been trying for 3 years to get a job. But I have a problem I am in constant pain. I had surgery in Jan, and still have pain. The doctors cannot find out what all is wrong (I need 2 knee replacements, for a start), so I can't get disability. Tell me, Scrubjay, if you like helping, show me how to get a job in this economy, when I walk in for an interview, and am in obvious pain. Pain too strong to hide - am on Vicodin for it. The potential employer sees health costs and other issues, and hires someone else. What do *I* do? How do *I* get by, without those 'free' handouts? I have worked all my life, now ask for help, and there is none offered. And people like you whine because we want HELP with healthcare, so we can get on our feet.
by Keysha on November 12th, 2009
In case she was not clear, she NEEDS the two knee replacements. She has been told that she has no other options by numerous doctor, including an orthopedic surgeon. They are sad that they cannot help.
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She cannot get them because she has no insurance.
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I see her writhe in pain, sometimes puking from it. Yes, I am going to die young of a cardiac ailment but my fate is MUCH better than hers.
by Arisztid on November 12th, 2009
So it's hard to add much to that -- if that kind of stuff doesn't get to you, ScrubJay... I question whether you're even human. THAT is the consequence of your philosophical purism. Multiply it by millions of people, and you have a tragedy of epic proportions, kept in place by a cadre of selfish wooden puppets who abuse economic theory to avoid confronting their own lack of humanity.
The moral imperative is clear: the richest country on Earth has a sacred duty to solve this problem. Anything less is failure, anything less makes a mockery of all our success.
by HasntBeen on November 12th, 2009
I wish they would just come out and tell the truth too, HB. I have had some who actually do and, while I think that particular truth is vile, I respect them more than the ones that keep hiding the truth in endless rhetoric.
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Want to take any bets about whether or not he owns up to the truth that he could care less, admits that people like Keysha should be helped (I do not give a sh*t about myself), or keeps on spouting the same tired rhetoric?
by Arisztid on November 12th, 2009
WOW. I am absolutely speechless which doesn't happen often but I am speechless. I am sorry Aris and Keysha.
by Scrappy on November 12th, 2009
Thankyou Scrappy but I am at peace with my situation. I am not at peace with Keysha's.
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While I will not argue with people like ScrubJay, I will comment to others in threads like this if I feel like it.
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Oh I meant "owns up to the truth that he COULDN'T care less."
by Arisztid on November 12th, 2009
I don't make bets like that.
Character is earned by sacrifice and love and paying attention and being willing to risk your own comfort for something larger and more worthwhile. We need a national conversation about character... something which turns the bigots and haters and selfish windbags red with shame. There needs to be a new wave of passion for waking up and making our huge potential something more than a tired cliche.
In my experience, those waves sometimes pick up some unexpected fish, so I hate to say 'never' about anybody.
by HasntBeen on November 12th, 2009
thank you aris for corecting that phraise :) I have actualy posted questions about people misquoting that phraise :)
HB. interesting that they would hide behind the very economic theory that has destroyed the economy of our nation.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 13th, 2009
I edited my answer, which is a bit risky since a lot of people rated the original. But I think it captures the situation better than the original, so I'll beg off with that.
by HasntBeen on November 13th, 2009
you know what is funny about the labeling of all people who believe society has a responsibility to it's members are liberals? I am conservative. and with him saying that the government is trying to have a revolution... if liberals are the ones trying to push welfare and welfare is how the government will be able to trigger a revolution then why aren't the liberals the ones who believe in gun rights as those are what give the citizenry the ability to revolt.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 13th, 2009
I hadn't thought of that one.
I have little use for broad categories like 'liberal' and 'conservative'. To me, that leads too much to the high-school clique mentality, with everybody taking sides and supporting one anothers' delusions simply because they're on the same team. Almost every policy or social issue is too complex to fit into those crude categories, as you've pointed out here.
My viewpoint is driven by a radical commitment to balance: every perspective has something of value to offer, but the trouble is each one is trying to take over and run the whole show, as if they were the only valid perspective. Where are the integrators? Where are the people wise enough to mix and match as needed for each situation, without getting stuck in becoming rabid ideologues or puppets of some belief system?
So I end up making enemies on all sides, because I'm trying to break people free from their addiction to a single viewpoint. That annoys everybody.
by HasntBeen on November 13th, 2009
I make enemies on both sides too but more liberals than conservatives.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 13th, 2009
I am leaning towards liberal. Does that mean I have to dislike you, TAP?
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I hope not. :P
by Arisztid on November 13th, 2009
Ahhhh Mr Wimpet, he sounds like the perfect liberal and probably the one who is running things in California, Michigan, New York and now the White House, because you see, everything that Liberals touch turns to pure crap.
by Shes Country on November 13th, 2009
You missed the point. Not that that is news to anybody.
When you get your moral compass fixed, come on back and we'll talk.
by HasntBeen on November 13th, 2009
Liberals seem to think that money grows on trees, or is it printing presses? What ever, thanks to Liberal spending our dollar is now worth 30% and shrinking by the day. If you feel that you are working hard but not getting paid enough, thank your liberal friends in Washington. Liberals are the ones who created the idea of diversity. Liberals are the ones who keep stirring the racial pot because it is politacally helpful for them, just as it is to keep people as poor as possible. Poor people make great slaves to their government. which is what you get when you let your government take care of you, slavery. Welfare keeps people comfortabley poor and enslaved.
by Shes Country on November 13th, 2009
Now if you think that conservatives and even a number of liberals too are angry about the idea of "SPREADING THE WEALTH", let me try to explain in a simple way, why. Imagine if you will, you and I and all the others on this question are out for a nice hike in the woods for a few days. We each have our backpacks and bedroll. As we start out it's great, everybody is happy and friendly, birds chirping, nice sunshine.
by Shes Country on November 13th, 2009
Then as the day wears on, about half on the hike start to get tired especially on the uphill part of the trek. So they ask if the other half could carry their bedrolls for awhile. So they agree, figureing that maybe all of you just have sore feet or something and tomorrow you will feel better and it will be all okay. Bedrolls aren't that big but the extra burdens are heavey for those carrying their own stuff too. But it's all good still.
by Shes Country on November 13th, 2009
I forgot option number four: ignore the subject completely.
by Arisztid on November 13th, 2009
Then the next day rolls around and the half that was too tired to carry their bedrolls asks if the other half could continue to carry their stuff and also a some of the smaller items from their backpacks too, so their load isn't quite so much. After all the half that are carrying everything seem to be so much more inshape for such a steep hike, they should be able to help out that way.
by Shes Country on November 13th, 2009
So off they go one half of the people on the hike feeling much more free not having so much to carry and the other half feeling digruntled. Each day of the hike continues on with one bunch of people carrying their own burdens and those of the other bunch. By now the backs and feet of those carrying everything are getting verysore and tired and they aren't enjoying the trip any more, while the ones with the lighted load are walking along happily enjoying the day, with out hardly a care in the world. By now the ones carrying everything are getting extremely upset and even hating the other half and thinking that they are very weak, lazy and selfish.
by Shes Country on November 13th, 2009
End of story. If everybody pulls their own weight in life, eveybody has more. When one bunch expects the other bunch to do for them, they create resentment and they eventually drag everybody down into the cesspool that they are in. Even animals know that to keep weak membes in their heards or packs is a liability to the entire group, that is why they leave weak members by the wayside to fend for themselves. The weak are dragging down America, if they don't take the help they already have and use it, the problem will only get worse. America can't afford to continue to babysit everybody, including illegals.
by Shes Country on November 13th, 2009
I am not gainst helping people who are truely disabled and the old. That is what we have SSI, Medicare for. We don't need more programs. Fix the ones we have, that are so mismanaged by the government already, that it isn't even funny. And screen people better so that we stop having so many people who are pretending to be disabled just to live free on everybody else.
by Shes Country on November 14th, 2009
Of course I do know people who live with extreme pain and work for a living still, because they are too proud and strong to ever take a hand out from anybody. My grandfather worked on a cattle ranch with extreme arthritis that disfigured his hands until he was well into his 80s. Drove cattle on horse back, roped, built fences, worked cattle, truely hard work. America needs more of the strong old timers that never give up, like we used to have.
by Shes Country on November 14th, 2009
People like that are what built America and we need people like that to save America from the road of distruction that it is going down right now.
by Shes Country on November 14th, 2009
What about people who have put into the system their entire lives and now are screwed? I shall use myself and Keysha;
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1) I have worked since I was 10. I got my SS# when I was 12 (or was it 14). I got my first official job (not yardwork or the like) when I was 16. At that time I started paying taxes. I have worked my entire life paying taxes, sometimes with health insurance, sometimes not. I put myself through school.
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Now the economy sucks, my congenital cardiac ailment is becoming more noticeable. My employer short hours me because he can and there are no other jobs.
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So, I am going to die young of a treatable cardiac condition.
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Do I deserve this?
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contd...
by Arisztid on November 14th, 2009
"I am not gainst helping people who are truely disabled and the old. That is what we have SSI, Medicare for. We don't need more programs.......Of course I do know people who live with extreme pain and work for a living still, because they are too proud and strong to ever take a hand out from anybody."
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I spoke to a woman the last time I was in the hospital. Her brother was in a coma, on life support. They applied for disability for him, to help defray the costs a bit. He was DENIED. Want to know why? Because some helpful soul decided he was still able to work. While in a coma and on life support.
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My nephew is dying of AIDS. HE cannot get disability, because he, according to some helpful soul, does not have a life-threatening illness.
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My sister has been trying for eleven YEARS to get disability. She has such a bad spine she cannot have an operation on it. SEVEN doctors have said she is completely disabled. But she is denied. Even though she can barely walk, can't sit long, or stand for long. Even walking at home she falls frequently, because she has no feeling below the waist at times.
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But she should support herself? Have a job, ignore her pain? Right.
by Keysha on November 14th, 2009
2) Keysha
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She started working when she was 16, paying into social security. She worked her way through college (degree in computers). She worked up to about 3 years ago when the economy went into the crapper. The only jobs out here are in the medical field (that is where I work), truckers, and obvious scams. The few jobs outside those fields have immense competition and people with Master's degrees are fighting for jobs at McDonalds. I am lucky to have gotten one of the medical jobs because the competition is FIERCE out here for them.
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So, she is obsolete in this economy.
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She blew her knee hauling on a hot water heater and had no health insurance. This degraded and deteriorated, putting more and more pressure on her other knee until it, too, is ruined.
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If she could get the knee replacements she requires she could go back to work. She is obviously in a great deal of pain when she walks. She might be able to hide the other pain due to unknown medical conditions ...
by Arisztid on November 14th, 2009
... conditions which go undiagnosed because the tests to diagnose them cost too much for the local clinic for the poor to cover.
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Does she deserve what she is undergoing?
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Would you call Keysha or I unproductive members of society who are asking for handouts?
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I am still working at 47 and am going to work until I die of the cardiac condition. Keysha has filled out thousands of applications and, if she gets an actual interview, they see her pain, that is unhidable, and deny her.
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She would work with the pain. The EMPLOYERS see her flinches and other symptoms of pain that she cannot hide and deny her. In this job market they are not going to take someone who obviously has medical conditions. That costs the company too much.
by Arisztid on November 14th, 2009
You gripe that people do not work despite pain.
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Tell that to me. I am not in a lot of pain yet but I have problems because the cardiac disorder is starting to kick in as I age. I do not stop.
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I am going to continue to work until I die.
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You might be able to convince yourself that Keysha, because she is not working despite the horrid circumstances, falls into another category.
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I do not. I am pointing this out not to get sympathy for myself (I do not give a sh*t), rather I am taking your wiggle and excuse room away.
by Arisztid on November 14th, 2009
So, ScrubJay -- I assert that your cute stories about hiking trips are not going to compete in eloquence with the personal stories of suffering like that. Not even on the scale.
What you're concerned about has a legitimate core: you want fairness. Justice. You don't want lazy people to get free stuff from the people who work. Guess what: EVERYBODY ALREADY AGREES WITH THAT!!!!!
The problem is, that people who do deserve... people who have tried hard and sacrificed... are being screwed in massive numbers. Your argument presumes that anybody who is on the wrong side of this problem is an undeserving lout who just wants to redistribute wealth!
Of course, there are people like that, and any solution needs to do it's best to manage that problem. But you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater -- you don't say "well, screw them all" just because there are some bad apples. You do better at finding the bad apples.
Ultimately this argument is about right and wrong. It's about justice, and fairness, and compassion. It's about the world's richest country having most of the first-world's worst suffering and poverty. Other modern democracies absolutely *laugh* at America's stubborn inability to address this problem. The health care systems in other countries are, in most cases, wildly popular with the public and no politician could possibly dismantle them, just as even the most virulent small-government advocates in the U.S. have no chance of bringing down Social Security or Medicare... none whatsoever.
Those programs are wanted by the people. Remember the people? The ones the government was supposed to serve and be accountable to? We are the people: you, me, Arisztid, KeyshaJ, TapriceCTR, Randoley, Cognition, etc.... we're ALL the people -- not just you and your buddies -- not just the people who can afford medical insurance. The world is not divided into liberals and conservatives, it's all just US. United States.
So until your moral compass can orient itself around the well being of the WHOLE, it's confused and spinning in circles, or pointing the wrong way. That's why I suggested you get it fixed before coming back.
by HasntBeen on November 14th, 2009
aris... yeah I guess we have to hate eachother now. because it is all about which side you are on not weather you can have a respectful logical debate. :) heck, I do not even think we have been on opposite sides of any debate yet, but when and if we do I doubt we'll have any problems :)
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scuba... are you unaware that our dollar value was decimated durring bush's administration? low wages are what keep the people enslaved. people can't quit because everyone is working 2+ jobs just to pay the bills taking up the jobs that those who WANT to work could take. your backpack analogy is BULL CRAP. not everyone has an equal weight backpack and the "lazy" are not just carrying the packs of the elites.... but the elites themselves. and those elites weigh up to 23,000 times as much as the "lazy"
the grunt laborer is who built america and made it great so long ago, it is the disrespect and denial of the dignity of a living wage which has destroyed america.
you pull out hypothetical and analogy and expect it to trump the real world stories of aris, keysha, and me... and guess what, I have no problem admitting aris and keysha have worked harder than me, but do they think I deserve poverty? I would wager they have worked a hell of a lot harder than you too.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 14th, 2009
Ah damn, TAP. Do you think the world will come to an end if we forgo that hate stuff? I think that would be the way to do it.
by Arisztid on November 14th, 2009
a liberal and conservative respecting eachother... probably going to happen in 2012 and will trigger yellowstones reuption
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 14th, 2009
Or the sun to go nova.
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Hmmm... that might be entertaining. Well, in the few seconds before we are all french fries.
by Arisztid on November 14th, 2009
as long as the french fry first :)... sorry.... I couldn't resist a french dig.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 14th, 2009
We'll all go together when we go all suffused by a incandescent glow...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frAEmhqdLFs
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I have been a Tom Lehrer fan forever.
by Arisztid on November 14th, 2009
85% of Americans do not want the current health care bill that is being shived down everybodies throats. That bill is a disaster and will only make the problems that our country already has, even worse. It is going to raise taxes on everybody, not just the rich. It will make insurance more expensive. It is going to take away from the elderly since medicare is going to be cut back and it is going to kill jobs. Not to mention that it takes away from peoples abilites to choose for thmselves.
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
There are already many doctors who plan to abandon the profession if the bill goes through and many others who say they won't even bother going into the medical profession. The claim that th bill will hamper their ability to perform their work to the highest standard, and people will die. People who can't afford to purchse insurance will be fined $1000 and sent to jail for up to 5 years. There needs to be change but the bill there is now, isn't it. It needs to be killed.
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
And why do you have such faith that the US Government can oversee a successful health care program? They haven't been able to successfully operate anything yet. Social Security, Medicare, the Post Office, AmTrak and everything else the government touches is a disaster. Health care will be a disaster too. Medicare is well known for turning more people away for medical procedures then the insurance companies do. What makes you think a new Government run Health Care program won't be the same?
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
The Government run VA Hospitals are a disaster too. My cousin passed away in one a few months ago. They didn't even have clean sheets and blankets for the beds. His wife had to go out to a store and purchase bed linens, so that she could change his bed. What other hospital have you ever been too that didn' keep the bed linens clean and ready to grab and use? If a Government run hospital can't even keep linens washed and ready, what else are they dropping the ball on? It's a well known fact that VA hospitals all over the country are mismanaged. This is what we are going to get with a government run health care program and people will fall through the cracks and not get care and probably die.
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
We need to get the corrupt jack asses that have been running our government for a very long time now, out and find good smart people that can create something that will work for everybody. And everybody needs to work together, unlike what Obama and his minions are doing now.
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
So now, to avoid admitting his own opinion and looking the ass, he avoids it altogether.
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I just wish he would tell the truth: he does not give a damned about anything but his wallet.
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Now in order to say that Keysha and I do not deserve healthcare, that he won't pay for it, he would like the ass. So, avoid it.
by Arisztid on November 15th, 2009
If all of the 'I won't pay for YOUR healthcare' crowd would have shut up and worked together to come up with a plan, then this would not be here for you to complain about now.
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But so many of you have b*tched for so long, that no one would do anything decent, until now, when lawmakers have tacked on garbage and are virtually shoving it down everyone's throat.
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The time to care, and do something constructive came, not just recently, but long ago. You don't want what is there? Blame yourself, for voting down, b*tching, whining, and moaning about any attempt to put something in place.
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The fault is yours. And those like you. You have no one to blame but the one in the mirror, when you are the only one in the room.
by Keysha on November 15th, 2009
If Obama and Pelosi really had the needs of the people in mind, they wouldn't be creating such a monstrosity that hardly anybody can read and understand. They would make the bill short and to the point and make sure that it can be read and understood by the average Americans many of whom only read at a 6th grade level. The reason they don't do these things is because they are hiding all kinds of other crap in the bill. The health bill is not about the people and their good health, it is about more power for the government.
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
I meant:
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"Now in order to say that Keysha and I do not deserve healthcare, that he won't pay for it, he would LOOK like the ass. So, avoid it."
by Arisztid on November 15th, 2009
I still mantain that if people took more responsibility for themselves there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. So nope, the fault is yours. There are too many people who always want to blame the other guy for why they are where they are in life. Most of the time they only need to look to themselves and the choices they have made.
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
Ah, there you go. Closer to the truth.
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Now, come on now, tell the WHOLE truth.
by Arisztid on November 15th, 2009
While you are at it, how am I lacking in responsibility when I have a job, am short houred because they can, it runs rampant in this economy and in this State?
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I am working, doing what I can to keep Keysha and I alive.
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Now, tell me where I am lacking in responsibility.
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Lets hear it. Or, tell the truth.
by Arisztid on November 15th, 2009
And what would that be? I think I already did say the truth once, a few entries back. I said that I'm, not going to care more about you then you care for yourself. I think it's time Americans started to show a little tough love because the give aways are only helping people to get too comfortable in their misery and it becomes a way of life. I know more people who have spent their entire lives on welfare complaining about how poor they are and what victems they are. They should be using such programs as a stepping stone out of their misery. I'm willing to help somebody for a while but if they keep doing what they are doing and don't help themselves, then that's it, they are on their own.
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
All I am going to get out of you is rhetoric and you using this thread as a platform to stand on for your circular arguments.
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I only have one thing left to say to you:
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If you and your ilk ever lose their jobs or their healthcare is cut back, I shall smile.
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Have a lovely day.
by Arisztid on November 15th, 2009
A lot of people are having to work more then one job these days. I know people who have 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet. Don't be picky about what you do. Sell stuff on eBay, that's what I do. You have a computer, get creative and think of ways to make money with it. People who are successful in life are creative thinkers and they try every good idea they have until something works. The biggest loosers end up being the biggest winners because they think with positive energy rather then negative energy and they never give up.
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
Also, I don't believe that I ever said that "YOU" specifically were being irresposible, or anybody else in the conversation. After all I don't know you. I am generalizing according to what I see around me, where I live. And that would be people who live on SSI because they claim to have bad backs or some other problem that they say keeps them from working and then they are out playing basketball or going skiing and acting like nothing was ever wrong with them. Or people that live on welfare all their lives, yet they always have money for cigarettes, beer, and a whole host of other crap they don't need to be buying on my tax dollars. Our country can't afford to keep supporting this kind of thing.
by Shes Country on November 15th, 2009
"After all I don't know you" is the first really honest thing you've said in this conversation. That is precisely the point: you're indulging your dull-witted craving to make vast generalizations about people you don't know. "They're all lazy or irresponsible". That's crap. Most are not. It's the Great Lie of healthcare that the opponents don't want anybody to realize. These people are just like you and I, and got caught without a chair when the music stopped. They're us. They're Americans.
Either we have the wisdom and compassion and intelligence to take care of our own, or we don't... and we're basically animals.
by HasntBeen on November 15th, 2009
scuba I also do not support the current health care bill... because it is nearly 2,000 pages long. that intricasy is what makes it so that systems are hard for those who need them and easy for those who learn to manipulate them. amtrak should have been allowed to diedecades ago just like AIG and the other companies with 6+ figure executives that were bailed out. those wages are why the company failed and those wages are why the masses have such low wages. people working multiple jobs are why america has a 10% unemployment rate, not laziness as you and your ilk insist. americans cant afford to save for a rainy day and rainy days are destined to come. just keep yourself insulated from these opinions in the real world because when the aristocracy colapses these opinions place you on the side of the executives and you and your family may be taken to the guillotine. I will vote against executing the aristocrats, but will not be bothered if my side loses that vote.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 15th, 2009
Hasn'tBeen, the great lie of health care is that our country can afford it. The truth is we can't. We are on the fast track to bankruptcy and our dollar is failing. WE ARE BROKE! Of course I know people who think that they should be intitled to freebies don't understand what broke means. Our moron that we have elected president is in China begging for more money as we speak and his minions are printing more money as we speak. The more loans we get and the more they print money the worse our problems are going to be. Eventually nobody in America is going to be rich. And then who is going to pay for all the intitlemet programs that you think we should have? If you are so smart, tell me who?
by Shes Country on November 18th, 2009
TAPrice, for a taste of what it's like once a country has killed all capitalism and sent the wealthy packing, and the government takes over, MOVE TO CUBA. Once upon a time in Cuba the people made good wages and had plentiful jobs and then the government steped in and now they hardly make enough money to get buy on, they have food shortages and they have few jobs. Doesn't that sound great? It's no wonder so many try to escape when ever possible and come to America. American's are headed in the same direction if they don't stop being such babies and stop crying. Your current President isn't making it better either, eveything he is doing is killing our economy. I'm not so sure that isn't the plan.
by Shes Country on November 18th, 2009
rant and rave yet never touch any points made by us. never touch the argument that the reason america is colapsing because the masses are too poor to support the fat asses in their executive salaries. never touch that your beloved executives are begging to be bailed out dispite their 6+ figure salaries, and never touch the argument that the poor are working 2+ jobs just to stay too broke to help support a healthy economy. the poor are working harder than the executives. and intelligence has the ability to have a logical debate rather than just spout rhetoric "cuba", "hard work leads to success", "poor people deserve their poverty because they are lazy". here is some much more applicable rhetoric "aristocracies crumble" since when aristocracies colapse the wealthy are often executed... does that mean that executives creating an aristocracy would be deemed suicide by proxy since they claim to be intelligent and as such should be able to see it comming?
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 18th, 2009
Only in capitalism does the person that does the least amount of work earn the most money. CEO of Ford, versus an assembly line worker. who works the hardest? who earns the most?
by olan black on November 19th, 2009
The facts are that the big companies don't need you. They just go to other countries and then you have no jobs, which is the reason we are haveing problems now. And the ones who haven't gone to other countries are broke because they can no longer afford the American worker, who wants more but works less.
by Shes Country on November 19th, 2009
People like you are pricing yourselves right out of work. And if being a CEO was so easy, you'd probably be one by now. We have a government that is killing our economy as fast as they can and they don't seem to be stopping any time soon. And no, they should not give bail outs to corporations that screwed themselves up. Those people are just as bad as the poor people who want hand outs. Ihave no respect for either because both are killing our country. You both are making it harder and harder for the working stiff in the middle to get any place. Wake up! We can't afford more give aways to aybody. We have a 12 trillion dollar deficit and it is growing every day.
by Shes Country on November 19th, 2009
every CEO needs grunt workers. what has killed the economy is the lack of a customer base. the companies which outsource are destroying their customer base. they are minimizing this nation right out of being able to support an economy. your blind faith in unbridled capitolism is what has made it harder and harder for the working stiff to get any place. as capitolism is left to it's own divices it will destroy itself like a timber industry which saves money by not replanting. guess what, the forrests are gone.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 19th, 2009
The timber industry is something I know a lot about. The environmental movement groups like Earth First are the big culprits in why the timber industry is on the rocks. Since anybody with a brain knows that environmentalism is all about politics, I'll just say that our corrupt government is at fault here too. In the end, it's all a part of controling the economy.
by Shes Country on November 20th, 2009
You are 100% wrong when you say that the timber companies don't replant trees. Timber companies own large tracts of land through out the United States but most of their holdings would be in the North West and two of the biggest companies would be Plum Creek Timber and Weyerhaeuser,they have intire forests of replanted tress. The interesting thing here is, that their holdings are worth so much, that our government has been trying it's hardest to keeping these companies from harvesting their own trees because the government wants them.
by Shes Country on November 20th, 2009
These timber companies have been replanting what they harvest since the early 1900s. And if you talk to old timers, you will find out that woodsmen have been replanting even before then. Besides the timber companies that have been replanting trees, the U.S. Forest Service has also been hard at work replanting trees for just as long. They replant old clear cuts, they replant after fires and they replant after their own timber sales. I know this to be fact because I have planted many of their trees in the past. You want to know what hard work is, try hiking around on terrain that is so steep only a mountain goat could appreciate it, with a 50lb backpack on full of seedlings and a pulaski, for 10 hours a day.
by Shes Country on November 20th, 2009
And NO the forests are not gone. You are taking all the propaganda too seriously.
by Shes Country on November 20th, 2009
reread my answer. I did not say the timber industry does not plant trees, I made an analogy. the minimizing of worker wages is like a timber industry trying to save money by not replanting. I did not say the timber industry is doing it. yes I do know the green movement is all politics and that global warming would actualy be more of a boon than a bane to the entire ecosystem. the forrest I was talking about being gone is the consumers. again, it is called an analogy. I know the timber industry replants trees, I am from WA and see the annual growth.
by TAPriceCTR s son is wearing his COAT on November 20th, 2009
ScrubJay, it's crap to say the U.S. can't afford healthcare. We are already spending more per-capita than other industrialized countries, and getting less results. 16% of GDP is an enormous outlay for a country with an economy of our size. We need to be more efficient in how we spend -- insurance administration alone accounts for 22% of total costs -- and we need to cover as many people as possible. The former is just good use of resources, the latter is a moral requirement.
So you're on the wrong side both of the business issue and the ethical issue. More ranting doesn't make that any less true.
by HasntBeen on November 24th, 2009