Do you think you can cheat on someone if you really love them?

Thank you for a thoughful answer.

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by on the journey on November 5th, 2009

I should admit that I was never able to make an "open relationship" work myself. Whenever my SO or I began an affair with another person, things would go downhill. I believe it was due to jealousy and insecurity. It may even be embedded in our DNA, for all I know. In general, if one of you has an affair with a third person, it's better to keep it to yourself. Telling the other will usually lead to a fight, and maybe a breakup.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 5th, 2009

>>Whenever my SO or I began an affair with another person, things would go downhill.
That's a curious statement. That sounds like you both repeated behaviour that had a predicted outcome - that the relationship would go downhill.It's self-defeating. And I'd dispute that the reason affairs may damage a relationship is due to "immaturity and jealousy." There are spoken and unspoken agreements in any relationship that each feel is the 'accepted norm". If those are broken, trust is lost and that's where the damage comes from, not the actual affair. Keeping it to yourself - ie covering it up or lying about it, isn't likely to work for you long-term either. If you're keeping secrets like that, you're with the wrong person.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 5th, 2009

>>a curious statement....

I was referring to different S.O.'s, over a period of time.
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>>I'd dispute the reason....
Go ahead and dispute; I don't know anything about relationships. That doesn't stop me from giving free advice to others. Psychiatry /pro bono,/ you know. I'm not always free; sometimes I charge the standard rate:
http://contribute.chron.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/9/13db229c-16e9-421e-8977-e27c3dc6e708.Large.jpg

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 6th, 2009

OK Lucy.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 6th, 2009

With one of my S.O.s we agreed to have an 'open relationship.' Dumbass me; it was my idea and she met lots of guys she liked. She finally went off to live with one of them.
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I practically forced her to leave and get her own place. I can tolerate the same woman for a few months, and then I feel trapped. Either I leave or she does; doesn't matter who. I even helped her find an apt. After she was gone I missed her. Love stinx. :)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 6th, 2009

I guess it depends what you're looking for but my instincts are that if you introduce lots of variables into a relationship, the greater the chance of instability. Not many people handle constant change and challenges to their own sense of security; it's bad enough in a relationship of just two people, negotiating differences in upbringing, attitude and reactions, let alone adding more. I don't know anyone who has managed a long-term open relationship, and even a couple I knew who occasionally introduced a third person, their relationship seemed quite unhappy. The third person provided a very temporary kin of thrill and overall seemed to weaken their relationship.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 6th, 2009

I like instability and insecurity. A young therapist once told me that people with instable childhoods tend to look for the same in their adult lives. All my life, I've dismissed stable and predictable relationships as terribly, terminally boring.
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That doesn'e mean they'd appear boring in another person's eyes; but _I_ feel bored, and then I want out.

OUT-OUT-OUT-OUT-OUT! (Old saying)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 7th, 2009

I like variety and excitement and activity - but I wouldn't call it instability and insecurity. Let's say..I like a certain amount of predictability but not to the point where I feel change isn't possible. If I truly liked total unpredictablity I would be sailing singlehandedly around the world in a kayak, and I'm not. In fact I do live a fairly sedentary life and probably will do until all the kids leave home. Then I figure my choices are more my own. My life before my kids was more adventurous, embraced more colour and change, but now is more rewarding and I wouldn't swap the feelings I get from being loved by them for anything in the world. Different strokes, I guess.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 7th, 2009

I don't see why stable relationships HAVE to be boring or predictable btw - it depends on the people involved and how they interact.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 7th, 2009

I'm sure you're right. I flunked relationships. You might as well explain the Brandenburg concertos to the deaf, or Miró's "El bello pájaro descifrando lo desconocido a una pareja de enamorados" to the blind.
http://www.espanolsinfronteras.com/im%C3%A1genes/%C3%8Dndice%20de%20Biograf%C3%ADas%20-%20Joan%20Mir%C3%B3%20-%20El%20bello%20p%C3%A1jaro%20descifrando%20lo%20desconocido%20a%20una%20pareja%20de%20enamorados.jpg
:(
>>being loved by them
How do they show it? Just an example or two. I envy you.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 9th, 2009

The girls often walk up to me and just hug me for no particular reason. Che always asks if he can do anything for me if he thinks I'm sad about something. They often tell me they feel lucky that we all get along, that they can tell me things without me spacing out (sometimes I do that in private). Tonight we were going out and J came into my room and said "Aww.. you look really nice mum." It's nice because there's no manipulation behind it, it's just them being the lovely people they are.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 10th, 2009

Joan Miro's paintings look familiar but I hadn't read his bio before. It's late now but I'll look again tomorrow.And incidentally I think the deaf can be helped to understand and appreciate music and the blind great paintings - you just have to do a bit of lateral thinking.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 10th, 2009

>>spacing out ...in private.
That's hilarious. :)

You have a nice family.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 10th, 2009

I just realised why Joan Miro's paintings look familiar. I went to a friend's house and there is a huge Joan Miro print at the top of the stairwell, a painting I see at least once a week. Seriously I think I'm losing it sometimes.
Did you see that the UK has just bought in legislation where the state can track all texts, emails etc and hold them for a year? I am just going to see if I can find more information about it.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 10th, 2009

Did you know you had a thread addressed to you? (since deleted) Hehehe

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 10th, 2009

>>a thread addressed to you
No, didn't know about it. Do you recall the gist of it? In what category? I'm outspoken. I say I'm assertive, others say I'm aggressive; the weepy crybabies call me 'cruel.' :) Do you recall who started it? Was it deleted or just closed to further posting?
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Stop saying (or thinking) you're losing it. You're passing through turbulent life changes. Ordinary daily life (the quotidian) is stressful enough. The same thing happened to me, even the same painter. I sent a Miró Xmas card to a psychologist friend a couple years ago. Next time I visited she showed me a Miró painting on her wall that I'd passed on every previous visit without noticing it. :( If you're losing it, then so am I, and I don't have half the stresses you do. :(
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Gotta go out and rake leaves. It gets dark VERY early since we left daylight saving time. I can hardly wait for the solstice, approx Dec. 21. After then I love knowing that the days are getting longer.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 11th, 2009

I think it was JeffM and just said "Mr Natural is a tosser.." or something similar. No-one answered it and it was deleted as nonsense.:)

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 12th, 2009

I had to look it up. British slang, which you would already know but I didn't. I wonder how he made a question out of it? "Is Mr.Natural a tosser?" :)
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Somebody else flagged it before I ever saw it. W well. There went JeffM's shot at immortality in the world of prose.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 12th, 2009

I found only one "JeffM" and he came and went in one day, Dec. 30, 2008.
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I didn't make it outside before it got dark. I guess I'll have to adjust my sleeping/ waking hours to mesh with the rest of the planet. What do I expect, going to bed at 4 to 6 am and getting up at noon or later.

Tomorrow (actually today, Thurs, 10 hours from now) is my platelet donation day. It cheers me up to be in the midst of the hustle & bustle of the clinic, with everybody treating me nice, giving me cookies and juice. :)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 12th, 2009

I should have missed yesterday as well. S and bf went out yesterday and came back shortly after very down at mouth cos he had just copped a $400 fine for no rego or WOF. He hadn't either because he's just recovered from surgery he didn't need and the trip was to get an "all-clear" from the doctor so he could get a benefit so he could pay for his rego and WOF. I then went to work and my car died there. Rang and rang home to see if someone could give me a lift - no reply. Finally found a staff member who could take me home, to find both our phones had been unplugged. Everyone had cooked for themselves. Dishes all over the bench. Wind had blown over a jar left outside,glass everywhere. No-one had remembered to put the rubbish out for collection. The air was littered with f words.
I'm calm now, thank you for listening.:)

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 12th, 2009

"Couldn't give a toss" is a common expression here but we're just unsophisticated farm yokels.
J has her school prizegiving today. I hope I can get there.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 12th, 2009

What are Rego and WOF?
Here we have a "magistrate's court," not as high up the judicial ladder as the county court with judge, etc. In the magistrate's court you have a minute or two to make your case. The magistrate can toss out the conviction altogether, or (at the least) reduce the fine. It's well worth looking into.
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You might be able to learn about it online, by looking up your local city or state or county government. Talk to friends who've taken a traffic violation to traffic court (whatever it's called there). If you call the courthouse or visit in person, you might find a brochure that explains your legal options.
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All the magistrate expects is a short, simple, honest explanation. I've always been able to get a fine reduction, and sometimes a dismissal of the violation. You're not allowed to take a lawyer. (That would necessitate a higher-level court.)
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>>The air was littered with f words.<<
Perfect! I mean the metaphor, not the event. :)
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You may have to assign weekly chores to all who live there and don't pay rent.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 12th, 2009

Rego is registration of your vehicle which has just substantially increased - for my motorbike the cost has trebled from the last time I registered it, a year ago. A car now is about $240, a scooter $300. WOF is warrant of fitness which is a fit for the road test, costs about $40 plus whatever needs fixing. The scooter doesn't need a WOF. sbf can write to the police here to see if they will waiver it, and if he doesn't pay it, it will go to district court.The costs are huge and the outcome pretty much a given, in his case. We also have a demerit point system here but I'm not sure if this sort of thing counts.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 12th, 2009

I will look it up online but I'm fairly sure the information there is vague. I'll look anyway.
>>You may have to assign weekly chores to all who live there and don't pay rent.
One of the problems is friends who hang around and quite often stay the night. I might have to toughen up on them, cos sometimes the amount of dishes 'n stuff is bloody ridiculous. They treat the place like a flat which is both nice (they're relaxed) and annoying (I'm not the friggin' maid).They quite often are kids who fall out with their parents. Sometimes I can see why!

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 12th, 2009

Fruit Salad Muffins

Ingredients

100g butter melted
1 cup milk
1 egg
2 cups flour
4 tsp baking powder
1/2 tsp salt
1/2 cup Chelsea caster sugar
1 x 225g can fruit salad in juice or syrup (drained)

Method

Mix butter, milk and egg together. Add the dry ingredients and just lightly combine, don’t overmix. Oil spray or grease muffin trays. Spoon mixture into trays to fill up to 1/3 full. Add 1 tablespoon of fruit salad on top of mixture, then cover fruit salad with remaining mixture. Bake for 10 - 15 minutes at 200oC. Cool a few minutes in trays then tip out onto a wire rack to cool further.

Makes 12

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 12th, 2009

I usually add cinnamon to recipes like this.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 12th, 2009

Thanks for the recipe! Looks tasty. Only 3 conversions necessary from the S.I. to our antiquated units. 100g butter is almost 1/4 lb; 225 g "fruit cocktail" (as it's called here) = 1/2 lb; 200 deg C ≈ 400 deg F.
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Our fruit cocktail is very bland, overcooked fruit lumps with too much sugar and too little flavor. But it'll be good in an upside-down cake.
http://images.asia.ru/img/alibaba/photo/51452058/Canned_Fruit_Cocktail.jpg
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In some families the rule is, if I invite a friend over (or even if he shows up on his own), it's my responsibility to clean up after him. My first effor will be to tell him to clean up after himself, but if he doesn't, then I have to do it before Mom gets home. There is no "leave it; mom will take care of it" bullshit. :)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 13th, 2009

Here is a 3-kg can of a popular brand. That's a lot of frumious croc tail.

http://graphics.samsclub.com/images/products/0002400015263_L4.jpg

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 13th, 2009

Your description of the fruit cocktail is a touch off-putting but mainly because we are just getting the first real fruit of summer and there is no comparison to tinned fruit. Strawberries are cheap now and I have some growing in the garden that are to die for; the peach and plums trees have small fruit which will be ready in a month or two and the grapes are starting to bunch. In the summer we have so much fruit and are given so much that we usually end up juicing some. Friends give me a large box of vegetables once a fortnight; there's peas, beans, cabbages and tomatoes planted outside.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 13th, 2009

I live in a small paradise, and I know it.
Yup, will definitely have to do something re dishes, there's another pile in the kitchen now and next week everyone has exams.
I agree with what you say but it's hard to reinforce when everyone's heading out in different directions and studying and so on. The only thing I've really found to work is refusing to give them a lift somewhere unless the dishes are done. They will do them then.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 13th, 2009

I have just bought a cookery book in a charity sale that was published in 1955. All the measurements are imperial.:)It's got a section at the back that has soap recipes, cosmetic recipes,cleaners and polishers,handy hints, medical hints and "what to do with a lemon". Hmm...

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 13th, 2009

>>Rose is getting fit
Is that getting fit or having a fit?? :)
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>>offputting
I was afraid my comment might appear ungrateful after you went to the trouble of finding and posting your recipe. The stuff sold there as "fruit salad" could be different from the stuff they sell here as "fruit cocktail." I don't know. And I totally agree that fresh, homegrown fruits and veggies are the best.
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When I was a kid I cooked from my mom's original Betty Crocker cookbook in the 3-ring binder. It must have been published in the 1940s. Before that all we had to eat were grubs, tree bark, wild berries, and carrion.
***
Wait, here it is:
http://www.amazon.com/Crockers-Picture-Cookbook-Crocker-Editors/dp/0028627717
That's the original Betty Crockers Picture Cookbook, published in 1950.
I still miss the plump, wiggling, white grubs that popped in your mouth when you chewed on them.
:)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 14th, 2009

No, your tinned fruit is the same as ours, I've even seen that brand here. It might say "fruit cocktail"on the label but NZers still call it (fresh or tinned) fruit salad. When I eat it, I can barely tell the difference between the fruit, except the "cherries" are sweeter. Even when I bottle my own fruit,I don't put much sugar in it, because I think it ruins the fresh taste.
Heh, my mother used to call me a "little grub" when I was pre-school. Normally that what when she came into the kitchen and my face was covered in jam, or crumbs from whatever she had been cooking.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 14th, 2009

I never realised there were picture cookbooks published then. I got all excited when I realised the site let me turn the pages over, but no..you can see the list of contents but no actual pictures.:(
You've just made me wonder who "inherited" my mum's cookbooks, she was quite an adventurous cook for an (English) farmers wife. He would always complain if she "mucked food about". The only thing she did badly was mashed potatoes. She seemed to lose interest halfway through mashing them - lumpy as a hay-filled mattress.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 14th, 2009

>>I bottle my own fruit...<<

Cans or wide-mouth glass jars, we call it "canning." My mom used to can fresh fruits and vegetables every summer for the winter. The peaches, pears, plums, etc, were delicious. I didn't know how well I had it.
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There's an old joke that illustrates a difference between the American and English vernacular. A touring Englishman stops his car alongside a large fruit orchard. He asks the farmer, "What will you do with all this fruit?"
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The farmer plucks the blade of grass from betwixt his teeth and replies, "Wal, I reckon we eat what we can, and can what we can't."
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The Englishman nods and goes on his way. Back in England he explains to his brother what American farmers do with their fruit: "They eat what they can, and the rest they put up in tins."
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If I read the Amazon link right, the 1950 Betty Crocker cook book was the first to include illustrations. When Amazon posts those PDF's illustrating a book they deliberately omit most of the content.
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When I left home I bought the current edition of the cookbook. I baked a cherry pie from scratch (except I didn't pick the cherries). I can't find the book now.
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That's funny about your mom and the mashed potatoes. Was there any apparent warmth between your parents? I need to compare your childhood to my own, which was cold and bleak. I'm still trying to create a perspective.
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One way to avoid a lumpy mattress is to sleep directly above a soft, plushy partner. I recommend it.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 14th, 2009

Mum gave me a indexed book you write your own recipes in when I left home. I still have it and the girls love flicking through the recipes because mum wrote little notes in the margins and so have I. I used her recipe for fish batter a couple of days ago but rubbed the fish with a mix of curry, chilli and cumin first. That's my update - I bet she would have liked it, but dad would have had a fit.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 15th, 2009

During my teenage years I always thought my parents were ill-matched and there was a lot of tension in the house. He treated her with disdain, told me he was jealous of the attention and love we gave her (the implication being we didn't give him the same) and controlled the money. She seemed a very easy-going person who laughed a lot, didn't take responsibility for decisions and didn't worry about anything much. He seemed to dictate and control our every action, his humour was biting, he worried about everything,was anxious about everything.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 15th, 2009

I always felt she would have been a different, much happier person without him. When he wasn't around, she was much more relaxed and carefree. But later on I came to think that they kind of balanced each other out. My early childhood was extremely happy but as the kids left home one by one, mum became progressively less happy, perhaps feeling her role in life had gone. They were happier when we all left home and she went to work in his business. He told me that she was the best worker he had ever had. I think up to that point he had thought of her as stupid and incompetent.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 15th, 2009

My sister has a video of them from one Christmas after we had all left home. They are laughing and joking and treating each other with real affection. To be honest, it took me a while to realise it was even them.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 15th, 2009

Soft and plushy..hmm..as it happens I have Sascha's old teddybear up in the cupboard. She got it when she was six and it's bigger than she was at the time. Guess that might do the trick..

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 15th, 2009

About how many recipes did she write in the book before she gave it to you? How will you decide which kid to give it to? If that's what you plan to do.
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I can't even imagine fish with curry, but I admire your creativity and I would definitely try it. I love cumin in bean soup. It's my most important spice (after salt) in navy bean soup, for example. Why would your dad have got involved at all? If somebody is willing to do the cooking, I sure as hell wouldn't hang around the kitchen criticizing the cook. That should be in the Bible, or at least in Aesop's Fables. :)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 16th, 2009

Mum wrote a recipe under each heading "fish", "desserts" etc. I guess to give me a headstart. Unfortunately the recipes I remember most - like her chicken soup - I think she just made up as she went, and never wrote down. I wouldn't mind your recipe for bean soup, that sounds nice. Our move to more vegetable dishes works wel if I cook but if I leave it to the kids, they stand in front of the bursting-full-of-vegetables fridge and complain "there's nothing in here." It's not that they don't like vegetable dishes, but ideas how to use them don't come readily to mind.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 16th, 2009

I made a chicken and garlic prawn stir fry for dinner tonight - yum if I say so myself.
Why did my father get involved? He couldn't help himself, he was a control freak. He believed mum was weak-willed, not as intelligent as him (her being part-Maori further reinforced this idea for him)and he was afraid of returning to the poverty and abandonment of his childhood. He worked two jobs all his life, gave up to a large extent his dreams of a different career and success in creative pursuits in otrder to maintain a certain standard of living for his family.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 16th, 2009

He came from a wealthy family and saw being in debt as a huge failure. That being said, raising nine children was probably not the way to go if you wanted to make money. So he gambled instead. He really was a mass of contradictions.
A lot of my own anxieties about relationships relate back to my parents' relationship. My reactions (on one hand lack of interest in making money, enjoying life) is my mothers; the other (taking responsibility for everything, an inpatience with things not moving fast enough, being controlling) are my fathers. I don't know how you solve legacies like that, and I have tried.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 16th, 2009

My mom also grew more and more unhappy as we kids began leaving home. I guess our leaving meant more time for her with my father.

She was pleased as we gradually left home. She had warned me when I was a young teen, "I hope you won't be one of those louts who hangs around and leeches off his parents after you graduate (high school), instead of getting a job and living on your own." Something like that. I hadn't even thought about it. From age 8 I worked on my uncle's farm every summer and bought my own school clothes.
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She was a master at hurting my feelings, until I learned to stop feeling. Starting at age 9 or 10 I became a mini-sociopath b/c of her. Maybe she was redirecting the anger she felt toward my father to me. I've long suspected that she hated all males, but she denies it. My dad had the experience necessary to ignore her jabs and gibes. His defense was to go to the tavern or get drunk at home, so he could better ignore her nagging.
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After learning from the model of their marriage I developed the habit of getting out of a relationship at the first feelings of annoyance or discomfort. There was no woman for whom my feelings of attraction outweighed the repulsion I felt when she reminded me of my mother. I'm not paid to put up with endless nagging.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 16th, 2009

>>chicken and garlic prawn stir fry
I love stir fry, esp. with chicken, & garlic. I can't even imagine how good it would be with prawns.
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>>control freak.
I've heard the term, but what does it really mean? Did he "micro-manage"? Try to manage every detail of every task? I'm suspicious of pop-psychology terms.
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>>weak-willed, not as intelligent as him (her being part-Maori...<<
That is inexcusable. It implies that he married her in order to have an inferior partner whom he could boss around. Any psychologist could have got to the core of his attitude in the first session. Did your mother also have negative qualities? I don't think you've mentioned any. Just wondering.
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Both of my parents were alcoholics, also two brothers. Difficult environment. It stultifies emotional growth. One brother died while drunk; the other quit, at an ultimatum from his wife--good for her. Mom quit drinking around her 91st b'day, at the insistence of her doctor. Amazing. She had been slurping Canadian Club a couple liters/week (86 or 100 proof). Now when I talk to her on the phone she sounds alert and rational, although she has lost some memory.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 16th, 2009

The more I see of the geneology of my family, whether my mother's or father's lineage, the more difficult it is to pinpoint where a certain type of behaviour begins. My father's parents were alcoholics and neglectful; my grandfather's parents had 17 children and he ran away to live "rough": perhaps they were the same? Each generation seems to look at their parents and say "I can do better than that" and succeeds in one area and fails in another. Each partner seems to have looked at one parent and said "I can do better than that" and again succeeded in denying/overcoming one characteristic but carried on another.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 16th, 2009

For example, my paternal grandfather came from a poverty-stricken background, made his way into the business world and improved his lot. He married a woman who was, according to my father, loving,musical, generous to a fault, but weak-willed, more interested in drinking and having a good time and neglectful of her children. Both were alcoholic and had violent tempers. So dad, in turn, scorns alcohol (life-long teetotaller), worked ridiculously long hours to provide for his family but was afraid to have a good time, to "let go." He, in turn, married my mother who he considered weak-willed, loved to laugh but didn't drink, was quite sumissive.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 16th, 2009

It's a meandering path but I see the connections. The same on my mother's side: her father was soft-spoken, chronically ill, left most of the financial and other decisions to his wife, who was head teacher of her own school and ran the farm. They never had any money but valued education. So mum married a man who also valued education, was strong-willed, financially ambitious, took control. It all figures.
If you are able to look back through your family I would expect you can see the same things.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 16th, 2009

I think your rationale for my father choosing who he did is correct. My mother's negative qualities were also good ones, depending how they struck you. Nothing bothered her much, she had simple needs and practical interests, she was honest and straightforward. Put that another way, and she took no responsibility or at least never insisted on having any; she was an unsophisticated, not very adventurous thinker, conservative, afraid of what other people thought, passive-aggressive.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 16th, 2009

>>After learning from the model of their marriage I developed the habit of getting out of a relationship at the first feelings of annoyance or discomfort. There was no woman for whom my feelings of attraction outweighed the repulsion I felt when she reminded me of my mother. I'm not paid to put up with endless nagging.
I relate to this exactly, although I didn't necessarily actually leave the relationship. I still find it unbelievable that despite being able to see this legacy quite clearly, we are so bound by it.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 16th, 2009

>>My mother's negative qualities were also good ones<<
Nothing you list about her seems like a negative quality, not to me, at least, and apparently not to you. I think we remember our parents according to how they affected us personally, emotionally, not how they might be evaluated by an objective third party (nor by ourselves, attempting to be objective). Sorry, that's a long and awkward sentence. This is a difficult and problematic area for me and I tend to avoid it.
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I haven't tried to evaluate any ancestors beyond my own parents. From childhood, all my energy has been focused on survival and trying to understand my place in the world. I haven't been successful at either.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 17th, 2009

.>> I think we remember our parents according to how they affected us personally, emotionally
That's it exactly. My mother's personality was a source of intense irritation and frustration for my father but not for me. The main problem for me was the conflict between them, and getting caught in the resulting crossfire. She was fun to be with, loving and generous, supportive and funny. She also wasn't stupid but you had to be persistent to bring that side out in her, her intellectual side was lazy. I think you're focussing your energy in the right place. Your lineage is important in the way it affects you, but it's today that matters more,IMO.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 17th, 2009

I've always had trouble answering questions about feelings, relationships, family. A therapist once asserted that relationships were the most important part of a person's life. She said relationships become the central issue as one gets older. It sorta freaked me out. She might as well have said, "You'll want to know how to factor polynomials and solve quadratic equations as you get older. That's what will be important."

"Huh? Er, OK. Can I go now?"
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Do you feel as if you're defending your mother?

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 17th, 2009

Yeah, I guess. My ex met her and thought she was stupid, but she really was just herself, she didn't try to project an image of intelligence. Dad (and He Who Must Not Be Named) both admired women who had careers, could discuss subjects in depth, made money by their own efforts. I guess I sort of nurse a hurt on her behalf that neither valued her as a person for the qualities she had. It made me angry too, that dad on one hand, admired women (and encouraged us) to get higher education, be independent etc but mocked and undermined her.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 17th, 2009

>>You'll want to know how to factor polynomials and solve quadratic equations as you get older
So now that you are older, have you learned how to do this or do you want me to give you a hand?

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 17th, 2009

You know, I've realised something else from our discussion above. I think I've never felt intelligent enough, pretty enough, clever enough, to myself be worthy of a man's admiration and if I get it, I feel it's fake and more to do with sexual attraction than personal qualities. I felt this about dad and my ex - that they talked about admiring intellectual stimulation, independence etc instead of what they really wanted - intellectual stimulation AND sexual attraction, a kind of woman they could adore rather than just love and who would adore/love them. Both were prone to idealising women they couldn't or didn't have.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 17th, 2009

>>thought she was stupid....<<
That's inexcusable. I've met the parents of my serious gf's / wives, whatever, and I didn't think any of them were stupid. I actually liked them all. I probably would have got along better with the mothers better than with the daughters.
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Remember Cyndi Lauper's song, "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun"? Actually, the girls (late teens and 20s) are serious and just wanna have a guy who meets their requirements. (That's quite fair, but it's far from "fun"). Older women just wanna have fun.
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I already have to take it back. I've met a lot of younger women who just wanna have fun. I don't know WHAT women want. :( <waahh>

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 17th, 2009

>>do you want me to give you a hand?<<

Do you have any lotion? I mean, are you good at math? I'm also attracted to educated women, but more important to me are native intelligence + a lusty earthy quality + self-confidence, short of over-confidence or arrogance.

<warning> I'm getting sloppy with bourbon and eggnog.
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>>I've realised something....<<
That's a very personal self-disclosure in that paragraph. Are you drinking, too? :) Can you expand on that paragraph?
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You haven't mentioned self-confidence yet. Do you feel you lack it?

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 17th, 2009

Yes. I am more self-confident - a lot more - when I have to rely on myself. I do not know what it is about being in a relationship, but whereas this gives a lot of other women confidence, being in a relationship seems to sap mine.
I felt both men had a hypocritical attitude to women: they SAID they liked women who were smart, funny, natural etc, they undermined rather than supported the women they were with, and idealised women who MIGHT have been all of those things but were distant, so they (D and ex) didn't have to deal with the day-to-day stuff, the money problems, the kids, the hassles.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 18th, 2009

My feeling is they would have been happy with someone who didn't argue the point, didn't have any problems,made enough money so they didn't have to,was clever enough to give them status, was just pretty and plastic and did what she was told.They wanted a women who made them look and feel good and didn't rock their boat.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 18th, 2009

Pass the bourbon. You can have the eggnog.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 18th, 2009

I've said that the ideal marriage would be a man and woman living on opposite sides of town, in separate houses.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 18th, 2009

BTW, your description of the Maori woman who threw her husband out should go into your book, too. Great description of the anger and indignation.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 18th, 2009

>>I've said that the ideal marriage would be a man and woman living on opposite sides of town, in separate houses.
Or opposite sides of the planet.:)
I'd have to careful re my descriptions of the woman in question. Her brother's a gang member, something she uses as a threat to all and sundry.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 18th, 2009

Hmm, we'd better drop the Maori woman incident.
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I'm wondering if I should get an early start driving, to beat the morning go-to-work traffic. Then I could leave before dark for easier driving back. Hmmm.
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Do you ever miss your parents? Sometimes I miss my dad. He wasn't a loving father, but after my mom left and he quit drinking, he was calm and reflective. To the end he was alert, up with current events. He died at 85. After years of boozing his heart gave out.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 19th, 2009

I know what you mean about early-morning traffic. I have been driving the older two into college for their end of year exams and having them panic "I'm gonna be late!" as we crawl along in the pre-Christmas traffic is not good for setting a calm,serene atmosphere. I've found the only thing is to start out early and then stuff them with snack food bought along the way - they're too busy munching to stress. S has her law exam today, the one she really wants to excel in, so she was head down into her laptop the whole way.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 19th, 2009

I miss my mum a lot when it's emotional stuff, she was very calm and sensible. I miss dad when the kids do well, especially in a creative field cos I know he would have been proud of them. He would have been especially chuffed to know S is doing well in law, he told me once he would have liked to have been a lawyer and he studied criminal cases all his life and wrote articles about them as a personal interest.
What was your dad reflective about? His own life?

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 19th, 2009

>>chuffed
Most of the def's I've found for chuff are negative. You're using it in a positive sense. Is it slang?
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I don't know what he reflected about. He just sat quietly, worked crossword puzzles, watched sports, and reflected. :) He didn't talk much. He hated orating, pontificating, even offering his opinion on anything. It was nearly impossible for me to drag an answer out of him when it involved an opinion.
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One of his earliest jobs was "Chief Egg Inspector" at a state co-op. Local farmers brought in eggs and a few dozen women "candled" them; shined a bright light through them and looked for blood spots, embryos, double-yolks, anything the consumer might find distasteful. That's where he met my mom.
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He was a dapper Dan in his younger years, but in his retirement he sat in his easy chair and watched sports on his big TV. The TV seemed to be the only luxury he allowed himself. He was frugal but he didn't nag others to be frugal. I think he bought all of his clothes at garage sales. I have a calculator he got at a garage sale. He never became attached to material goods. After his death I looked through his house for some keepsakes, but I couldn't find anything that had mattered to him. It was frustrating.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 20th, 2009

Chuffed to me means "pleased as punch". My mother used a lot of words incorrectly (properly to annoy Dad who was a stickler for correct usage), so I probably inherited it from her. My feeling though is it's English as in the cockney "dead chuffed". Would look it up if I had any energy left..but meh.
Your father was the exact opposite of mine, who often shut himself away to write, but otherwise would to anyone about anything and loved to argue the point, especially law and politics. I knew his opinion on virtually everything, sometimes to the point of suffocation.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 20th, 2009

My mother. otoh, was similar to your dad, but was pretty social among people she was comfortable with. I can't quite imagine how your dad thought. I would explode if I couldn't express my opinion. Our value in the family was largely judged by who could out-argue everyone else. It was one reason my father stayed top dog even as an old man. Even when he was blind, deaf and physically disabled, his wits stayed razor sharp.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 20th, 2009

What do you think attracted your parents to each other?
Your final paragraph about your father is much closer to mine, who might be that they belonged to the same era. The things that mattered to my dad were things that simply gave him pleasure - his classical records, books of poetry, a couple of nice paintings and family photos. Neither of my parents owned anything of inherent value and not many keepsakes either. They didn't consider them important.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 20th, 2009

My best "keepsakes" are memories - the days we spent at the beach, picking wild mushrooms, dad writing a song for me, them playing the piano, being divided into soccer teams for matches on the front lawn, climbing onto the roof and throwing fruit at the neighbour's kids and being yelled to come down by mum...there's hundreds of them.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 20th, 2009

It has two opposite meanings:
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chuffed 1
–adjective British Informal.
delighted; pleased; satisfied.
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chuffed 2
–adjective British Informal.
annoyed; displeased; disgruntled.
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My dad was social around most people. He became so fed up with my mom he became sullen and anesthetized--although I never saw him drink except social sipping. Around home (before he quit), he had bottles squirreled away here and there. I once saw him in delirium tremens. It scared me. I thought he was dying. Turned out that it was not his first time, but my family kept scandalous behavior hushed. My mom used to lower her voice in conversation with other adults and whisper "She's PG," to avoid saying "pregnant." Talk about Victorian/ Puritanical/ Irish Catholic. My sibs and I were sheltered from most of life's organic realities. So when we left home, we had to try everything for ourselves. Bad way to learn some things.
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I didn't mean my dad was UNABLE to express opinions. He just wasn't inclined to. When I was about to embark on a futile (or risky) endeavor he would explain how it would likely end. I would ponder his words and reason myself out of it. Most of my plans were harebrained anyway. I didn't develop functional powers of reasoning until much later, and I'm still a few pints short of a keg. I don't know how many things I've done that prompted others to gasp, "What were you THINKING!?

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 21st, 2009

Those memories you list will be good in your book. Who took care of your parents in their final years? My dad took care of himself until he died at 85. My mom is 91 and she has several female assistants who come around on schedules to cook & clean, make sure she takes her pills, and do whatever she can't do for herself. I've met a few of them and they're skilled, eager to please, and friendly.
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I don't know what attracted my parents to each other. I won't ask, b/c anything that reminds her of my dad triggers an angry harangue. After she left he rarely mentioned her. He quit drinking and became calm and relaxed. She stayed angry.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 21st, 2009

My parents stayed in the family home until they died (in fact both died at home, within a few months of each other, and both of cancer). Unbelievably in their later years, and despite dad's disabilities and mum's dementia, they looked after each other and my sister, who is a bit slow mentally. There was a lot of tension between them and her, I think she had way too much responsibility for what she was able to deal with.
What age were your parents when they split up? Do you look more like your mother or your father?

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 21st, 2009

Amazing story about your parents & sister. I think life is like that, full of apparently impossible situations. None of them individually could have handled it but the three of them pooled their skills and somehow survived. I have a feeling that's an optimistic evaluation.
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I've been rattled and befuddled for a few days. I'll have to try this later this later, this evening, I hope. I'm going now to return the new phone I bought and don't like.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 22nd, 2009

It wasn't a good situation but it was largely of my father's choosing. My mother would have preferred to be with her kids and my sister pretty much anywhere else.
What's wrong with the new phone? S and Sbf went to a charity art exhibition the other day and bought a raffle ticket for a cordless phone, just as a way of donating to the cause. Someone then asked Sbf if he'd mind drawing the winning ticket from a bag, which he did - and drew S's name! Their faces were red (but smiling) when she accepted the prize.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 22nd, 2009

Good news on winning the phone!
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It's not that the new phone (Sony Ericsson Equinox) was defective. I've heard that it's top-rated by most users. There were several design features that I didn't like. It has too much built-in automation and not enough user programmability.
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Several times when I received a call I picked it up, opened it (flip-phone), and pressed the button for Speaker. A warming popped up: "Speaker phone is not available." Huh? Meanwhile, the caller is shouting, "Hello? Hello?" and I can't make the damned phone work. And when it does work, the sound is small and tinny compared to my old Nokia. They had to make everything smaller in order to please buyers who want a pop-fashion, ultra-compact, teeny tiny phone they can hide in their shirt pockets.
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It takes two hands to open it and answer a call. My old Nokia has a push-button that snaps it open, and it's easy to close using one hand.
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The Navigation Key allows me to assign shortcuts to the left and right positions but not to the up and down positions. My old, obsolete Nokia lets me assign shortcuts to all four positions.
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The function keys are tiny and so close together I hit two or three at a time. (Disclaimer: same problem with the Nokia, but the keys are lighted (red, blue, green) which makes it much easier to find the key I want, even in dim light.)
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The volume key is a tiny rocker switch that is so nearly flush with the case I had trouble every time I tried to raise the volume. Even pressing it directly didn't always work. ALL the function and navigation keys are nearly flush, making it hard for my big fingers to press them.
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Remember the old apothegm, "form follows function"? Marketing weasels have turned it around. Now they get together in a smoke-free room with all-natural raw veggie snacks and they decide just how cute it should LOOK. They take their drawings to engineering and tell them the functions they want and "make it cute, just like our drawings." (So I imagine) If I were an engineer I would refuse to design consumer products.
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Anyway, those are some of my annoyances. I actually compiled a list, printed it, and presented it with the phone when I returned it. The guy actually stood there and listened and responded to each item. :) I was so impressed that I wrote a flattering comment praising him, and dropped it into the members' suggestion/complaint box.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 23rd, 2009

The bad: The Sony Ericsson Equinox TM717's external display and controls aren't easy to use. We continue to push Sony Ericsson to abandon proprietary ports and memory cards. Speakerphone quality is average.

The bottom line: The Sony Ericsson Equinox TM717 has potential, but its multimedia features are undermined by design missteps and a subpar speakerphone.

The review I read seems to echo what you say. Good that you can find a salesman who listened and that you rewarded his good service. Consumer power is something most people don't utilise or even recognise. So did you get your money refunded or buy another model?

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 23rd, 2009

Costco always refunds. They never do exchanges. They give you a choice, cash or credit to the card you used to buy the item.
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Right now I don't know what phone would suit me best, so I'll keep the trusty old Nokia 6133 until I find something better. Thanks for that review excerpt. If you have a link I'd like to print the review and give it to the guy who worked with me at Costco. He tried very hard to convince me to keep the Equinox. I actually liked the guy. He was very knowledgeable, compared to most other store clerks, and intelligent. He did his job well. :)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 23rd, 2009

http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/sony-ericsson-equinox-tm717/4505-6454_7-33809299.html
There ya go. I just typed in the name of the phone and that's the first one that came up.
We're having fun here at the moment. Got the car fixed BUT..now the fridge isn't going. I won't have a hair left in my head if I pull any more out. Already the temperatures are heading toward the 30's and the one thing we cannot do without...unbelievable. I will try to get it fixed cos the cost of a new one is beyond me. At this rate I might as well go live in a tent.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 23rd, 2009

Kids' exams are almost finished. Mostly they seem quite pleased (Che thinks he has failed one paper.)

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 23rd, 2009

A common problem with a refrigerator is dust clogging the radiator coils. The heat is removed from the inside, by the compressor, and transferred to the coils on the outside, where it is radiated into the air. That's why you feel warm air coming out when the fridge is running.
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The coils are either on the back or bottom of the fridge. If they're on the back, all you have to do is slide the fridge outward until you can get in there and vacuum them clean. This takes 12 big men and one little girl. No, it's not that bad.
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If the coils are under it, I'm not sure the best way to do it. You never want to lay a refrig on its side, even when turned off. But you can safely tip it back a long way, leaning it against something. I need to learn more about this, too.
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The next common malfunction is a worn-out compressor. Usually they have a long warranty, and they last many years. A repairman can tell you if you need a new compressor. Be wary that he's not just trying to sell you a new compressor. I believe there are some tests he can make, such as the refrigerant level. For me, refrigerators are supernatural and we must pray to them to win their love. :)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 24th, 2009

>> This takes 12 big men and one little girl. No, it's not that bad.
The 12 big men were playing video games so the little girl vacuumed the coils. Marginal difference (I think) but still glass bottles and the glass shelves are not as cold as I would expect them to be. Just to double-check that the heat wasn't driving me insane I went over to a friend's place and touched her glass shelves (you have to be good friends - heh)and by contrast my fridge felt like it was turned off. It's about six years old and I'm not ready for it to conk out yet so I've rung a technician who's coming around tomorrow. The company charges $70 just for him to turn up. I will watch him like a hawk and/or get the girls to droop themselves around the kitchen and smile sweetly.:)

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 24th, 2009

>>get the girls to droop themselves around the kitchen and smile sweetly.<<

There's a lesson in there for me, and if only I understood it I might improve my defense strategies against smiling females. Or maybe not.
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Six years old is practically new. I infer from your comments that you can still hear the compressor running, which is a positive sign. Could here be an item inside blocking a vent? Check the freezer compartment. Make sure you feel air flow when the compressor is running.
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Are the controls set properly? It probably has separate controls in the freezer compartment and the main compartment. You may still have the manual that came with it.
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A better way to compare your fridge and your friend's is to use a thermometer. I think you'd need to leave it inside 15 minutes or more to reach the final temp. Any outdoor thermometer should work. The displayed values may not be accurate, but the relative (difference) values from one refrig to the other will still be valid.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 24th, 2009

Have checked the vent and changed the setting but that means it's not where it normally is, which still aint right. Not sure what you mean about the air flow. Outside the fridge?

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 25th, 2009

Can't find the manual although I know I've got it somewhere..safe...:(

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 25th, 2009

I was thinking of air flow inside the fridge, the vents where the cold air is blown in to cool the grits. In mine, the cold air is blown into the freezer compartment through a vent in the back.
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A knob down below in the main compartment adjusts how much of the cold air from above is allowed to descend into the main compartment (where you don't want it to freeze).
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There is also air flow outside, around the coils. I'm not especially savvy about refrigeration. Chances are, based on what you've disclosed so far, your fridge has a compressor problem. Maybe it needs refrigerant, which I'd think should be cheap. I'll try to find something online. Does your refrig have a freezer compartment on top and main compartment below?
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I got invited to Thanksgiving dinner with friends across town. I still have turkey left over from my mom's dinner last Thursday. I usually hide out on holidays, but they find me. I need to dig a deeper cave and put thicker doors on it.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 25th, 2009

I believe the airflow around the coils is convection (warm air rises). I don't believe a fan is used on the coils but I'm not sure. The coils radiate the heat that has been extracted from inside the frige.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 25th, 2009

The fridge is on the top and the freezer underneath. A salesman told me at the time I bought it that a fridge on its own lasts longer (can't remember why).
Please don't dig a deeper cave. It's hard enough to reach you as it is.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 25th, 2009

Some things I would like to know before the technician comes out: What sorts of repairs/adjustments will he be able to do in this first visit? And will he come prepared to do those things, so you won't need to make another app't for an additional visit, thus adding to your cost?
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Is the tech you called from the same place where you bought the refrig? How long is the warranty on the compressor? It's worth checking.
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It occurred to me that you could call one of their competitors and ask some general questions, like my first, above: what should you reasonably expect a tech to come prepared to do on the first visit? I don't know if I'm expressing this very well. I've learned to be skeptical, and I'd be intensely annoyed if he examined it and then said, "The framistan is burned out. You'll need to make another appointment after I order one."
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Is it hard to reach me? I think I mentioned that I have to do a lot of wound-licking during and after the holidays.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 25th, 2009

Oh buggar. The tech has been and gone. He only stayed 15 mins but said the seal around the freezer needs replacing and he'll have to come back to replace it. The problem is the freezer is frozen up, blocking the air flow - if I had really thought about it, I could have come to this conclusion myself from what you'd said. So I need to defrost the fridge (which he said means it will go better) but wil have to defrost it again when he replaces the seal - in another appointment. He did say it could be a faulty fan as well but normally the settings inside the fridge flash if that is the case.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 25th, 2009

I do like this company, I've dealt with them before. I used to go to a business in my village but they charged a huge amount without a successful outcome (and threatened me) so I swore I'd never use them again.
I just meant (hard to reach you) that sometimes you only talk to me once a day or less. I talk to my cat more often than that. (although he knows stuff-all about fridges:)

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 25th, 2009

I am joking btw. I am currently defrosting the fridge/freezer and munching my way through a box of iceblocks, samosas and chicken patties. I..feel..sick...

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 26th, 2009

PS this has just been on the news here:

Rescuers are chipping away with air-powered tools in a narrow tunnel Wednesday to free a man trapped 'upside-down', with his head below his feet in a popular Utah cave in the United States.

John Jones, 26, became stuck about 215 metre into the narrow cave, known as Nutty Putty, at about 9pm Tuesday (NZT 5pm Wednesday) after entering the cave with a group of around 11 people.

He is about 45 metres below ground says Utah County sheriff's Sergeant Spencer Cannon.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 26th, 2009

>>hard to reach
I get this way every holiday season. I'm invited for dinner with friends across town just a few hours from now (Thursday) but I'd rather stay home and sleep. I just emailed my friend and told him please don't be offended but I need to leave before dark. That means before 4:00 pm at this time of year. He and his fiancee are nice to invite me every year (and many times in-between), even when they know I prefer to hole-up in my hermitage until the crocuses come out in the spring. I've never been accepted so affectionately as I have by his gf. She's short and plump with an enormous pair of flotation devices that make me whimper and beg for warm milk. (j/k) At first I worried that she wanted something more physical, like the old song, "Love is a long and tender thing," but no.
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The guy who got stuck in the cave sounds like a moron. All they have to do is leave him there for a few days with no food and he'll get out on his own. Or strip his clothes off, butter him up, tie a rope to one leg, and drag him out.
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Are you going to get billed for two visits? I wonder if you can make a case that if the tech had carried the sealing tape in his van he could have applied it in another 15 minutes of the first visit, still leaving 1/2 hour to stop for a beer on the way back to the office. I doubt that every model freezer and refrig requires a totally different kind of tape.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 26th, 2009

He probably did carry the tape but the fridge has to be defrosted anyway, so it's reasonably legit for him to come back. Typical of the kids, when there is food I am begging them to eat - as opposed to not eat which would be the norm - they turn their collective noses up at it and head for the beach. There are currently nine juice iceblocks melting in the non-working freezer. I should give them to someone but it's only 6.30am. Knocking on someone's door in the early hours with melting iceblocks in your hand may cause them to wipe me off their Christmas card list,although on second thoughts....

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 26th, 2009

I wonder why, if the girl in question is your friend's gf, you would think she had ulterior motives for kindness? Why would she? Are you Brad Pitt? (If you ARE Brad Pitt, my flight no.is..)Speaking of which, there was a poster in the auction the other day of an ad for Pepsi or something similar featuring a young BP. Guess every actor's done commercials at some stage in his career. No, I didn't bid for it. I want the real McCoy or nothing.:)
It is strange hearing you say that it's getting dark at 4pm. It does that here in winter but right now we have the opposite problem - you can wake up in the middle of the night and it's light enough to walk around.
I think the problem for the guy in the cave is he's upside down. I just liked the name of the cave - Nutty Putty.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 26th, 2009

[Edited]

>>they turn their collective noses up at it and head for the beach.
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I'm picturing that and still smiling. (That was the crackling sound you may have heard.) I dont know which is funnier, your kids' antics or your responses. Your household is not ordinary. You allow them a lot of independence. ... OTOH, I guess that's normal and necessary at 18+. Time flies from puberty to leaving home. (Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.)
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You really have a knack for creating an image without the usual prosaic description. If I could sketch or paint I could show you the images that pop into my head when you describe something they've done. Ignoring genders for a moment, it reminds me (but only a little) of Unca Donald (you) vs. Huey, Louie, and Dewey (them).

http://d23.disney.go.com/articles/060909_NF_FS_DonaldHDL.html
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My friend's gf: I've been in enough sexually ambivalent escapades that when I detect any uncertainty I tend to consciously analyze what's happening so I can respond appropriately. Such analysis does not occur spontaneously for me.
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No, not Brad Pitt. I'm pleased that you have healthy physical desires and you can imagine that. :) If he were available, and living in a house nearby, would you queue up with the other women outside his door? I would hope so. Every five minutes the next woman outside the door knocks hard and shouts, "Time's up! Next!" :)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 26th, 2009

>>In fact, the more human and multi-dimensional Huey, Dewey, and Louie got, the more interesting their co-stars became by extension. Unca Donald, though still not a perfect parent, was forced to acknowledge the kids' knack for rescuing him from his foibles. And at other times, when danger has threatened the boys themselves, Donald has managed to pull off some rescues, too — even when bravery ran contrary to his nature.>>
Sounds like me!

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 26th, 2009

>>Every five minutes the next woman outside the door knocks hard and shouts, "Time's up! Next!" :)
Oh to hell with that..I'd drag the bitch out!

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 26th, 2009

The kids and attached friends have just arrived home, as red as lobsters.They've bought a dingy (no oars, they paddle with their hands, possibly in circles) and they took it down to a lagoon beside the sea. Yesterday they took it to a waterhole and now they have plans to take it down the river beside us (not so keen on that, it's too polluted). Huck Finn eat your heart out? I bet you had a lot of adventures like this when you were a kid. Sadly I didn't.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 26th, 2009

>>Sounds like me<<
Well, that's where I was going with the image, but not quite that far, Unca Donald. :)
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>>getting fat
That's what popped into my mind every time I saw "getting fit" in your sig, but you could be anorexic for all I know. :)
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I'm impressed that the kids got a boat. Which kids are in on the adventures? Can they all swim? How do they move it from one place to another? Carry it upside-down, like a canoe? Maybe they can find two or three canoe paddles, especially if there's any chance of being swept out to sea. (Three, b/c it's easy to drop one overboard and hard to retrieve it if all you have is one paddle.)
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I grew up on a medium-sized lake and I always had a boat, usually with an outboard motor. But I got plenty of practice paddling, rowing, falling overboard, sinking the boat, near-drowning, and rescuing the occasional kid who fell off the dock. Everything you describe is familiar, including paddling with the hands. I know every possible way to flip a boat over, out in the middle of the lake in a storm. :(
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Your kids are not only getting good exercise but also learning a new set of motor skills and survival skills. I'm impressed. Acquiring outdoorsy skills are less common nowadays. They'll be the better for it.
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I share your concern about the pollution in the river. Also about getting out into deep water, with the dangers of wind and waves, and beasties with big teeth.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 27th, 2009

Huey, Duey, and Luey all went plus Luey's bf and bff. Sometimes it's also Luey's bfff. There's a lot of them and they all seem to live here by the way they casually walk in and dive into the fridge for a snack. One of them has started to bring over food and put it in the freezer. I had to explain to him the other day that actually WE put stuff in the freezer and there wasn't any room left.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 27th, 2009

>> but you could be anorexic for all I know. :)
You just keep thinking that my friend:)
Oops have to go to work. Will finish this later.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 27th, 2009

>>Huey, Duey, and Luey

LOUIE! Jeez louise. :)
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I've never heard of teenage girls abandoning the comforts of home (with makeup, flush toilets, and TV) for oudoor adventures. Very good. There's a wide span from high heels and hairdos to getting wet and muddy, and paddling an old boat with your bare hands. Am I getting the right picture? I've never known what makes girls tick*, so I love your anecdotes.
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*tick: I think they have time bombs inside. Tick- tick- tick.... Or am I hearing the biological clocks? Hmm.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 27th, 2009

>>*tick: I think they have time bombs inside.
Try telling them no, they can't. (Doesn't matter what the question was). End result: Boom! I'm pretty deaf to the sounds of war though. Everything I screamed at my mother as a teenager she used to respond to with a kindly "yes dear." I do the same. It drives teenagers crazy.
Luey is the Indonesian version.:)
Your picture is accurate. They were adventurous kids but then turned into couch/video potatoes. It's partly that summer's here and partly that the exams are almost over that gets them out into the wide blue yonder. I did suggest life jackets but they didn't buy it but none of them are really strong swimmers. The dingy is a blow-up one and they probably inflate and deflate it. S said there was an AWFUL lot of walking involved.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 27th, 2009

The girls both love all the girly stuff and spend hours talking about it and buying the latest clothes etc., but also will drop it in a moment to do something fun and are quite spontaneous. They both have a lot of long-time guy friends and the bfs don't seem to feel any jealousy about it. I also notice they give the bfs (and receive back) a lot of freedom of movement, both are just as likely to go out with girlfriends as bfs.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 27th, 2009

>>...I'd drag the bitch out!<<
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Good for you. I respect lusty women with healthy libidos. Or is it healthy women with lusty libidos? I guess it works both ways. I'll bet Brad Pitt never runs out of ,um, applicants for his favors. Same with Angelina Jolie, or Lindsay Lohan. My personal favorite is Natalie Portman. The lines outside their doors are much too long, and I suspect most of them employ large bodyguards.
http://www.javatuning.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/bodyguard.jpg

But I digress.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 27th, 2009

>>Same with Angelina Jolie, or Lindsay Lohan.
Both are bi-sexual so there are probably two lines.
Your bodyguard pic looks like my first partner, minus the gun. He moonlighted as a bouncer and no-one ever argued the point with him because he looked like he'd smack them against a wall. Truth was, he was a really gentle soul. It must be difficult choosing a partner when there is so much choice.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 27th, 2009

Ohhh, an INFLATABLE craft. I have experience with them, too. The safest have several separate air compartments; if one or two leak, you still have something to help hold your head above water. Maybe you should get them a couple of these for xmas:

http://www.era-marketing.com/images/products/Popular/big/WA-021.jpg

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 27th, 2009

>>bi-sexual
If I can't help, I'll watch. Or man the video camera, for sentimental memories and nostalgia purposes, of course.
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Did you get any pics when they came back all sunburned? Not that I recommend getting sunburned. It's dangerous. My back peeled a dozen times every summer, and I didn't know how risky it was. I did learn how painfujl it wa.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 27th, 2009

Looks like I spiked the eggnog with too much bourbon last night. Couldn't even finish the last sente
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>>my first partner... moonlighted as a bouncer.

Criminy, "bouncer" was part of my search criteria for that image. I sense a disconnect. "He worked as a bouncer, but he was a gentle soul"?
Riiiiight. I test drain cleaners on lab animals but I LOVE puppies. :)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 28th, 2009

>> last sente
You Americans really got to learn to spell.
>>He worked as a bouncer, but he was a gentle soul"?
His full-time job was as a draughtsman, the bouncer work was just extra cash and he was asked to do it because of his size. His friends used to tease him a lot and I never saw him lose his cool. He was known for his big smile and generous nature. He was also a heavy drinker which is why we parted ways but he didn't get aggressive when he was drunk either.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 28th, 2009

So other than the booze he was ideal? Nevermind; I don't need to know. :)
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I would guess that nobody is an ideal spouse. That provides an excuse to dump them all. :)
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I seem to specialize in finding faults that make separation inevitable.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 29th, 2009

I never said, or even suggested, that he was ideal. Nor have I ever looked for a "perfect" person - just someone who was suited to me and my quirks. If you feel you always look for faults as an excuse to leave someone, there are issues from your past you haven't dealt with. But I figure you know that. And I know that too.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 29th, 2009

I didn't leave because of the drinking; I left because he was perfectly happy living in a provincial town, partying at the weekends and never changing. I wanted to travel, and see what else the world had to offer, and I did.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 29th, 2009

Whoa, you seem to have misunderstood a couple of things. I was speaking for myself, and the nebulous "some people." I wasn't accusing you of looking for someone "perfect" or "ideal," but on re-reading my comment I can see how you got that. I wasn't clear.
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>>issues from your past...<<
Of course. That's my point. I've told you about them.
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>>He was perfectly happy living in a provincial town<<
That's a turn-off for me, too. I use words from this list to describe my first wife and some other women I used to know.
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/provincial
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You might clarify this:
>>I didn't leave because of the drinking<<
vs:
>>He was also a heavy drinker which is why we parted ways<<

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 29th, 2009

Damn. Sprung.
OK I did contradict myself there, I guess because I was a bit ambivalent about it. My grandparents were alcoholics and I was brought up with "fire and brimstone" lectures about the evils of drink; oddly enough though, mum and dad loved the guy and never commented on it. So it was a cosy kind of scene and he was a very kind, very caring person as well, always fixing something for someone or helping someone out. What really happened was I started to drink heavily also and then one day I woke up and realised I didn't want that kind of lifestyle.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 29th, 2009

I started to look at travelling and went for two holidays in Australia by myself. I was bored with my job, bored with the all-weekend partying and decided to travel to Europe. He didn't want to go but originally I was going to come back in six months. Six months became three years and I still came back to him but by then I realised I wanted something else and left for Auckland and then Australia. He used to ring me when he was drunk for about the next 10 years. (not kidding).

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 29th, 2009

The last time I saw him was about six years ago at my aunt's funeral. (He was a friend of my cousin's). He seemed kind of bitter, not toward me particularly, but as a person.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 29th, 2009

On another note, in a thread about underwear you all seemed to be talking about underpants or panties. Here, underwear would be anything worn under clothing, bras, panties, camisoles, petticoats, etc. Is that the meaning for you?

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 29th, 2009

[editing]

>>one day I woke up....
Seems reasonable to me.
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>>Six months became three years
This was before the kids?
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>>underwear..., underpants or panties
We used to say "bra and panties" until some women objected. I forget just what they said, maybe something about sexualizing clothing, but it got my attention. Here's an example. In a mixed group, men can refer to their underwear and it's totally neutral. But if someone says "bra and panties" it's sexually charged and it immediately singles out any females present. So women now prefer "underwear," the same neutral term men use. And it does mean the layer c
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But when I posted something about your underwear floating downstream, that was a euphemism for bra and panties. I was surprised when you replied, unfazed, and continued the tale. I thought, "Watch it! This woman is deeper than you know." That sounds funny, but any woman who can talk neutrally and publicly about her undergarments and sexual interests gets my attention. :)

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 30th, 2009

Dammit! The edit window closed before I was finished. I'll have to start over. Ignore the above; it's a first draft that stretched out longer than I expected.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 30th, 2009

>>one day I woke up and realized....
Seems reasonable to me. Profound self-realizations and the subsequent life changes don't happen overnight.
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>>Six months became three years
This was before the kids?
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>>underwear..., underpants or panties
We used to say "bra and panties" until some women objected. I forget the argument, maybe something about sexualizing clothing, but it got my attention. Example. In a mixed group, men can refer to their underwear and it's sexually neutral. But when someone says "bra and panties" it's sexually charged and it segregates any females present. So women now prefer "underwear," the same neutral term men use. And it does mean the layer next to the skin.
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Long ago when I posted something about your underwear floating downstream it was a tease, a euphemism for bra and panties. I was surprised when you replied, unfazed, and played right along. I thought, "Watch it! This woman is deeper than you know." That sounds funny, but a woman who can talk neutrally about her personal undergarments (with the sexual implications) gets my attention. It signals that she can comfortably separate her affective (emotional) processes from her cognitive (intellectual) processes. That gets my attention.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 30th, 2009

You know, I've never thought of it like that, maybe because I grew up as one of six girls. To refer to "underwear" among women sounds stilted. With women I know well we'd change in front of each without embarrasement, I wouldn't think anything of it.
>>This was before the kids?
About 10 years before.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 30th, 2009

>>"underwear" among women sounds stilted.
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For me, it's the LEAST stilted. Underwear is neutral, gray, and sexless. It might include Daisy Mae's delicate "unmentionables" <blush> as well as an old geezer's worn-out longjohns hanging on the line, flapping in the breeze. For me, 'underwear' hints of something made of durable, functional flannel that you found in Sears' Bargain Basement.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 30th, 2009

Unmentionables..geez, haven't heard that for a while! It belongs in the file along with "that time of the month" and "in the family way". My sisters used to use all those expressions when I was young so as not to defile my ears.
Just heard that my sister has had a book (a children's adventure) published. She said she'll send a complimentary copy. Guess I'll have to hurry up with mine!

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by Rose is getting sleepy on November 30th, 2009

>>Unmentionables

Glad you enjoyed it. :) I haven't heard those expressions in many years, either. But in context it seemed to fit. Good on your sister for her book. Did she do her own illustrating?

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on November 30th, 2009

Publishers here generally don't allow you to do your own illustrating. A friend of mine wrote a children's book which had a very simple text - about one line a page - and then illustrated the rest of the page. The publisher accepted the book and used one of their own illustrators to do the pictures. She was a bit peeved although pleased it got published at all. I haven't spoken to my sister yet though, the info just came through the family grapevine.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on December 1st, 2009

Weird. I've fantasized writing a children's book (my mind is still there), and I imagined a certain niece who might illustrate it. But I never heard of a publisher REQUIRING a different person to illustrate it. I can't imagine their reasoning. Maybe she could have used a pseudonym, like George Eliot. How would they have known?
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Let me know when you learn the name of the book. Maybe I'll be able to find it here. That would be cool. My favorite university book store has a huge selection of kids' books. I used to shop there when there were lots of kids in the extended family. I once found a tape of my daughter reading a story to one of the kids of the next generation. (She's also a soprano, with a couple of self-published CDs. I don't think they went anywhere.)
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So what are the kids up to? If I don't get a report every couple of days I miss the excitement. It must be good swimming and hiking weather down there by now.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on December 2nd, 2009

Ha! Hiking and swimming? Just stand outside! We are in the middle of a thunderstorm and heavy rain is forecast for the next two days. I was out walking with Jaz (she was wearing jandals/thongs)and the path was suddenly a small flowing river of water. As she ran to get out of the rain, her jandal came off and as she turned back to get it, it started floating off down the sloping path. By the time we got home we were soaking wet and doubled over with laughter. It was kind of nice really because with 96% humidity, it was really muggy and the rain left the air nice and cool.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on December 2nd, 2009

Despite NZers buying the most books per capita in the world (well they used to, anyway or close to), it's almost impossible to make a living from creative writing. I doubt it will get to the US although the Harry Potter series was rejected by a heap of publishers at first, so never say never...I think the rationale is that publishers have illustrators on contract and that's how they guarantee the quality plus keep the illustrators employed.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on December 2nd, 2009

Your daughter sounds talented. All my family can sing, except me. All can play a musical instrument, except me. I musta been adopted:( Can you sing?
Kids aren't up to much actually. Buzzing around with friends or lying on the couch. Che is working at the local fun park full-time. Jaz is in rehearsal for another play in an adjoining city. Going to see her perform next week. I rehearsed her lines with her - she's damn good and getting better. Sascha is planning what kitchen appliances she can spirit away to university without me noticing.:)

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by Rose is getting sleepy on December 2nd, 2009

I guessed that "jandal" meant sandal, but look what I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handle_the_Jandal
Nice story with you and Jas in the rain. It usually drizzles here instead of pouring, but now and then we get a real drencher. My garage and basement used to flood every winter. I finally found a couple of plumbers who 'moonlighted' (worked after their regular hours) and fixed the storm drain for me. Plumbing and carpentry are way outside of my skill set.
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I forget-- do you live in the country? Must be if you have a hiking trail that floods. Do you ever hike on the beach? Do you find odds & ends that float in on the tide? That's fun, except nowadays we find mostly junk, garbage, and debris.
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If the publishers have their own illustrators on contract they might as well hire their own ghost writers on contract as well. There must be a piece missing from this puzzle.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on December 2nd, 2009

Can I sing? Sure, if I'm being tortured. "Sing, punk, or I'll break another finger!" A few years after I adopted my cat, she was sound asleep one night and I was lying in my bed. I must have been in a good mood b/c I burst spontaneously into song. The cat came running, fur flying, from her undisclosed location in another room. She leaped onto the bed, ran up to my face, stuck her head into my mouth, and peered into the abyss.
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She recognized my death wails and suddenly realized that no one had showed her how to use the can opener. Actually I *had* showed her, but she wasn't paying attention. A problem is not a problem unless it's happening right now. Food in the bowl means there is no problem, so take a nap. However, if her bowl is empty AND she hears howls of anguish emanating from my room, that's a serious matter.

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by Mr_Natural Abstractor of the Quintessence on December 2nd, 2009

It's stopped raining now but I suspect it's just a brief respite. I'm pretty sure the rain gods are sitting up there, chuckling evilly, filling up buckets and waiting for some naive human rat like me to venture out in my summer best. The gutters on this house are holding on by their fingernails and you only have to hesitate at the front or back doors for a minute to get drenched to the bone.I have seriously considered leaving soap, towels and rubber ducks by the back door and "get back to nature". We are semi-rural; there's nothing out there by the river and trees.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on December 2nd, 2009

We also live next to a recreational and sporting park. There are now linking cycleways from ours to the next city travelling along beside the highways. That's what I want to try over the holidays. The government has plans to make it possible to cycle right around New Zealand through these special cycleways. Of course we're two (and more) islands so for part of this we go by boat or get very wet.
"Handle the Jandal" is so famous here I've never heard of it. Nor has anyone else here.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on December 2nd, 2009

The only thing you find on the beach is seaweed (great for the garden), driftwood and shells. There's no "treasure" to speak of, although some of the stones I've found are interesting. My mother used to pick up a "special" stone or shell from any beach she went to as a memento. I do that as well and spent my honeymoon travelling around the country picking up stones from the beaches we went to. Came in handy later. (Nah..I'm kidding).

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by Rose is getting sleepy on December 2nd, 2009

>>Can I sing? Sure, if I'm being tortured.
Most people who heard me consider THEY'RE being tortured. OK, all people. Even the cats and dog suddenly remember urgent appointments elsewhere when I start to warble. Pikers.
Your cat story is wonderful, made me laugh out loud. Oddly enough, I woke up this morning thinking "are women more like cats and men like dogs or vice versa?"Why I was wondering about such a daft thing at 6am is perhaps the bigger question.

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by Rose is getting sleepy on December 2nd, 2009

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Do you think you can cheat on someone if you really love them?

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Is it easy to cheat, can a person really love the person they're cheating on and still do it?

Am I one of the few people to never cheat on someone there seem that there are a ton of people on this site who has cheated and I would say that I can think of over 50 people I know that have cheated on someone

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