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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 24th, 2009
Help answer this question below.
by edndori on September 24th, 2009
Former LdS Bishop and Stake Mission President, Bob McCue asks us: "Was Joseph Smith, Jr. trustworthy?"
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 2nd, 2011
| 1 person likes this
Why did Joseph Smith need to publish HIS extra-Biblical Book of Moses when one already existed? Why didn't he just publish the existing one?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on December 22nd, 2009
| 1 person likes this
Joseph Smith "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead..." Meaning...?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on December 22nd, 2009
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MORMONS: How can one tell when Joseph Smith, Jr. was speaking as The Prophet and when as just a man?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 14th, 2011
| 2 people like this
AGREE? "As a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, I would bet my entire life savings that Joseph Smith had Narcissistic Personality Disorder."
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on January 30th, 2011
| 2 people like this
You're reading Did Joseph Smith use Psychedelic Substances to Facilitate Visionary Experiences? More to the point, did hallucinogens facilitate Joseph Smith's visions & those of early Mormon converts? The referenced link (below) says, "Yes!" Thoughts?
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Comments
>Nowhere does it make the claim that Joseph Smith and the early saints actually used them<
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Really? Did you actually READ the article? Let's see now . . .
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" According to LaMar Petersen in his 1975 book, Hearts Made Glad the answer is probably yes.27 Petersen noted a correlation in early Mormonism between the ingestion of sacramental wine and visionary experience. In the very first conference of the Church in June 1830 at Fayette, New York,
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Joseph Smith recorded
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… we partook together of the emblems of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ … many of our members … had the heavens opened to their view, [and beheld Jesus Christ].28
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Heavenly manifestations occurred in a March 18th 1833 sacrament meeting held in Kirtland Ohio under the direction of Joseph Smith.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 24th, 2009
Bro Joseph … promise[d] that the pure in heart that were present should see a heavenly vision … after which the bread and wine was distributed by Bro Joseph after which many of the brethren saw a heavenly vision of the savior and concourses of angels.29
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In the afternoon of March 27th 1833, Ebenezer Robinson reported that after the administration of the bread and wine
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Frederick G. Williams bore record that a holy angel of God came and sat between him and Joseph Smith, Senior.30
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A meeting in which visions were occasioned by the application of anointing oil, which can also be laced with entheogenic material31 occurred on January 21, 1836. Joseph Smith was anointed first and in turn he anointed several of the Brethren. Joseph reported that after the anointing,
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The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell… Joseph said that many of the brethren “saw glorious visions also.32
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 24th, 2009
On March 30, 1836 during the dedication week of the Kirtland temple the Millennial Star reported that nearly five hundred brethren gathered in expectation of a spiritual Pentecost.
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The bread and wine were then brought in… The Savior made His appearance to some, while angels ministered to others.33
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Charles L. Walker recorded that when the brethren had
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… partaken of the Lord's supper, namely a piece of bread as big as your double fist and half a pint of wine in the temple … the Holy Ghost descend upon the heads of those present like cloven tongues of fire.34
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Following consumption of sacramental bread and wine on the afternoon of April 3rd 1836, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery retired to the pulpit where a series of visions were opened to them including the appearance of Jesus Christ, Moses, Elias and Elijah.35
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Then in a meeting on May 1st 1836, Ebenezer Robinson36 remembered
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 24th, 2009
… when we partook of consecrated bread and wine … some testified of having the visions of heaven opened to their view.37
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Can untainted wine and pure anointing oil have occasioned heavenly visions or spiritual raptures of early Church converts? The answer is probably not. Alcohol related hallucinations only occur after years of abuse and abrupt withdrawal. Therefore visions associated with the ingestion of wine argue strongly for the surreptitious inclusion of an entheogen such as the visionary Datura plant.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 24th, 2009
28 http://www.saintswithouthalos.com/m/300609.phtml End of the quote: “beds … brother Newel Knight, who had to be placed on a bed, being unable to help himself ... all of a sudden … saw the heaven opened, and beheld the Lord Jesus Christ seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high… When their bodily strength was restored to these brethren, they … rehearsed the glorious things which they had seen and felt, whilst they were yet in the spirit”
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29 Kirtland High Council Minutes (December 1832–November 1837). P. 16-17. Selected Collections, 1:19 // New Mormon Studies CD-ROM. Original, Church Archives, MS 3432. Found at http://www.saintswithouthalos.com/m/330318.phtml#equal LDS History of the Church, Vol I. p. 283. See also at http://www.centerplace.org/history/ch/v1ch11.htm
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30 http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ERobinson.html
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31 Pendell, D. (2005). PharmakoGnosis: Plant Teachers and the Poison Path. San Francisco, California: Mercury House. P. 263
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 24th, 2009
32 JS, Journal, Jan. 21, 1836, in PJS, 2:157-58; CR Cowdery, “Sketch Book,” 419 (Jan 21, 1836Bushman, R. L. (2005). Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. New York: Alfred A. Knopf. P. 312,313 “”… .Edward Partridge wrote that “a number saw visions & others were blessed with the outpouring of the Holy Ghost. The vision of heaven was opened to these also, some of them saw the face of the Savior, and others were ministered unto by holy angels”.
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33 Millennial Star 15:726-728. See also Lamar Petersen, Hearts Made Glad, Salt Lake City Utah 1975, p. 124-125. See also http://restorationbookstore.org/prints/kirtlandtempleded.htm
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34 "Diary of Charles L. Walker," 1855-1902, excerpts typed, 1969, p.35. Cited http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changecontents.htm (pages 479 - 481)
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35 History of the Church 2:434-435. See also Notes and Comments, BYU Studies, vol. 15 (1974-1975), Number 4 - Summer 1975 551.) D&C 110.
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36 who helped with the Times and Seasons
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 24th, 2009
37 Ebenezer Robinson, “Items of Personal history of the Editor,” The Return, I (June, 1889), 88-91. As found in Lamar Petersen, Hearts Made Glad, Salt Lake City Utah 1975, p. 139. Also found at http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ERobinson.html
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CONCLUDING COMMMENT:
For future reference Edndori it would REALLY help if you would actually READ referenced material before you comment on it.
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Yes, the evidence is circumstantial but it's compelling. So yes, there is a subtle but strong "Yes!" statement undergirding the article. Otherwise, why write it at all?
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AND you didn't address the "smoking gun" of Joseph Smith's "Peyote Seeing Stone" as well as his descendant's use of hallucinogens.
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Reread it again - it's all there.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 24th, 2009
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And, again, as is my policy +6 for your effort but I'm doing so reluctantly.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 24th, 2009
The power of God is sufficient to produce all that you have mentioned.
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I read the article carefully the first time.
Unlike you, he is a good enough scientist to stop with the provable facts.
You do not, and then you blame it on him.
Shame on you.
by edndori on September 25th, 2009
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Yes, there's no doubt that I am truly shameful in the eyes of most Mormons - it's a burden that I must bear!
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<sniff>
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It surely keeps me up at night weeping into my pillow!
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NOT!
Now moving on . . .
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So, you still haven't addressed the "smoking gun" of Joseph Smith's "Peyote Seeing Stone" as well as his descendant's use of hallucinogens AND recommending that others in the RLDS do the same.
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We're still waiting . . .
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 25th, 2009
>"smoking gun" of Joseph Smith's "Peyote Seeing Stone" <
You haven't presented a case worth investigating.
I don't believe it.
by edndori on September 26th, 2009
>You haven't presented a case worth investigating<
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Then you clearly have NOT read the article.
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PEYOTE SEER STONE:
"Another entheogen that can occasion experience which duplicates a portion of the Book of Mormon narrative, is the Peyote Cactus. At the time of his death, Joseph Smith possessed a seer stone shaped in the likeness of a visionary peyote button.
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D. Michael Quinn writes that Joseph Smith found this stone, possibly in its ruff unshaped form, along the Mississippi River's shore between 1839 and 1844. After Joseph’s death, the stone was kept by Emma Smith and inherited by her second husband, Lewis Bidamon. It eventually made its way to the Wilford Wood Museum in Woods Cross, Utah. Quinn describes the stone as the size of a U.S. quarter dollar and “is the most intricate of those attributed to Smith. It has a hole through the center surrounded by eight smaller indentations, with tooled ridges around the edge”.78
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 27th, 2009
http://www.mormonelixirs.org/entheo/images/sunstone2007/restSacMushFromPDF_img_36.jpg
http://www.mormonelixirs.org/entheo/images/sunstone2007/restSacMushFromPDF_img_37.jpg
Shown above is a series of stills from a video80 produced by a modern well educated Huichol Indian. The scenes depict a Shaman ingesting a prepared Peyote button and entering a visionary world. The first two images are of the shaman ritually contemplating the sacramental meal. Note the reflection of the peyote in the shaman’s eye. This image has round edges, depressions where the tufts of hair were removed and a hole where the central flower was cored out. The next image is a depiction of the visionary transformation of the ingested peyote cactus demonstrated by its vivid colors and its scalloped edges radiating spiritual light, illuminating the spiritual world. The next photo shows a spirit or God seen in vision or perhaps the shaman in out-of-body flight.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 27th, 2009
http://www.mormonelixirs.org/entheo/images/sunstone2007/restSacMushFromPDF_img_38.jpg
Above is shown a comparison between the Huichol Indian representation of the visionary peyote cactus button and Joseph Smith’s most intricate seer stone. There is a central hole allowing light to shine through in both the peyote cactus and the seer stone.
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http://www.mormonelixirs.org/entheo/images/sunstone2007/restSacMushFromPDF_img_39.jpg
Surrounding the central hole on both the cactus and stone are eight circular depressions with shadows.
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http://www.mormonelixirs.org/entheo/images/sunstone2007/restSacMushFromPDF_img_40.jpg
And finally, the edges of the visionary cactus and stone are both scalloped suggesting its entheogenic property of illuminating the spiritual world.
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Why would Joseph Smith have a visionary peyote stone? What could peyote have to do with Joseph’s visionary experience?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 27th, 2009
The answer may be that peyote put Joseph Smith in contact with ancient Amerindian cultures gifting him with the material that was later incorporated into the Book of Mormon. The experience occasioned by mescaline, the psychoactive component of peyote, in a modern user replicates an account of Joseph Smith’s boyhood visionary knowledge of the ancient Amerindian. Joseph’s mother, Lucy Mack noted that even before receiving the gold plates, her son was gifted with an extensive knowledge of the inhabitants of ancient America.
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During our evening conversations, Joseph would … describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.81
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 27th, 2009
A cactus like Peyote that contains mescaline could have occasioned direct experience with ancient Amerindian cultures.
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78 D. Michael Quinn. 1998a p. 246-247
79 Dale Pendell, 2005b:338
80 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4H8sS6F9c
81 Smith, L. M. (1853). Biographical Sketches of Jsoeph Smith the Prophet, and His Progenitors for many Generations. Liverpool, England: S.W. Richards. P. 85.
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AND THE REFERENCE TO ONE OF HIS DESCENDENTS - FREDRICK M. SMITH:
"Did hallucinogens facilitate Joseph Smith's visions & those of early Mormon converts? In his 1975 book, Hearts Made Glad, Lamar Petersen carefully documented the use of intoxicants by Joseph Smith and early converts to the LDS Church. While mostly interested in the consumption of various fermented and distilled alcohols, Petersen also noted strange behaviors associated with the sacramental use of what seemed to outside observers to be medicated wine.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 27th, 2009
It appears that soon after the Church was organized in New York and later in Ohio, members partook of wine in sacrament meetings which occasioned visionary states and strange behaviors not typically associated with alcohol consumption or intoxication. It is my thesis that beginning at a young age, Joseph Smith experimented with psychedelic plants and that many of Joseph Smith revelations and much of his behavior can be attributed to the use of psychedelics. Following Joseph Smith's death, the pragmatic Brigham Young had no interest in psychedelic material, or was unaware of its use, and hence it did not become a part of Utah Mormonism. However, James Strang and Fredrick M. Smith (Joseph Smith's grandson and president of the RLDS Church) perpetuated the use of psychedelics in their branches of Joseph Smith's original movement. The use of psychedelics by the Strangites and the RLDS Church could not be sustained.
http://www.mormonelixirs.org/
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 27th, 2009
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I REPEAT FOR EMPHASIS:
"...James Strang and Fredrick M. Smith (Joseph Smith's grandson and president of the RLDS Church) perpetuated the use of psychedelics in their branches of Joseph Smith's original movement."
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Coincidence? I think not!
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Repsonse?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 27th, 2009
No, not coincidence.
More like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.
by edndori on September 27th, 2009
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Again with the Information Control technique called, "Diminishing".
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The evidence is pretty persuasive and deserving of a LEGITIMATE response rather than a casual hand toss.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 28th, 2009
That "evidence" would be laughed out of a court of law.
It isn't evidence at all, its insinuation.
by edndori on September 28th, 2009
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>That "evidence" would be laughed out of a court of law<
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That is YOUR opinion. I doubt that the other jurors would be so persuaded especially in light of the FULL body of evidence that this researcher has generated to support his case.
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Your founding prophet walked around with an Occultic Jupiter Talisman in one pocket and a Peyote Seer Stone in the other. His great grandson used Peyote as a means to revelation and encouraged others in the RLDS to do so as well.
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Where there's smoke, there's . . .
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 28th, 2009
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Edndori, your arguments are getting thinner and thinner and thinner and thinner. At this point I would hope that the only people who can't see through their rice paper thinness are other Mormons.
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Clearly you love and worship the LdS Church above God and His revealed word, the Bible.
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I will leave you with your idols and in the hand of God.
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And all my threads with you have gotten intolerably long. I am unsubcribing from them all.
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-UNSUBCRIBED-
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 28th, 2009
>Where there's smoke, there's . . .<
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Balderdash!
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That is why this country has laws prohibiting slander and libel.
by edndori on September 28th, 2009