"I perceived the world differently as a Mormon. Those who had not lived valiantly in the pre-existence were cursed to be born black, dark or yellow skinned or into Christian, Buddhist, or Muslim homes." ExMormon, Andy Pollard. Thoughts?

Comments

Comments

• Thank you for your answer. +6
  .
  This is an interesting thesis. Please present your evidence.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• See: The Mark of Cain

  • Report
  

  by Big Dan on August 26th, 2009

• Wikipedia has a great article on The Curse of Cain

  • Report
  

  by laie_techie on August 26th, 2009

• .
  Nice citations there guys - the reader has to do all the work. That's why I challenged it to begin with! I already knew the answer. A quip like that is NOT evidence. So I'll do the heavy lifting here . . .
  .
  As Alexander Campbell in his review of the Book of Mormon:
  .
  "This prophet Smith, through his stone spectacles, wrote on the plates of Nephi, in his book of Mormon, every error and almost every truth discussed in N. York for the last ten years."
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=80486&catid=520
  .
  So while Joseph may have parroted existing doctrinal error the fact remains that it WAS ERROR. There never WAS any Biblical justification for "The Curse of Cain" - ever.
  .
  So, yes, this error over skin color may have originated with racist Christians it was likewise renounced and abandoned as soon as the error was exposed. This is no longer any part of mainstream Christian Culture.
  .
  Mormon Culture? Not so much. It's still there.

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• It originated long before Mormons, as you admit, and most Mormons don't believe it these days either.

  • Report
  

  by Big Dan on August 26th, 2009

• > most Mormons don't believe it these days either <
  .
  Officially yes. Unofficially no.
  .
  It's still deeply embedded in Mormon Culture and manifests itself in the private proliferation of racial jokes and mocking of other races. Once they're in public the "PR" image comes on and they're Politically Correct.
  .
  The quiet but pervasive message in private is, "We're better than THAT!"
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

Comments

• Excellent question! +6
  .
  From LdS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie:
  .
  "In the pre-existent eternity various degrees of valiance and devotion to the truth were exhibited by different groups of our Father's spirit offspring. One-third of the spirit hosts of heaven came out in open rebellion and were cast out without bodies, becoming the devil and his angels. The other two-thirds stood affirmatively for Christ: there were no neutrals. To stand neutral in the midst of war is a philosophical impossibility.
  .
  Of the two-thirds who followed Christ, however, some were more valiant than others. Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes.
  .
  Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence. Along with all races and peoples he is receiving here what he merits as a result of the long pre-mortal probation in the presence of the Lord. The principle is the same as will apply when all men are judged according to their mortal works and are awarded varying statuses in the life hereafter.
  .
  -- Horne, Dennis B. (2000). Bruce R. McConkie: Highlights From His Life & Teachings. Eborn Books. ISBN 1-890718-01-7; quoting from his 1958 writings on the ban on Black Priesthood.

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• Well, that's one of the most original reasons for racism I've read. "To stand neutral in the midst of war is a philosophical impossibility." ~ reckon the Quakers are more philosophical than ol' D. Horne and his cronies.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Dracool on August 26th, 2009

• Note that Horne quoted from the 1958 writings of McConkie (which made their way almost verbatim into the 1966 edition of "Mormon Doctrine") which were edited out of the second edition for being false doctrine.

  • Report
  

  by laie_techie on August 26th, 2009

• .
  Really?
  .
  Here's the list of edits between editions:
  http://www.ldsgospeldoctrine.net/kn/random/mo-doc.txt
  .
  You will note that the passage that Mr. Horne cites were NOT, I repeat NOT, included in the changes to the Second Edition.
  .
  Your point is moot.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• Whose point is moot?

  • Report
  

  by Dracool on August 26th, 2009

• That document you cite does not list ALL the changes and omissions between the first and second editions of "Mormon Doctrine", nor does it enumerate all "some 1067" doctrinal errors.

  • Report
  

  by laie_techie on August 26th, 2009

• .
  >Whose point is moot?<
  .
  Laie is using the classic LdS Apologetic against "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce McConkie and it's bunk (as usual).
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• >That document you cite does not list ALL the changes and omissions between the first and second editions of "Mormon Doctrine", nor does it enumerate all "some 1067" doctrinal errors<
  .
  Hair splitting and you know it.
  .
  Laie, give it up. This doctrine - be it official or NOT is so deeply embedded within LdS Culture that it will take generations to flush out. I was using McConkie as an authoritative reference point nothing more. However, reality is reality.
  .
  I know that you don't get confronted with it by White Mormons due to your "Lamanite" lineage but, trust me, in private it's held to and discussed.
  .
  I have HEARD it personally AND ExMormons have admitted this publicly.
  .
  Bruce McConkie was, as he always did SO well, just stating the facts and letting the chips fall where they will. However, in the end it's really irrelevant.
  .
  It's reality whether you and your Lamanite brethren like it or not.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• Are there any black Mormons?

  • Report
  

  by Friendo on August 27th, 2009

• I think so, Friendo. But are there any black bishops in LDS?

  • Report
  

  by Dracool on August 27th, 2009

• >Are there any black Mormons?<
  .
  Yes, several in fact. In fact, it's pretty hard to find a non-Black Bishop in Africa.
  .
  Here's are some good links for you:
  http://www.blacklds.org/
  http://www.blacklds.org/videos
  .
  In fact, Black Mormons are now having such a positive impact on the LdS Church that most Mormons are scratching their head and wondering why they didn't nuke the ban long ago!
  .
  I have many Mormon Heroes and in Darius Gray in in the top 10 - maybe the top 5. Here's my all-time favorite Darius Gray presentation - it's stellar!
  http://mormonstories.org/?p=95
  .
  Darius Gray is more assuredly one of the greatest Mormons of our time.

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 27th, 2009

• Interesting. But these two comments on that link express my thoughts better than I could:
  
  Did not the 1978 ‘revelation’ come oh so coincidentally close to a ruling of the Supreme Court concerning the Elk’s Clubs’ tax exemption? My father recalls that it was no secret and even major media widely reporting such coincidence. Why didn’t you raise this point in your interview with Darius Gray and Margaret Young?
  Isn’t it plain as day that the mormon church made a political/economic decision rather than anything resembling principle or spiritual?
  “Superstition, idolatry, and hypocrisy have ample wages, but truth goes a-begging.”
  Table Talk — Martin Luther

  • Report
  

  by Dracool on August 27th, 2009

• I definitely believe that the church, and thus “revelation”, are directly tied to worldly/global events…so you’re preaching to the choir here.
  
  Also, Darius and Margaret are quite savvy….they understand the issues and history much, much better than we do.
  
  My point for this podcast wasn’t to grill them as much as to let them tell their story/position/viewpoint…..and I also know that Margaret and Darius have worked *very* hard to retain some “credibility” with church leaders….so I had no desire to “embarass” them or put them on the spot. They’re good people doing good work….and I would only want to support their efforts to make positive/productive change from within (something guys like me don’t have much of a chance at doing).
  
  I’m sure that Darius and Margaret both would openly and happily concede that global/worldly pressure impacts church policy and “revelation”–sometime negatively, and sometimes positively.
  
  I think it could easily be argued that the pressure on David O. McKay in the 60s actually PROLONGED the lifting of the ban….so as to ensure that the brethren would not look like they were caving to pressure (read David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism for more on this).
  
  Anyway…my 2 cents.

  • Report
  

  by Dracool on August 27th, 2009

• >Why didn’t you raise this point in your interview with Darius Gray and Margaret Young?<
  .
  You can hardly expect Darius Gray and Margaret Young to take that stance given their stalwart devotion to the LdS Church. However for LdS they're well above average.
  .
  > Isn’t it plain as day that the mormon church made a political/economic decision rather than anything resembling principle or spiritual? <
  .
  It is to Mormon Critics like you and I. However Mormon Stalwarts are blind - no, let me be more precise in my language - CHOOSE to be blind to the evidence.
  .
  > I think it could easily be argued that the pressure on David O. McKay in the 60s actually PROLONGED the lifting of the ban….so as to ensure that the brethren would not look like they were caving to pressure <
  .
  Your insights are astute and to the point. I agree 100%.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 27th, 2009

• The individual Mormon people I've met (in real life, NOT on AB)have been good people who didn't try to recruit me, and one especially, was very good to my family in a time of need. I am suspicious of any organized religion, LDS among them, but not, usually, of the everyday followers who are just trying to get by like most of us. The Mormons I've personally known seem better educated than most religious people.

  • Report
  

  by Dracool on August 27th, 2009

• .
  Again, no disagreement. The Mormon people are great and I love 'em!
  .
  I have many family members and friends who are Mormons and they are dear to me.
  .
  However the LdS Church, LdS Theology and MormonISM as a belief system . . . not so much.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 27th, 2009

• In the Mormon Church, Negroes are allowed to hold the priesthood. So I do not know what you are talking about.

  • Report
  

  by jasminelockerby on January 1st, 2010

Comments

• Thank you for your answer. +6
  .
  However, a famous Apostle LdS Apostle seems to differ with your assessment:
  .
  "“One-third of the spirit hosts of heaven came out in open rebellion and were cast out without bodies, becoming the devil and his angels.…The other two-thirds stood affirmatively for Christ; there were no neutrals.…Those who were less valiant in pre-existence…are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin.…The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned…but this inequality is not of man’s origin. It is the Lord’s doing.…
  —Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966ed., pp. 526-527
  .
  “The race and nation in which men are born in this world is a direct result of their pre-existent life.”
  —Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1986ed., p. 616
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• Bruce R. McConkie was NOT an Apostle at the time he wrote "Mormon Doctrine". Secondly, "The Brethren" forbade McConkie from publishing such a book. Thirdly, The Brethren found over 100 doctrinal errors in the 1966 edition and denounced it. They wanted McConkie to denounce it, too, but McConkie published a second edition.

  • Report
  

  by laie_techie on August 26th, 2009

• .
  Yawn . . .
  .
  "Yesterday's doctrine is today's heresy. Today's doctrine is tomorrow's heresy."
  .
  And, by the way, the Second Edition was not only published with the full knowledge of The Brethren but in 1958 at the behest of the First Presidency, the proofs were reviewed by Mark E. Petersen and Marion G. Romney and McConkie made the changes that they mandated. Ditto for Spencer W. Kimball who did the final review in 1966.
  http://ndbf.blogspot.com/2007/03/controversy-over-mormon-doctrine.html
  .
  Then, of course, they distanced themselves from the work calling it "unofficial" (a la today's LdS Apologist model) just in case. Plausible deniably - it's the way of The Brethren.
  .
  That way Mormon Stalwarts can make the assertions that you've made and said it with dogmatic conviction even though it's just not that straight forward or simple.

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• If you read that page you cite, you will notice how many times it was repeated that the Brethren did not want a reprint, even if those 1067 errors found by Petersen found were corrected. McConkie was told not to republish - and he agreed - yet he did it anyways.
  -
  The examination by Petersen and Romney occurred after the first publication because people believed it to be an authoritative work, despite McConkie's disclaimer.

  • Report
  

  by laie_techie on August 26th, 2009

Comments

• Thank you for your answer. +6
  .
  However, if your assertion is true then why is this so common - and at the highest levels of Mormon culture?
  .
  Please refer to the Bruce R. McConkie quotes that I clipped for Laie.
  .
  Other ExMormons have admitted that they were taught this VERY thing in their Mormon families.
  .
  So if it's so horrible why is it so common?

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

• Probably because Bruce R. McConkie believed it, just like he believed a lot of things that weren’t true—and was officially censured for teaching them. There’s a reason those quotes aren’t found in the 1979 edition of McConkie’s so-called *Mormon Doctrine*. ;-)
   
  It’s like the people that think the Sacrament Meeting invocation must be offered by a Priesthood holder, despite the fact that President Kimball took the Church to task for believing something so ridiculous. If there’s one thing you and I agree on, it’s that some people keep right on believing whatever they darned well please, despite all evidence to the contrary.

  • Report
  

  by the Otter on August 26th, 2009

• > If there’s one thing you and I agree on, it’s that some people keep right on believing whatever they darned well please, despite all evidence to the contrary <
  .
  Good point. And yes we've seen this all-too-human tendency on both sides of the divide haven't we?
  .
  I can't even get Seventh-day Adventists to dialog with me. Maybe my reputation has preceded me!
  .
  ;-)

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

Comments

• .
  It was one of Andy's reasons too BTW. +6

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

Comments

• .
  Well he doesn't feel this way today:
  .
  "My false Mormon beliefs had been setting me up for a fall. Jesus warned us:
  .
  “For everyone who exalts himself will be
  humbled, and he who humbles himself
  will be exalted” (Luke 18:14)."
  .
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=30&Itemid=44

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

Comments

Comments

• "Mormonism IS a branch of Christianity isn't it?" Only by word association.
  *
  Mormonism is as far removed from Christianity as Satanism. If you study the doctrine of Christianity and of Mormonism, you will see just how different they are.
  *
  You will discover how LDS have always separated them selves from those apostate Christian religions. Only until the 70's, have they attempted to align them selves and leach onto the Christian namesake.

  • Report
  

  by Joseph Smith was a fraud and Eisegete on August 26th, 2009

• Well thanks for enlightening me on this subject. I'll admit that I'm not as well-read about LDS as I'd like to be.

  • Report
  

  by Iron_Monkey on August 26th, 2009

• Mormonism is a fascinating subject. A great work of fiction and deceit entwined with death and destruction. I couldn't even tell you where to begin

  • Report
  

  by Joseph Smith was a fraud and Eisegete on August 26th, 2009

• > Mormonism IS a branch of Christianity isn't it? <
  .
  No it isn't and never has been. Like Joe said their attempts to appear "Christian" are a relatively recent development. Historically they have been antagonist and felt themselves superior to Christianity.
  .
  Please consider this link:
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=79038&catid=10
  .
  > I LIKE being yellow-skinned (if by yellow-skinned you're referring to Asians) <
  .
  Actually it wasn't me, it was the author, Andy Pollard. And yes, he was referring to Asians.
  .
  And you SHOULD be proud. Many of FWBs like me are jealous of the many of the achievements, culture and the historical legacy of the Chinese, Japanese and other Asian cultures.
  .
  I certainly wouldn't want to challenge many of my Asian brethren to a "Math Duel!" I'd lose BADLY!!!!
  .
  ;-)

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 26th, 2009

Comments