Do Mormon Missionaries lie to and/or withhold the truth about the controversial claims of Mormonism to those investigating the LdS Church?

Comments

• +5. I gave you full credit even though you answered a question which an editorial. As to the arguments you present in your editorial, I would encourage you to watch the video and then see if you feel the same way.

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on July 8th, 2009

Comments

• Thank you. +6

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 7th, 2009

Comments

• And how, exactly, is that not lying?
  .
  "...their students to not have the tools to understand advanced concepts."
  .
  And how, exactly, is this not arrogant, condescending, manipulative and deceptive?

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 19th, 2009

• Then why waste all those years in elementary, middle and high school. Send the kids directly to college and save time!
  .
  Great technique, if you want to foster confusion and rejection.
  And THAT is arrogant, condescending, manipulative and deceptive.

  • Report
  

  by edndori on June 19th, 2009

• .
  Your analogy is fallacious.
  .
  If you view the Robert Millet video he is talking about deliberately deflecting, avoiding, and obstructing direct questions.
  .
  Now tell me, if someone is informed enough to ask a question on a particular subject why wouldn't you answer it?
  .
  Unless you have something to hide of course . . .
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 19th, 2009

• He is talking about putting off an answer until proper groundwork can be laid to understand that answer. Nothing to hide. We'll give you an answer when you are ready to understand it, if you haven't figured it out for yourself by then.

  • Report
  

  by edndori on June 19th, 2009

• >Nothing to hide<
  .
  Really?
  .
  Then why aren't Brigham Young's 56 wives - 54 of them illegal polygamous wives - when one does the tour of the "Beehive House" in Utah?
  http://www.lds.org/placestovisit/location/0,10634,1863-1-1-1,00.html
  .
  Why are KEY components of Joseph Smith's life - such as Polygamy, and stirring up violence against "Gentiles" during the 1838 Mormon War - conveniently left out of the Temple Square film, "Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration"?
  http://www.mormoninfo.org/news-info/film-reviews/lds-films/joseph-smith-prophet-restoration
  .
  >We'll give you an answer when you are ready to understand it, if you haven't figured it out for yourself by then<
  .
  Yes. This is called, "Milk before meat" but I prefer the more precise term: "Manipulative Deception"
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 7th, 2009

• Any course of instruction begins with the basics needed to understand the subject and builds from there.
  .
  These presentations are designed to introduce visitors to the church. As such there is only time for the most basic material.
  .
  Those who want to know more will ask, and instruction can continue in an orderly and organized fashion.
  .
  The church has suffered considerable persecution, particularly at its beginning. This includes not only physical violence, but verbal abuses and accusations leveled against it by its persecutors that the church itself was the cause of the violence.

  • Report
  

  by edndori on September 7th, 2009

• <eye rolls and shrugs>
  .
  Which is all spin for the fact that the LdS Church uses the standard Mind Control Cult of hiding controversial or difficult to accept teachings and practices until the initiate has become entrenched (and snapped) enough to accept them without much (or any) struggle.
  .
  Nothing new here. All cults do it but the LdS Church is phenomenally good at it.
  .
  Once again, from Luna Fletcher (ExMormon and now a Cult Exit Counselor):
  .
  "Most true believing members will never notice deceptive practices on the part of the Church. Yet ex-Mormons and non-Mormons who study the Church have found many deceptions in Church history, obsolete doctrines, use of Church funds, personal stories told by General Authorities (higher Church leadership), etc.
  .
  There are many quotes from leaders (unknown to most members) justifying misleading and deception "for the greater good".
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 7th, 2009

• Boyd K. Packer said, "there is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful." [Emphasis added] ("Do not spread disease germs!" Brigham Young University Studies, Summer 1981)
  .
  The few members who ask critical questions regarding doctrines and authority are often mislead or lied to. Deceptions are easily hidden by warm-fuzzy, blame-deflecting language, such as "You misunderstood", "Milk before the meat", "We love you", "Heavenly Father's ways are mysterious", "Trust/Have faith", "You will understand in time", "Listen to the Spirit", "You're not worthy enough to understand", "God's ways are not man's ways", and "Don't be deceived by Satan".
  .
  Members are usually unaware of deception because their sole source of information is the Church...

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 7th, 2009

• Members are usually discouraged from reading that which is critical of the Church (known as Anti-Mormon or apostate material). Such material was inspired by Satan. Reading it will take away the Spirit so you will be deceived and misguided. Your testimony will be endangered. Supposedly Church critics are angry, hateful, spiteful, disrespectful, destroyers, "faith-killers", followers of Satan, and persecutors. “You can leave they church, but you can’t leave it alone.”
  
  Mormons cannot see any legitimate motives for criticism. From their reasoning, where is there room for criticism of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, the one true Church, and God’s own anointed leaders? Questioning all of that makes no sense to the practicing Mormon.
  
  Documented historical data is discounted as lies and crafty deception from Satan."
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=80003&catid=532
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 7th, 2009

• I remember for the sake of emphasis and clarity:
  .
  "Most true believing members will never notice deceptive practices on the part of the Church. Yet ex-Mormons and non-Mormons who study the Church have found many deceptions...
  .
  There are many quotes from leaders (unknown to most members) justifying misleading and deception "for the greater good"...
  .
  Members are usually unaware of deception because their sole source of information is the Church."
  .
  So Edndori, your indignant, incredulous, disbelieving apologetic is hardly surprising. Rather, it's validation of everything Ms. Fletcher and other who have studied the LdS Church and Mormon Culture have reported.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 7th, 2009

• I haven't the time the resources nor the inclination to track down each of your claims. Those I have taken the time and effort to track down and investigate have proven to be groundless in every single case. When you venture in to current beliefs and practices you make ludicrous claims. Your ventures in to doctrine make no sense to me and are not consistent with the Bible
  .
  Matt. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits....
  .
  Your fruits have given me no cause to trust you.
  While the fruits I see the church produce give me every cause to trust it.

  • Report
  

  by edndori on September 8th, 2009

• .
  >Your fruits have given me no cause to trust you<
  .
  Really? That's a very interesting statement.
  .
  The fact is that you wouldn't know me if we were standing next to each other in line as the grocery store. Yet somehow you know what the "fruit" of my life is? (which of course is what Jesus was referring to - the false prophet would be living a life of moral failings and sin - you now like the lying, deceiving, sexually immoral Joseph Smith did)
  .
  >Those I have taken the time and effort to track down and investigate have proven to be groundless in every single case<
  .
  Again, really? Even the statements made by faithful Mormons, ExMormons, Experts in their field, etc., etc., etc.
  .
  The pattern I've noticed is that ANYTHING from ANY source that doesn't support your beliefs gets immediately diminished or rejected without being given fair consideration.
  .
  This is called "Thought Control" and it is a Cult Mind Control technique.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• >When you venture in to current beliefs and practices you make ludicrous claims<
  .
  Once again, really?
  .
  How is seeing the same things that those outside the Mormon System - and many times those INSIDE the Mormon System see clearly is "ludicrous"?
  .
  Rather, I think that ANYTHING that doesn't support YOUR personal belief system - regardless the source - is going to be "Thought Controlled" out as a means of dealing with any hint of cognitive dissonance.
  .
  I find it unfortunate that at 62-years of age you are entrenched and embedded within your own mind that you can't objectively and fairly receive ANYTHING that causes you discomfort. Apparently you stopped thinking years ago and that suits you just fine.
  .
  Even it means following unreliable leaders who lead a questionable organization.
  .
  That's really sad.
  .
  
  >Your ventures in to doctrine make no sense to me and are not consistent with the Bible<

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• .
  I see.
  .
  So "plumblining" LdS Theology against the Bible and finding it wanting is "inconsistent with the Bible"?
  .
  No, I believe that I have demonstrated that LdS Theology is ONLY internally consistent and ONLY works when you layer on EXTRA Biblical sources like LdS Scripture, oral folklore, and oratory from LdS Leaders.
  .
  This is hardly anything new - Christians have been doing this since 1830 and coming to the same conclusions that I have . . .
  .
  Mormonism is based on heresy, distortions, and Extra-Biblical fantasies.
  .
  So Edndori, the consensus OUTSIDE of Mormonism is clear: Your leaders ventures into doctrine make no sense and are not consistent with the Bible
  .
  So, if the clear record and witness against Mormonism is unclear to you, I'm not the problem mate. I have articulated the case every way I can think of and will continue to do so.
  .
  Rather, it's clear that you don't see the truth because you won't see the truth.
  .
  You're blind and you love it!

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• Your just upset because I follow the church leaders rather than you.
  For starters, the things they tell me make sense.
  The things you tell me don't.
  .
  And you're upset because I insist on thinking for myself rather than letting you tell me what to think.
  .
  And I DO know you, by the fruits I see on this board.
  True, that's a limited window, but it is a window.
  And what I see through it is not encouraging.

  • Report
  

  by edndori on September 8th, 2009

• >And I DO know you, by the fruits I see on this board<
  .
  Oh do tell. Exactly what moral failings have you seen from me on this board?
  .
  >Your just upset because I follow the church leaders rather than you.
  For starters, the things they tell me make sense.
  The things you tell me don't<
  .
  Ah there's Thought Control - thank you for demonstrating how it works.
  .
  >And you're upset because I insist on thinking for myself rather than letting you tell me what to think<
  .
  No, I'm actually not upset at all. I believe that you're projecting. Thank you, I'll take that as feedback that you're feeling some degree of cognitive dissonance.
  .
  What I'm TRYING to do is to get you to examine your thoughts and beliefs from a reference point other than the Mormon System and you simply won't do it.
  .
  Rather you engage Cult Thought Control techniques such as:
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• III. Thought Control
  1. Need to internalize the group's doctrine as "Truth"
  .
  a. Map = Reality
  b. Black and White thinking
  c. Good vs. evil
  d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)
  .
  2. Adopt "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clichés").
  Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words".
  .
  3. Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged.
  .
  4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.
  .
  a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
  b. Chanting
  c. Meditating
  d. Praying
  e. Speaking in "tongues"
  f. Singing or humming
  .
  5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• 6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful
  .
  http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm#thought
  .
  (And, BTW, I've also noticed your heavy use of Information Control as well)

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• .
  And, of course, here's are links to how others have analyzed Mormon Mind Control techniques relative to the BITE model:
  .
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=80003&catid=532
  .
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=80001&catid=532
  .
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=79855&catid=532
  .
  Naturally, I know that you won't be using them - or giving them any credibility if you do - however, there they are if your situation (or miracle of miracles - thoughts and feelings) should change.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• The part I have trouble understanding is, with your knowledge of cult thought control techniques, how is it that you cannot recognize that that is what is being done to you.
  How is it that you try to use these techniques on me and do not recognize what you are doing?
  .
  Is it entirely because you are embedded in the matrix and cannot recognize it from there?
  Or are you one of the prime movers, fully cognizant of what you are doing, and doing it not because you are under control, but out of an desire to control others?

  • Report
  

  by edndori on September 8th, 2009

• >How is it that you try to use these techniques on me and do not recognize what you are doing?<
  .
  Edndori, I have taken the time, effort and even invested great sums of capital to examine my Christian Beliefs and Worldview from perspectives OUTSIDE of the Christian system.
  .
  I read what I want.
  I watch what I want.
  I listen to what I want.
  .
  I am thinking and I am growing. I'm not bound by the Christian "box". AND I call "bull chips" on Christian Culture and Teachings as readily as I do on other systems.
  .
  I don't consider Christian Leaders infallible and I view everthing that come from them with some degree of skepticism.
  .
  I don't trust my feelings and I would NEVER use them as the ultimate test of truth. I trust my mind to a far greater degree but I also know that I can be prone to self-deception so I try to remain open, humble and teachable.
  .
  I am not held captive by any man or any group. I am free to walk out the door ANY time.
  .
  Can you say the same to the above?

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• .
  And I have found the following analysis of Biblical Christianity and Mormonism relative to the BITE model quite reasonable and accurate relative to my own experience and observations:
  .
  http://www.4witness.org/jehovahs_witness/jw_lds_cults.php
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• I read what I want.
  I watch what I want.
  I listen to what I want.
  And I make my own decisions. The church cannot force me and neither can you.
  .
  You say you don't trust your feelings.
  The evidence says otherwise.
  You accept what you feel is right, then go looking for evidence with which to justify your choice. You twist and turn it, you use force on it like a square peg in a round hole, but you MAKE it fit.
  .
  I read your link clear through.
  It is a truly masterful work of propaganda.
  There are few actual lies in it.
  Most of the desired result is achieved by phraseology selected to make one seem less reasonable than it is, while making the other seem more reasonable than it is. You would call this spin.
  Satan would be proud of them for creating a false impression with so few actual, detectable lies.

  • Report
  

  by edndori on September 8th, 2009

• .
  >I read what I want.
  I watch what I want.
  I listen to what I want.
  And I make my own decisions. The church cannot force me and neither can you<
  .
  Then I will issue the same challenge that we would issue to addicts in AA when they would tell us, "I can quit ANY time!":
  .
  You can prove ALL your assertions - and make me the fool - by leaving the LdS Church. Just leave since you are your own man! Since you're so free and unencumbered.
  .
  If it's true that you are NOT a snapped Mind Control Cultist you can prove it by walking away.
  .
  Leave. Do it.
  .
  I did. I walked away from Christianity and became an Atheist for several years. And I've gotta tell ya: I was a damn good Atheist!
  .
  So, let's see it: Put your walk where your talk is . . .
  .
  Walk away and don't look back.
  .
  We're waiting . . .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 8th, 2009

• I am where I choose to be.
  Your "challenge" is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to take control.
  I continue to make my own decisions. I will not let you make them for me.
  .
  As for making a fool of you, no need.
  You've already done that yourself.

  • Report
  

  by edndori on September 8th, 2009

• > Your "challenge" is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to take control <
  .
  Not at all.
  .
  I'm giving you a wonderful opportunity to show the world just how wrong I am.
  .
  That the LdS Church and Mormon Culture doesn't have ANY of the characteristics of a Mind Control Cult.
  .
  That you are NOT in a "Snapped" Mental State.
  .
  That you have full free agency and full autonomy over your life.
  .
  That all the claims that I and other Mormon Critics have made on AB and elsewhere are bunk, bogus, "propaganda", etc., etc., etc.
  .
  However, if taking a BIG step is too onerous how about a small one instead?
  .
  Stop all Mormon related activity for 90-days.
  .
  No church mettings.
  No reading of LdS Scripture.
  No Temple Work.
  No reading of LdS Scripture.
  No defending the LdS Church in any way.
  .
  And, of course, removing your Temple Garments and leaving them off for 90-days as well.
  .
  Then on day 91 right back in you go!
  .
  There you go - that's a good start. A nice, small step!

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 9th, 2009

• I am my own man, and choose not to.
  If I were to walk away from it, even for 90 days, critics ould call that proof I don't really believe in it.
  In any case, the truth is sufficient for me.
  I have no need to "show" the world anything except my obedience to God.
  .
  Nor do I need to prove that I could if I chose to.
  That is already proven by all the ex-Mormons you are so pleased with.
  .
  Yours is a child's dare, and I am not a child.

  • Report
  

  by edndori on September 9th, 2009

• LOL. This is good stuff!
  .
  Thanks Edndori. Like I said before the more you engage the more you demonstrate how a snapped Mind Control Cultist thinks, behaves, and responds.
  .
  So keep going . . .
  .
  I especially love this one:
  .
  ... well, maybe not ...
  .
  I was going to clip my favorite excerpts from your last response but it's ALL so good it's hard to choose which one demonstrates the highest level of entrenchment!
  .
  Wonderful stuff!
  .
  Keep going . . . please!

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 9th, 2009

• Go play with your mental blocks kit.
  Come back when you remember your manners, and how to reason as an adult.

  • Report
  

  by edndori on September 9th, 2009

• .
  That's it. Keeping going . . .
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 9th, 2009

Comments

• Thank you for an honest answer. +6
  
  Hmmmm . . .
  .
  Well that's not really the tactics or technique that Robert Millet is teaching in this Missionary Prep Seminary Class.
  .
  Essentially what he's teaching appears to be deflection, spin-doctoring and in some cases outright deceit.

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 6th, 2009

Comments

• Thank you for your answer. +6
  .
  While I'm sure that there's some truth to your answer the LdS Missionaries seem "over the top".
  .
  In the embedded video where BYU Professor Robert Millet is equipping a group of LdS Seminary Students with specific guidelines, strategies, and tactics that can be used to hide Mormonism's controversial claims from investigators before you answered.
  .
  There's also a good book written by a former LdS Missionary that discloses in detail the techniques that they use in the field:
  http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Cult-Missionary-Reveals-Secrets/dp/1884365442/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252339545&sr=8-1#reader
  .
  As well as this audio account from another former LdS Missionary:
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=78122&catid=527
  .
  There's a STRONG pattern here.

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on September 7th, 2009

Comments

• > It could be said, they don't know enough yet even at that time, to lie <
  .
  Yes, as has been noted just about everywhere - including some Pro-Mormon sites. Which is why Millet's statement that, "You already know more than than they [Anti-Mormons and Investigators] do." spoken in front of a bunch of 17-19 year old teenagers is so amusing.
  .
  +5

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on July 4th, 2009

Comments

• Did you watch the Millet video?
  .
  It kind of discredits this assertion: "Many points you bring up are so obscure that missionaries often are not aware of them, so they answer with what makes sense to themselves."
  .
  No, Millet trains them in how to deflect, avoid, and spin WHAT THEY KNOW TO BE TRUE.
  .
  Ditto in the article that I reference.
  .
  Sorry mate, Millet's video and article(s - I've only reference ONE of them, there are more) is like catching the LdS Church plan the heist prior to doing the job.
  .
  Pretty clear.
  .
  If that's not enough "Preach My Gospel" is the smoking gun.
  http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,8057-1-4424-1,00.html

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 19th, 2009

• >To lie is to knowingly state an untruth or mislead.<
  .
  Yep and that's exactly what guys like Millet train your Missionaries to do.

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 19th, 2009

• I watched that video, but I don't know who Millet is. "Never answer an antagonistic question" means only answer sincere questions. If someone is using questions to mock, belittle, or draw us into an argument we don't respond. Likewise, if the person isn't ready for the fullest answer ("meat"), provide "milk". Over the course of the discussions, the meat doctrines which are core to our beliefs will be addressed.
  -
  BTW, "Preach My Gospel" is not a smoking gun; there's nothing eye opening or unusual in there.

  • Report
  

  by laie_techie on June 19th, 2009

• >"Preach My Gospel" is not a smoking gun; there's nothing eye opening or unusual in there<
  .
  Nothing except all that's missing AND how what's presented is spun to avoid any hard questions.
  .
  Yep, smoking gun.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 20th, 2009

• As for Robert Millet here you go . . .
  .
  Robert L. Millet (b. December 30, 1947) is a Mormon theologian and is currently Richard L. Evans Professor of Religious Understanding at Brigham Young University. He received a B.S. in Psychology and an M.S. in Psychology and Religion from Brigham Young University and a Ph.D. in Religious Studies from Florida State University. He has been on faculty at BYU since 1983.
  http://www.mormonwiki.org/Robert_Millet
  .
  From the BYU Web Site:
  http://religion.byu.edu/sing_fac.php?f=Robert%20L.&l=Millet

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 20th, 2009

• Of "all that's missing" what is really relevant today? (eg. Polygamy doesn't affect our lives today, though it remains a doctrine.) Which core doctrines of the LdS Church are absent?
  -
  I'm sorry I don't know every religion teacher at every one of the LdS Church's schools. I can tell you I've had extremely vocal arguments with certain religion faculty at BYU - Hawaii over matters of doctrine.

  • Report
  

  by laie_techie on June 20th, 2009

• >Polygamy doesn't affect our lives today, though it remains a doctrine<
  .
  There's one. To say, as GBH did, that it's no longer doctrine is a flat out lie.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xai4EMInmo
  .
  But again, this is nothing new, this has been the case since Joseph Smith onward.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kzZV593dfA
  .
  It's just not practiced in THIS life and it IS still a doctrine.

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 20th, 2009

Comments

• Thanks as always Moongrim!
  .
  And if you're so inclined give me some points for the question - I'm getting close to the next level and I'm not above begging!
  .
  ;-)

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 19th, 2009

• .
  I see that +5 - thanks mate!

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 19th, 2009

Comments

• Good point. +6

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 18th, 2009

Comments

Comments

• +6
  .
  Good point. I have heard story after story about Missionaries who weren't exposed to the controversies until they hit their mission.
  .
  >There are some statistics that a third (I think) of missionaries leave the church or go inactive within two years of returning from their mission<
  .
  I've heard this too - from a couple of sources.
  .
  Maybe that's why Missionary recruitment numbers are declining.
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 18th, 2009

Comments

• As one of your comrades in arms already noted "To lie is to knowingly state an untruth or mislead."
  .
  You may like the term "decieve" better as you and every other missionary out there does such.

  • Report
  

  by Martureo on November 18th, 2009

• Thank you for your answer. +6

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 18th, 2009

• 'You may like the term "decieve" better as you and every other missionary out there does such.'
  .
  I guess some people just cannot accept an honest answer. You are letting whatever prejudice you have cloud your rational thought. It is sad that you really think all the missionaries out there "decieve" people.

  • Report
  

  by Arithon on November 18th, 2009

• Yes, I am biased. I have a Mormon family, I have a Mormon father. And I am quite biased towards the honest truth.
  .
  The "milk before meat" and "answer the question they should've asked" bits taught to most missionaries are COMPLETELY deceitful. I wonder if Paul wandered around thinking "I really shouldn't tell anyone about giving their entire life to God until they are longtime members..." Nope, he didn't. Either missionaries tell the truth and then entire truth about Mormon doctrine or they don't. Either they explain what the church is about and answer questions honestly, completely and openly or they intentionally decieve to increase membership.
  .
  Can you really say they don't?

  • Report
  

  by Martureo on November 18th, 2009

• .
  >It is sad that you really think all the missionaries out there "decieve" people<
  .
  Well let's be clear here: They don't know that they're being deceptive, they're just practicing what they were taught in the 2-week (yes, that's right non-Mormons TWO WEEK) Missionary Training Center curriculum.
  .
  It's like Dow Chemical sending out Salesmen to sell radioactive isotopes door-to-door and telling them, "It's perfectly safe and cures headaches and lumbago!"
  .
  The Salesmen are sincerely doing their job, it's the organization that's lying.
  .
  However, if a salesman discovers the truth and continues to peddle the lethal stuff as a safe cure of headache and lumbago . . . well . . .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 18th, 2009

• <They don't know that they're being deceptive, they're just practicing what they were taught in the 2-week (yes, that's right non-Mormons TWO WEEK) Missionary Training Center curriculum.>
  .
  2 weeks is the shortest time period. Mine was 9 weeks. The max is 12 weeks.
  .
  Martureo: I guess what I don't understand is your issue with teaching the gospel in a certain order. As I am sure you know, missionaries teach the basics of the gospel. After baptism, members continue their whole lives learning more about the doctrines. Are you saying missionaries should cover every topic concievable without regard to the investigators understanding? Think of how confused they would be no matter what religion was being presented.

  • Report
  

  by Arithon on November 18th, 2009

• I also think you are misunderstanding the phrase "answer the question they should've asked". Here is an example: If an investigator asked me about Baptisms for the Dead, I would answer by saying "We believe that those who did not have the opportunity to be baptised on earth are given that chance through other means." I would then explain more. I answered the question "Why is baptism for the dead necessary". There is nothing decietful in doing this.
  .
  I think what you are saying is that not only should we answer with our point of view, but missionaries should carry around notes on what the critics have to say and explain that to the investigator as well.
  .
  As you know, truth is subjective; meaning I can beleive one thing while you can believe another. Just because missionaries are not sharing what you deem the truth to be does not imply they are lying or decietful.

  • Report
  

  by Arithon on November 18th, 2009

• >2 weeks is the shortest time period. Mine was 9 weeks. The max is 12 weeks<
  .
  I did not know that! I've always heard the 2-week figure cited by Mormons and non-Mormons alike.
  .
  Thank you.
  .
  How do they determine who gets which training regiment?
  .
  And my stance regarding what the Missionaries do and do not teach is this: An honest question deserves an honest answer.
  .
  For example, IMHO, the answer to the question, "Do Mormons baptize the dead - why is this necessary?" Should ALWAYS start with, "Yes, we do." perhaps followed by, "Let me explain why we do this . . . "
  .
  That is direct, respectful and honest.
  .
  To dodge that question is deceitful.
  .
  Ditto on the question, "Did Joseph Smith really practice polygamy and have at least 34-wives?"
  .
  Again, "An honest question deserves an honest answer."

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 18th, 2009

• It is determined by their actions in the pre-existance. :) lol I couldn't resist that one.
  .
  If you will be serving in your native country, spreaking your native tongue, 2-3 weeks is normal. If you are going to a foreign country or learning a new language, 4-12 weeks is normal. I went to Germany so I had 9 weeks. My buddy went to Taiwan speaking chinese so he had the full 12.
  .
  It's worth mentioning that the MTC is more of a transition place much like basic training is for the Army. It helps you transition to a completely different lifestyle. Part of that is learning how to explain the gospel in an understandable way instead of jumping all over the place. The actual understanding of what you are teaching should have already happened through your life before you get to the MTC though. :)

  • Report
  

  by Arithon on November 18th, 2009

Comments

• I had a feeling that you might find the concept as shocking as I do!
  (with tongue very much in cheek)
  .
  And this one captures HOW to lie to investigators on video and writes articles about how to do it because they are SO proud of their lies and manipulations!
  .

  • Report
  

  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 19th, 2009

Comments

Comments

• Wait, you are admitting that answering questions truthfully didn't work so you changed your tactic. Isn't that really openly admitting that you were purposefully being deceptive because the truth didn't work?

  • Report
  

  by Martureo on November 19th, 2009

• Martureo, I understand you already believe everything a missionary says is false or untrue and that is clouding your reasoning. There is nothing deceptive in my example. I fully answered the question. You are getting caught up in a simple "Yes" or "No" answer thinking anything else is deceptive. I have actually talked to people that thought we baptized dead bodies.
  .
  Missionaries do not know the myths or preconceptions people have about our doctrine so it is important to answer in a way that takes this into consideration.
  .
  My example above proves this point. If the woman I mentioned thought we baptized dead bodies, my simple "Yes" answer did her an injustice by not correcting the error. Remember, missionaries are teaching and I'm sure even you can admit this requires structure. Look at every school system. The teachers use a certain method to ensure the ideas being taught are properly understood. Are they being deceptive as well?

  • Report
  

  by Arithon on November 19th, 2009

• "I understand you already believe everything a missionary says is false or untrue"
  Then you don't understand me at all. I said nothing of the like.
  .
  "Clouded your reasoning" is this yet another way to call someone "anti"?
  .
  I'm not even talking about the misconceptions, I'm referring to the factual information that is denied by missionaries. Such as the "deeper doctrines" that many missionaries refuse to acknowledge or polygamous actions of former prophets of the church. I have yet to meet a missionary that would be straight forward and answer a question with the truth. Believe me I've asked them in the nicest way possible, but all I've gotten is sidestepping and "we should move on."

  • Report
  

  by Martureo on November 19th, 2009

• My apologies for the snap judgement. Reading it again, it does sound inaccurate. "Clouding your reasoning" was not meant to call you "anti" in this case. I was only refering to the reasoning on the teaching process in general, not doctrinal issues.
  .
  Now that I understand more based on your last paragraph, I can understand where you are coming from. As a general rule, missionaries are not authorized to speak on "deeper doctrines" because being as young as they are, their understanding is limited. Much of those discussions involve assumptions based on previous knowledge so teaching them is problematic.
  .
  As for Church History questions, I agree the missionaries should be more informed and knowledgable about this but the truth is, they're not. This is not because they are trying to deny or hide anything, usually, but rather a lack of understanding on their part.

  • Report
  

  by Arithon on November 19th, 2009

• Deep doctrine and Church History questions are better aimed at oler (30-40) members who have had the time to learn and understand these questions. It would be wrong to blame the missionaries for not having the answers to these types of questions. In your case, I think the missionaries should introduce you to a member that would be willing to discuss these questions with you openly.
  .
  That being said, I can agree that missionaries should explain better why these questions are not within their scope to answer. I appreciate the comments though because now I better understand how it is seen by others when they do not answer these types of questions. :)

  • Report
  

  by Arithon on November 19th, 2009

• Ever heard of Dr Millet? He condones "lying for the Lord."
  .
  Your explanations on the "deeper doctrines" still do not condone the described actions of ANY missionary. Simply, if they do not understand those doctrines or the history of the church they should not be proselytizing in the first place.
  .
  Part of the reason people want to know about these "deeper doctrines" are that many can recognize heresy when they hear it. Hiding certain doctrines until someone is a member will only work on the dim, most Christians recognize false teachings early on. No amount of explanation will allow some to find baptism for the dead or exaltation acceptable. Hiding these doctrines or denying that they exist is a dastardly tactic for missionaries to increase membership. Hardly something you can claim the earliest evangelists of the 1st century did.

  • Report
  

  by Martureo on November 20th, 2009