- NEW!
by Glenn Blaylock on February 21st, 2007
I will agree with my brother. If this was intended as a joke, then it was in poor taste and show a great deal of prejudice on the part of Bill Maher. I can remember when the priesthood was extended to those of African decent. I rejoiced when I heard this news. Out of all of the members of the Church that I have known, I have only know one person that expressed negative opinion of this change. So, will you find racist among the Latter-day Saints? Yes, but they are a very small minority. The vast majority of those with whom I have associated are like me in that they prefer to judge people base on the content of their character rather than on the color of their skin (to quote Martin Luther King, Jr.).
by AntigoneRising on May 24th, 2007
The Latter Day Saints - Mormons - do have an unfortunate history of racially discriminatory theology. This position was officially abandoned, however, quite some time ago.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_race.htm
Let us remember that most Christian denomoniations have a history of racism, as does our entire culture. Bill Maher should not forget this, or treat the Mormons differently than any other group which has corrected such a path.
by Anonymous on February 21st, 2007
If it was a joke, it was a very bad one. In fact, though I am not usually that easy to offend, I find this remark to be very hghly offensive to me, as a Mormon.
No, Mormons do not believe anything that is in any way like the belief which Mr. Maher allegedly attributed to us.
Bigotry is as bigotry does. Hypocrisy is as hypocrisy does.
Those who accuse us Mormons of bigotry are usually, themselves, worse bigots than they are accusing us of being.
If Bill Maher really said this — in jest or otherwise — then he should be ashamed of himself.
by MrLugubrious on February 21st, 2007
In *theory*
"Following the succession crisis, leaders of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints excluded blacks from priesthood ordination from 1844-1978 when President Spencer W. Kimball declared that he had received a revelation from God "extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church." Other Mormon denominations dealt with the issue differently. The Community of Christ and the Strangites had already begun to allow blacks to hold the priesthood, their exclusion being thought as racist, while the Fundamentalists continue the exclusionist policy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_and_Mormonism
Of course theories often differ from the reality. In my personal experience, as well as that of many other people, LDS are unfortunately still very much racist. The worst part being that they mostly mean nothing bad by it. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2004/feat_2004-12-16.cfm
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_racism.html
http://www.salamandersociety.com/blacks/
by bunkerman on March 4th, 2007
Maher was repeating something he read on an anti-Mormon web site. It is likely based on something a member of the Church said back then - this is a common tact of anti-Mormons, they quote some obscure statement that has nothing to do with our doctrine, then present it as LDS belief and attack us for it. It would be like holding Catholics responsible for Mel Gibson's anti-Semitism...
by Atillion on December 30th, 2007
The United States has had an unfortunate historical record of racism... Don't single out one particular group... I'll bet Catholic/Protestant/Mormon/Everyone used the black/white bathroom in 1957.
by travisb on March 16th, 2008
While mormons where saying blacks can't be leaders in the church. Other christian churches where making blacks slaves.
Mormons never practiced slavery, the leaders condemned the practice. Had it not been Utah would have been a slavery state. It was not but other states where and other religions practiced slavery.
Just an example would be Southern Baptist Convention which was formed because their Northern brethren wouldn't let them practice slavery so the Southern Baptist created a new church the "Southern Baptist Convention" and they were pro slavery.
http://www.blacklds.org/
this should shed some light.
by Truth doesn't hurt on May 3rd, 2007
Brigham Young comments about blacks
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind....Cain slew his brother. Can might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, page 290).
"In our first settlement in Missouri, it was said by our enemies that we intended to tamper with the slaves, not that we had any idea of the kind, for such a thing never entered our minds. We knew that the children of Ham were to be the "servant of servants," and no power under heaven could hinder it, so long as the Lord would permit them to welter under the curse and those were known to be our religious views concerning them." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 2, page 172.)
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)
by Dr. Clint on April 18th, 2008
That is not true. Here is a scripture directly from the Book of Mormon:
"He [God] doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:33)
This website will help clarify many of your misconceptions about what Mormons teach about blacks: http://www.blacklds.org/
But I want to go a step beyond what is false, and say what is true. So what are the effects of these Mormon beliefs? I recently posted a blog entry about that (titled "What do Mormons believe?"), many of which beliefs are promoting efforts of black and white members of the Church working as equals together to make this world a better place:
http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/04/15/what-do-mormons-believe/
by dee_jay on March 21st, 2008
This is in no way true. One can get into heaven regarless of their race, gender, or social class.
by laie_techie on December 17th, 2007
Totally false. Mormons have been abolitionists since the days of Joseph Smith Jr. Joseph's desire to abolish slavery added to the tensions with their neighbors in Missouri (a slave state).
by branciforte3241 on March 31st, 2007
The questioner probably should have mentioned that Bill Maher said that this was true in the 1950's, not in the present day. It still may or may not be true, but this question vastly misrepresents what Bill Maher was saying.
by Anonymous on February 19th, 2009
“But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332
When Mormon missionaries come to the door of literally thousands of potential converts they will assure the unsuspecting that they represent "Jesus Christ" and are preaching His Gospel. However, that is not the case on many accounts.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) cannot escape their racist past. For nearly 150 years, the Mormon Church had taught that ALL blacks were cursed. Hence, a black Mormon male could not hold the highly regarded LDS Priesthood1 because of his dark skin. And since he could not hold this Priesthood, he could not enter the Mormon Temple. This doctrine in no way, shape, or form can be substantiated in Scripture. Only in the LDS scriptures does this racist doctrine exist.
To determine official LDS doctrine from unofficial speculation let us read the statements that were made by the General Authorities of the LDS Church as well as citations from the LDS "standard works." So then, official LDS teaching cannot be evaded or denied as many Mormons (especially uninformed missionaries) often do.
Cursed in Pre-existence
But, before we read what LDS leaders have taught concerning the "cursed line," we will need to go back and discover as to why dark skinned people are cursed. Then we will have a better understanding of Mormon thought on this issue. Mormons teach that when the "council of the Gods" were planning how to redeemed mankind Jesus desired to save man by giving them their free choice, however Lucifer objected and wanted to force men to serve God.
LDS scholar Bruce R. McConkie tells us:
When the plan of salvation presented . . . and when the need for a Redeemer was explained, Satan offered to come into the world as the Son of God and be the Redeemer. "Behold here am I, send me," he said. . . . But then, as always, he was in opposition to the full plan of the Father, and so he sought to amend and change the terms of salvation; he sought to deny men their agency and to dethrone God (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 193).
Therefore, the Gods rejected Lucifer's plan, which resulted in a war between the good spirit children, and the spirit children that sided with Lucifer (a third of them). But there was a group of spirits that were less valiant in this war. Hence, God (the head God) was very displeased with them so He turned their skin black. Tenth President Joseph Fielding Smith explains:
There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie furthers this teaching:
Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions impose on them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God, and his murder of Able being a black skin. . . . Noah's son married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood. . . . the negro are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concern. . . . " (Mormon Doctrine, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current ed.; emphasis added).
by Lori K still ignores stalkers and trolls on October 26th, 2008
Bill Maher is a bigot.
by ella0minnow0pea on June 22nd, 2008
Disgusting falsehood, though he probably thought it was a joke. Black people go to heaven the same as white people- through being good people. God is not racist! It was the Catholic church that spread that nonsense. No offense Catholics, your church has done some terrible things.
Don't even argue. Inquisition. Crusades.
by denidowi on May 14th, 2008
HE'S JUST AN EXPERT, I BELIEVE!
An "EX' is a 'has been', and a "spurt" is a 'Drip under pressure'!!
by crazeegeye on January 8th, 2008
Bill Maher thinks like Americans should. I'm not anti-mormon, but I am Pro-Truth, and a few of these answers show the ignorance of the Mormon church's members. Racism was attempted to be stamped out as the mormon church's theology is ever-changing, however they never did recant or apologize for many statements made by their 'authorities' on the issue. I've noticed they attempt to 'white-wash' these things and essentially filter out these prejudices, but there's no doubt they did subscribe to the blacks and other asian races as inferior. It's in their own archives. These ignorant people just need to do the SEARCH before pondering and praying and quit allowing the 'bretheren' to do all their thinking for them. :) Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.
by dash1730 on August 17th, 2007
Bill Maher is dead wrong. While isolated quotes may be found that suggest otherwise, that is not the teaching or practice of the Mormon Church.
I won't offer a guess to his motivation, but I do know he is no more an authority on Mormon doctrine than he is on any other religion he is not a practicing member and conscientious student: not Catholic, not Islam, not Buddhism, or any other.
We should all be careful of the talking heads passing opinion off as fact.
by Truth doesn't hurt on May 3rd, 2007
I have read excerpts from Mormon sermons (a few dating back to the 1800's) and I'm sorry guys, but it does appear that the Mormon faith does have a history of racial discrimination. I'm not sure why some of you seem to be denying this, but the information is out there for your review just as it was for me when I sought it out. I believe that the church has made great efforts to change this and should be commended for that moving forward. But your past is your past and you should be honest about it and move on.
-Just calling it how I see it
by mechanic on March 31st, 2007
I remeber reading this somewhere, and I think it was Brigham Young that said this.
and yes I agree, a question like this is in "bad taste". All church's have "skeleton's" in their closets that they want the world to forget.
by mechanic on March 31st, 2007
I remeber reading this somewhere, and it was Brigham Young that said this.
by RelativeTruth on March 12th, 2007
Religion scriptures are as flexible as molasses, whatever the general consensus is at the time, it will be interpreted suitably.
Churches of all sects were filled with attendees as slaves tolled the land.
So please, do not come here and start talking about how this church is/was this or that.
Religion is an archaich human need, and it shapes itself conveniently for the circumstances of any century.
by IndianaJesusfreak on November 16th, 2008
The Book of Abraham 1:20-27 declares that all those who were in the lineage of Cain could not have the priesthood and spoke of those who were cursed through the lineage of Ham and his wife Egyptus. Those who could not hold the priesthood are Black people, Egyptians, Ethiopians and all those who were from the lineage of Ham and Egyptus.
In the 170-plus year history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, every member of Quorum of the Twelve (apostles) has been a white male of American or European heritage.
by Vampyre Bat on November 16th, 2008
It is not true. It is his sick attempt at humor. It is in fact not very funny.
by Antinephi-lehi on October 26th, 2008
It was a joke. There is no truth in this. The Lord has said that it is not right that men should be in bondage one to another.
by Metalman on October 10th, 2008
i'm Mormon and i think he was probably just making a joke becuase all people can go to heaven, whites, blacks, hispanics, latinos, asians everyone.
by seattle cyn on September 20th, 2008
Bill if you are serious, Mormons are like Satan. They lie,and take from you what ever they can. But as people they are like anyone,it is theier religion that seperates them from real beleivers .The most important thing for you right now is to know just by the Mormons having the "Book of Mormon" they are breaking the very last thing said in the ONLY TRUE BOOK "THE BIBLE" it says that we are not to add nor take away from the word of GOD " THE BIBLE". They think they will be GODS in the end time of their life.Anyone that knows anything about dieing knows # 1 there is ONLY 1 God,#2 we die on earth but where we go depends on our personal relationship(FAITH) in GOD.We will go to Heaven or hell, no inbetween, they teach there are three or four levels of where we go after our human bodies pass. A CULT IT IS. DO NOT GET INVOLVED.The church of Later Day Saints is the same thing and so are the JW's.Stay away hope this helps you some.Blacks have the same ways of the BIBLE as Whites.Every nationality has all the same things the bible says we have.God Bless you and may peace be with you.
by True_To_The_Faith on May 21st, 2008
I am a proud black LDS/ Mormon member,and i am def not a slave. Infact i am a business owner (though with my spellign its hard to believe). This was def a joke. In fact in the book of Mormon, the "black" people out live the "whites" becuase of there faith... needless to say that this book is estianl to our beliefs.
i mean god inteded for all his children to return to him. that mean black white yellow green orange lol.... I do not find this joke funny. ironicly not because it is a "black" joke (i laugh at most of them myslef) but because it is misrepresnting my beliefs, my church, my life. i am sure like you many have wondered if this is true. but unlike you they did not ask... and they will form a prejudice towrd this beloved church of mine.
by jeanie16 on February 12th, 2008
good god, what a disgusting thought. and they call themselves christians !!!
by TheicidalManiac on February 12th, 2008
At one time that may have been true. There are many many quotes in the book "Origins of Power" from early Mormon prophets which explicitly state that no one with even a drop of "the blood of Cain" (that's considered to be black people BTW) can ever set foot in a temple, meaning no heaven. Furthermore, "Black Jane" Elizabeth Manning was sealed to Joseph Smith as his servant for time and all eternity, so this was a practice at some point.
It is important to note though that Mormons believe that dark-skinned people like those of African descent, as well as Native Americans (also cursed) could become "white and delightsome" if they came to God through his son Jesus, and to Jesus through the Mormon church, so if they were then white, I suppose that would allow them a chance to get in.
To the church's credit, this has been reversed, but I suspect it has more to do with societal pressures than anything else, for societal pressures have long shaped church policy.
At one time part of the temple prayer was that Mormons would swear a blood oath to "avenge the blood of the prophet against this nation" but that was removed after a U.S. Senate house committee investigated the church for treason. Also there apparently used to be a lot of "erogenous touching" in temple ceremonies, but this stopped in 1991 due to complaints by members. Also the most famous example is polygamy, which was repealed in response to threats of invasion from the President of the United States..I believe it was Teddy Roosevelt...
by crazeegeye on January 8th, 2008
This question is out of context as to what was said. He said, they used to believe this. Well, the fact is they did believe that blacks were not able to receive all the blessings because of their 'non-valliant' behavior in the life before. And his comment about it's proveable regarding the DNA evidence about the Lamanites being a 'Lost Tribe of Israel' is correct. Ignorance can be repaired, but dumb is forever. When will people stop putting their 'feelings over the facts' and do their own homework. The LDS religion is easily proved as a religion w/problems in every corner, but the hardest thing to open is a closed mind. Religion makes these points hard to debate because there's no room to debate them. Keep on just telling the truth Bill. Maybe some of these people will get a clue...someday...when it's too late. Maybe you can be the one to greet them and lovingly say, I told you so. ;)
by Briansan on October 9th, 2007
Maher believes that all religious folk suffer from mental illness. LDS were just the topic of that particular discussion.
by Worzel on September 24th, 2007
The fact that we ALL came out of Africa and migrated to other parts of the world it would then seem we are ALL going to the servants quarters and there will be a lot of space in heaven filled with nobody. It is just racist trash by B M and his ilk to be ignored except by the ignorant.
by History on September 24th, 2007
http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml
Elder MARK E. PETERSON
Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church
Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level,
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.
Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory.
by John Cox on September 28th, 2009
Well it's not true, but it doesn't sound like much of a joke either.
by jay on February 25th, 2009
If God made evry man and woman look the same how boreing would that be?we should appreciate and love the differences in people...and dont u think it would be hard to recognize one another if we all looked alike?All our problems are man made not God made.God has always told us how to treat one another we are just pathetic in wisdome and God is Great.
by Anonymous on February 7th, 2009
It would seem that Bill Maher is a racist idiot who knows nothing about religion.
by Lori K still ignores stalkers and trolls on February 3rd, 2009
Is the man going nuts? That wasn't funny and comes off as extremely bigoted. What a hateful and mean-spirited man.
by Riding the last galaxy on February 3rd, 2009
To be frank, I wouldn't take seriously anything that Bill Maher had to say. He is simply a pompous and arrogant talk show host with a national audience that he uses to pitch his atheistic stance on life. The unfortunate circumstance is that people actually listen to him and believe what he says. Such is the power of the media and Babylonwood. Just my take on it.
by whew4 on January 26th, 2009
Whether he was joking of not makes no difference, what he said was wrong. The Lord removed the curse from the "Seed of Cain" and they can now enjoy all the blessings that anyone else in our Church can enjoy. The color of their skin means nothing to the Church. One day we will all understand everything. But for now let the Lord deal with his children in his own way. We must answer to him, not the other way around. Whew4
by Shavale is very happy on November 16th, 2008
I think that it falls under Douchebaggery.
by HelloRe is anxious on October 27th, 2008
does anyone know how long ago this comment was made and where i can find the episode i have to see it to believe it
by taskboy on October 27th, 2008
Elder Mark E. Petersen Mormon Apostle at Brigham Young University on 27 August 1954 gave speech entitled "Race Problems—As They Affect the Church."
Elder Petersen said in this address:
"Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the lord in sending him to earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin.... In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection. He will get a place in the celestial glory. He will not go then even with the honorable men of the earth to the Terrestrial glory, nor with the ones spoken of as being without law."
This was based on the fact that at the time Mormons though blacks were cursed by God and couldn't receive the Mormon priest hood which is require to get to Mormon heaven. Now blacks can have the priesthood but IMO Mormonism despite improvements is still racist and white supremecist.
For example the Book of Mormon teaches that Native Americans have brown skin because they were wicked and their darker skin was a visual representation of God's disapproval.
The links below have more info:
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/mormon_racism.htm
http://www.i4m.com/think/comments/mormon-racism.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/mormon/lds_racism.html
by Markus on September 20th, 2008
For Bill Maher to say that that was pretty funny.
Well John Smith loved blacks/negroes; he felt everyone should own one.
Just Kidding.
by Markus on August 5th, 2008
Hey, I'd go to heaven as a slave or to be a slave.
by the Otter on August 3rd, 2008
Nope, not true at all. A sincere thank you for asking instead of just taking him at his word, though! :-)
by Anonymous on August 2nd, 2008
You just have to take into consideration the fact that Bill Maher is a friggin moron . In fact , he is at the front of my list of people that I'd LOVE to bitch slap !!
by dash1730 on August 2nd, 2008
The Mormon Church was founded in America and in the culture where slavery was practiced. Yet at no time have Blacks been denied access to membership, nor have never been segregated into separate wards, and with the exception of church positions requiring the Priesthood, they could hold all other position within their branch, ward or stake. A major reason the Church was persecuted in Missouri and Ohio is because it took a stand against slavery. In 1978 the Priesthood was made available to all races.
In contrast many other churches actively supported slavery & segregation. (Check out the founding of the Southern Baptist Church, as well as other southern churches ) The Southern Baptists didn't denounce segregation until 1995! So the Mormon response was 2 decades earlier
by Anonymous on July 26th, 2008
It was just a bad joke.
by crow on April 26th, 2008
As a Lds Member of the church for all of my life i can say without fear than many if not all of our leaders are not racist.
However tradition can be very vauge and is based on the belief of the individual.
Many religions have misconceptions of Christ and his teaching,many churches many faiths are based on whitewashed versions of original teachings.
The truth is out there its often hidden and its often covered up but its there,
Sadly many of our leaders in the church fear the truth of how our religion was founded as i recall there was a graeat deal of bloodshed in the early days of the christain church as a whole.
for those who truly want to know what mormons believe and why we believe it, ask us we will tell you gladly but dont assume you know all of us by the actions of some vauge group on the outskirts of time.
I live in the south and have seen the effects of race related hate and its ugly vile and not based on any scripture lds or otherwise that i have ever read.
Consider the time and place that the church was founded in it was a time of great unrest and many sought truth AS DID JOESPH SMITH.
Jesus christ himself was a decendant of king david who was a decendant of king solomon, ever read the song of solomon chapter one verse 5 ,,, look upon me because i am black because the sun hath looked upon me my mothers children were angry with me they made me the keeper of the vineyards.
so stande to reason if Jesus was his direct decendant then it seems to me that line didnt produce a blonde haired blue eyed boy.
How do I add my site to Deliverance Ministries?
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You're reading Bill Maher said on his show that Mormons believe that the only way a black person can go to heaven is as a slave. Is this true or was he just making a joke?
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Comments
Bill Maher is a jerk with a talk show. He used to be funny, now he is just angry.
by Someguy on March 12th, 2007
Yep, his act is old. For someone who professes to be for fairness and equality I can't name anyone more biased and hateful.
by Cowboy-Matter of Fact on May 24th, 2007
The church's official position matters, of course. The "unofficial" behavior also matters -- i.e. what happens behind closed doors, what happens in homes and church hallways. The sense I get from your answer is that at one time, there was official opposition to the idea of blacks in leadership positions, and that has changed -- probably correlated with a change in the views of the rank-and-file as well, yes?
by Stableboy on January 10th, 2008
As has been discussed else where, there was a time when blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood. Just why this policy was put into place is not known, but it was in force during a period of time when the vast majority of white people considered blacks to be inferior to white people and would not have accepted them in positions of authority. So, it is possible that God was giving us time, as a society, to grow up and shed our racist dispositions. Whatever the reason, a revelation was given in in 1978 that it was time to abandon that policy and open up the priesthood to worthy males.
-
I was still fairly young when this revelation was given. However, I understood the implications of it and I rejoiced that it had been given as did most other members that I knew. As I wrote above, I have only met one member that has ever expressed negative feelings about the change.
by Glenn Blaylock on January 10th, 2008
Thanks for the clarification.
by Stableboy on January 10th, 2008
Your welcome.
by Glenn Blaylock on January 10th, 2008
Once again Glenn, you have failed to address the question head-on. The question was directly about the NATURE by which blacks can go to heaven in your theology. I know as well as you do that it is not true that blacks can only go to heaven as slaves. The church finally turned its position around and that is a good thing. However, Joseph Smith HIMSELF had a black woman sealed to him as a servant. So at one time this WAS the practice.
by TheicidalManiac on February 12th, 2008
TM, just because one particular black woman was sealed as a servant doesn’t mean all had to be. The Church’s position on blacks has never changed: the Church has always maintained that some blacks are of the lineage of Canaan and some are not, just like some whites are of the lineage of Canaan and some are not. The same goes for reds, browns, yellows, mauves, and any other color you can think of; it just so happens that blacks make up the large percentage of that lineage, which isn’t surprising given the Lord’s statement that “a veil of darkness shall cover [Canaan] that he shall be known among all men” (The Holy Scriptures: Inspired Version, Genesis 9:30; see http://tinyurl.com/58kmqn for complete text).
The only thing that changed on 1 June 1978 is that before that date, the Church taught that the Canaanites would one day receive all the blessings of the Gospel; since that date, the Church has taught that that the prophecy has been fulfilled.
by the Otter on May 14th, 2008
Otter, please show me where I said that all black women had to be sealed as servants...IF YOU ARE GOING TO TELL ME THAT I AM WRONG FOR SAYING IT CHECK TO SEE IF I DID! In fact I said the opposite in the post that you obviously only glossed over: "I know as well as you do that it is not true that blacks can only go to heaven as slaves." -Me.
You are an idiot and a babboon; every time you type you present a mere caricature of my position. You are clearly incompetent to fathom my simple, simple argument. You lack vision, and seem impotent to escape the box your church has built in your mind.
by TheicidalManiac on August 2nd, 2008
moron
by TheicidalManiac on August 2nd, 2008
Nicely said Glenn.
by rachelloveswade on October 10th, 2008
Hey, TM. I just discovered these comments, so let’s go back to your statement:
“I know as well as you do that it is not true that blacks can only go to heaven as slaves. The
church finally turned its position around and that is a good thing. However, Joseph Smith
HIMSELF had a black woman sealed to him as a servant. So at one time this WAS the practice.”
—You.
Now let’s look at my statement:
“The Church’s position on blacks has never changed.” —Me.
Clearly one of us is wrong here.
If I understand it correctly, your argument is that since Jane Elizabeth Manning was sealed to Joseph Smith as a “servant,” that must mean that the only way any Canaanite could be sealed to anyone was as a servant. My position is that Jane E. M. James’s situation was *extremely* unique, and I would think that any objective observer would recognize it as such.
Joseph and Emma offered to have Jane sealed to them as a daughter, thus adopting her out of the lineage of Canaan. Jane refused. Some fifty years later, she apparently realized her error, petitioned the First Presidency to be sealed to various people that she had never been related to at all, and finally got sealed to Joseph as “servitor” a full half-century after his death—and even that wasn’t the end of the story, since the sealing was later canceled (possibly at her own request) in 1895, then reinstated in 1902. No matter how you slice it, TM, this situation quite deftly defies any claim to normalcy.
…and for the record, I don’t appreciate the name-calling. I would have thought you above that. :-(
by the Otter on October 10th, 2008
"If I understand it correctly, your argument is that since Jane Elizabeth Manning was sealed to Joseph Smith as a “servant,” that must mean that the only way any Canaanite could be sealed to anyone was as a servant."
Well, then Wilbur, YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY! You NEVER do. I don't get you at all. You can read something and come to a conclusion that has absolutely NOTHING to do with what you just read. It's like you only see every 5th word or something, or every third sentence. That's the only way I can explain the complete absence of reading comprehension that you display. The conclusion you just came to doesn't follow from what I said. It is equivalent to this:
THEICIDAL SAYS:"I like purple crayons"
later, THEICIDAL SAYS:"Johnny had a purple crayon"
WILBUR SAYS: "Ah-ha, so you ADMIT you are a purple crayon. Now I will write 700 words on how that is not possible!"
by TheicidalManiac on October 10th, 2008
First of all, TM, I think you’ve got me confused. I’m not Wilbur and neither he nor Curtis seems to have been around here, for quite a while.
Secondly, I openly admitted that I may have misunderstood, but at the moment I can’t see any other way to interpret your statement besides the way I outlined in my last post. Your statement was: “at one time it WAS the practice.” If the “it” in that phrase is not sealing blacks as servants because “the only way a black person can go to heaven is as a slave” (per the original question), then I don’t know what “it” is.
I don’t know about anyone else that may be following this discussion, but I’d really appreciate it if, when I’ve openly admitted that I may not be understanding you correctly, you’d just explain what you mean instead of insulting me.
Thanks again!
by the Otter on October 10th, 2008
Wow...how the hell did that happen? LOL. seriously. LOL. Yeah dude, I've been REALLY, REEEEAAAALLLYYY short with CurtisAndWilbur r whatever his name is, because he can't bother with understanding ANYTHING, so it only takes the SLIGHTEST mistake to set me off at him. My bad.
Anyway, yes the two sentences that you were referring to were both sai by me, and they were both interpreted by you correctly, but your conclusion does not follow. I wasn't using Jane's case as a proof, I was throwing it in as an aside.
Sorry about my mistake, really.
by TheicidalManiac on October 10th, 2008
No worries. I’ve done the same thing, once or twice. Brain fart! ;-)
by the Otter on October 10th, 2008
Bill Maher is the joke. That a-hole needs his ass kicked. He is as anti-American as they come. If George Washington heard Bill Maher's crap he would puke.
by Cowboy-Matter of Fact on October 11th, 2008
Agreed. The guy is a tool.
by the Otter on October 11th, 2008
Tool? Yeah, sometimes. Ass-kicked? I don't think it would help. Nevertheless, I don't think that wanting to see your country improve is un-patriotic. Criticism is not necessarily hate. However, I don't think that is a statement that will apply to his positions in his upcoming movie, "Religulous."
by TheicidalManiac on October 13th, 2008
True. I was mostly agreeing with the first sentence of The Boss’s comment, but obviously wasn’t too clear about that.
by the Otter on October 13th, 2008
Good answer, Glenn
No wonder you top-pointed on this one.
by denidowi on April 21st, 2009
Yes...no wonder Glenn gets top points on the Mormon-based questions where people who dare utter anything other than the official Utah-church version of history get trolled into oblivion. Congratulations guys! HOORAY for censorship and propaganda! Hip hip, hooray!
by TheicidalManiac on May 1st, 2009
Hey, TM. How’s it going?
by the Otter on May 3rd, 2009
Yeah, Maniac; you've fronted up and back again, Huh?
What joys are in store for all of us this time??
by denidowi on May 3rd, 2009
oh, a little of this, a little of that. It's raining in Utah, and I can't work when it rains...so here I sit.
by TheicidalManiac on May 4th, 2009
Sounds like the start of some off-color rhymes I've heard in the traps!LOL
What do you bother doing with yourself all day, Suicidal??
by denidowi on May 5th, 2009
Y am I "Suicidal?" And what do you mean what do I "bother" doing with myself? Are you suggesting that without your god my life is pointless? Anyway, we have a little window washing biz and I'm intermittently a student at USU, where my intended major is no longer offered. I'm a jack of many trades, master of none, but yeah...windows get dirty quick in the desert. Cha-ching.
.
Now that I think about it, a lot of the stuff I do at work could be considered suicidal...hm. Did you know I was a window washer.
by TheicidalManiac on May 5th, 2009
Stop being defensive by attacking, Suicidal. It's suicidal behaviourLOL!!
Lighten up; the world won't stop if your view is not engraved/incarcerated in public policyLOL!
Wot is USU??
That makes us Both 'jerks of many trades - masters of zero", Maniac.
The only thing we can do is be smart on here.
Tried to wash windows - didn't get that one off the ground ... youre certainly up on me there!
I was beginning to wonder re your verboseness whether you stayed on here forever!!
OVER...
by denidowi on May 5th, 2009
I heard if you were a mormon, you could go to the church and look for jobs that were posted. Plus there are a lot of businesses they have taken full control of (I talked with a doctor who told me about a hospital like this and a welder who told me about a "big" project they ran) so you can finally get a good (higher) paying job. But there's no way I would "swear" to keep the secrets of the church, so I'll have to remain a low-income wage earner. LOL
by Anonymous on October 14th, 2009
Discrimination in the workplace based on religion is illegal. So, if you have proof of such activities, which seems to be what you are implying with this comment, then suggest that you take it before the appropriate legal authorities.
by Glenn Blaylock on October 14th, 2009
Sorry Guys ... AB didn't post the comments I replied.
Won't do them again.
Just quick:
Surely we've had enough political and litigatory activities via dreaded Feminist Movement, without fattening courts pockets further.
Suicidal, sorry about last comment: I have NO IDEA wot I was on about re "attacking"LOL! Please acccept my apologies.
Promise I wasn't on the Crack!!LOL
USU: even forgot what that was too - i must have bin coming from another world that day XD!
Utah State.
Anony..., here in OZ we don't have job luxury sewn up for Mormons like there. Really, it's the other way around here... Many sacrifices are made for our belief here.
by denidowi on October 14th, 2009
Deni,
you just comeoff sounding like a 12 year old. I don't mind, really, when you say these things that you say. Your piss-poor attempts at...hell, I don't even know WHAT you are attempting to do here...your piss-poor attempts at speech and literacy are embarassing and frankly they make ME look better. And for the record verboseness sounds as made up as it is. Try verbosity, or my favorite logorrhea.
.
Anonymous/Glen: yes there is a job service that is administered by the LDS church (at least here in Utah there is - my mother has used it to staff her business), but I don't know if you have to actually be Mormon to use it. It wouldn't surprise me either way, however it is one of those things that non-LDS don't really hear about, so only LDS typically use it. Also, it is absolutely true that the LDS church has full control of many businesses in the area, and not JUST by influence. They actually own a shocking number of businesses AND schools. They don't publish this info anymore, but it USED TO be the case that the prophet was ALSO the CEO of all of these companies.
by TheicidalManiac on October 15th, 2009
Deni...I just read your apology...and...um, well this is awkward.
,
sorry?
by TheicidalManiac on October 15th, 2009
That's OK, Maniac ... I think I must have been coming out of Delirium or something that day: I got no idea what on earth I was talking about.
So I do apologize. Almost sounds like a case of Santa ClausLOL!
Yeah ... we don't get such services here, maniac ... as I say, we really miss out on a Great deal job-wise and business-wise here because of our belief system. For instance, we used to have a shopping centre business, but centre requirements are increasingly becoming that you must open Sundays ... then there's weekend work generally ... then there's the feminist movement within work places to deal with and its aftermath... on top of the fact that it's very hard for mean over 45 to even get work - well I'm over 55... so it's been going on a long time
BTW, there is an employment service within the Church, but it has not proven much use that I've seen - not %-wise anyway. Obviously, it will help the odd person here and there - or young people.
It can be used by both - member and non-member - virtually all services can
by denidowi on October 15th, 2009
If the non-mormons thought he was a "mormon" tool, you'd probably enjoy that. There wouldn't be any straining at gnats here.
by Anonymous on October 16th, 2009