I have heard about these supposed false prophesies from being applied to JW's with dates ranging from 1799 - 2012.
1975 seems to be the one most talked about.
What we have hear is an example of what Jesus talked about at Mt 24:48-51.
Matthew 24:48-49 But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards
2John 9 Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son
"..Watchtower 4/15/1967 Excerpt from paragraph 25 "..According to a more recent calculation of the Bible timetable, six thousand years of man’s existence will end in the latter half of the year 1975, which is well within this century. The Bible millennium is ahead of us, and, according to the count of time and the events of world history, it is approaching. It is not ending, as Roman Catholic comments on the Bible would make us believe.."
.
From paragraph 25 through the rest of the article:
25 Fifteen centuries ago the Roman Catholic “Saint” Augustine spoke of six thousand years of history and referred to the millennium as a “Sabbath,” the seventh-day rest period. But he did not hold to this. For centuries now the Bible chronology as worked out by Archbishop James Ussher has been followed by both Catholics and Protestants. This chronology reckons that the first man Adam was created in the year 4004 before Christ, and so six thousand years of human existence on earth will end before this twentieth century ends, or in 1996 C.E. According to a more recent calculation of the Bible timetable, six thousand years of man’s existence will end in the latter half of the year 1975, which is well within this century. The Bible millennium is ahead of us, and, according to the count of time and the events of world history, it is approaching. It is not ending, as Roman Catholic comments on the Bible would make us believe. In the Murphy edition of the English Douay Version of the Holy Bible, Apocalypse 20:1, 2 reads:
26 “And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.”
27 The footnote on the expression “bound him, &c.” reads: “The power of Satan has been very much limited by the passion of Christ.” Then the footnote on the expression “for a thousand years” reads: “That is, for the whole time of the New Testament: but especially from the time of the destruction of Babylon or pagan Rome, till the new efforts of Gog and Magog against the church, towards the end of the world. During which time the souls of the martyrs and saints live and reign with Christ in heaven, in the first resurrection, which is that of the soul to the life of glory; as the second resurrection will be that of the body, at the day of the general judgment.”—Baltimore (Md.) edition.
28 However, it is now more than a thousand years since “pagan Rome” gave way to papal Rome in the fifth century. Today the facts of history belie that Satan the Devil has yet been bound and cast into the abyss, as foretold in Apocalypse (Revelation) 20:3 (Dy), saying: “And he [the angel from heaven] cast him into the bottomless pit and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should no more seduce the nations, till the thousand years be finished. And after that, he must be loosed a little time.”
29 The Apocalypse or book of Revelation unmistakably lines up the battle of Armageddon as taking place before Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit or abyss. The Bible account describes Satan the Devil as having a direct part in gathering the nations to that battlefield, saying that out of the mouth of the Dragon Satan the Devil an unclean spirit comes forth and joins the unclean spirits out of the mouths of the beast and the false prophet in going to the kings of the whole earth and gathering them to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, which is to be fought at Armageddon. Now is when those three spirits of devils from those three sources are going to the earthly rulers. Now is when those rulers and their armies are on the march to Armageddon, as we have so frequently been warned by prominent men. Logically, then, the Dragon Satan the Devil could not now be bound and be in the bottomless pit unable to seduce the nations any more, if the unclean spirit out of his mouth is joining in the gathering of the earthly rulers and their armies to Armageddon.—Rev. 16:13-16, Dy.
30 No, Satan the Devil has not yet been bound and sealed up in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. The symbolic “beast” and the “false prophet” are yet on the earth. Likewise Satan the Devil is yet in the vicinity of our earth and using the “beast” and the “false prophet” as his tools to gather the earthly rulers and their armies to their destruction in the war of the great day of God the Almighty. The Apocalypse or Revelation, chapter nineteen, describes the battle of Armageddon on God’s great day, and the chapter locates it just before the binding of Satan and the casting of him into the bottomless pit or abyss. In that coming battle the “beast” and the “false prophet” are cast to their destruction in the symbolic lake of fire and brimstone; and Satan the Devil joins them there first after the thousand years of Christ’s reign over all mankind.—Rev. 19:11 to 20:3, 7-10, Dy.
31 So, then, just as the battle of Armageddon is yet future, the binding and casting of Satan into the bottomless pit is future, for these acts follow the battle of Armageddon. In view of that, the thousand-year reign of Christ must yet be future, for it follows the casting of Satan into the bottomless pit and continues during the thousand years that Satan is imprisoned in that bottomless pit or abyss. Thus again the anti-millenarian teachings of Augustine and other religious leaders of Christendom are proved to be false. We must yet have a real millennial reign of Christ. The grand fact is that it is very near, for our relief.
Comments
Amen
by Glenn Blaylock on February 20th, 2007
I don't think it's trolling because I haven't called anybody stupid or an idiot like your example, I am a religious studies major and I ask questions like these about every religion in class but there are no JWs in any of my classes and I want to know these things. If you find critical and hard hitting question inflammatory then i apologize, but people should know how to answer them. I have asked other difficult question on this site and people (i'm assuming JWs) have come back with some decent answers so maybe you should toughen up!
by noletters on February 21st, 2007
You don't know who I am or if i do or don't like JWs! Something that is bigoted is rooted in falsity and I would like for you to find one falsity in my question or where it is bigoted! Everything about my question and the changing every so many years is true and you can ask any JW about that! If you can find where I put something false in my question then I will gladly change it or even put up an apology! There is a difference between someone making a bigoted statment and someone making a statment that you find offensive. I know for a fact that what I put up is true and I want an answer from JWs on why this is so. If it is incorrect then write why it is incorrect and write what is correct! That's easy! You can give me negative points if you want to but give me negative points for putting up something that is false, not something that you don't agree with, because that is what this looks like!
by noletters on February 21st, 2007
The definition of a bigot for anyone who doesn't know is a person who is prejudice in their views and intolerant to the opinion of others. Prejudice is making a judgment from a preconceived notion that is not based on reason or experience. These defs are from askoxford.com if anyone would like to look them up! If I was intolerant to opinions I would not post a question that asks for them, and I am not prejudice because my question is not based on a preconceived notion but on fact that I know from reading things given to me by JWs. Like I said before if you can prove that my question is bigoted based upon the actual definition of a bigot then I will apologize but don't just throw out terms!
by noletters on February 21st, 2007
I am more than willing to apologize if you can prove my statment is what you say it is according to proper definition. Really I'm not above apologizing! Do what you like!
by noletters on February 21st, 2007
Thank you nevets for standing up with me against this bigot.
by Perryman on February 22nd, 2007
Get a dictionary! And excaimation points express emphasis nevets.
by noletters on March 8th, 2007
Thanks nevets. This girl is a true bigot.
The only reason that she comes here is to attack the Witnesses which she is a former member. Evidently, she was disfellowshipped for her conduct and this is how she accepted the discipline.
by Perryman on March 9th, 2007
Thank you perryman for showing that JWs must lie to get people to believe them. You preach to people on the web site who have never met a JW. But you have actually met someone who has done their homework on you and you must resort to lies to try and catch your balance. I fight lies with facts, but you fight facts with lies.I would never be a JW because I can think.You don't even know what bigot means, cause you don't use a dictionary! Nevets defends you because he is a JW or he doesn't know the lies you tell. but your answer has proven my point. While I have put up facts you have put up lies and resorted to calling me name of which you don't even know the definition. And if calling out people who tells lies makes me a bigot than so be it, but I hate people who lie like you perryman, but maybe you are just doing what you've been trained to do.
by noletters on March 10th, 2007
Perryman i've calmed down a bit since my last comment. If you don't like something i've said just prove me wrong with a quote from your books or whatever. That is a lot more convincing than trying to discredit someone with rumors. Anyway the only time that I even comment about JWs anymore is when i'm responding to you, and i've been kind of over it for a while now, but i'm addicted to responding to comments. Anyway you and nevets have fun fighting crime or whatever it is that you do!
by noletters on March 11th, 2007
I downrated this question because I feel it is an attack and unwarranted. If you do not approve of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, that is your choice, but no need to bash and wrangle like this.
by Sheriff Raff -Answerhag on March 11th, 2007
what, noletters is right, plain and simple.
by DiSTurBiA on May 19th, 2008
Again Sheriff you do the right thing, though you downrate you give reason. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, you give yours brief, to the point, no name calling. This is how the downratng should be used.
Some people are so cowardly they downrate without giving a reason which is totally meaningless.
Also, as you say they don't have to accept the beliefs of JWs, again not pushing your views just accepting those who are different.
If everyone as like you the world would be a better place.
by Anonymous on April 3rd, 2009
That is a very valid question, because many have noticed that as the decades roll by, and the generation from 1914 gets older and is pretty much dying off, and these prophesies are continually re-vised and updated it kinda' makes a serious Bible student and Christian wonder, "If the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is the only true religion and are directed by Jehovah, why don't these prophesies come true, and why do they have to readjust their thinking?" Isn't that kinda' like saying that Jehovah and the Holy Spirit were wrong and made a mistake? They will tell you that "the light gets brighter", but Dueteronomy 18:20-22 is more likely the case. Indeed, the light does get brighter for those receptive of it.
by Enlightened1 on January 22nd, 2010
my goodness, do the apostates come out of the woodwork or what?
by autumn leaves on February 22nd, 2010
Jehovah’s Witnesses or “The Watchtower” as you call them, make no prophecies.
They are simply students of God’s Word the Bible, doing their best to understand the grand prophecies that the Bible contains.
They will “keep on the watch”, as their Lord Christ Jesus commanded.
by Perryman on February 23rd, 2010
Yes, look at this user's profile, this " Enlightened1"
It is another duplicate troll drive by account set up to bash Jehovah’s Witnesses.
by Perryman on February 23rd, 2010
Perryman, like always you make no sense. If the JWs 'are simply students of God's word the Bible, doing their best to understand the grand prophecies that the Bible contain' why didn't they learn from the master teacher, Jesus? Jesus told us several times that no man knows the end time. There are signs that point to the end, but YHVH does not reveal the actual end.
Ps your are a very bitter and agressive person. please take a chill pill.
by Nabihigh on February 24th, 2010
Nabihigh. I am not bitter.
I am joyful.
I know who you are.
by Perryman on February 24th, 2010
In another thread Nabihigh attribute 6 or 7 dates to JW's, from 1799 -1975. In other threads I have seen some add 1984, 2000, and 2012 to the list about JW's. I guess the witch hunt may never stop.
There have been some mistakes but I am pretty sure that they as a group have not participated in vengeful malicious slander or in propaganda that de-humanizes others to start a war or even participate in the slaughter of others like so many others have been duped into. Nabihigh may be about 70 years behind his time as Joseph Goebbels did a pretty good job without him. Good thing that we have Jesus as our Lord and King. It appears that others would have banished the disciples for not being perfect.
(Luke 19:11) While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly.
(John 21:20-23) Upon turning about Peter saw the disciple whom Jesus used to love following, the one who at the evening meal had also leaned back upon his breast and said: “Lord, who is the one betraying you?” 21 Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, what will this [man do]?” 22 Jesus said to him: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” 23 In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?”
(Acts 1:6-7) When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction;
(1 Chronicles 17:1-4) And it came about that as soon as David had begun dwelling in his own house, David proceeded to say to Nathan the prophet: “Here I am dwelling in a house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of Jehovah is under tent cloths.” 2 Upon that Nathan said to David: “Everything that is in your heart do, for the [true] God is with you.” 3 And it came about on that night that the word of God came to Nathan, saying: 4 “Go, and you must say to David my servant, ‘This is what Jehovah has said: “It will not be you that will build me the house in which to dwell.
(1 Chronicles 17:15) According to all these words and according to all this vision was the way that Nathan spoke to David.
by Texasescimo on February 24th, 2010
As seekers of the truth we should not justify our actions by pointing to the small blunders of the early disciples. We are given their mistakes as lessons to learn. The false prophecies of The Watch Tower are far more detrimental than any blunders the early disciples make. To understand we must take a journey into the past.
The reformation period had ‘ended’ approximately 175 years earlier; the Holy Spirit was still busy helping people to break free from the clutch of the ‘mother of deception.’ The Catholic Church dominated the teaching of Christianity with their deceptions for centuries. YHVH was at work uplifting the fallen and restoring his image when the Watch Tower, ignoring the teaching of Jesus Christ, falsely heralded the end time. Many lives were disrupted by that voice from the Tower: people gave up their homes, marriages, families only to be alone and desperate after 1799 ended. Should anyone trust another voice from that Tower?
“Evildoers will be cut off, but those who wait for the Lord will inherit the land. Wait for the Lord; be strong, and let your heart take courage; yes, wait for the Lord.”
We are called to wait on the creator but did the voice from The Watch Tower wait for YHVH? Is our authority greater than Jesus’? Should we seek to know the things YHVH does not want us to know? Did the Watch Tower make a simple mistake?
“But of the day and hour no one knows not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.” – Jesus spoke these words as a man on earth. The bible tells us that Jesus will come as a thief in the night. Matthew 24:14 tells us that the end will come when the Gospel is preach as a witness to all the nations. In 1799, when the Watch Tower proclaimed the first of a series of false prophecies concerning the end time, the gospel was not preached as a witness to all nations of the earth. What the nations heard from Catholic sources was not the Gospel.
As apostles of Jesus, we should seek answers from Jesus’ teachings with the assistant of the Holy Spirit, who ‘will bring to our remembrance all that Jesus said.’ While Jesus was with the early disciples they sometimes misunderstood Jesus’ words. When Jesus spoke of the future they thought he was speaking of the present, when he spoke of things spiritual they thought he was speaking of the physical. Never are we to compare the blatant lies of the Watch Tower to the few misunderstandings of the disciples while Jesus was yet with them. The Holy Spirit should speak through us; we should be the voice of YHVH. To continue the work of Christ we have so many tools at our disposal: the teachings of the Jesus, the teachings of the Holy Spirit, and the apostolic teachings. There is no room for errors; we must not ‘lean on our own understanding.’ Let us look at some of the small blunders of the early disciples:
Luke 19:11 – while Jesus was speaking his disciples thought the kingdom of YHVH would appear immediately. If we read verse 9 we would see what lead them to think this way: “TODAY salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham” The disciples misunderstood the use of the word ‘today.’ Is this equal to what the Watch Tower have done repeatedly, starting in 1799?
by Nabihigh on February 27th, 2010
The disciples’ message to the world was truthful.
Acts 1:6-7 – the disciples wondered if Jesus was going to restore the kingdom to Israel during their time. But one great thing to bear in mind is they did deceive anyone into believing this, they went to Jesus instead. Instead of using this as an excuse for falsifying the truth; we should go to Jesus’ word for answers. This is what Jesus told them: “It is NOT for you (including me and the JWs) to know the time and the seasons which the father has put in his own authority.” With the teaching of Jesus as reference we DO NOT prescribe our own prophecies.
John 21:21-23 – the disciples misunderstood Jesus and believed that John would not die. Peter asked Jesus what would happen to John, Jesus say to him, ‘If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?’ Jesus did not give an exclusive answer to Peter’s question so the disciples assumed that Jesus is saying John will not die. It is never good to assume but is this assumption equal to the years of continuous deceptions of The Watch Tower? Jesus gave specific information concerning the prediction of the end time.
1 Chronicle 17:1-4 – David’s desire was to please YHVH. He wanted to build a house for YHVH. The prophet Nathan told David to do what is in his heart. YHVH had not yet reveal to Nathan what he purposed concerning David so Nathan told his friend to follow his heart, but when YHVH revealed to him his purpose for David, unlike the Watch tower, he believed YHVH; he echoed to David what YHVH had prescribed for him. I can’t comprehend why this story is even used to justify what the Watch Tower did.
What is the purpose of Jesus' teachings if they are not relevant to us making decisions?
by Nabihigh on February 27th, 2010
being that you do not believe in religion according to your profile, i can understand to a point why you would be negative against watchtower society. but i find it interesting that you think the reformation was a way for christians to free themselves of the catholic church. there wasn't much change in their beliefs, customs and unscriptural doctrines. though true protestantism varies, basically they teach most of what the catholic church does. not much changed back then, they just fragmented into many sections, and now there are thousands of churches that along with the catholic church make up not true christianity but christendom. there's a big difference. how is it you feel watchtower has been deceptive? when you state that you do not understand why watchtower teaches and says what they do, do you ever think it could be because you are not being allowed to understand and the problem could be with you? Jehovah has never dealt with sole individuals. history in the bible shows all of God's serveants have been for the most part of his organization. this is what david, moses, joshua, daniel, etc. had in common as for example. if you really look close at the history of watchtower without the attitude of finding fault, but what they have accomplished, no other religion can even come close to what they have done. i do not expect you to actually change your mind. i just wonder, do you only pick on this one religion to criticize? according to you, you do not believe in religion, so i can assure you if you look at what the churches of christendom as well as the other religions of the world have done throughout history, you will find horrific examples of how they have been utilized as instruments of deception to say the least.
by autumn leaves on February 27th, 2010
Unlike the ravings of this troll "nabihigh"
Jehovah's Witnesses are really concerned with walking as their leader Jesus Christ did.
Here are just three articles that show that:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20070315/article_02.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19990701/article_01.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060501/article_02.htm
by Perryman on February 27th, 2010
Jesus also said at Luke 17:37
“Where the body is, there also the eagles will be gathered together,”
by Perryman on February 27th, 2010
I just prove that the JWs on AB are not for the truth they are just defending The Watch Tower. They don't know the history of their own organization.
by Nabihigh on February 27th, 2010
Noletters: You are correct to a point, some do not know but some like Perryman and Autumn Leaves have been told the history but refuse to "hear" it. Although I suppose it is not possibe to hear the real truth when the scales are still on their eyes is it?
the facts are clear as to the many many times that JW's have predicted the end and yet it never comes and then the dates were and are changed, over and over again. You might find it interesting to read how Charles taze Russel came up with many of his prediction in his book "Thy Kingdom Come"(you can find a pdf online). You see he was facinated with the Great Pyramid of Egypt and used calculations from it to make his predictions, they are all layed out in his book. Now the JW's are trying to distance themselves from the very founder of the their organaization, is that not a little ironic? I doubt I will get a response from either fo the above mentioned because I was brought up in a Witness household but was never baptized so they regard me as an apostate and will not direct their comments to me. Keep strong in you knowledge that you are a free thinking person and that you do not have anything to worry about, because Jesus loves you.
by Abbyguy on March 1st, 2010
"Noletters" - Abbyguy - you are speaking to a long dead troll account! LOL
by Perryman on March 1st, 2010
Doesn't negate the truth of the matter though does it?
by Abbyguy on March 1st, 2010
Not to you.
Lying is a way of life for you Abby.
You'll accept lies from fellow liars that help isolate your bubble.
by Perryman on March 1st, 2010
How am I lying? What I said above about CT Russell is 100% true and completely accurate, if you think it's not then prove otherwise and stop calling me names when you don't have an arguement. Why do you hate me so much?
by Abbyguy on March 1st, 2010
Like John said:
“They went out from among us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us.”—1 John 2:19.
That describes you.
by Perryman on March 1st, 2010
perrymen, is c. t. russell the worse they can come out with? okay, we get it c.t. russell made his mistakes, and wasn't perfect. so? come up with something else more original already.
by autumn leaves on March 1st, 2010
don't you think it is funny that in order to prove your case that Jesus is not God the Watch Tower called Jehovah a liar and a fool.
wisdom is the greatest gift from YHVH. how wise are the Jws?
by Nabihigh on March 2nd, 2010
substantiate your claims. first of all you may be a mathematician, but you need lessons in english grammar and punctuation. i guess we can all claim to be genuises on this website or internet! so because i say i am a rocket scientist on my profile. i am to be believed? talk is cheap! when has watchtower said that God is a liar and a fool? tell me what am i missing? you and supporters will stoop to no level low enough to slander the witnesses, twist and distort anything we say or post. so don't just repeat what you have heard from opposers, present factual proof, since you SAY to be a mathematician, you should know better than to just believe what others tell you regarding mathematical equations. you know you need to research to make a truly intelligent conclusion.
by autumn leaves on March 2nd, 2010
What do these claims against Charles Taze Russell prove?
We know that the man made mistakes.
He celebrated Christmas and had not taken the lead on a firm stand for neutrality.
Jehovah continues to move His people forward.
by Perryman on March 2nd, 2010
CT Russell being the founder of your organization is the cornerstone in the foundation of the WTS. We know from reading the bible just how important a good strong and upright cornerstone is, Russell was none of these. Just how strong can any structure be when it is built on shaky ground? Likewise is crucial to see that Russell being of very questionable character had HUGE influence on the WTS then and does to this day. Do you think the Mormons Joseph Smith was misguided? I think we agree the answer would be a resounding yes. Does his philosophy have an effect on the Mormons today? Again, Yes.
You can distance yourselves from Russell but the fact remains that he was involved in the occult and used the pyramids to do his prophetic calculations, this is not in keeping with biblical theology of any kind, so don't you think that just maybe the whole Organization has been effected by his teachings? How many wrong prophecies has the WTS issued? As the bible states, and I paraphrase, anyone who claims to be a prophet of god but his prophecies do not come true then they are a false prophet, does the WTS fall into this category? I think so because no man knows the day nor the hour, right? So is there a possibility that your whole dogma is wrong? A resounding, YES!
by Abbyguy on March 2nd, 2010
It is a shame that some feel the need to cast stones at dead people and keep harping on the same things over and over. Some are able to move on when things become obvious such as Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny but others stubbornly hold on to them.
QUote: "don't you think it is funny that in order to prove your case that Jesus is not God the Watch Tower called Jehovah a liar and a fool." At least thats a new one. What Watchtower is that quote from?
by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010
Charles Taze Russell has been dead for 94 years, and these two losers just keep slamming the man.
Russell was just one man used by God.
Comparing Russell to Joseph Smith is ridiculous, just as comparing The Mormon’s to Jehovah’s Witnesses is ridiculous.
Two different men. Two different faiths.
by Perryman on March 2nd, 2010
I do not worship man; 'cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from YHVH.'
The Watch Tower's translation and the JWs interpretation of Proverbs 8:22 implies that Jehovah was once a stupid god.
The Watch Tower interpretation of Isaiah 44:24 would make YHVH a liar.
by Nabihigh on March 2nd, 2010
you are the one slandering Jehovah. stop hurling your blasphemous accusations and present proof, how are these scriptures misinterpreted in our translation? put your money where your mouth is. maybe you can fool those that don't know their bibles but you should know that you cannot get away with this, with the witnesses. you will get called on it,again i say give proof of your claims!
by autumn leaves on March 2nd, 2010
hello again nabi, i thought to help you, i have here a parallel bible aside from our nwt. at proverbs 8:22 the nwt (our translation says:"Jehovah himself produced me, as the begining of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.")the parallel bible containing the king james version says at proverbs 8:22
1. "the Lord possessed me in the begining of his way,before his works of old."
2.the new international version: the Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old."
3. the living bible says: "the Lord formed me in the beginning, before he created anything else."
4.the revised standard says: "the Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old."
nabby, how is the nwt saying what you claim? the main difference is that we use God's name. where is it saying what you are accusing the nwt of?
by autumn leaves on March 2nd, 2010
Proverbs 8:22 - if Jehovah had to produce wisdom that mean he was without wisdom at one point in his existence. A person without wisdom is foolish????
by Nabihigh on March 2nd, 2010
The inspired description of wisdom found in the book of Proverbs reads: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. . . . Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains . . . When he prepared the heavens I was there; . . . then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, . . . and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”
This passage cannot be speaking merely about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract. Why not? Because the wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Psalm 90:1, 2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced. It was not “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person.—Proverbs 8:1.
The book of Proverbs says that long ago wisdom was beside Jehovah, the Creator, as “a master worker.” That certainly applies to Jesus. Long before he came to earth, Jesus worked so closely with Jehovah that God’s Word says: “He is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”—Colossians 1:17; Revelation 3:14.
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was the One who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. During his prehuman existence, Jesus was God’s Word, or Spokesman. (John 1:1) He is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:24, 30) What a beautiful description of the Son of God, whose fondness for mankind moved him to give his life as a ransom in their behalf!—John 3:16.
(1 Corinthians 1:24) however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010
let someone else try tex. to interpret one clear Bible verse you don't have to use so many verses.
in response to autumn leaves: to produce something is to make it. if you notice this is talking about wisdom and understanding. if Jesus is wisdom according to your interpretation fo your book (NWT) then Jehovah was without Jesus (wisdom) at one point in his existence.
by Nabihigh on March 2nd, 2010
http://bible.cc/proverbs/8-22.htm
NLT "The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.
NIV “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,*,* before his deeds of old;
Bible in Basic English The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past.
RSV The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010
Tex this is not about what those books say; this is about logic. Was there a time when Jehovah was without wisdom? If your answer is no, that is not what the NWT is saying.... (period)
by Nabihigh on March 2nd, 2010
http://www.biblestudytools.com/proverbs/8-22-compare.html
Never without wisdom. That is why many Bible commentators recognize the one being spoken of as Jesus.
Proverbs 8:22
Bible in Basic English About BBE
The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past.
Proverbs 8:22
Complete Jewish Bible About CJB
"ADONAI made me as the beginning of his way, the first of his ancient works.
Proverbs 8:22
Good News Translation About GNT
"The Lord created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago.
Proverbs 8:22
Holman Christian Standard About CSB
The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.
Proverbs 8:22
New Century Version About NCV
"I, wisdom, was with the Lord when he began his work, long before he made anything else
Proverbs 8:22
New International Reader's Version About NIRV
"The LORD created me as the first of his works, before his acts of long ago.
Proverbs 8:22
New Living Translation About NLT
"The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.
Proverbs 8:22
New Revised Standard About NRS
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
32 “And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways. 33 Listen to discipline and become wise, and do not show any neglect. 34 Happy is the man that is listening to me by keeping awake at my doors day by day, by watching at the posts of my entrances. 35 For the one finding me will certainly find life, and gets goodwill from Jehovah. 36 But the one missing me is doing violence to his soul; all those intensely hating me are the ones that do love death.”
by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/wesleys-explanatory-notes/proverbs/proverbs-8.html
Wesley's Explanatory Notes
A recommendation of Divine wisdom, ver. 1 - 21.
The praise of the Son of God, the eternal Wisdom of the Father, ver. 22 - 31.
An exhortation to hearken to him, ver. 32 - 36.
______________________________
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/scofield-reference-notes/proverbs/proverbs-8.html
Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)
8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
The Lord possessed me
That wisdom is more than the personification of an attribute of God, or of the will of God as best for man, but is a distinct adumbration of Christ, is sure to the devout mind. Proverbs 8:22-36 ; John 1:1-3 ; Colossians 1:17 can refer to nothing less than the Eternal Son of God.
¬¬¬¬¬_____________________________________________
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/proverbs/8.html
Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
Verses 22-31 That it is an intelligent and divine person that here speaks seems very plain, and that it is not meant of a mere essential property of the divine nature, for Wisdom here has personal properties and actions; and that intelligent divine person can be no other than the Son of God himself, to whom the principal things here spoken of wisdom are attributed in other scriptures, and we must explain scripture by itself.
by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010
so Jesus was a woman when he was 'created'?
by Nabihigh on March 2nd, 2010
What goes with the context? Possessed or created? (Proverbs 8:25) "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth;
The Greek scriptures concur.
(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
(Revelation 3:14) “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
.
If you believe the Bible, I would think that you would have to believe that the firstborn of all creation was part of creation. Just like the first made of all chevrolets is still a chevrolet.
I would also think that the beginning of the creation of God was part of the creation of God. Just like the beginning of the paintings of a painter is still the painters painting.
.
Jesus also said that "I live because of the Father", Jehovah does not live because of anyone else.
(John 6:57) Just as the living Father sent me forth and
by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010
What is recorded concerning the Word in the Scriptures fits remarkably the description given at Proverbs 8:22-31. There wisdom is personified, represented as though able to speak and act. (Pr 8:1) Many professed Christian writers of the early centuries of the Common Era understood this section to refer symbolically to God’s Son in his prehuman state. In view of the texts already considered, there can be no denying that that Son was “produced” by Jehovah “as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago,” nor that the Son was “beside [Jehovah] as a master worker” during earth’s creation, as described in these verses of Proverbs. It is true that in Hebrew, which assigns gender to its nouns (as do many other languages), the word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender. This would continue to be the case even though wisdom is personified and so would not rule out wisdom’s being used figuratively to represent God’s firstborn Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” (1Jo 4:8) is also in the feminine gender but that does not make God feminine. Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo‧he′leth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.
Wisdom is manifest only by being expressed in some way. God’s own wisdom was expressed in creation (Pr 3:19, 20) but through his Son. (Compare 1Co 8:6.) So, too, God’s wise purpose involving mankind is made manifest through, and summed up in, his Son, Jesus Christ. Thus, the apostle could say that Christ represents “the power of God and the wisdom of God” and that Christ Jesus “has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom.”—1Co 1:24, 30; compare 1Co 2:7, 8; Pr 8:1, 10, 18-21.
(1Tim 1:7)
by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010
Okay let's forget CT Russell for the moment, what about Judge Rutherford claimed in the 1920's booklet "Millions Now Living Will Never Die", he declares,
"...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected... Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old." -- pages 89-90
He had Beth Sarim built for them but when they never appeared he moved in to this lavish home during the dirty thirties, everyone was starving yet he was being treated like royalty.
by Abbyguy on March 2nd, 2010
The August 15, 1968 Watchtower said this: "...we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then." page 49
Wrong again.
There are in fact so many wrong prophecies made by the WTS that I don't have the sapce to put them all down, how much more evidence is neededto show that the WTS is not from GOD but is a false prophet from Satan.
I can provide as many as you would like just tell me and I would be happy to oblige.
by Abbyguy on March 2nd, 2010
Abbyguy, why do you omit the first word and substitute a period where a question mark was? Did you do that or did the person or book that you got that from do that?
"Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth."
.
Abbyguy, weren't you yourself recently off by 3 years on a prophecy that JW's have had right for many decades?
by Texasescimo on March 2nd, 2010
KUDOS TEX!!!
by autumn leaves on March 2nd, 2010
So the translation I got is slightly different than the one you have, but it does not chaange the issue at hand. Since I am not privy to all the back dated literature in hard copy form as you obviously are I hve to rely on what i find online, so in the future when I get a quote I will cross reference to the best of my ability for accuracy. So then quit playing symantics and address the question. Is there a history of failed prophecy or not, simple question, yes or no? I say yes show me where I am wrong based on WTS history.
by Abbyguy on March 2nd, 2010
I agree with you Abbyguy. The JWs believe they are the only one who knows the truth but there is so much errors in their teaching, e.g -
they believe angels used to have babies with human being. What deception!!
by Nabihigh on March 2nd, 2010
Hey "Nabihigh"
What DOES (Isaiah 44:24)MEAN then??
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
Oh “Nabihigh” – you mean the Nephilim!
No, they are not “another “Watchtower creation” as you like to say
They were the hybrid offspring of fallen angels and human women.
Genesis Chapter 6, verses 1 through 4 mentions Nephilim.
Try opening your Bible and reading it for once BEFORE posting your garbage rants.
Angels and women having babies.
Here is a simple Wikipedia link for YOUR benefit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
ANY post here by “Nabihigh”
WHAT DECEPTION!
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
ANY post by this nabihigh, is not only DECEPTION, but this person must be high on something to believe what he does and then turn around and say the witnesses believe what only he has concocted. his complete ignorance is so apparent, willing to believe any lie against the witnesses. perrymen have you noticed that this nabi guy rhymes with another troll?
by autumn leaves on March 3rd, 2010
Angels can take the form of human but they don't become human. Can you kill an angel? It is sceintifically erronous to think man can reproduce with anything but his kind.
by Nabihigh on March 3rd, 2010
Watch what this guy just wrote:
"Angels and take the form of human but they don't become human".
What part don't you understand?
The Bible or the English language?
"Angels and take the form" WHAT??
What does that mean?
Are you struggling with those meds again Nabishigh?
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
this has just become comical!
by autumn leaves on March 3rd, 2010
Prior to Genesis 6:1-4, no mention is made of angels -not even their creation.
The sons of Adam and Eve, Seth and Cain, exhibited contrasting attitude towards YHVH; Cain possessed ungodly atributes, therefore he was not a 'son of God' He was jealous of his brother, commited murder, shew no love for the truth, tried to hide his crime from YHVH. Because of their unrighteousness Cain's offsprings were not 'sons of God'
Seth's descendants were known to be worshippers of YHVH (4:26). Enosh, who was Seth's son, 'walked with God' (5:24). The concept of 'walking with God' means to be in constant communion and favor with YHVH. Therefore, Seth's descendants were 'sons of God'
Now the Holy Spirit and I will interpret Genesis 6:1-4:
'The sons of God' (the righteous sons of Seth) saw 'the daughters of men' (the ungodly female offsprings of Cain's descendants) that they were beautiful and took them for their wives. There were giants in the land in those days.
Where does angel come in that picture?
by Nabihigh on March 3rd, 2010
So you two superior human beings don't have the courage to answer the question I posted before. The only obvious answer is that I am correct and you are wrong and that you can't find proof otherwise because you can't.
by Abbyguy on March 3rd, 2010
Yes Abby, there have been some mistakes, but not as many as opposers would like to impose. If you refer to my first post in this thread you will see that.
Nabihigh, if you use science to prove that angels cannot have babies with humans, you also have to use science to prove Angels can take the form of human. Angels are outside of the realm of scientific proof.
Nabihigh, who were the spirits in prison mentioned in 1Pet 3:19? (1Pe 3:19; 2Pe 2:4; Jude 6)
Abbyguy, do you agree with Nabihigh that the Watchtower believing that angels used to have babies with human beings is deception?
by Texasescimo on March 3rd, 2010
Jehovah's prophecies ALWAYS come true.
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
Perryman: Yes you are correct, Jehovahs always come true, but the WTS's don't and they claim to have a special knowledge so how can that be?
Tex: The problem is that as you admit mistakes have been made. Jesus told us not to predict anything because we are then considered false prophets if the prophecy doesn't come true. Right?
by Abbyguy on March 3rd, 2010
Is there a difference between keeping on the watch along with trying to interpret scriptures as opposed to just making predictions?
Quote: "So you two superior human beings don't have the courage to answer the question I posted before."
Your question had been answered before you even asked it. How about answering my questions?
Abbyguy, weren't you yourself recently off by 3 years on a prophecy that JW's have had right for many decades?
Abbyguy, do you agree with Nabihigh that the Watchtower believing that angels used to have babies with human beings is deception?
by Texasescimo on March 3rd, 2010
Abby.
I would rather be on the "inside" of the organization, than outside in the darkness like you.
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
Yes Abby how about some answers for a change!
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
How many biological sons does Satan have?
The sinning angels were cast out of heaven into the earth. The word used for 'hell is not Gehenna, but Tartarus, a Greek term used for place of furture punishment.
Satan and his hosts are in dungeons of darkness on this earth; they spiritually entrapped in pits of darkness away from the presence of YHVH's grace and glory.
by Nabihigh on March 3rd, 2010
Tex: Please refresh my memory I don't recall making a prediction? The two superior people I was refering to did not include you, sorry if it came across that way. Perryman and Autumn respond in a much different way than you do, they are always calling names using Ad Hom arguments and refuse to address the questions that I pose.
As far as agreeing with Nabihigh, NO I don't, because the bible tells us that there were Nephilim. Although he is scientific in his approach it is obvious that he knows little about the bible, and is not a believer. Regarding your question. "Is there a difference between keeping on the watch along with trying to interpret scriptures as opposed to just making predictions? Yes, in my opinion there is a HUGE difference, and the WTS has been guilty of making many prediction that have not come true.
Here are a few examples:
1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures.Watchtower, p. 106, March 1, 1923
"Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old...."
Millions now Living Will Never Die pg. 89, 90
This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct....
Watchtower July 15, 1922
The Life book: the chart beginning on page 31, shows that 6,000 years of man's existence will end in 1975.
More on this date from The Watchtower 1968 May 1 p. 271
From the autumn of 1 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1 C.E. is one year (there was no zero year). From the autumn of 1 C.E. to the autumn of 1967 is a total of 1,966 years. Adding 4,025 and 1 and 1,966, we get 5,992 years from the autumn of 4026 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1967. Thus, eight years remain to account for a full 6,000 years of the seventh day. Eight years from the autumn of 1967 would bring us to the autumn of 1975, fully 6,000 years into God's seventh day, his rest day.There are many many more. Why????
Perryman: What answers do you want?
by Abbyguy on March 3rd, 2010
Tex unlike you I don't need approval of the truth. The truth stand alone. 'Nephilim'(s) are angels' offsprings? What fairy tale. How many biological children of Satan do you know?
I am not here to prove JWs wrong; I stand for the truth.
by Nabihigh on March 3rd, 2010
What a question..by Nab is high..
"so Jesus was a woman when he was 'created'?
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
abby what questions..
lets start with:
Abbyguy, weren't you yourself recently off by 3 years on a prophecy that JW's have had right for many decades?
Abbyguy, do you agree with Nabihigh that the Watchtower believing that angels used to have babies with human beings is deception?
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
Perryman please read above, obviously you haven't.
by Abbyguy on March 3rd, 2010
Abbyguy, if you are referring to the book Life Everlasting, it is my understanding that there were comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence. Apparantly, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. As far as I have researched, there were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. As far as "6,000 years of man's existence will end in 1975", you have to look at the context. If their chronology is correct, 6000 years of man's existence did end in 1975 and 6001 years of mans existence ended in 1976. It does not say that mans existence will end in 1975 in the context that I think that you are saying. They also knew back then that mankind was going to survive armageddon so to try to quote it in such a way that mans existence was going to end is dishonest at best. You may be right about 1925, it seems like an article came out some years ago talking about that, but not positive. As far as 1914, I think that they had some wrong expectations, but that is not surprising after all of those years of apostasy, just like some of Jesus followers in the firsst century had some wrong expectations based on Jewish interpretations.
.
Abbyguy did answer my questions. The 3 years that I was referring to was about the arrival of the Messiah. I believe that you had stated the year 26. The earliest possible in relation to Tiberius would have been 28, but then a few other things don't add up so 29 is the only year that would work.
by Texasescimo on March 3rd, 2010
OK ABBYGUY,, HERE YOU go.. What lies???
To quote you
"The Life book: the chart beginning on page 31, shows that 6,000 years of man's existence will end in 1975."
ARE YOU READY>>
I HAVE the Life book in my hand now..Page 31..
Hey,, There is NO Chart!!
Hey Abbyguy - Guess what?
The book was published in 1977 !!
You still want to say that they were saying the world was going to end in 1975!! This is why I expose you for what you are, a liar.
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
Nabi is high quotes the Watchtower from 1799
"the Watch Tower have done repeatedly, starting in 1799?"
The Watchtower began publication on July 1, 1879 !!!! LOL
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
i can't believe these two clowns keep coming back for more! then and again i am not surprised. satan will never admit he's wrong. he's sinking as we speak, yet he will not let go of it. only makes himself look worse, and those he has on his side. for someone to ridicule watchtower for unsubstantiated lies and slander is truly sad.
by autumn leaves on March 3rd, 2010
i can't believe these two clowns keep coming back for more! then and again i am not surprised. satan will never admit he's wrong. he's sinking as we speak, yet he will not let go of it. only makes himself look worse, and those he has on his side. for someone to ridicule watchtower for unsubstantiated lies and slander is truly sad.
by autumn leaves on March 3rd, 2010
Hey autumn leaves..
pull the "The Life book: and look for this chart beginning on page 31,
there is no chart!!
HE says that it shows that 6,000 years of man's existence will end in 1975."
Also look at the published date, 1977 !!
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
Earlier abbyguy said " I have to rely on what i find online"
Yes, and boy did he get exposed.
The apostates and the haters put all kinds are garbage online.
To recycle that junk is stupid
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
and if others only understood the seriousness of this. i am so glad you have not let go of this thread until exposing this ag for the farce and boldface liar he is. what he does is deliberate, and only wishes to mislead others, as the false religious leaders of Jesus' time, that didn't and wouldn't accept his message and did not want others to listen either. i am looking up the book you mention, but i already knew this book was written in the late 70's. i just was not reading his garbage. truly this hateful man sickens me for what he is responsable for. he has much to answer to. it wouldn't surprise me if he actually responds to our conversation. he has no shame. i would be embarrassed by now!! Jehovah has a great debt to settle with the likes of abbyguy.
by autumn leaves on March 3rd, 2010
Regardless of the incorect ref. we all know I am right and that it happened, I will find the proof for you. Your smugness is un-becoming for a man who claims to be a man of God Perryman.
by Abbyguy on March 3rd, 2010
Too bad if what you call my "smugness" repels you abbyguy.
You slam my brothers with garbage like that, I call you out on it, expose the lie, and you just blow it off with - oh well.
You had better find something that you are good at boy.
by Perryman on March 3rd, 2010
I have cross rerefnced for accuracy so here is what you asked for, will this take the smug look off yor faces now?
Here are claims made in your own liteature that Jehovah Witnesses alone represent God as his spokesman on earth.
"The source of all true prophecy is Jehovah God. He transmits it by means of his Holy spirit or, occasionally by spirit direct angelic messengers." (Aid to Bible understanding pg.1344 1971)
"Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (W.T. pg.494 Aug. 15 1968)…Now it is firmly maintained that by the autumn of the year 1975 the battle of Armageddon will have been fought and God’s new world will have been established."
"Just think , brothers, there is only 90 months left before 6000 years of mans existence on earth is completed… the majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out." (Kingdom mystery pg.4 Mar.1968)
Yet here is an admission of being wrong 1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end" to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.'' (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968)
1972 "Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" (Watchtower April 1, 1972, p. 197)
1972 "Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them [Watchtower] as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes." (Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1972
by Abbyguy on March 3rd, 2010
As I have said, I think that they may have been anticipating something along with mankinds 6000 year anniversary so to speak. I don't know if they ever said anything definite about it or not. But it looks like another misquote on 1975. I could not find the exact phrase that you quoted nor a couple of your other suppossed quotes.
30 "Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years."
.
On your second to last quote from 1972, what are the definitions of a prophet and what does that entail?
.
As far as the last quote on 1975, I don't have a problem with it.
“The claim to infallibility does incalculable harm to the credibility of the church’s teaching authority. It unduly restricts her ability to accept new evidence and makes her the victim and champion of past errors.”—Commonweal, September 25, 1970, pp. 480, 481.
In striking contrast to the position taken by the popes is that taken by the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. They readily admit to having made mistakes as to doctrine and worship. Thus for a time, in common with Christendom, they celebrated Christmas until they learned of its pagan origin. Then again, because Romans 13:1 had been construed to mean that the governments of the world must be given unqualified obedience, the Witnesses interpreted the ‘higher powers’ or “superior authorities” there mentioned as applying to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. However, a closer examination of the context revealed that Romans 13:1 does indeed refer to the political governments of this world. But by comparing this scripture with others, such as Acts 5:29, which states, “We must obey God as ruler rather than men,” it was seen that the “subjection” mentioned at Romans 13:1 must be a relative subjection, not an unqualified one. That is, Christians are to be in subjection to the governments of this world so long as these do not ask Christians to go contrary to God’s laws. When such governments do, then the Christian must obey the higher law.—Acts 4:19, 20.
Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes. In fact, the book of Acts gives more than one example of early Christians being mistaken as to their beliefs and needing to be set straight, but they are spoken of with approval in God’s Word. All of this is in keeping with the Bible principle that “the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”—Prov. 4:18.
by Texasescimo on March 3rd, 2010
My last paragraph should have read 1972, sorry.
As far as the last quote on 1972, I don't have a problem with it.
“The claim to infallibility does incalculable harm to the credibility of the church’s teaching authority. It unduly restricts her ability to accept new evidence and makes her the victim and champion of past errors.”—Commonweal, September 25, 1970, pp. 480, 481.
In striking contrast to the position taken by the popes is that taken by the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. They readily admit to having made mistakes as to doctrine and worship. Thus for a time, in common with Christendom, they celebrated Christmas until they learned of its pagan origin. Then again, because Romans 13:1 had been construed to mean that the governments of the world must be given unqualified obedience, the Witnesses interpreted the ‘higher powers’ or “superior authorities” there mentioned as applying to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. However, a closer examination of the context revealed that Romans 13:1 does indeed refer to the political governments of this world. But by comparing this scripture with others, such as Acts 5:29, which states, “We must obey God as ruler rather than men,” it was seen that the “subjection” mentioned at Romans 13:1 must be a relative subjection, not an unqualified one. That is, Christians are to be in subjection to the governments of this world so long as these do not ask Christians to go contrary to God’s laws. When such governments do, then the Christian must obey the higher law.—Acts 4:19, 20.
Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes. In fact, the book of Acts gives more than one example of early Christians being mistaken as to their beliefs and needing to be set straight, but they are spoken of with approval in God’s Word. All of this is in keeping with the Bible principle that “the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”—Prov. 4:18.
by Texasescimo on March 3rd, 2010
The Bible says that God is a "God of order:.
It is certainly reasonable that He would only use one organization on earth today, as He did in the past with Israel.
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
HOLD ON here:
I read through that article -
"Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (W.T. pg.494 Aug. 15 1968)
TWO TIMES and I did not find the statement that says "…Now it is firmly maintained that by the autumn of the year 1975 the battle of Armageddon will have been fought and God’s new world will have been established." !! WHAT am I missing here?
How about you Tex, did you see that in the article?
That is a study article Abby - what PARAGRAPH does that statement appear in???? That is a simple question?
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
i just read through the 1968 watchtower study article that supposedly says the end would come in 1975. it says NOTHING OF A KIND!!!!!!! i challenge the troll to prove otherwise. how pathetic, to think comments on the internet should be taken seriously, and posted as fact! no serious bible student, or student of any kind does this. what the troll posted as a statement in the article, was a question, not a fact. i was very young in 1968, but i clearly remember much of what i studied at our meetings. the issue of 1975 and the end coming was more of a situation within the english congregations. being in the spanish, this was never mentioned. all i have ever heard at our meetings, conventions, including members from the governing body, is that NO ONE knows the day and time other than Jehovah and now most likely his Son, as the appointed and reigning king of the messianic kingdom. other than that, and that's that! many have convinced themselves that watchtower is not Jehovah's organization because they simply refuse to subject themselves to any authority. even though this is Jehovah's arrangement, they tell themselves and close their mind to this reasoning. no amount of explaining will matter, they wish to see only what is to their selfish advantage. if only they stopped at that point. but they also influence many to follow the same rebellious course as they have, much like the hypocritical false religious leaders of Jesus' time that refused his message and kept others as well from listening.
br. perrymen and tex, good job on the research to expose the lies launched against Jehovah's organization! in the end whenever it does come, and so much tells us it is nearer than ever. back in 1968 the prophecies still needed complete fulfillment. who can say that now? who can say that now, out of sincerity and disclaim God's Word? this system of things is falling apart. man unfortunately, still refuses to understand it is not up to any one human to "change the world." (jeremiah 10:23)these have no idea who they are coming up against.
by autumn leaves on March 4th, 2010
Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be the prophet of God at this time.1 Accordingly, they should be judged to be a true or false prophet on the basis of their prophecies:
"And you may say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)
False Prophecies of Jehovah's Witnesses
1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 4, page 621.
1899 "...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." The Time Is at Hand, page 101 (1908 edition).
1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 10000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873." The Time Is at Hand, page ii, (forward).
1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 89.
1922 - "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914." The Watchtower, 9/1/22, page 262.
1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, 4/1/23, page 106 .
1925 - "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year." The Watchtower, 1/1/25, page. 3.
1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work." The Watchtower, Sept, 1925, page 262.
1926 - "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." The Watchtower, page 232.
1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time...and they also learned to quit fixing dates." Vindication, page 338.
1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." The Watchtower, 9/15/41, page 288.
1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them." Awake, 10/8/68.
1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" The Watchtower, 8/15/68, page 494.
1. In 1972 the Jehovah's Witness Watchtower claimed to be the prophet of God:
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET" - "So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women.
by Nabihigh on March 4th, 2010
There were several post taken out of context and even with an altered word here and there. If he is not the one altering the words but only getting his info from the internet, he should at least now see the wisdom in the words at Acts 28:22. People should not be surprised that there are people that take what is said out of context as they did it to Jesus and his apostles too. We should not be surprised that there are those that were just serving for a date that felt like it was taking too long either. (Matt 24:48-51; 2Pet 3:3-4) Either way, the preaching work is going to continue. (Matt 24:14;28:19-20)
(Acts 24:5) For we have found this man a pestilent fellow and stirring up seditions among all the Jews throughout the inhabited earth and a spearhead of the sect of the Naz‧a‧renes′,
(Luke 23:2) Then they started to accuse him, saying: “This man we found subverting our nation and forbidding the paying of taxes to Caesar and saying he himself is Christ a king.”
(Acts 19:40) For we are really in danger of being charged with sedition over today’s affair, no single cause existing that will permit us to render a reason for this disorderly mob.”
(Acts 5:28-29) and said: “We positively ordered YOU not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name, and yet, look! YOU have filled Jerusalem with YOUR teaching, and YOU are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 29 In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.
(Acts 5:42) And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.
(Acts 28:22) But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.”
(1 Peter 2:12) Maintain YOUR conduct fine among the nations, that, in the thing in which they are speaking against YOU as evildoers, they may as a result of YOUR fine works of which they are eyewitnesses glorify God in the day for [his] inspection.
(John 15:19) If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.
2Peter 3:3-7) For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
5 For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.
(2Pet2:1-23)
by Texasescimo on March 4th, 2010
Perryman: I now have a full copy of the book "Life Everlasting-Freedom of the Sons of God" It's has a Red cover, copyriht 1966, 2,000,000 copies. On the very last page of chapter one is the last page of a 5 page chart, I was speaking about earlier, and guess what, I'm right. So now who is the lier? I want an appology from you, not that you are man enough to do it.
Praise Jesus for helping me vindicate His good name and show you where you are wrong, again.
by Abbyguy on March 4th, 2010
perrymen, this guy person is only trying to pick a verbal fight! is he really worth your time? i think anyone that's honest hearted can understand his lack of capacity to see the truth and or understand it. wow! he found the chart! the real point here is armageddon will come, it is a fact that many churches know about. if it didn't come in 1914, 1925, 1975, etc. it will come, and who has been sounding out the warning since the beginning of the 20th century?
by autumn leaves on March 4th, 2010
Is misinterpreting something that is in the Bible the same as prophesying as a direct revelation from Jehovah? What different roles can one have to be considered a prophet as used in the Bible?
Abbyguy, did you not say the Life book? Perryman looked on the page of the book that you said. Did you apologize for the following misquotes:
You quoted:
“The August 15, 1968 Watchtower said this: "...we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then." page 49”
This is what was actually said:
"Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth."
You quoted:
"Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (W.T. pg.494 Aug. 15 1968)…Now it is firmly maintained that by the autumn of the year 1975 the battle of Armageddon will have been fought and God’s new world will have been established."
This is what was actually said:
“Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ.”
.
What you quoted from that book was taken out of context also. Did you apologize for that?
.
by Texasescimo on March 4th, 2010
Now how about answering the charges aginst you from the above posts regarding more false prophecies?
I brought up CT Russell -n the founder of Jehovah's Witnesses - and his many errors and how he came about them, you all admit he did, that he was in error then side-stepped the issue, what issue? That he was a false prophet and he got his info from pagan sources.
If I did that you would have jumped down my throat but no, it's ok for you guys. Double standard?
Then I brought up Judge Rutherford, who claimed "1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old." He even built Beth Sarim for them. You jumped on me for a couple of mis-placed words that never changed the context at all, why? It is still a false prophecy.
Here they admit to being wrong, in 1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end" to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.'' (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968) Yet you and they say if you admit to being wrong you are nota false prophet, hogwash. Can you not see the deception in this statment?
Let's see what the bible says on this subject:
Jeremiah 23:16
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD."
Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."
2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."
2 Corinthians 11:13
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ."
As we obey the command not to be gullible, we need to "test the spirits" (1 Jn. 4:1) so that we won't be deceived, we will have to carefully evaluate teachers and ministries by the Scriptures, which are always final authority (2 Tim. 3:16, 17).
by Abbyguy on March 4th, 2010
Autumn Leaves: You show your true colors, youn don't care that the WTS was wrong and that they are biblicaly considered false prophets you only care that it will happen sometime in the future. On that point I agree, it will happen, when? No man nkow the day nor the hour of His coming, and I know of no church other than the JW's who constantly claim that they know when, is this not wrong to do? Yes!
Who has been sounding the warning and who has ALWAYS been wrong, The Jehovahs Witnesses that's who.
by Abbyguy on March 4th, 2010
Tex: I appoligize for any and all mis-quotes. The subject remains the same, I showed where the WTS was wrong and you are now sidestepping the issues. Yes I said the Life book, who knew there were 2 with a very similar name, my bad sorry perryman, please forgive me? I corrected the problem now answer the question and stop dismantling symantics.
by Abbyguy on March 4th, 2010
Hey Nabi is High.
What paragraphs are those quotes found in?
PLEASE - turn to the page of the publication and let me KNOW what paragrapgh those quotes are from.
I have a rather EXTENSIVE library here at home, as you can imagine, and I can not find a SINGLE quote in any of those publications that you just mentioned today.
You OWE us this, What paragraphs are those quotes found in?
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
AbbyGuy- Charles Taze Russel NEVER got his information from pagan sources!
This coming from someone like YOU, makes me sick!
By the way, how was Christmas for you last year?
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
Abby - I give you ONE LAST CHANCE.
I pulled the bound volume Aubgust 15 1968 WT Page 494.
You say_ "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (W.T. pg.494 Aug. 15 1968)…says -"Now it is firmly maintained that by the autumn of the year 1975 the battle of Armageddon will have been fought and God’s new world will have been established."
These words NEVER appear there!
WHAT are you quoting??
Are you getting your education off of the internet again - you idiot?
What part don't you understand/
THOSE WORDS DO NOT appear there!
So much for you doubler checking your sources you liar!
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
Quote: "If I did that you would have jumped down my throat but no, it's ok for you guys. Double standard?" Abbyguy, we don't go post all the mistakes that your religion has made all over the internet. We sure don't just take things that have been said by you or your religion and change a few words to slander you or your religion.
What double standard are you talking about? You keep saying the same things over and over I bring up one mistake that you made and we are the ones that jump on something?
.
Bottom line, misinterpreting parts of the Bible or having misunderstandings about particulars of a certain prophecy is not the same as claiming to be the originator of a prophecy.
No one is side stepping a issue. Russell and others have made mistakes but they did not claim to have the gift of prophecy.
.
I was not raised in a religious household. Most of my family are Baptist and other protestant faiths. One main difference that I see is that JW's do not stubbornly hold on to things that they find out are wrong. A couple of questions for you.
1) What religion are you?
2) As used in the Bible, when the term prophet is used, does it always mean that that person has the gift of prophecy?
3) Does the fact that the disciples in the first century had wrong expectations prove that they are false prophets?
by Texasescimo on March 4th, 2010
I think that "Abbyguys" true colors are showing.
Everything that he has posted on this website can now be called into question.
He says that he was "raised as a Jehovah's Witness".
Yet he has very little knowledge of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.
What he knows about the Witnesses, he quotes off of the internet, from hate websites.
When shown his error, he arrogantly brushes it off, or changes the subject.
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
Perryman: Why are you now following me around posting nasty remarks on other threads that have nothing to do with religion or what we are talking about at all? You call me hateful names and you want me to believe that you are full of Gods love? What fruit are you bearing sir? You will never see the light till you stand in judgement before Jesus when He shows you what a childish, hateful, nasty, old man you have shown yourself to be.
Tex:
1)I would categorize myself as a non-denominatioal Protestant Christian.
2) We can argue till the cows come home and still not agree, if you can't see that the WTS has been wrong on quite a few occasions and that is a huge deal then I am done with this thread.
3)See 2 above.
Shall we go to another thread to discuss how Jehovah of the old testament is Jesus of the new testament? I'll even prove it with your own bible. Yes Perryman I have one.
I call myself a true Jehovahs Witness because I recognise that He and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person.
by Abbyguy on March 4th, 2010
Answers the questions you liar.
You make many grand statements and you can not back them up!
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
Abbyguy - what a weak answer!
What about that "false prophecy" that you made twice about that 1968 Watchtower - that false quote that you made up!
Answer for that - Man up!
Now - before you change the subject yet again!
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
Hey Tex, being a hypocrite, are you?
Remember you trying to admonish me on the way I talk to borasalama; why don't you talk to Perryman? He seems to be so far from Christ.
by Nabihigh on March 4th, 2010
No - nabihigh - AbbyGuy NEEDS to be counseled for repeatedly lying on the website.
Did you miss something here?
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
I think that Abbyguy has violated the rules of this website through his deceptive behavior.
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
Perryman, be real for just a minute. Are you saying that there is no errors in the conclusion the early Watchtower makes re: the end time?
by Nabihigh on March 4th, 2010
perrymen, he hasn't missed anything, that's what sad about individuals such as nabi, and abby, wow they rhyme! they like the lies, they thrive on them. they rather believe the lies then face the truth, and it hurts them to the core about who we are. it is nothing but sheer spite and jealousy.
by autumn leaves on March 4th, 2010
Do not change the subject Nabi is High (again)
I challenged false statement - false quotes from publications that I OWN,
and the liars will not explain,
They would rather call me names and change the subject.
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
If someone tells lies and you (Perryman) can't speak the truth; you are just as bad a liar as that person.
I am not changing the subject, you are. You are making this out to be an attack on JWs. This is about the truth: did the Wt makes false prophecies are not?
by Nabihigh on March 4th, 2010
Nabi is High (again)
LOL go back.
I think that you missed the part (twice) where Abbyguy misrepresented what the Watchtower said by attributing false quotes to the 1968 magazine.
What part do you not understand?
I have a copy of that magazine and the quotes Abbyguy attributes to the magazine DO NOT EXIST.
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
Regarding Angels having babies with human: your referrence to Genesis 6:1-4; what does this have to do with Angels?
by Nabihigh on March 4th, 2010
FYI - I'm always high, never low. Thanks for the compliments. YHVH bless you.
by Nabihigh on March 4th, 2010
My favorite comment was when Vice-Nabihigh told me "to take a chill pill".
LoL.
you are the last person I would take advice from on taking medication,
by Perryman on March 4th, 2010
i also, read that ag said he had only studied with the witnesses. that was one time he responded to something i had said. he doesn't even remember what he writes. typical of a pathelogical liar, whose lies catch up eventually with them.
by autumn leaves on March 4th, 2010
Nabihigh, all I have seen you do is attack the beliefs of people that believe different than your own peculiar beliefs. Our first interaction was when borasaloma and myself were having a peaceful discussion although we disagreed. You came in and started berating him for no reason. Since I kindly tried to get you to soften your tone, you have been on the attack on my beliefs. I find it a little odd that you, like the Mormons don't believe in the Trinity or that the Father is the only true God. You gave a Mormon interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4 also.
If you would spend a little more time reading the Bible and a little less time trying to find ways of tearing other people down, you might just learn something.
.
You are a very proud and hateful person. You want to sit there and condemn the NWT for erroniously using the word created at Proverbs 8:22, I gave you several translations that do the same. You condemn JW's for thinking that Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22 is Jesus personified and I give you several scholars that say the same. You don't even have the humility to admit that JW's are not without warrant for their reasoning.
by Texasescimo on March 4th, 2010
I see you are a hypocrite Tex. It is ok with you for Jws to be disrespectful to other people but it is not fair for other people to give tough love. I never call any one an 'idiot.' Goes to show how far the Spirit of God is from you and your two cronies.
We all attack each other's beliefs. You are attacking my belief right now but I never call any one outside of their names, except for calling them a liar when they lie.
OH, the JWs are the 'chosen people' they can do what they want and it is ok with Jehovah; prescribe false prophecies, lie to cover them up, change the holy scrips to suit their doctrine, misinterpret scrips, disrespect people when they are cornered.
by Nabihigh on March 4th, 2010
So it seems Nabihigh, you are much more at home being a known liar, than an idiot?
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Nabihigh, don't play the "hurt puppy now".
How did you treat borasaloma?
Look at the mean and false things that you have said about Charles Taze Russell.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Contrary to some publicity made concerning "Jehovah's Witnesses," Pastor Russell is not the founder of this religious group. He has never associated with "Jehovah's Witnesses" nor did he ever claim the name. Pastor Charles T. Russell died in 1916. The "Jehovah's Witnesses" came into existence later. Associating Pastor Russell with "Jehovah's Witnesses" leaves the decidedly mistaken view that their teachings and beliefs are alike. Such is not the case.
Pastor Russell founded what has been called The Bible Student's Association. This movement had its beginning in Allegheny, Pa. and earnest Christians formed a Bible class for advanced Bible study to meet the then rising wave of infidelity. In 1879 Zion's Watch Tower was formed, later known as The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. This Society did not become the central authority for the Bible Students, for all cooperating congregations of Bible Students held strictly to congregational self-government. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society only served to coordinate the activities of the various congregations. After the death of Pastor Russell in 1916 the purpose of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society changed completely. The teachings of the six volumes of "Studies in the Scriptures" and other writings of Pastor Russell were discarded. The congregations in harmony with the Society thereafter relinquished congregational rule. The Society became the central head and authority over all congregations willing to yield their sovereignty. Basic doctrines of the Society seriously digressed from the teachings of Pastor Russell, and before long Judge Rutherford declared that those associated with The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were "Jehovah's Witnesses" on this earth. Here is where the name emerged -- certainly not in Pastor Russell's time.
BIBLE STUDENTS TODAY
After Pastor Russell's death The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society began to rise as a hierarchy over the once independent congregations. Many refused to surrender their Christian liberty and here started the work of separation. As early as 1917 this exodus from the Society began, and those who appreciated the wonderful harmony of the Bible as taught by Pastor Russell are today known as Bible Students.
DOCTRINES
The following doctrines are an example as to how Bible Students still retain the basic teachings of Pastor Russell in contrast with "Jehovah's Witnesses," who do not.
One of the main teachings of Pastor Russell was that all would be enlightened with a knowledge of God's Truth before they are placed on trial and judged for their final destiny. For the majority of mankind this would be when they are raised from the dead at the time of the general resurrection. Their final judgment would be based on their conduct while enlightened and not on their conduct while in ignorance. This teaching separated Bible Students from all other religious groups. Now it separates them from "Jehovah's Witnesses" as well.
Pastor Russell was led to believe in a future probation because millions have died and continue to die without hearing the Gospel. Of those that hear, uncertainty and confusion exists in their minds because Churchianity of today is burdened with contradictory beliefs and teachings. "Jehovah's Witnesses" see no further probation for any of the present generation who do not subscribe to their teachings - which means that a large percentage of the world's population is to perish eternally in Armageddon. In this respect their views are less generous than most established Churches. They not only see no hope for those who live today, who do not subscribe to their teachings, but they entertain no hope for a large percentage of the millions who have gone into the grave since the creation of man. For example, those of Sodom, Samaria, Gomorrah, etc., - they believe those people perished eternally, with no hope for a resurrection, while Pastor Russell pointed to the Scriptures, such as Ezek. 16:55.
by Nabihigh on March 5th, 2010
Pastor Russell taught, according to the Scriptures, that now is "the day of salvation" for those who are to be the Bride of Christ, the Little Flock; and that another day - a day of salvation is awaiting mankind in general, in the Millennial Age -"the times of restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21) This view broke with the concept of salvation current in his day. At that time nearly all evangelists taught a literal hell of torment for those who did not accept Christ in this life. They felt hell-fire threats were necessary to restrain evil and, if need be, to bring salvation by fear. Many theologians have since broadened their concept of salvation beyond this life, but "Jehovah's Witnesses" hold strongly to the position that those who reject their message are rejecting salvation. Contrary to our Lord's Word, every "Jehovah's Witness" becomes a missionary of life or death, using the fear of eternal destruction or second death, as their final appeal.
The Jewish people figure in another difference between Pastor Russell and the "Jehovah's Witnesses." After applying the Scripture, "Ye are my witnesses saith Jehovah" (Isa. 43:12) to them-selves, "Jehovah's Witnesses" declare that the Jewish people have no special role in the Divine Plan since the death of Jesus. On the contrary, Pastor Russell taught that the Jewish people and nation have a leading role in the Divine Plan for man, and accordingly during the year 1910 he spoke to vast Jewish audiences, comforting them according to the Scripture, Isa. 40:2 - "Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned; for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins." He encouraged them not to join the various churches of today but to wait for the fulfillment of the many Old Testament promises that they would be blessed as a nation. While they were yet a scattered and dispersed people, he said, upon the basis of these promises, that they would be regathered to Palestine and established as an independent nation. Time has proven this to be so. Although denied by "Jehovah's Witnesses," Bible Students today teach that the new state of Israel emerged in Divine Providence and is a precursor to the fulfillment of God's promise to that nation that, - "Lo the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land, that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it." (Jer. 30:3)
And again, Jer. 24:6, 7, says, - "I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up. And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God; for they shall return unto me with their whole heart."
And a further promise in Jer. 31:27-34 was that, - "Like as I have watched over them to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy and to afflict; so will I watch over them to build and to plant saith the Lord... and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in that day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they break . . . but this shall be the covenant that I will make... I will put my Law in their inward parts and write it in their . . . and they shall be my people . . . I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more."
From these facts it can be seen that Pastor Charles T. Russell was neither in principle nor in spirit, the founder of "Jehovah's Witnesses."
The JWS is an 'off-shoot religion' just like the Church of England is an 'off-shoot' of the Catholic Church.
by Nabihigh on March 5th, 2010
Wow, more clip in paste garbage from apostate sites.
Note their logic here.
first they slam Pastor Russell and claim that he formed all of Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs today.
A few days later they come back with - "Oh by the way Pastor Russell IS NOT the founder of the organization that you belong to"!
Talk about circular logic.
Nabi is High is caught in yet ANOTHER one of his lies.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
I am not even reading anymore of this clip and paste garbage. He will not stay on a Bible topic because he takes one scripture that by itself could be understood a couple of different ways and picks an interpretation and stubbornly holds onto it rather than see what the rest of the Bible says on a subject.
(2 Timothy 3:16-17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
Notice that is says "all scripture", not just the one scripture that can fit into your preconceived ideas.
by Texasescimo on March 5th, 2010
Exactly Tex.
I have come to the conclusion that both Abbyguy and "Nabi Is High" troll have been embarrassed so easily is that they are so eager to trash Jehovah's Witnesses that they eagerly rush to these hate websites, clip and paste the first degrading thing that they can find, and do not worry about doing and fact checking or independent research for themselves. NOOOOOO, that would be far too difficult,
NOOOOOOO, that might require honesty.
Neither of these two are serious Bible students.
That is why we have been able to fact check and expose these deceitful attempts at slandering Jehovah's Witnesses.
I showed (above) that I took the time to look up two of their (false) references and the quotes that they made did not appear in either of the publications.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Wow, ANOTHER garbage answer.
Note the lie here.
No one say Russel 'formed all of JWs belief today' Talk about self-confusion. You are just confusing your own self.
A member of the Bible Student, the Church found by Russel, wrote the above.
Perryman are you drunk on that perry you have been drinking?
by Nabihigh on March 5th, 2010
Now that you mentioned 'Bible students,' can you tell me how you and the rest of the JWs came to the conclusion that Angels used to have babies with human???
by Nabihigh on March 5th, 2010
The same way other people that study the Bible did.
Why do you make it like it is a JW only belief? Did you not read Abbyguy's comment about it?
Richard, I have a couple of questions for you.
1) Where do you get that 'the daughters of men' are the ungodly female offsprings of Cain's descendants? Under the Mosaic law covenant where they were told not to form marriage alliances with certain nations like the Canaanites, they were given specific nations not to choose wives from. They did not just say not to marry 'the daughters of men' .
2) Where in the Bible, do you get that the sons of God are Seth’s decendants? Everywhere else in the Hebrew scriptures sons of God refers to angels. I was under the impression that the revealing of the sons of God in relation to some humans was in the future, not in the past. I also thought that being sons of God had something to do with faith in Jesus.
3) Who were the spirits in prison who were disobedient in Noahs day? If you say that those spirits were men as you did under one of your other avatars please explain where Seth’s decendants were told not to marry Cain’s offspring. It is my understanding that all men had sinned through Adams transgression and there was no law against marrying daughters of certain nations prior to the Mosaic law covenant.(1Pet 3:19-20)
4) How did the angels sin and in what way did the angels not keep their original position and forsake their proper dwelling place? (2Pet 2:4;Jude 6)
(Romans 8:19) For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.
(Galatians 3:26) YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus.
(Genesis 6:4) The Neph′i•lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.
(1 Peter 3:19-20) In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.
(2 Peter 2:4-5) Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta•rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;
(Jude 6) And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.
by Texasescimo on March 5th, 2010
Perryman: You are a pathetic miserable old man that has no shred if love in you. I stand by my references, if you can't find them in the literature you have perhaps it's because your organization has changed them as well in order to support their lies and deception.
Facts are facts, the WTS made predictions that never came true I have all the evidence I need to support my conclusions. Now try debating in a Godly way please, and quit pandering to your little sycophant Autumn Leaves, who never has any input except to cheer you on.
by Abbyguy on March 5th, 2010
Nabihigh: You wasting your time here, all their arguments are political in nature because when a truth is posted they don't see it, they look for loopholes and focus on that rather than the meaning of the statements.
by Abbyguy on March 5th, 2010
Sycophant, I mean Autumn Leaves: This is what I have always maintained, I was brought up in a JW household, aunts and uncles were JW;'s as well, I never bought into it when I was young, my wife and both I studied for a couple of years later in lfe when I first was married because I it was part of my heritage. After a while I began seeing things that did not ad up so I started asking question, questions which were never answered to my satisfaction because I was told to refer to WTS literature and not study the bible myself because I would not understand it. Soon after we stopped studying and never wnet back, I became a born-again Christian in Feb 2001, praise Jesus, I am now saved.
I never lied, you never had the whole story. I pray that Jesus lifts the scales from all your eyes so ttat you may see the error of your ways and that you may humble yourself before Him, repent and accept the GIFT that He has waiting for you.
by Abbyguy on March 5th, 2010
Nabihigh -your questions are so incoherent, I can not begin to understand or respond to them! LOL
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
you only prove one thing by writing all this! ag, you are one apostate, now that you say the whole truth has come out, you are an apostate. and for this now that it is confirmed, say what you will, no matter how diabolical, and demonic your comments and statements i will never respond. i do not need your well wishes, you expect to be believed that they are posted out of heartfelt sincerity? by what you claim that you were told years ago, you showed the lack of humility by not accepting the directions of Jehovah's organization. one modern-day korah you are! what makes you think that you expound anything new christendom has been teaching now for centuries? perrymen asked you how your christmas was? why did you not answer this? you obviously have accepted all or most of christendom's pagan rooted practices? who are you to criticize the witnesses? REMOVE the rafter from your eye first!!!
by autumn leaves on March 5th, 2010
Abbyguy -if that is REALLY your back round, you hate Jehovah's Witnesses with a fervor of the strongest apostates.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Again, I say AbbyGuy says that he was "raised as a Jehovah's Witness".
Yet he has very little knowledge of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.
What he knows about the Witnesses, he quotes off of the internet, from hate websites.
When shown his error, he arrogantly brushes it off, or changes the subject. He claims that he studied with the Witnesses, yet he frequently misrepresents our views.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Nabi is High.
You ask - yet again: can you tell me how you and the rest of the JWs came to the conclusion that Angels used to have babies with human???
I ANSWERED this once:
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Here you go AGAIN Nabi is High.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim
Angels had relations with women and they had babies.
Charles Taze Russell did not make this up, and he did not invent the internet or Wikipedia either.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Abbyguy, someone on AB that is not a JW told me that you used to make sock-puppets to harass JW's. He said that he caught you answering under the wrong avatar and that later you apologized and said that you were not like that anymore. Is that true? Did you used to have sock-puppets? Do you still? The person that said it is not and does not agree with JW's at all, in fact, he does not believe in the Bible at all. The way it came up was in another conversation I said that another person was making sock-puppets to harass JW's and this person suggested that it might be you, and then gave me some of his reasons for thinking that it was you.
by Texasescimo on March 5th, 2010
Yes , autumn leaves, I found that rather cowardly,
AbbyGuy claiming at times that the Witnesses follow Pagan doctrine, while he continues to celebrate Christmas. Good point.
We won't let him off on that.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
I make it known to AB that I am a Mathematician so let’s start adding things up:
Firstly, Abbyguy grew up with JWs so it would not be strange to see that he still have some ‘fairy tale’ left in him – this is not Hollywood; this is real life.
Secondly, angels are not ‘sons of God’ – the phrase ‘sons of God’ appears five (5) times in the Old Testament and five (5) times in the New Testament. All five (5) times it appears in the New Testament it refers to people here on earth (not angels). The singular form ‘son of God’ appears forty-five (45) times in the New Testament – all in reference to Jesus except one (Luke 3:38) that refers to Adam. NO WHERE in the New Testament is ‘sons of God’ or ‘son of God’ refer angels!!! ‘Son of God’ appears once in the Old Testament (Daniel 3:25) – in reference to Jesus.
Hebrew 1:5 – ‘For to which of the ANGEL did God ever say, you are my son, today I have become your father…’
Tex, stop trying to solve a math problem with the wrong formula; it won’t work.
by Nabihigh on March 5th, 2010
Add things up then and answer my previous questions. It is also my understanding that Genesis is in the Old Testament. I know that it is hard for you, but try to stay on subject and context.
How do you figure that the angels are not sons of God?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=job1:6;38:7;psalms89:6&version=ESV;HCSB;NIV;AMP;NASB
by Texasescimo on March 5th, 2010
I totally disagree with Nabihigh's statement that
"angels are not ‘sons of God’ "
The Bible clearly shows us that
"the [heavenly] sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking,” states the Bible, “and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.” These unions were unnatural, and they produced hybrid offspring known as Nephilim. (Genesis 6:2-4) The spirit creatures who thus disobeyed God joined in Satan’s rebellion against Jehovah.
At Least nabihigh is coherent here and not spouting off in a inflammatory manner.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Genesis 6:4 – (using the NWT) “The Nephilim prove to be in the earth in those days, AND AFTER THAT, the sons of the [true] God ‘CONTINUE’ (inserted) to have relations with the daughters of men and bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.”
Your interpretation is that the Nephilim were angels' offspring – Why did the Watch Tower have to insert ‘continue’ to prove their case? Typical, isn’t it?
God destroy all mankind except Noah and his family, but yet there were Nephilim, when man regenerated, after the flood. God destroyed the antediluvians because they were unrighteous and having sex with angels, but, later, allowed the same angels to have sex with women again??? Is this typical of your god? I know a better Jehovah.
Did those women knew they were having sex with angels (‘the angels became men, didn’t they?) Your god is so unfair: he destroy the powerless human being because they have sex with his sons (‘angels’), but keep the angels alive to ‘CONTINUE’ having sex with human beings. I know a better God.
Either Jesus is a liar or your interpretation is incorrect, which is it? – ‘At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given into marriage; they will be like angels of God in heaven’ – Matthew 22:30
When you are doing Math you don't skip steps to get to the answers; we are still at Genesis.
FYI don’t let this be a competition; let’s try to learn something.
by Nabihigh on March 5th, 2010
Nabihigh -Why do you continue to attack the "Watchtower" when the source that I cited was Wikipedia???
I went to an OUTSIDE source to avoid all of this.
Why can't you address this?
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
I was addressing Tex, but why is there an inserted "[heavenly]" before "sons of God"
by Nabihigh on March 5th, 2010
perrymen as ag stated that you and i are the same, could it be that he and knobbyhigh are one and the same? that he suspects others of doing this because this is who he is and this his style? is it more than a coincidence hmmmmmmm?
by autumn leaves on March 5th, 2010
Where Nabihigh?
In the Wikipedia quote they do not make the insertion -
yet they draw the same conclusion:
Genesis Chapter 6, verses 1 through 4 mentions Nephilim:
Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Oh my! I missed AbbyGuy's rant here - did you see this!!
He said
"Perryman: You are a pathetic miserable old man that has no shred if love in you. I stand by my references, if you can't find them in the literature you have perhaps it's because your organization has changed them as well in order to support their lies and deception". WOW !! LOL
You are sick mentally!! WHAT an EGO!
You clip and paste some apostates lies (Like you have lazily been doing for years here!) I call you out twice - and prove you wrong.
You respond this way! Wow - you are such as LOSER!
You call ME an old man! What year were you born??
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Prior to Genesis 6:1-4, no mention is made of angels -not even their creation.
The sons of Adam and Eve, Seth and Cain, exhibited contrasting attitude towards YHVH; Cain possessed ungodly attributes, therefore he was not a 'son of God' He was jealous of his brother, committed murder, show no love for the truth, tried to hide his crime from YHVH. Because of their unrighteousness Cain's offspring were not 'sons of God'
Seth's descendants were known to be worshippers of YHVH (4:26). Enoch, who was Seth's son, 'walked with God' (5:24). The concept of 'walking with God' means to be in constant communion and favor with YHVH. Therefore, Seth's descendants were 'sons of God'
Now the Holy Spirit and I will interpret Genesis 6:1-4:
'The sons of God' (the righteous sons of Seth) saw 'the daughters of men' (the ungodly female offspring of Cain's descendants) that they were beautiful and took them for their wives. There were giants in the land in those days.
Where does angel come in that picture?
by Nabihigh on March 5th, 2010
Autumn Leaves;
I am sorry, I missed AbbyGuys rant where he accused you and I of "being the same"
We are - brother and sister in unity.
You have made it here Autumn Leaves. AbbyGuy fears you.
He does not like strong women.
He is a homophobe, a misogynist and a xenophobe.
That is one reason why I find it hard to believe that he was raised by Witnesses or ever studied the Bible.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Good question Nabihigh.
God created angels long before mankind’s appearance—even before the creation of planet Earth. When God “founded the earth,” says the Bible, “the morning stars [angels] joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause.” ( see Job 38:4, 7)
Since the angels are God’s creation, they are called the sons of God.
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Abbyguy is definitely not Nabihigh. Abbyguy knows much more about the Bible than Nabihigh, although our views differ.
Where does Enosh, Cain, or Seth come into the picture in Gen 6:1-4?
Where is "[heavenly]" inserted before sons of God?
.
He seems to over look what he don't comprehend so I will repost:
Add things up then and answer my previous questions. It is also my understanding that Genesis is in the Old Testament. I know that it is hard for you, but try to stay on subject and context.
How do you figure that the angels are not sons of God?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=job1:6;38:7;psalms89:6&version=ESV;HCSB;NIV;AMP;NASB
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim
.
by Texasescimo on March 5th, 2010
1) Where do you get that 'the daughters of men' are the ungodly female offsprings of Cain's descendants? Under the Mosaic law covenant where they were told not to form marriage alliances with certain nations like the Canaanites, they were given specific nations not to choose wives from. They did not just say not to marry 'the daughters of men' .
2) Where in the Bible, do you get that the sons of God are Seth’s decendants? Everywhere else in the Hebrew scriptures sons of God refers to angels. I was under the impression that the revealing of the sons of God in relation to some humans was in the future, not in the past. I also thought that being sons of God had something to do with faith in Jesus.
3) Who were the spirits in prison who were disobedient in Noahs day? If you say that those spirits were men as you did under one of your other avatars please explain where Seth’s decendants were told not to marry Cain’s offspring. It is my understanding that all men had sinned through Adams transgression and there was no law against marrying daughters of certain nations prior to the Mosaic law covenant.(1Pet 3:19-20)
4) How did the angels sin and in what way did the angels not keep their original position and forsake their proper dwelling place? (2Pet 2:4;Jude 6)
(Romans 8:19) For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.
(Galatians 3:26) YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus.
(Genesis 6:4) The Neph′i•lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.
(1 Peter 3:19-20) In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.
(2 Peter 2:4-5) Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta•rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;
(Jude 6) And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.
by Texasescimo on March 5th, 2010
2 Peter 2:4 – When Satan and one-third of the angels sinned against God, they were confined to this earth. In heaven angels are present around the throne of God; to be on earth, away from God’s presence is to be in dungeons of darkness; they are spiritually entrapped in pits of darkness away form presence of YHVH’s grace and glory. The word used for 'hell is not Gehenna, but Tartarus, a Greek term used for place of future punishment.
When Jesus approached the man possessed with demons (fallen angels) ‘they (the fallen angels) began to beg him not to order them to depart into the abyss’ – this abyss that the angels (demon) fear is the confinement of earth. If angels can be come human it would be much easier to become a human than to possess one.
“The spirit creatures who thus disobeyed God joined in Satan’s rebellion against Jehovah.” Spirit + human = hybrid human (your belief). A spirit cannot reproduce = (Jesus’ belief- Matthew 22:30) = (science - DNA?????) Do you know any of Satan’s biological sons?
The fact that the Nephilim are mentioned after the flood mean that this practice continued after the flood? ‘and also afterward’ (Genesis 6:4). If so, we would have to say that this practice did not threaten the promise of God at this time. It would intensify the importance of not intermarrying with any of the Cainites.
The expression Nephilim simply refers to the great physical stature of these human, just as the other expressions (‘mighty men,’ ‘men of renown’) refer to their reputation and military prowess. I do not think that we will find super-human creatures in Numbers 13:33, but only giants. The word Nephilim is thus defined in Numbers by Moses as referring to great physical stature. Nephilim is not a technical name given to a super-race (‘Hybrid human’). Why didn’t God destroy the ‘angels, who became human,’ in the flood? Did these ‘daughters of men’ know they were having sex with angels? Am I to believe that Jehovah destroy man, in the flood, for sins man and his 'SONS' commit?
by Nabihigh on March 6th, 2010
The unusually tall men that ten of the twelve reported as Nephilim, were not actually from the Nephilim, as reported because the Nephilim perished in the Flood. There were some large men in Canaan, as other scriptures show, but never except in this “bad report,” which was caused terror and panic among the Israelites, are they called Nephilim.—Nu 13:31-33; 14:36, 37.
(Numbers 13:32-33) And they kept on bringing forth to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying: “The land, which we passed through to spy it out, is a land that eats up its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in the midst of it are men of extraordinary size. 33 And there we saw the Neph′i•lim, the sons of A′nak, who are from the Neph′i•lim; so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same way we became in their eyes.”
It is unnatural for angels to take on human form to have sexual relations with women. That is why Jude 6 says: "And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day."
You still did not answer my questions.
Where does Enosh, Cain, or Seth come into the picture in Gen 6:1-4?
Where is "[heavenly]" inserted before sons of God?
.
He seems to over look what he don't comprehend so I will repost:
Add things up then and answer my previous questions. It is also my understanding that Genesis is in the Old Testament. I know that it is hard for you, but try to stay on subject and context.
How do you figure that the angels are not sons of God?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=job1:6;38:7;psalms89:6&version=ESV;HCSB;NIV;AMP;NASB
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim
by Texasescimo on March 6th, 2010
Comments
Amen
Report by Glenn Blaylock on February 20th, 2007
I don't think it's trolling because I haven't called anybody stupid or an idiot like your example, I am a religious studies major and I ask questions like these about every religion in class but there are no JWs in any of my classes and I want to know these things. If you find critical and hard hitting question inflammatory then i apologize, but people should know how to answer them. I have asked other difficult question on this site and people (i'm assuming JWs) have come back with some decent answers so maybe you should toughen up!
Report by noletters on February 21st, 2007
You don't know who I am or if i do or don't like JWs! Something that is bigoted is rooted in falsity and I would like for you to find one falsity in my question or where it is bigoted! Everything about my question and the changing every so many years is true and you can ask any JW about that! If you can find where I put something false in my question then I will gladly change it or even put up an apology! There is a difference between someone making a bigoted statment and someone making a statment that you find offensive. I know for a fact that what I put up is true and I want an answer from JWs on why this is so. If it is incorrect then write why it is incorrect and write what is correct! That's easy! You can give me negative points if you want to but give me negative points for putting up something that is false, not something that you don't agree with, because that is what this looks like!
Report by noletters on February 21st, 2007
The definition of a bigot for anyone who doesn't know is a person who is prejudice in their views and intolerant to the opinion of others. Prejudice is making a judgment from a preconceived notion that is not based on reason or experience. These defs are from askoxford.com if anyone would like to look them up! If I was intolerant to opinions I would not post a question that asks for them, and I am not prejudice because my question is not based on a preconceived notion but on fact that I know from reading things given to me by JWs. Like I said before if you can prove that my question is bigoted based upon the actual definition of a bigot then I will apologize but don't just throw out terms!
Report by noletters on February 21st, 2007
I am more than willing to apologize if you can prove my statment is what you say it is according to proper definition. Really I'm not above apologizing! Do what you like!
Report by noletters on February 21st, 2007
Thank you nevets for standing up with me against this bigot.
Report by Perryman on February 22nd, 2007
Get a dictionary! And excaimation points express emphasis nevets.
Report by noletters on March 8th, 2007
Thanks nevets. This girl is a true bigot.
The only reason that she comes here is to attack the Witnesses which she is a former member. Evidently, she was disfellowshipped for her conduct and this is how she accepted the discipline.
Report by Perryman on March 9th, 2007
Thank you perryman for showing that JWs must lie to get people to believe them. You preach to people on the web site who have never met a JW. But you have actually met someone who has done their homework on you and you must resort to lies to try and catch your balance. I fight lies with facts, but you fight facts with lies.I would never be a JW because I can think.You don't even know what bigot means, cause you don't use a dictionary! Nevets defends you because he is a JW or he doesn't know the lies you tell. but your answer has proven my point. While I have put up facts you have put up lies and resorted to calling me name of which you don't even know the definition. And if calling out people who tells lies makes me a bigot than so be it, but I hate people who lie like you perryman, but maybe you are just doing what you've been trained to do.
Report by noletters on March 10th, 2007
Perryman i've calmed down a bit since my last com
by Texasescimo on March 6th, 2010
'(Genesis 6:4) The Neph′i•lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.'
You have an inserted ‘continue’
"the [heavenly] sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking,” states the Bible, “and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.” These unions were unnatural, and they produced hybrid offspring known as Nephilim. (Genesis 6:2-4) The spirit creatures who thus disobeyed God joined in Satan’s rebellion against Jehovah.
At Least nabihigh is coherent here and not spouting off in a inflammatory manner.'
Report
by Perryman on March 5th, 2010
Perryman have an inserted ‘heavenly’
People falsify evidence when their case is not clear.
by Nabihigh on March 6th, 2010
Question: What is Genesis 6:1-4 talking about when it speaks of sons of God marrying daughters of men? Is it talking about humans marrying angels or of Seth's line marrying Cain's descendants?
Answer:
Genesis 6:1-4 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. (NIV)
Option #1 - Angels married humans
The term "sons of God" is used in Scriptures of both man (Romans 8:14, 19, Galatians 3:26, 1 John 3:2 KJV) and angels 38:7 (in most translations). There is no indication in the Bible that angels can have sexual relations... quite specifically God says that they do not marry (Mark 12:25, Matthew 22:37). Granted theses passages speak of heavenly angels, but it appears that they were created without the need/ability (see also Luke 20:35-36), so there is no reasonable extension to say that fallen angels somehow acquired it. You have to insert a lot of unsupported speculations into Scriptures to say that this references angels, even fallen ones.
Option #2 - Seth's line was intermarrying with Cain's line.
Because God determined that the Messiah would come through Seth's line, and Noah (the only righteous man left on earth [Genesis 6:9]) was his descendant — who God foreordained would be the one whose descendants would repopulate the earth — it could be argued that the "sons of God" were descendants in Seth's line whom were intermarrying into godless lines [i.e. of Cain]. BUT, again, some has to be read into Scriptures to get there. For example, where in the Bible were Cain's descendants explicitly banned from marrying any of Adam's other descendants? While it is not directly stated, it can be held to be implicit based on later teachings for Israel and the church. This is not as great a stretch as the first speculation about angels though. Since Cain "went out from the presence of the Lord (Genesis 4:16)," it makes sense that his offspring would be godless, not knowing the Lord. More directly "sons of God" would reference all who followed the Lord with the implication that "the daughters of men" were of those who did not. God appears to have always opposed mixed marriage (see 2 Corinthians 6:14, Deuteronomy 7:3-4, 1 Kings 11:1, Ezra 9:1-2) and it would be no surprise that consequences would result from them [Genesis 1:3-4].
by Nabihigh on March 7th, 2010
Option #3 - Marrying too many wives.
An often unconsidered third option exists for this passage. It can be directly understood that because man was living so long, they were taking multitudes of women as wives — note the plural! Here it is expressing God's displeasure over his people taking multiple "daughters" as wives, ignoring His expressed desire and intent for marriage (Genesis 2:24). Therefore God was now limiting their life span to 120 years (Genesis 6:2). This is the most direct sense of the passage, without reading in extra speculations. Proverbs 29:16 says "When the wicked increase, transgression increases" (NASU). Simply put, God was then limiting how many transgressions could occur by limiting the number of wives and offspring. Imagine how many kids you could have with multiple wives in 900 years or so!
Apart from other clarifying texts, some Bible passages are occasionally more difficult to understand. Adding extra-biblical speculation to those texts is dangerous and, in effect, is adding to Scriptures. As with the second option above, wherein an appeal is made to implicit teachings of Scriptures, this must be acknowledged. Preferable to all implicit interpretation, or at least complimentary to it, any direct sense of the passage should be a primary foundation of our understanding. Beware of adding to Scriptures by speculations.
AS followers of Christ we should lean on Christ words and stop speculating. First you imply that Jehovah was once without wisdom; now you are implying that he is a liar.
by Nabihigh on March 7th, 2010
if you are writing this for the beneift of those that have carried on this thread, speaking for myself save your energy. i am not even reading your written expressed attacks against our beliefs. you will never convince me to believe otherwise, so aren't you just a bit bored now? i can't stop yawning. show yourself a true christian by respecting our bliefs. and go have a nice life of what is left of this system of things. bye forever.
by autumn leaves on March 7th, 2010
if you are writing this for the beneift of those that have carried on this thread, speaking for myself save your energy. i am not even reading your written expressed attacks against our beliefs. you will never convince me to believe otherwise, so aren't you just a bit bored now? i can't stop yawning. show yourself a true christian by respecting our bliefs. and go have a nice life of what is left of this system of things. bye forever.
by autumn leaves on March 7th, 2010
if you are writing this for the beneift of those that have carried on this thread, speaking for myself save your energy. i am not even reading your written expressed attacks against our beliefs. you will never convince me to believe otherwise, so aren't you just a bit bored now? i can't stop yawning. show yourself a true christian by respecting our bliefs. and go have a nice life of what is left of this system of things. bye forever.
by autumn leaves on March 7th, 2010
if you are writing this for the beneift of those that have carried on this thread, speaking for myself save your energy. i am not even reading your written expressed attacks against our beliefs. you will never convince me to believe otherwise, so aren't you just a bit bored now? i can't stop yawning. show yourself a true christian by respecting our bliefs. and go have a nice life of what is left of this system of things. bye forever.
by autumn leaves on March 7th, 2010
autumn leaves, this is not about me this is about the word of Jesus = the word Jehovah (Luke 20:35-36).
You have chosen man's speculations above jehovah's word.
Jehovah's blessings to you and yours.
by Nabihigh on March 7th, 2010
To clarify:
Certain Bible translations adjust the location of the phrase “and also after that,” placing it near the beginning of verse 4, thus identifying the Nephilim with the “mighty ones,” the gib·bo·rim′, mentioned in the latter part of the verse. For example: “In those days, as well as afterward, there were giants [Heb., han·nephi·lim′] on the earth, who were born to the sons of the gods whenever they had intercourse with the daughters of men; these were the heroes [Heb., hag·gib·bo·rim′] who were men of note in days of old.”—Ge 6:4, AT; see also Mo, NIV, and TEV.
The Greek Septuagint also suggests that both the “Nephilim” and “mighty ones” are identical by using the same word gi′gan·tes (giants) to translate both expressions.
Reviewing the account, we see that verses 1 to 3 tell of “the sons of the true God” taking wives and of Jehovah’s statement that he was going to end his patience with men after 120 years. Verse 4 then speaks of the Nephilim proving to be in the earth “in those days,” evidently the days when Jehovah made the statement. Then it shows that this situation continued “after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men,” and describes in more detail the results of the union of “the sons of the true God” with women.
by Perryman on March 7th, 2010
Perryman, thanks for speaking the truth - as shown in your first paragraph.
Who is this autumn leaves, is he/she for real?
by Nabihigh on March 7th, 2010
You are welcome Nabihigh.
Yes she is real, and she has been around for some time too.
by Perryman on March 8th, 2010
Nabihigh, are you also Crome9? We are having the same discussion about Nephilim here: http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/8753470
by Texasescimo on March 19th, 2010