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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 25th, 2009

Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here

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Mormons: This statement from Joseph Smith has always puzzled me, "A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge..." (History of the Church, 5:588) What does it mean?

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  • by the Otter on April 26th, 2009

    the Otter

    First of all, let’s put this in a little more context:

       “As far as we degenerate from God, we descend to the devil and lose knowledge,
        and without knowledge we cannot be saved….

       “A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get
        knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other
        world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power
        than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us,
        and give us knowledge of the things of God” (HC 5:588).

    So let’s establish first what President Smith is *not* saying. I think we need to recognize that he is certainly not talking about salvation from physical death—which is a free gift to all, through resurrection—but rather from spiritual death. While Latter-day Saints do tend to use the term “salvation” to describe the former and “exaltation” to describe the latter, it is certainly not improper to describe salvation from spiritual death as “salvation.”

    That having been established, what constitutes salvation from spiritual death? Obviously, complete salvation therefrom would include dwelling in God’s presence, i.e. salvation in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Since no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God (see Moses 6:57), we must first be completely without sin. This entails casting one’s sins wholly and completely upon the Lord Jesus Christ, thus activating his Atonement in our lives and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. However, it also entails a cessation of sin thereafter. If we return to our sins, we’ll also have to return to our Savior—again—that His blood might atone for our new sins, as well. And while the Atonement of Christ is an absolutely amazing gift that we can never afford to forget, His ultimate goal is that each of us eventually stand on his or her own two feet, so to speak. Until that time, we *won’t* have power over those “evil spirits [that] have more knowledge.”

    Isaiah 1:16-20 comes to mind, here:

       “Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine
        eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed,
        judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

       “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as
        scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they
        shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
        But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth
        of the LORD hath spoken it.”

    Obviously the context of this passage is dealing with effectual idol worship, but the principles certainly apply. The central point of this passage is that Atonement, prefigured in v.18. However, in true chiastic structure, this central point follows the commandment in v.17, that we *learn* to do well; and is itself followed by the prophecy in v.19-20, that we must be “willing and obedient.” Christ is obviously ready, willing, and able to pay the price for any and all of our sins, but His ultimate goal is that we each get to the point where we never commit them, in the first place. As we learn to overcome each of those sins that so easily beset us (see Hebrews 12:1), those sins can be wiped out by the Atonement and replaced with that much greater measure of perfection. Ultimately, this learning to overcome sin—coupled with the Atonement of Christ—allows us to become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect (see Matthew 5:48).

    So to summarize a somewhat longwinded answer: as we learn the laws of God, we learn what constitutes perfection, from an academic standpoint. As we obey the laws of God (which obedience is obviously predicated on learning said laws), we learn how to achieve perfection, from a practical standpoint. It’s one thing to say it; it’s another to actually *do* it. And by actually learning to do it, we gain that knowledge and power that allow us to not “be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world.”

    Now… are there also other, perhaps more mundane things that we’ll need to learn, in the Eternities that lie beyond? Indubitably. However, as these things would necessarily postdate our completely overcoming sin, I don’t think them pertinent to the original statement.

    Make sense?

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  • by Happy-Dance on April 26th, 2009

    Happy-Dance

    It is through faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved..Knowledge and learning the bible is very important..but the most ignorant amongst us that dies accepting Christ as his savior and that he shed his blood for us is saved.

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  • by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 26th, 2009

    Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here

    OK everyone, here is the FULL sermon - maybe this will be of some value in clarifying this intriguing, and very popular, Joseph Smith quote:

    "Sunday, April 10.--I preached in the Grove, and pronounced a curse upon all adulterers, and fornicators, and unvirtuous persons, and those who have made use of my name to carry on their iniquitous designs.

    [The following brief synopsis of the Prophet's remarks is from the journal of Elder Wilford Woodruff:]
    page 588

    Synopsis of Remarks of the Prophet--Reproof of all Wickedness.

    Joseph the Seer arose in the power of God; reproved and rebuked wickedness before the people, in the name of the Lord God. He wished to say a few words to suit the condition of the general mass, and then said: I shall speak with authority of the Priesthood in the name of the Lord God, which shall prove a savor of life unto life, or of death unto death. Notwithstanding this congregation profess to be Saints, yet I stand in the midst of all [kinds of] characters and classes of men. If you wish to go where God is, you must be like God, or possess the principles which God possesses, for if we are not drawing towards God in principle, we are going from Him and drawing towards the devil. Yes, I am standing in the midst of all kinds of people.

    Search your hearts, and see if you are like God. I have searched mine, and feel to repent of all my sins.

    We have thieves among us, adulterers, liars, hypocrites. If God should speak from heaven, he would command you not to steal, not to commit adultery, not to covet, nor deceive, but be faithful over a few things. As far as we degenerate from God, we descend to the devil and lose knowledge, and without knowledge we cannot be saved, and while our hearts are filled with evil, and we are studying evil, there is no room in our hearts for good, or studying good. Is not God good? Then you be good; if He is faithful, then you be faithful. Add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, and seek for every good thing.

    The Church must be cleansed, and I proclaim against all iniquity. A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God.

    What is the reason that the Priests of the day do not get revelation? They ask only to consume it upon their lust. Their hearts are corrupt, and they cloak their iniquity by saying there are no more revelations. But if any revelations are given of God, they are universally opposed by the priests and Christendom at large; for they reveal their wickedness and abominations.

    Many other remarks of interest were made."

    (History of the Church, Volume 4, p. 588)
    http://www.kristus.dk/jkk/text.php?id=90183

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  • by Doc on April 19th, 2012

    Doc

    Does it mean that Knowledge saves?
    Any writings that would indicate Joseph Smith was saved?

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  • by Bridget_D8547 on March 11th, 2011

    Bridget_D8547

    He meant that you have to have a firm understanding that salvation comes through Christ our Lord and God, and that we need to take the testimony of the Holy Spirit over the ruminations of man.

    Unfortunately, you'll find that quite a few Mormons in today's church do not heed the warning. They will hear some new thing and run after it without even stopping to pray about it. They remind me of the Athenians. [Acts 17:21] They want to tell or to hear some new thing. Do they bother to check and see if it's scriptural? No. Therefore, you'll find Mormons who think you can't pray to the Lord, even though clearly that disagrees with scripture, including the Book of Mormon. [3 Nephi 19:26] You'll also find Mormons who deny that Jesus Christ is the Most High God, even the Great I AM, even though the Lord told that outright to Joseph Smith. [D&C 29:1]

    If you point out to a Mormon who is scripturally illiterate that he is out of line with the word of God, he'll often fall back on some saying about revelation superseding scripture. Really? It's been my experience that revelation agrees with scripture. Always. For the Lord is the same and he changes not. [Mormon 9:9]

    When faced with the truth in the scriptures, Mormons who follow after vain and false doctrines will claim you can't be a Mormon yourself if you point out their fallacies. They close their ears and harden their heart despite the fact that the scriptures are open and clear about the truth: Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, even the Most High.

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