I have often heard Muslims say that to properly appreciate the Koran, you need to read it in the original Arabic.How can modern Arabic speaking Musims do this?Surely, Arabic has changed greatly in 1400 years & is unintelligible to modern Arabic speakers?

Comments

Comments

• About 25% of it is unintelligible even to Islamic scholars. There is no body of literature surrounding the Quran that helps scholars understand it. It is a lone work. Unlike the Bible, which was written in languages that were spoken by the people they were addressed to.

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  by singwell-is off researching a lot on April 15th, 2009

• 25% isn't bad for 1400 years. That's just a bit of interpretation.
   
  As for the Bible, I repeat few Christians speak or read its original languages. Therefore it is provable that they are reading at least a second interpretation of what was originally meant. Logically several interpretations deep, seeing as much of it was transferred by word of mouth before being inscribed.

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  by Baccduckus is a Carbonproduct on April 15th, 2009

• 25% is appalling. The amount of unknown words in Classical Hebrew and Koine Greek is negligible, due to the continued use of these languages over long periods of time, and the vast wealth of supporting literature (eg many of the Dead Sea and Masada Scrolls were sectarian works, which provide a back up for the Biblical texts, linguistically. Also Canaanite was very closely related. Koine was the language of the Greek diaspora and the Roman Empire until the 2nd century AD, when Latin took over. All educated people used it, and everything from literature to shop tallies survives in it.
  I read Koine Greek to some degree. Even my daughter did a year of it at school. Koine is still a used language, in the liturgy of the Greek Orthodox church. Quranic Arabic is not used,except in prayer calls. That 25% of a book that forms the thought processes of 1 billion people is unintelligible is a worry. This is what has led to the variant views on jihad, pedophilia etc

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  by singwell-is off researching a lot on April 15th, 2009

• I am a linguist, as you can tell. I have worked in languages that are no longer spoken, and still managed to translate to a high degree of accuracy, because of being able to compare the text to other similar ones. This cannot be done for the Quran.

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  by singwell-is off researching a lot on April 15th, 2009

• Excellent points. You've done more homework here than I, I must admit.
   
  The idea still remains that it is all interpretations of translations. Human nature's tendency to eventually corrupt anything is what leads to the variance of views between different Muslims. How would you explain the countless examples of Christianity being used to convince people to do evil things?
  I don't really want an answer, I'm not looking for a theological discussion. I used the Bible as it's easy to relate to for most of the people who would use a question like this one in an attempt to discredit Islam.

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  by Baccduckus is a Carbonproduct on April 15th, 2009

• I'm not talking about interpretation. I am talking about translation. The New Testament can be easily translated into another language because of the great knowledge of Koine Greek. The Quran cannot be translated because up to 25% of it is nowadays unintelligible even to experts. There is no body of supporting literature to help iron out this immense problem. So what do the Quranic scholars do? They say: we cannot translate it because it is the language of Allah. In other words, they couch their inability to be able to translate their holy book in terms of "we are not allowed to do it" ie they lie to their followers.
  Jews and Christians, by contrast, know they are getting a very good translation of their holy book, with very few debatable words, and that the ability to translate the Bible is actually getting easier with the discovery of more and more texts in Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine.

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  by singwell-is off researching a lot on April 16th, 2009

• You must admit that translation requires interpretation. You cannot translate one language word for word into another, you must translate the idea of what's being said. Therefore if it's not being read in its original language it's being read through someone else's understanding of it.
   
  As for your assumption of why they don't translate it, I won't argue, I have no evidence to the contrary, but it sounds like it comes from a bias more than the evidence you have either.

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  by Baccduckus is a Carbonproduct on April 17th, 2009

• On the contrary, I have dealt with Muslims for over 30 years. I do know something of the Quran. And as for translation: no, you cannot do things word for word, but for many things translation is not a difficult process.
  The Koine Greek for Mark 1:1 is 1αρχη του ευαγγελιου ιησου χριστου
  It translates into English (the) beginning ofthe good-news (of) Jesus Christ...into Indonesian Permulaan berita-baik Yesus Keristus...into Italian il principio dell'evangelo di Gesu' Cristo
  Most of the New testament is pretty easy to get a straight translation from one language to another. The thing you might miss out on is certain tenses (aorist or present continuous, being one), and on certain word plays (which can be explained in notes), but otherwise it is not a difficult language to translate from, because it is so well known. Same with Hebrew. Apart from some animal names, some jewel names and some place names, Hebrew has been used consistently for 4000 years, both in the Jewish and Christian

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  by singwell-is off researching a lot on April 17th, 2009

• communities (albeit in the Christian communities only by scholars, but in the middle ages and reformation there were many who were fluent in it), so translation from it is relatively easy.
  Quranic Arabic, however, was never a spoken language, and the knowledge of it has never been wide, despite the claims of Quranic scholars.
  BTW did you know that most of the Tudors (Henry VIII and his children, Lady Jane Grey etc,) plus people like Sir Thomas MOore, and his daughter, could speak fluent Koine?

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  by singwell-is off researching a lot on April 17th, 2009

• I am clearly outmatched in my experience here. I thank you for giving me much to consider and new points to discover.
   
  I still believe your view is more about bias than evidence, but I could be wrong. I work a great deal over the weekend so I will respond with what I find in a few days.
  I thank you for an intelligent and non-combative conversation. I truly wish more people, Muslim, Christian, atheist, whatever could discuss as we are now.

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  by Baccduckus is a Carbonproduct on April 17th, 2009

Comments

• but the difference is: Christians have the Bible translated into their own languages so they CAN understand it. There is no official translation of the Quran into any language.

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  by singwell-is off researching a lot on April 15th, 2009

• Taco, you've been on this for well over a year and yet you still say "probably". Are you deliberately remaining ignorant for a reason or are you just lazy?

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  by Ecclesiastes on May 22nd, 2010

• No official translation. But there are some pretty good translations of the Quran.

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  by Shaun_D on October 22nd, 2010

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• Yes, but you can get modern English translations of Old English works such as Beowulf.
  Some Arabic speaking Muslims say that a translated Koran is not a true Koran.I am wondering if modern Arabic Korans are actually translations from 7th Century Arabic.

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  by Dr Jones on April 15th, 2009

• It is supposed to be. Just like the bible is supposed to be. Neither are, but that doesn't matter to their followers.

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  by ConservativelyLiberal on April 15th, 2009

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• All languages change with time.
  
  Modern English speakers can read 400 year old Shakespeare plays with a little difficulty
  
  If you go back 600 years to Geoffrey Chaucer , you can just about make out some words and phrases with great difficulty.
  
  I recently saw a copy of the Epic of Beowulf written in English in the year AD1048, but I could not understand it.
  
  The same is true for all languages.

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  by Dr Jones on July 15th, 2009

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• I used to work with Egyptians. They said that they could understand the Arabic of Arabia, Syria, Iraq and Jordan, but that they had great difficulty understaning people further West such as Algerians and Morroccans.

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  by Dr Jones on July 15th, 2009