LdS, my RLDS friend tells me that Joseph Smith III was the rightful heir to his Father's office(s). And by not later ceding the Presidency to JSIII (and by sanctioning polygamy) Brigham Young lead the Utah LdS Church into apostasy. Why is this wrong?

Thank you for the LdS Church dogma version of reality.
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However the historical record tells quite a difference tale indeed.
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Here's the "Cliff's Notes" version courtesy of WikiPedia:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_crisis_(Latter_Day_Saints)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineal_Succession_(Mormonism)
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And these editorial-style articles are also relevant to the discussion:
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http://www.mrm.org/nepotism
http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/history/succession_crisis.htm

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 12th, 2009

The policy for selecting a new president is for the 12 to seek the Lord in prayer, asking his will until they are agreed upon his answer.
I find it entirely natural that God would have his next prophet in the second most significant position in the Church as president of the Quorum of the 12.
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Your "historical record" reflect the uncertainties of men prior to that direction being given from God.
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The rest of your confusion is due to your Outside view of how God does things based on your assumption that God is not actually involved.

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by edndori on April 12th, 2009

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LOL. There's only one response to THAT!
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Oh brother!
(with accompanying head shake)
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Now how about a RATIONAL historically accurate answer instead of yet more irrational, meta-physical dogma?
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 12th, 2009

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LOL. There's only one response to THAT!
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Oh brother!
(with accompanying head shake)
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You cannot RATIONALLY discuss such questions as long as you refuse to consider the possibility that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are real, and do indeed communicate with men.
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>irrational, meta-physical dogma?<
Churlish insults won't convince anyone.
They only demonstrate your blind spots.

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by edndori on April 12th, 2009

>one piece of personal evidence that has always kept me believing that Brigham Young was the true prophet is the fact that he was the only one to continue baptism for the dead and to continue the temple ceremonies, both instituted by Joseph Smith<
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Well you're part right and part wrong. This is wrong:
"he was the only one to continue ... continue the temple ceremonies"
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In fact, the Community of Christ to this day continued the Kirtland Temple Endowments but in a modified form:
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"The Kirtland Temple endowment ceremonies were patterned after Old Testament sacerdotal practices. They consisted of preparatory washings, administered in private homes, in which men washed and purified their bodies with water and alcohol. After this, they gathered in the temple where they were anointed with specially consecrated oil and with blessings pronounced upon their heads by Smith and other church leaders...

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 10th, 2009

...The men's anointings were sealed with uplifted hands. Following these ceremonies many men reported participating in extraordinary spiritual experiences, such as seeing visions, speaking prophecies or receiving revelations. The culmination of the endowment was a solemn assembly, held on March 30, in which the men partook of the Sacrament and then washed each other's feet. Those present spent the rest of the day and night prophesying, speaking in tongues, testifying and exhorting each other.[18] To those present it was a "day of Pentecost." Indeed, Smith told the solemn assembly that they could now "go forth and build up the kingdom of God"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_(Latter_Day_Saints)#The_1836_Kirtland_Endowment
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However, like I said, these days it's in a modified form.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 10th, 2009

And this is right:
"...he was the only one to continue baptism for the dead..."
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That is correct they do NOT Baptize for the Dead as this was not a part of the Kirtland Temple rites. The reasons are interesting:
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"One of the teachings of Joseph Smith that has caused much controversy in the RLDS church is that of baptism for the dead. This teaching was brought forth between 1841 and 1842 in certain alleged letters of Joseph, and were printed in the Times and Seasons before his death. Baptism for the dead is the practice of baptizing a person in proxy for someone deceased who has received the gospel in the prison-house, thus fulfilling in their behalf the requirement of baptism to enter the Kingdom.
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These letters were never accepted into the Doctrine and Covenants during Joseph's life, but they were incorporated later. Some believe that the letters containing the doctrine of baptism for the dead were forgeries and not written by Joseph at all.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 10th, 2009

However, this is difficult to establish since they were printed during Joseph's lifetime when he had the opportunity to refute them.
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In the Reorganized Church (RLDS), baptism for the dead has never been practiced, although the principle was debated at length. Finally the sections (RDC 107, 109, and 110) were removed to the Appendix by RLDS General Conference action in 1970. These sections are still retained in the LDC as Sections 124, 127, and 128.
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The official RLDS position on this is that "we know of no temple building, except as edifices wherein to worship God, and no endowment except the endowment of the Holy Spirit of the kind experienced by the early saints on Pentecost Day." And also, "that 'baptism for the dead' belongs to those local questions of which the body has said by resolution: 'That the commandments of a local character, given to the first organization of the church, are binding on the Reorganization only so far as they are either reiterated or referred to as ...

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 10th, 2009

...by commandments to this church.' And that principle has neither been reiterated nor referred to as a commandment" (April 9, 1886; Conference Resolution 308, paragraphs 2, 3).
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For more discussion on the history and scriptures regarding baptism for the dead, see the tract Baptism for the Dead, by Russell F. Ralston & Charles Hield. (http://www.centerplace.org/cplib/study/bap4dead.htm)
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Link to source = http://www.centerplace.org/library/study/dc/ldc-bapd.htm

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 10th, 2009

perhaps it is a bit controversial but i was referring to the endowment given by the Joseph Smith in the top floor of his red brick store

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by Does it matter? on April 10th, 2009

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Well that would be a primitive version the Nauvoo Endowments - which is what the LdS Church adheres to today in a modified form:
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"The larger, front area of the second floor soon became a center of activity for church leadership, quorum and council meetings, and educational activities for youth and adults... The Nauvoo Masonic Lodge met here from its beginning in 1842 until moving into its own temple on Main Street in 1844. “Endowments,” as later practiced in the Nauvoo Temple, were introduced here."
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http://www.cofchrist.org/history/RBS.asp

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 10th, 2009

yes and it was introduced by Joseph Smith and only continued by the LDS church today. that is what i was getting at. I probably wasn't clear enough.

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by Does it matter? on April 16th, 2009

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No worries man - I've got your back.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 16th, 2009

>Your friend is on shaky grounds with polygamy<
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I thought so too. However, here's how stalwart RLDS defend this stance:
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LDS Leaders Changed Teaching on Marriage
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After Joseph's death, many members of the church were led to Utah by Brigham Young. There, they changed the official teaching of the original church relating to marriage in several significant ways. These changes were in direct violation of the "Statement on Marriage" which was law to the church.
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1. They began preaching and practicing polygamy. Some church leaders, including Brigham Young, were secretly practicing polygamy years before it became official doctrine.
2. They taught "celestial marriage", which is that the bonds of marriage is for "all time and eternity", instead of ceasing at death. This is still a major doctrine today in the LDS church.
3. Part of the celestial marriage practice was "sealing" the two parties "for time and eternity"...

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 12th, 2009

... 1. Numerous women were "sealed" to Joseph Smith, Jr., even though he was already dead. These constitute a majority of the women who are claimed by the Mormon church to be "wives" of Joseph.
2. Marriage began to be practiced in secret Temple ceremonies instead of in a "public meeting". Even today only "worthy" members of the LDS church can attend an official LDS marriage ceremony.
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The basis for these changes were teachings falsely attributed to Joseph Smith, Jr. Just as his enemies outside and within the church falsely accused him of polygamy and "spiritual wifery" during his life, Brigham Young and others continued to promote these claims after Joseph's death. In 1852, Brigham Young brought forth a revelation authorizing celestial marriage and polygamy, claiming Joseph had authored it. This is now Section 132 of the LDS Doctrine and Covenants (LDC). The RLDS church rejects these claims along with the LDC Section 132.
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 12th, 2009

LDC Section 131 mentions the subject of celestial marriage, and states that this doctrine must be received for a man to enter the highest glory. This section is also rejected by the RLDS church.
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http://www.centerplace.org/library/study/dc/ldc-marr.htm

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 12th, 2009

>Brigham Young and Emma Smith had a volatile relationship, so Joseph Smith III probably learned to dislike the man. Likewise, many who followed Brigham wondered if Emma lost her status as an Elect Lady<
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Yep, that pretty sums up the conundrum that appears to continue to today.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 12th, 2009

> if those intimately involved in the Church at the time couldn't figure it out, how can we when we are so far removed? <
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Because we have the advantage of 165+ years of Historical Precedence, not to mention the fact that Brigham Young and his successors have lead the LdS Church into an apostate state relative to what Joseph Smith taught, believed, and lived.
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Clearly Brigham Young was the WRONG choice.
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Sorry.
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BTW, I never gave you points for your answer . . . better late than never eh?
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+6

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on August 18th, 2009

What about the RLDS claim that Joseph Smith gave JSIII his blessing and identified him as his successor before witnesses? Doesn't that trump Bringham Young and the LDS Church's assertions?
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"According to later reminiscences, Joseph III was blessed by his father at a special council meeting of church officials held in the second floor of the Smith family's Red Brick Store in Nauvoo. By some accounts, participants also included Hyrum Smith, John Taylor, Willard Richards, Newel K. Whitney, Reynolds Cahoon, Alpheus Cutler, Ebenezer Robinson, George J. Adams, W. W. Phelps, and John M. Bernhisel. Joseph III's father reportedly seated him in a chair and Whitney anointed his head with oil. Then the elder Smith reportedly pronounced a special blessing upon his son's head that suggested that Joseph III would succeed him as church president if he lived righteously."
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_III

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 16th, 2009