Why do feminists use the word misogynist so often?

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• That's not feminism, that's hypocrisy, darling.

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on March 31st, 2009

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• what?

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  by Ben on April 1st, 2009

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• Feminists see misogyny in things the average woman doesn't because the average woman is not anti-male.

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  by Franklin on March 31st, 2009

• Indigo - I know exactly how you feel!

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  by JenniferRuth on March 31st, 2009

• Franklin: I am not an anti-male.
  So in your opinion, someone saying that all women are sluts just because they have vaginas is not misogynist? Or that a woman shouldn't be president? I have known people who have actually said both of those things to me, in full seriousness.
  JenniferRuth: I'm glad someone does. :)

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on March 31st, 2009

• First of all, I don't know what kind of friends you have that say (quoting you), "ALL women are sluts because they have vaginas." I don't keep company with crazies like that.
   
  For every man that says that ALL women are sluts, there are probably 10 women who have said that all men are dogs, men are jerks, etc. See, it goes both ways, but feminists only see one way. If they cared about men and boys, they would be equally outraged. But, they don't and they aren't.

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  by Franklin on March 31st, 2009

• Who said they're my friends? If you don't ever encounter some sort of bullshit, you must live in a bubble. Which would explain your attitude.
  10! Hahaha. Anyway, I have never seen another feminist say such blanket statements about men. I have always stood up against blanket statements, if you didn't make stupid assumptions and actually got to know real people you wouldn't make them yourself.

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on March 31st, 2009

• You said someone said that to you, so you must have had some association with that person.
   
  I don't know you personally (obviously) except that you claim to be a feminist. I do know that the major issues that the feminist movement (feminist or feminist backed organizations) fights for and the platforms it supports are often hostile toward males.

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  by Franklin on March 31st, 2009

• Well, yes, when people are young they tend to go to school.
  I think the only people I have ever heard speak of this are people on Answerbag. All the feminists I have ever known are sex positive, open minded, interesting people -- many have boyfriends or husbands, and unlike much of the non-feminist population, they DON'T say things like, "all men are assholes" or "all men want is sex". Sure doesn't seem like man-hating behavior to me.
  Let's see, what platforms do I support:
  I am pro choice and for good availability of birth control -- that's not hostile towards males;
  I want there to be no discrimination against women in the workplace -- not hostile
  I want the negative stereotypes of women (like "all women like shoes", that sort of thing) to disappear -- not hostile
  I want it to be understood that no matter what a woman wears, no matter if she's drunk, if she says no it means no -- which, by the way, applies to men as well, since they get raped too -- not hostile.
  etc.

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on March 31st, 2009

• 1. Feminist VAWA (based on the Duluth wheel): hostile toward men.
   
  2. Feminist Equal Pay (for less work) Act. Expecting men to work longer but be paid the same: anti-male hypocrisy.
   
  3. Feminist Title IX: Only 40% (and dropping) of college graduates are males, yet feminists continue to push for women less scholarships for boys and more for girls based on Title IX making the education discrimination even worse: anti-male.
   
  4. Feminists oppose father's rights organizations: anti-male.
   
  Do you support or opposed those anti-male platforms and policies?

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  by Franklin on March 31st, 2009

• Sorry to butt in, but Franklin, your arguements are strawmen.
  
  1. VAWA is not hostile towards men - it is hostile towards men who are violent to women. If you are not one of those men, then you have very little to worry about. Why are you more concerned about yourself than the women in violent relationships?
  
  2. UK has had an equal pay act since 1970 and society has not fallen apart. I assume you are referring to the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. No part of this act expects men to work longer for less.
  
  3. It is true that less men are entering college in the US. Why do you expect feminists to be the ones fixing this? Why haven't men gotten groups together to support and empower young men? This has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with apathy.

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  by JenniferRuth on April 1st, 2009

• 4. Feminists do not oppose father's rights. If men took more interest in childcare in the first place and if society didn't ASSUME that women are the main carers, then courts would be more likely to side with men in parental custody. The work has to be done at home - if we were all less sexist and shared childcare responsibilities equally, then there would be no assumption that children would be better off with mothers rather than fathers in court. Feminists have constantly asked for fathers to be more involved with their children and campaign for extended paternity leave. Many feminists have put forward the idea of abolishing maternity and paternity leave and replacing it with parental leave. Parental leave could be from 6 months to 1 year. The mother and father could work out between them who would stay home, how long they wanted off work - they could split the leave in a way that worked best for them.
  Feminists champion men as fathers. Why don't men?

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  by JenniferRuth on April 1st, 2009

• JenniferRuth - If you read through VAWA, which is based on DULUTH, defines the abuser as male and victim as female. That's hostile, insulting, and untrue. Pro-male people are offended by that, anti-male people have no idea why anybody would have a problem with that - since they see domestic abuse as a male problem.
   
  Why do feminists cite that women work more at home, but never ever mention that men work 25% more outside the home? Why don't they complain about that disparity? Do they just not care when men are on the short end of the stick?
   
  Further, does it not stand to reason that the person who works less outside would work more at home? Moreover, are these not personal decisions that intelligent adult couples make? Who are you and who am I to tell people how to live their lives, who should do what in their own households? That's disrespectful and demeaning - as if you or I are superior and that they need our advice to live successfully.

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  by Franklin on April 1st, 2009

• The UK is the worst possible model for employment equality. Feminism has run amok in the UK creating all manner of unfair, unequal laws against men. They give women 52 weeks of paid leave for each child but only 2 weeks for the father. This enacted by the feminist "Equality Minister." Yet, they still expect those women to advance and be paid equally, just as if they continued to produce for the employer and gain experience as the fathers must. Now that they realize that employers prefer people who will actually show up to work regularly, some are now asking for changes.
   
  RE: Ledbetter. The Act does not address the amount of work a person actually does, only their job title and function. We all know that 2 employees working the "exact same job" might not work the same number of hours. However, if a woman works the typical 25% less hours in the same job as a man, she can still sue based on Ledbetter, as long as they have the same job function.

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  by Franklin on April 1st, 2009

• Hi Franklin - you know, I can see the makings of a feminist in you! You care about all the things feminists do.
  
  VAWA does define the abuser as male, but that is because in cases of domestic violence that abuser usually IS male. Which is why women need greater protection. We all hope that one day that will not be true. Most rapists are also men. Should we ignore that?
  
  Feminists cite that women do more work at home AND go to work. They would like to see men and women live more equally and share household chores and childrearing.
  
  All the stuff about maternity leave - please see the other comment that I left above (you seem to have missed it) which addresses what feminists think about parental leave. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!
  
  Ledbetter - if a woman works 25% less hours in the same job, is she getting less work done? Or is she getting the same amount done in a shorter time? If not - no case to sue. If she is - well, she should be getting paid the same.

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  by JenniferRuth on April 1st, 2009

• JenniferRuth -
  Regarding domestic violence, you have fallen for feminist anti-male propoganda, that men are abusive rapists, and women need to be protected from them. The fact is, women abuse men JUST as often (if not more often) than men. Here is a study of studies on DV from February 2009: (http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm).
  .
  Regarding compensation, you can't have it both ways. As long as women work 25% fewer hours, they will never, on average earn as much as men.
  .
  Feminists want to force families to live as they see fit. Why not let families live as THEY see fit? Feminists are wont to tell people to stay out of their uterus, how about if feminists stayed out of other people's homes? Intelligent adults can make informed choices about who does the wash vs. who works overtime. Why do feminists think they know better than informed, responsible adults? I don't think that's at all respectful.

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  by Franklin on April 1st, 2009

• So, Franklin, I've seen state-to-state organizations for men abused by women before, does that mean that they are hostile towards ALL women? Because, personally, I don't feel like an abusive woman, so I'm not offended.
  Anyway, talking with you is talking to a wall, because you ignore everything other people say and stick stubbornly to being in your imaginary world.

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on April 1st, 2009

• Indigo - The difference is those organizations don't define women as always ALWAYS abusers, unlike feminist groups which define domestic violence as something only men do.
   
  It is not my intention to offend, only to inform. As you can see, if you care to open your mind, I deal with facts and publicly available data not baseless misandristic or misogynistic stereotypes.

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  by Franklin on April 1st, 2009

• I have never seen anything on women's abuse sites -- or feminist groups -- that define men as always the abusers.
  As I said, so far what I've seen you say here is your opinions, based on stereotypes of feminists.

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on April 1st, 2009

• DULUTH, which VAWA is based on. The language exclusively defined the abuser as male and victim as female. (http://www.theduluthmodel.org/pdf/PhyVio.pdf)
   
  VAWA - obviously defines women as the victims and men as the abusers. (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:h3402enr.txt.pdf)
   
  NOW.org's website defines women as THE victims of DV (http://www.now.org/issues/violence/)
   
  I could list more but just go to any other feminist website and when they address domestic violence, never do they acknowledge that women abuse just as often as men.

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  by Franklin on April 1st, 2009

• "According to the Duluth Model, "women and children, and some men are vulnerable to violence because of their unequal social, economic, and political status in society."
  Though I must state, I have so far not found any evidence that DULUTH was founded by feminists. Not to rain on your parade or anything.
  The other two are specifically made for women.

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on April 1st, 2009

• It seems that you base your entire opinion of feminists on three anti-domestic abuse organizations. There are sites that talk specifically about feminism, you know.

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on April 1st, 2009

• You asked specifically about the domestic violence issue. I showed you VAWA, which is a feminist inspired government bill(that defines men as the a busers); I cited feministNOW's site which calls men the abusers and DULUTH, which is what VAWA is based on, which defines men as the abusers. Feminism is the common denominator.

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  by Franklin on April 1st, 2009

• When did I ask that?
  And have you not read what I said, at all? You seem to have that habit.

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on April 1st, 2009

• I'm trying to not talk down to you or make this personal, as you seem to want to do. You rejected my previous post saying"ou base your entire opinion of feminists on three anti-domestic abuse organizations." I am pointing out that they are not domestic violence organizations.

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  by Franklin on April 1st, 2009

• I'm not trying to make it personal, either.
  What are they, then? Clown car convensions?
  But you seem to be set on ignoring anything that may show you what feminism is like, so it's kind of pointless talking to you. I'm unsubscribing -- have a good day.

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  by Indigo- in the library with the revolver on April 1st, 2009

• Bottom line: there are reasons that vast majority of women refuse to be called a feminist. There are reasons that feminism is associated with hating men. A bad reputation like feminism has doesn't come out of thin air.

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  by Rich on April 1st, 2009

• Hi Franklin -
  Feminism has no anti-male propaganda. Just because some men are abusers doesn't mean they all are. But most abusers are men. Same with rapists. Do you see the difference? No-one is saying all men. If you are not an abuser or a rapist then you have nothing to be offended by.
  Secondly, because some organistations focus on the protection of women, why does this make them anti-male? There are groups advocating for the reduction of knife crime that focus on men because knife crime disproportionally affects men. Is that anti-female? I just don't think it is.
  
  I don't think you answered me about pay. Do you think pay should be based on what someone DOES or how long someone is THERE? If someone can get the work done in 2 hours that someone else can get done in 3, why should they be payed less?
  
  Feminists do want families to live as they see fit. Did you still not read my comment on parental leave? That is all about letting families live as they see fit!

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  by JenniferRuth on April 2nd, 2009

• Oh, and I also think that feminism only has a bad reputation because of male backlash. And it is only the name anyway. Scratch the surface and I have never met a woman who isn't a feminist, even if she doesn't use the term.

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  by JenniferRuth on April 2nd, 2009

• JenniferRuth - the anti-male propoganda is when feminists say things about men that aren't true, to make them look bad. For example, you state that most abusers are male when that is not true. Females abuse just as often as males, but it's acceptable and popular to abuse men. See this ABC News report and this study from the University of California for proof. (http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm) (http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=2741047&page=1)
   
  Regarding work, the only way women (on average) can get the same amount of work done as men (since they work 25% less) is if they are 25% more productive (again, on average) as men.
   
  If women and men are equally productive (which is what I believe) but men work 25% more hours, men will get 25% more work done. Therefore, until men and women work an equal number of hours in the same professions, there will (and should) always be a gap in what they get paid.

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  by Franklin on April 2nd, 2009

• When a woman says that she is not a feminist, I personally respect her enough to accept that. I don't ever assume that she is too ignorant to know what she does or doesn't believe. That's kind of insulting.

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  by Franklin on April 2nd, 2009

• Franklin, I think you are an intelligent guy, but you are kinda skimming over what I am asking.
  
  I don't think that saying some men are abusers is against all men - all men are different and I don't want to lump them into a monolithic group. Feminists do not say "all men" do anything.
  The trouble with domestic violence is that woman are far more likely to be the victims of serious assault, they are more likely to be repeatedly assaulted and they are more likely to die due to domestic violence.
  http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hors191.pdf
  I think that deserves attention. I am more worried about these women than I am about mens feelings being hurt. Colour me crazy!
  Also, I asked you: "There are groups advocating for the reduction of knife crime that focus on men because knife crime disproportionally affects men. Is that anti-female?"

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  by JenniferRuth on April 2nd, 2009

• Work - I don't believe that ANYONE is equally as productive as someone else. That is a massive generalisation on both men and women. I believe people should be paid in respect of what they produce - that goes for both men and women.
  
  You still haven't addressed my points about feminist beliefs about paternal leave.
  
  Lastly - you misread me. I didn't mean to suggest women that don't call themselves feminists are ignorant. It is just that they might reject the label while maintaining the beliefs. Sometimes, women do this because of men and sometimes they do it for other reasons - some women of colour, for example, call themselves womanists rather than feminists because they don't believe that feminism is involved enough with anti-racist work. I do claim the label feminist but I still share much in common with female friends who do not.

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  by JenniferRuth on April 2nd, 2009

• JenniferRuth - last points first. Believing in God does not make one a Catholic. Sharing a particular belief with feminists does not make one a feminist.
   
  It was the feminist "Equality Minister" that pushed the legislation through giving mothers 52 weeks but fathers only 2 weeks. Now that they realize that companies avoid employees that will take years off work paid (duh), they are changing their tune.
   
  No offense intended but I'm not sure how I could possibly make this clearer. Men and women are equally productive, in general. Men aren't better employees than women nor are women better than men. So, if women worked 25% more hours, they would get 25% more work done, in general. Likewise, since men work 25% more hours, they get 25% more work done.
   
  When referring to DV, feminist groups refer to the abusers as male and victims as female, and never the reverse, denying the fact that women physically abuse just as often.

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  by Franklin on April 2nd, 2009

• Hi Franklin -
  Yeah, but believing in God makes you a theist. Believing in woman's rights makes you a feminist in thought if not in action.
  
  As for the equality minister, feminists are not a monolithic group with a set agenda where everyone believes the exact same thing. The goal is the same - equality - but there are many disagreements with how to get there. Same for any political or cultural ideology.
  
  No offense taken, but I think you missed my point. I am fundamentally disagreeing with you that people will all do the same amount of work given the same amount of time. Gender doesn't even come into it. I am saying that I think it is ridiculous that any of us are payed for the amount of time we spend somewhere rather than the amount we get done.

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  by JenniferRuth on April 2nd, 2009

• Not focusing on male victims of domestic violence is not the same thing as saying they don't exist. The simple fact is that women face a much more serious risk from domestic violence than men do. Therefore, a lot of campaigning focuses on woman.
  Men suffer too, but why should an organisation that is focusing on one specific issue dilute the cause by paying lip service to another? Don't men deserve their own special advocacy groups? I think they do. But men are going to have to organise them and not hijack feminist messages to do so.
  
  If you are very concerned, I would start your own male advocacy group.

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  by JenniferRuth on April 2nd, 2009

• JenniferRuth - The rest of us believe in human rights, not just women's or men's rights. We don't believe it's acceptable to deny men's rights (or women's rights) or dignity being violated in the interests of the other's rights. The way feminists approach DV is to protect women at men's expense. There's no reason women can't be protected without taking the demonizing men approach.
   
  If a group of 10 million workers works 25% more than another group of 10 million workers, the group that works longer hours will accomplish more work, unless the shorter working group is innately superior. Neither men nor women are innately superior. The only difference is that men spend more time at it.

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  by Franklin on April 2nd, 2009

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• I don't get it.

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  by daisychain on April 4th, 2009

• do you know how misogynist is pronounced? it sounds like massage-anist.

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  by xxx on April 4th, 2009

• I guess this one was lost in translation for me as a Brit ;(

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  by daisychain on April 4th, 2009