Do you feel that Brigham Young make thing by recalling all the Mormons from the San Bernardino "Calif. Colony" in 1857 and why? I'm interested in having a thoughtful dialog on this MOST intriguing question.

Comments

• It's still unclear all the reasons why BY issued the recall.
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  The best documentation that we have are the letters that flew back and forth between BY and Amasa Lyman the head of the San Bernadino Colony.
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  Edward Leo Lyman (whose great grandfather was Amasa Lyman) states that Mountain Meadows hadn't occurred and Mormonism hadn't suddenly been perceived as a terrorist-type organization (in much the same way that Al-Queda was after 9-11) it's very likely that the San Bernadino saints might have ignored the recall and stayed.
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  There's proof of this because to about a month before the Mormons actually complied with the Recall Amasa Lyman was "sitting" on BY's letters commanding them back.
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  The two things that seem to have convinced Amasa to make the letters public were:
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  1) President Buchanan threatening to invade Utah.
  2) The hostile tone of Newspaper Editorials toward Mormons in the local Southern California Press.
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 5th, 2009

• Ultimately it seems that Amasa feared for the safety of the San Bernardino Saints more than anything and THAT, more than anything else, was what convinced him that they were safer in Utah than California.
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  The unfortunate thing was that San Bernadino was emerging as the power center of Southern California with the hub for the railroad running through it (it's still there BTW - right off of Interstate 10. It was also poised to emerge as the dominate agricultural, mining, and power generation center for the region.
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  Leo Lyman thinks that if the Saints hadn't obeyed the Recall Order that San Bernardino would be the dominate Southern California city rather than L.A.
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  I suspect that he's right.
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  So Mountain Meadows had many negative ripple effects long after the event - which was a real pity for the California Colonists.

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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 5th, 2009

• Given:
  1) >The hostile tone of Newspaper Editorials toward Mormons in the local Southern California Press.<
  2).>San Bernadino was emerging as the power center of Southern California with the hub for the railroad running through it<
  -------- that if the Saints hadn't obeyed the Recall Order that the two equally probable outcomes are:
  1) >San Bernardino would be the dominate Southern California city rather than L.A.
  2) San Bernadino would be the site of the biggest and bloodiest massacres in the history of the United States, dwarfing Mountain Meadows.
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  In fact, I suspect that the possibility of a city of that importance in the state being dominated by Mormons would have swung the balance in favor of slaughter.

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  by edndori on March 5th, 2009

• Again, I doubt it. If you study the histories of Nauvoo and Missouri they weren't opposed because they were different and had power, they were opposed because of their behavior. As Mormon Scholar John Farkas articulated so succinctly:
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  Mormons are quick to point to Missouri Governor Bogg's Mormon "Extermination Order" but fail to consider Sydney Rigdon's "Salt Sermon" about trampling and hanging dissenters, the role of slavery, the historical events that led to Bogg's order and the latter attempt on his life. ... They are quick to claim persecution in Nauvoo, Illinois but fail to recognize the help non-Mormons gave to the Mormons when they left Missouri and moved into the Nauvoo area, how Mormons stole from the non-Mormons, counterfeiting of money and the political and economic issues. Probably few consider that what they call persecution was punishment from the Lord (Doctrine and Covenants 101:2-7; 103:1-4: 105:2-5) Overshadowing all of these is the way frontier societies handled serious conflict.
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 5th, 2009

• Those that point to religion as the only reason for the persecution of the Mormons ignore the peaceful existence with their neighbors of the Harmonists in Pennsylvania and Indiana, the Shakers, the Wallingford Community in Connecticut and the Oneida Community in New York. Both of these last two practiced free love. Yet none of these received persecution to the degree experienced by the Mormons.
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=77131&catid=530
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  What I'm hearing in your answer is the infamous Mormon Persecution Complex that CES's "Faithful History" reinforces and fosters among the Saints. However if you look at unbiased true history you soon find that there's another side to the story that Chapel Mormons don't hear if they limit themselves to the LDS Church's biased "Faithful History."
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  In the case of San Bernardino, Mountain Meadows was what turned the tide not the behavior of the California Saints. They would have been just fine had The Mountain Meadows Massacre not happened.
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  Again, IMHO.

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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 5th, 2009

• Curious isn't it, that other groups with similar beliefs did not meet with the same level of persecution experienced by the Mormons?
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  Of course, if it IS truly God's church, naturally Satan will fight it at every turn in every possible way. And he will influence anyone he can to do the same.
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  That would explain a lot, wouldn't it?
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  By the way, what is "IMHO"?

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  by edndori on March 6th, 2009

• >Curious isn't it, that other groups with similar beliefs did not meet with the same level of persecution experienced by the Mormons?<
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  Actually not at all. There was a distinct difference between the behavior of these other Restorationist groups and the Mormons. They all claimed to have the truth and if persecution were a valid litmus test then we'd between accept David Koresh and Jim Jones as true prophets as well. In addition we'll need to add in the Baptists, the Lutherans, and, yes, the Catholics.
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  Sorry but that LDS dogma just doesn't wash.
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  If you look at the true historical record the Early Mormons reaped a lot of persecution for being isolationist, self-righteous, arrogant, and for committing petty and not-so-petty crimes in the name of "Plundering the Gentiles". Mormon Historian Roger D. Launius has written extensively on this:
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&catid=514&id=79258#79258
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  IMHO = In My Humble Opinio

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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 6th, 2009

• The saints don't claim to be perfect. They do not claim to ever have been perfect. The arrogance, self righteousness etc. were a problem among the early saints, and I'm sure were part of the problem.
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  But I don't think that was enough to explain it all.
  Satan was hard at work too.
  I DO believe that things like that were the reason God allowed them to be driven out of the places they had been promised posession of on condition of righteousness.

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  by edndori on March 6th, 2009

• >But I don't think that was enough to explain it all.
  Satan was hard at work too.<
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  Absolutely! No disagreement, in fact even Joseph Smith said this about himself and the other Early Mormons.
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  In fact, it looks like he didn't have to go much further than his younger brother William to see the devil playing someone like a puppet.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Smith_(Latter_Day_Saints)
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  I suspect that he regretted making William a Twelve up to the day that he was assassinated.

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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 6th, 2009

• You do have hopes for your own family.
  And sometimes they are not fulfilled.

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  by edndori on March 7th, 2009

• That is all too often true isn't it?

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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 7th, 2009