by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 7th, 2009

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Why doesn't the LDS Church switch from water to grape juice for sacrament? This isn't a violation of D&C 27 and grape juice has been available since 1869. In fact D&C 27:4 could be interpreted as a prophecy of this change.

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by laie_techie on February 8th, 2009
Joseph Smith Jr was procuring wine for the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper when he was warned (through revelation) that the enemies of the Church would sell him poisoned wine. The revelation continued by stating that /any/ emblems could be used to represent the Lord's flesh and blood. That was the first time water was used instead of alcohol.

When the Word of Wisdom (which expressly allows alcohol for the Sacrament) was starting to be enforced, it became standard to use water.

Water is so ingrained into our tradition that wine (or even grape juice) would call too much attention to itself; instead we need to focus on /why/ we partake of the Sacrament (Jesus' Atonement, how we can improve, etc).
Comments
- That's a really interesting take on it. It makes sense.
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  Where did you find this? I've never heard this before...
  
  "...when he was warned (through revelation) that the enemies of the Church would sell him poisoned wine..."
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  ...I don't see that in D&C 27 so I'm curious - it's interesting and I'd like to look into it.
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 9th, 2009
- It's in the section heading to D&C 27: "In preparation for a religious service at which the sacrament of bread and wine was to be administered, Joseph set out to procure wine for the occasion. He was met by a heavenly messenger and received this revelation..." Verses 3 and 4 further state to not purchase wine from our "enemies" and that we should only use wine of our own making, if we are going to use wine at all for the Sacrament.
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  The bit about the other wine being poisoned is something from a Sunday School study guide from years ago, and I can't find it to confirm the story.
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  by laie_techie on February 10th, 2009
- Well it's darn intriguing! If you find it please come back and post the citation. I wonder if this was based on an incident in Kirtland or Nauvoo or if it was merely speculative.
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  If it was historically precedented then it's worthy of further study IMO.
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 10th, 2009
- The chapter heading places it in August 1830 near Harmony, Pennsylvania.
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  by laie_techie on February 10th, 2009
- Hmmm . . . That's a good start. I'll google on and see what I find out.
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  Sweet! A new Mormon History puzzle to solve!
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  Just what the Doctor ordered!
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  ;-)
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 10th, 2009
- If it helps I remember learning the same thing in Sunday school. I was going to post almost this same answer.
  The teacher of the lesson I was in pointed out that since water is clear and odourless/basically tasteless poison would be much easier to detect, if someone slipped it in.
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  by John Cox on November 9th, 2009
- >The teacher of the lesson I was in pointed out that since water is clear and odourless/basically tasteless poison would be much easier to detect, if someone slipped it in<
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  Now THAT is golden! That's definitely going to my next White Paper!
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  Wow!
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 9th, 2009
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by Pepe Le Stink on February 7th, 2009
I never knew any church used water!
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- The LDS Church does.
  .
  See this Question: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/181871
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 7th, 2009
- (and turning away from the person who gave this excellent answer/clarifiying question and addressing anonymous cowards)
  
  Tell me drive by neggers WHAT is NOT helpful about this question?
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  It is a valid question and I gave you my full rationale for asking it.
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  If you're going to NEG at least comment too.
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 7th, 2009
- I learned something new today. Thanks
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  by Pepe Le Stink on February 7th, 2009
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by bytebear on March 3rd, 2009
Since a revelation said that it doesn't matter what is used, it seems very logical to use water. It is easily available, and doesn't stain when spilled.
Comments
- Do you think that it would be already if it varied from Ward to Ward? For example, what if Springfield, Ward #1 used grape juice and Ward #2 used water, Ward #2 used Cranberry Juice, and Ward #4 used Apple Juice, etc., etc., etc.?
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  Thoughts?
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 3rd, 2009
- It already varies from place to place. In most of the world, we use water, but in places where water is in short supply (or unfit for consumption) we use something else.
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  by laie_techie on March 3rd, 2009
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by Does it matter? on February 7th, 2009
my guess would be price and conveniance. water is readily availible at any tap and costs pennies. the same reason they generally use plain white bread and not waffers or expensive gormet breads
Comments
- That's an interesting take on it. My research yielded this:
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  "In 1833 Joseph Smith received the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom, part of which states that alcohol consumption is harmful to a person's health and well-being. Initially the Word of Wisdom was treated simply as counsel, and the early saints (including Smith himself) would still drink alcohol on occasion. During the late 1800s, church leaders slowly started to take the Word of Wisdom as a commandment...
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 7th, 2009
- This increased respect for the Word of Wisdom, combined with the scripture in Doctrine and Covenants 27: "[I]t mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the Sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory," led congregations to begin substituting water for the Sacramental wine. (Water has also been used as a symbol of Christ and his mission at various times, including Jesus's 'living water' sermon.) The practice was officially adopted church-wide in 1912...
  The Sacrament is viewed as a renewal of a member’s covenant made at baptism. According to the Sacramental prayers, a person eats and drinks in remembrance of the body and blood of Jesus, and promises always to remember Him and keep His commandments. In return the prayer promises that the participant will always have the Spirit to be with them."
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_(Mormonism)
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 7th, 2009
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by anddeb on February 7th, 2009
We use grape juice and I don't know why they do not . I can only guess that they can not afford the juice or too many people have reactions to the juice.
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by Vashtar on February 7th, 2009
Wow, I just read the Doctrine of Covenants at 500 words per minute... What was your question again?
Comments
- Why doesn't the LDS Church switch from water to grape juice for sacrament?
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 7th, 2009
- Ahh I see I guess that would be one step closer.
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  by Vashtar on February 9th, 2009
- Closer to . . . ?
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 9th, 2009
- closer to wine
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  by Vashtar on February 11th, 2009
- Yep, sure enough. We kicked this one around and around on my home board and learned a LOT! Here's the link:
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=78213&catid=4
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 12th, 2009
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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 7th, 2009
TO ELABORATE FURTHER, THE RATIONALE FOR SWITCHING FROM WATER TO GRAPE JUICE IS SIMPLE AND LOGICAL:
First we know from the historical record why this change from wine to water was originally made:

"There is evidence that Joseph Smith himself liked a nip now and then, especially at weddings. But in 1836 he acceded to the temperance preferences of his colleague Sidney Rigdon and substituted water for wine as the beverage used in the sacrament of communion. (This tradition continued even after pasteurized grape juice was invented and swept most of the Protestant marketplace.) Still, Smith's own Mansion House, which operated a hotel, maintained a fully stocked barroom, and Nauvoo also had a brewery that advertised in the church newspaper, the Nauvoo Neighbor. According to the writings of Smith's fellow prisoner John Taylor, later the church's third president, the prophet requested and drank wine at Carthage Jail the night before he was murdered in 1844."
-- Mormon America - Revised and Updated Edition: The Power and the Promise; p. 181

So while we can applaud this move toward temperance, the fact remains that Grape Juice isn't wine. In fact most alcohol abstaining churches switched from water to wine with the introduction of Welch's Grape Juice in 1869 - why the LDS Church didn't seems odd!

Further doesn't verse 4 of D&C 27 (circa August 1830, yet oddly not implemented until 1836) imply this change when it says:
"Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you..."

So, couldn't you interpret "made new" as a prophecy concerning the coming of Dr. Welch's wonderful invention of unfermented - that is "new", not aged - Grape Juice in 1869?

After all, doesn't Moro 6:5&6 say?
"And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls. And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus."

What's stopping the LDS Church from making a change that it seems could have been easily (and IMO should have been) made way back around 1869?
Comments
- FYI, I posted this question on my "home" discussion board and the discussion has been very interesting. Here's the link:
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  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&id=78213&catid=4
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 9th, 2009
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by Glenn Blaylock on February 7th, 2009
Why should we? You give various reasons why the change to water was made, but you have not really given any reasons why we should change that to grape juice.
Comments
- Since you asked - I put this same question up on my home board and addressed it there:
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  "Yes, I certainly agree that water can be a symbol for Christ however what we're supposed to be remembering in the sacrament is Christ's Sacrificial Atonement. This is quite clear from the narrative:
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 9th, 2009
- Luke 22 (New International Version):
  14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."
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  17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
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  19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
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  20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. Water is certainly "poured out" but it's not "crushed" and it's not red - symbolizing blood.
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  So while it might be fine in a pinch I think that standardizing on it is in error."
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 9th, 2009
- .
  And I think that you're challenging the change is really, really interesting.
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  If the mental profile I've developed of you is correct I'm guessing that you and your brother were "Born-Into-The-Covenant" rather than converts.
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  So you're so used to water that you don't realize that after 1869 tee-totalling Churches switches to Dr. Welch's new fangled grape juice and away from water. The first time that I saw water used in an LDS service I was stunning and a little offended (candidly).
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  The LDS Church is the only Euchrist practicing church I know of that didn't and by today's standards it seems at the minimum odd, and at the most deviate.
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 9th, 2009
- .
  And if you got into my answer I go into even more detail.
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 9th, 2009
- You are free to use what you will. However, in making a big deal about what is used, you are running into one of the problems for which Jesus condemned the Jews of his time. "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel." Matthew 23: 24 Here Jesus was condemning the scribes and Pharisees because they had be come so caught up in the letter of the law that they had lost sight of the meaning behind it. This was the point that the Lord was making when he told Joseph Smith when he said, "For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins." So, it really doesn't matter what we use as long as we keep in mind what it symbolizes. That is the important thing. Remembering the Savior and His atonement for us and...
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  by Glenn Blaylock on February 9th, 2009
- ...rededicating ourselves to following His example.
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  You wrote, “Water is certainly "poured out" but it's not "crushed" and it's not red - symbolizing blood.” Where in the verse cited does it state anything about the symbol having to be crushed. Additionally, do you use red grape juice of purple grape juice? It was my understanding that most churches that use grape juice use purple. Blood certainly is not purple. Besides, if you are so set on using something that is a close approximation of blood in appearance, then why don’t you use tomato juice? It’s the right color and it, like blood, is not transparent. So, it makes a much better representation of blood than grape juice does.
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  by Glenn Blaylock on February 9th, 2009
- Honestly, I am not trying to ridicule your beliefs here. As I wrote above, you are free to believe as you wish and I do respect the rights of all to follow the dictates of their conscience with respect to this. I am just trying to illustrate the lengths to which we could go if you really want to start arguing over the validity of what we use for the symbols in the Lord’s Supper. This, of course brings me back to my original point. Instead of worrying about what is used for the symbol, isn’t it better to put the focus on that which is being symbolized?
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  by Glenn Blaylock on February 9th, 2009
- Glenn, I must have struck a nerve to get such a strong flurry of words. You're used more reserved than this so I'm a little taken back.
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  And yes, I agree with you that one's "inner pharisee" can get triggered by this topic - I've seen it myself (read the thread over on my home board and you'll see that I've already addressed this.
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  However, I think that you're projecting. I'm not upset and I'm not being legalistic. However, I don't understand why if this is a "gnat" rather than a "camel" why you all don't just become more mainstream and less sectarian? Just make the change.
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  What could it hurt? LDS Scripture supports it. Your history supports it. And Dr. Welch made it all possible. Join us in the late 19th Century!
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  So, in the end, what's the big deal? Just make a small change and see what happens. OR try it and see what happens. If you don't like it, change back.
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  No biggy man! No biggy.
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 9th, 2009
- However, I would point out that I'm not the first to question this:
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  From the CES Manual "Teachings of the Living Prophets" section (4-4) "The Most Vital Scripture Is Current Scripture":
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  “Many years ago there came to Utah a learned prelate of the Greek Catholic church. . . . He had been to a ‘Mormon’ sacrament meeting, and had much to say in criticism of our method of administering the Lord’s Supper, particularly our use of water instead of wine on such occasions. He said it made him shudder when he saw the people sipping the water; and he pointed out the fact, for it is a fact, that according to the Bible the Savior, when he instituted the sacrament among the Jews used wine, declaring that it was his blood, or that it represented his blood. . . .
  (Story told by Elder Orson F. Whitney who served as an Apostle from 1906 to 1931)
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 9th, 2009
- Glenn, please come join our conversation on this at Concerned Christians - we're kicking the ball around with another faithful Mormon and we're getting an education on both sides of the divide. I would love to benefit from your wisdom and insight and I'm sure that others - on BOTH sides of the divide - would too!
  .
  http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&catid=4&id=79402#79381
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 10th, 2009
- That's OK. I really don't have much respect for such sites as Concerned Christians. My experience with such places is that they really aren't interested in understanding what we believe. All they want is ammunition to use against those religions with which they disagree. I have never found that conversations with people such as this to be particularly edifying. So, I will pass.
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  by Glenn Blaylock on February 10th, 2009
- Well that's a pity. One of your colleagues is having a wonderfully robust conversation with us and we're benefiting from his wisdom.
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  Obviously, I have no compulsion to only go places where my worldview is going to be "understood" so we're very different in that sense.
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  I love the struggle - I find great joy in it!
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  ;-)
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  by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 10th, 2009
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Question

Why doesn't the LDS Church switch from water to grape juice for sacrament? This isn't a violation of D&C 27 and grape juice has been available since 1869. In fact D&C 27:4 could be interpreted as a prophecy of this change.

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Why doesn't the LDS Church switch from water to grape juice for sacrament? This isn't a violation of D&C 27 and grape juice has been available since 1869. In fact D&C 27:4 could be interpreted as a prophecy of this change.

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