To what extent do you agree that the relationship between monks and lay buddhists within the sangha is interdependent and beneficial to both?

A layperson can become a teacher, but not a priest in Soto, Obaku and Rinzai Zen. Technically, there is no real distinction in Zen between a priest and a monk. The distinction is really only made in the West between those who officiate at ceremonies such as marriage and so on and those who do not. Though some teachers do treat the matter differently - such as Roshi Jiyu Kennet did with the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives - the only Soto derived tradition that expects those who are ordained to be celibate for example. Any 'priest' in that sense though would have the requirement of being ordained and would thus not be a lay person. And ordination in Zen, unlike say the Theravada, is for life, so even if that person were to never wear their robes, leave their teacher or whatever, they would still be a member of the clergy.
 
And the Theravada tradition does have lay teachers too, but do indeed accord a special place to those who have been ordained. However in all schools of Buddhism, apart perhaps from the Pure Land tradition, the ordained Sangha is seen as a central, interdependant and beneficial part of the Buddhist community. The Mahayana traditions though do emphasise more that one does not have to be ordained in order to awaken.

• Report

by Anon y mouse on January 24th, 2009

very helpfull : D thanks again. Are you a Buddhist yourself, or do you just know alot about Buddhism

• Report

by Strength on January 24th, 2009

I'm a Buddhist yes.

• Report

by Anon y mouse on January 24th, 2009

thats cool. Do you believe that you can be enlightened if you aren't a monk? are the monks wrong to say that only the arhats can be enlightened because to be enlightened you can meditate, get wisdom etc and anyone can do this. I'm a christian but interested in other religions.

• Report

by Strength on January 24th, 2009

Buddhist Monks don't claim that you have to be ordained in order to awaken. The Buddha never taught that and I know several people who've awakened that are not monks or nuns, not to mention the thousands who have done so since the time of the Buddha.

• Report

by Anon y mouse on January 24th, 2009

see when you are enlightened, i know its hard to explain until you reach it, but what happens to you exactly : S its confusing. and once you are enlightened what happens when you die?

• Report

by Strength on January 24th, 2009

It's not something that can really be explained in words. But simply put, you're awake. You understand who/what you are and that the universe and you are not separate. The point is that fundamentally there is no 'you' that things happen to and to awaken is to see this clearly. The idea of a pemanent, unchanging self is what keeps us from being awake. We think of the self as a thing, when in reality it's a process.

• Report

by Anon y mouse on January 25th, 2009

ahh ok i understand. so to be awakened you have to accept that there is no 'self'. So when you die are you reincarnated into something outside the wheel of samsara then if you are enlightened. : S or are you put in a good realm your next life and have to be enlightened again in the new life ? : S

• Report

by Strength on January 25th, 2009

This isn't something that can really be understood intellectually. It has to be experienced and seen directly. It's not that there is no you at all, but what we think of as ourselves is not a thing that events happen to. It's not a thing separate from anything else, or that is fixed and unchanging.
 
Awakening is seeing clearly that any fixed concept of self is not accurate and seeing directly and clearly how things are. It's not a way of thinking, or something that happens in one's head, but involves the whole body/mind. So the point of when 'you' die is already inaccurate. There is no fixed and unchanging you that dies. This might help clarify it:
 
"So it is with our sense of self. The issues of what a self is, how long it will last, what will happen when our bodies die and decay and our consciousness flickers off, are all based not on what we actually see but on what we imagine. The horrendous issues we've always feared turn out to exist only in our thoughts, concepts and imaginations, not in Reality.
 
By attending carefully to our actual, direct experience, each of us can see this directly. And when we do see this, we're released from far more than the irrational fears of a childhood fantasy. We're free from the deep fear and horror that have relentlessly plagued humankind.

• Report

by Anon y mouse on January 25th, 2009

Each one of us can awaken from this pain without resorting to stories or gimmicks. We can finally see that we've been distressed and worried over an illusion."
 
- Steve Hagen, Buddhism Plain and Simple

• Report

by Anon y mouse on January 25th, 2009

thanks.

• Report

by Strength on January 25th, 2009

Thanks for the info, Anon y mouse. How would you class the Lay Minster role in the OBC Soto lineage?

Some info here (p202-203):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sf9d2eo_QhsC&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=soto+zen+lay+minister&source=web&ots=m-jfJ4XOcv&sig=x1bml2NelEgZHqDG2eKfNeb7LSk&hl=en&ei=svqXSaHVKNi5kAXZkYW9Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA203,M1

• Report

by sunsoul on February 15th, 2009

thanks

• Report

by Strength on January 24th, 2009