TRUE OR FALSE: Brigham Young was inspired to leave space for elevators in the Salt Lake Temple design.

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by fairiesinflight on February 15th, 2011

The source is the SLC Temple Tours as well as Mormon Folklore:

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/07/taking-aim-at-mormon-folklore/

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/9913-means-invented-prophets-communicate-people-2.html

http://www.millennialstar.org/pearls-swine-and-the-value-of-blogs/

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 15th, 2011

so in other words its here-say, and there is no physical record of him saying that? correct.

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by Does it matter? on February 16th, 2011

To my knowledge, no, Brigham Young never made this claim.

However, a few points:

a) Has anyone here claimed that he did?

b) Even if he didn't, so what - the LdS Church via their tour guides (usually LdS Missionaries) OFFICIALLY makes the claim.

And since the claim is so consistent across decades of tours you can't claim that the tour guide is just "speaking as a man". They were clearly told this as part of their training for the tour.

The fact remains that the claim IS made, is made by OFFICIAL representatives of the LdS Church and the claim is pervasive enough within and without Mormonism that it merited a question on Answerbag.

AND. further, I would mention, that it's been written about in scholarly and vernacular Mormon literature.

So in the end, it's irrelevant and not germane to the question at hand whether Brigham Young himself ever made the claim himself or not.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 16th, 2011

Thank you for your answer.

However, the truth can be found in Laie's answer - he did the research and answered this a while back.

The correct answer, according to Laie's research is "False".

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 17th, 2011

Interesting article. Sometimes it is hard to place certain events in the grand scheme. However, I don't see how he was any less inspired. Unless you mean inspired to say that he somehow saw into the future via revelation.

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by PrestorJohn on March 17th, 2011

Did you happen to notice in the article that he wasn't really that involved in the design? Others took a far greater role.

As Laie's research shows clearly, this assertion is nothing more that folklore with no basis in reality.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 17th, 2011

Always a step too far. Brigham Young appinted Truman O. Angell Sr. as Church Architect, who was placed in charge of building many structures, including the Salt Lake City Temple. Also, in 1856 Brigham Young asked Angell to go to Europe so that he could learn the architectural designs there. Brigham Young was inspired, both in appointing Angell, as well as sending him to Europe to learn. Did he know that these actions would lead to elevators and electrical wiring? No. Its just like I said in my earlier post, he was inspired, but probably didn't see the significance of it.

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by PrestorJohn on March 17th, 2011

No one denies that Brigham Young was a superb project manager, strategist, and tactician. But so is Larry Ellison, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs. Does that make them divinely inspired?

There is NOTHING in your list that doesn't point to Young's natural ability as a leader and a manager. And there is nothing in your list that couldn't be said of the atheists that I listed (Ellison, Gates, and Jobs)

So are you going to declare those three atheists "divinely inspired" as well for their market leading products and well run companies?

If not, then why do you bestow the title on Brigham Young?

And, I want to thank for validating my assertion that, Brigham Young wasn't really that involved in the design. Others - like Angell - took a far greater role.

As, and again, Laie's research shows clearly, the assertion that Young was divinely inspired to design elevator shafts into the SLC Temple is nothing more than folklore with no basis in reality.

Finally, the ad-hominem opener was unnecessary. Well you EVER just argue to the evidence rather to the man or will you continue to be such a BAD scholar that you have to personalize every argument?

It is REALLY getting old PrestorJohn.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 18th, 2011

I would most definately say that those men are divinely inspired. Anything that inspires men to do good, or to do good for men is inspired of God.

Brigham Young was not an architect. He appointed Angell to design the temple, other than some specifc designs. Of course the Church Architect would take a greater role than the prophet. I never made the assertion that Brigham Young designed and planned the entire temple. He was merely inspired to choose the right man and also inspired to send him to a palce of greater learning.

My first statement was very necessary. You have a habit of jumping to conclusions based on subjective evidences. Your statement "folklore with no basis in reality", is just such a jump. You continue to fail to understand the workings of God and that leaves you wanting. You are the one who has been out of line and making claims that are unsupported.

Where, anywhere, does God say that He does not inspire atheists? I am honestly more offended by that inference than anything you have said about me or Brigham Young.

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by PrestorJohn on March 18th, 2011

So let's get this straight . . .

You believe that God will divinely inspire an Atheist in the same way that He will divinely inspire Thomas S. Monson - correct?

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 18th, 2011

Depends on what you define as "inspiration". Does everyone in the world receive "inspiration"? Yes, of course. Everyone can have those moments of "turn left here", to avoid an accident, or that feeling in their gut to make one decision over another. All people can receive these little inklings of divine help.

However, prophets can also receive direct revelation, as in a voice or a visitation. Not only that (considering that anyone can also receive revelation, if they live accordingly and keep themselves clean) prophets are also given revelation for others as well. Considering that I am not a prophet, I cannot receive an answer on your behalf, however a true prophet can. Else, no scripture could be applied to anyone except the prophet receiving the revelation.

So, basically, yes, atheists and prophets alike are entitled to inspiration, but also no, to atheists receiving revelation like a prophet.

We are all children of God and He wants to help us, as much as we will permit Him.

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by PrestorJohn on March 18th, 2011

Please notice how I have carefully used the term "divine inspiration" in my posts. That's because this myth is based on the fact that God told Brigham Young via divine inspiration - via revelation - to leave shafts for (it's implied) a thereto unknown technology called "elevator".
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_inspiration )

What's you're describing for these atheists isn't divine inspiration as the Bible defines it it's "insight" or "discernment" and is just a basic survival skill nothing more.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 18th, 2011

I'd like scriptural evidence that proves that atheists cannot be inspired. Did not Gentiles come to Christ, being inspired and receiving a testimonty of Him? Didn't the centurion believe Christ could heal his servant, by merely a word spoken? Didn't the Romans believe in various gods and taken in idolatry? However, even the likes of them were open to inspiration. Claiming who can and cannot receive communique from our Father in Heaven is not up to you.

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by PrestorJohn on March 19th, 2011

PrestorJohn, there's a difference between being able to communicate with or have God GENERALLY reveal Himself to us and receive a SPECIFIC directive from God for all of God's Covenant people.

It's what Theologians call "General versus Divine Revelation".

What you're describing is General Revelation of the type that the Bible describes in Romans 1:

Romans 1 (NIV)
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

The type of revelation that's described in the folklore about the elevators - and how it's presented by the SLC Temple Tour Guides - is Divine Revelation which the Bible describes this way:

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD does nothing unless He reveals His secret counselTo His servants the prophets.

I can accept that the atheists described might have unknowingly received General Revelation however, not Divine Revelation.

And, of course, I realize that all that's really happening here is that you came to question with the preconceived conclusion that everything about the SLC Temple was Divinely Inspired so you're doing your darnest to bend the facts to fit that conclusion.

Unfortunately, the evidence, when left unmolested, leads to an entirely different conclusion which you absolutely (possibly can not) accept so you'll go through excruciating and irrational mental gymnastics to avoid the obvious conclusion in favor of the desired one.
(That's what Psychologists and Cult Researchers call "Thought Stopping" BTW)

Got it.

However, I've grown weary of your irrationality and insanity so I'm putting this thread on mute.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 19th, 2011

"...and is just a basic survival skill nothing more."

Doesn't sound like you meant ANY kind of revelation at all.

Also, you're undeviating goal of bad-mouthing my church and also accepting and presenting any "evidence" that attempts to make it look bad (without researching its reliability), is exactly what you are accusing me of. You have never shared with me any "evidence" that can be considered reliable. Each is baised to your assumptions of revelation. Talk about a hypocrite.

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by PrestorJohn on March 21st, 2011

Thank you for your answer. Did you vote? If so, your vote doesn't seem to have registered so you might want to try again.

And, just to clarify, you're saying that the inclusion of these things in the SLC Temple wasn't due to divine revelation to the Living Prophet Brigham Young?

Is this correct?

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 17th, 2011

I'm saying that not even Prophets receive divine revelation on every little point. Brigham Young saw something good and useful and had them incorporated in the design of the temple, even though the Saints didn't have the means to put those things in at the time.

To be completely honest, I hadn't even heard the claim about Brigham Young being inspired to have elevator shafts in the Salt Lake Temple. I had heard it regarding a temple in southern Utah (can't remember if it was the St. George or Manti), so I had to resort to Google.

I can see how this urban legend could have started. Someone hears that some of the early blue prints of the Temple included spaces which were "useless" at the time (how many people know of pre-turn of the century elevators?) and just happened to be big enough to serve as elevator shafts. Voila! It must have been a revelation!

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by laie_techie on February 19th, 2011

Yes, I agree the folklore angle isn't hard to deconstruct.

But why do you think the GA was allowing the Temple Square tour guests to give folklore as if it historical fact? Clearly, the historical record is pretty clear here and I find it hard to believe that they didn't know it.

After all, my understanding is that the original design and build blueprints (or whatever they called them back in the day) are still in the church archives.

And, BTW, it looks like you're going to have to vote again - your False vote didn't register for some reason.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 19th, 2011

I wasn't aware of any tour guides (aka missionaries) on Temple Square sharing this story.

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by laie_techie on February 19th, 2011

That's how I found out about it - from friends and relatives who went on the Temple Tour.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 19th, 2011

I'm sure it was a wording issue. Either the tour guide misspoke (giving the impression there was a revelation on the matter) or your friends embellished the story like a fishing tale.

Again, I'm not saying the was a revelation for the elevator shafts, but I'm not ruling it out completely. Evidence points to the possibility of Brigham Young hearing of elevators, so maybe he just latched onto a good idea. I honestly don't know.

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by laie_techie on February 20th, 2011

The folklore is too pervasive to claim that A tour guide misspoke. We're talking about multiple tour guides across two, three, now going on four decades.

My Mormon brother (who now knows that it's hooey) heard it back in the 1970's, my parents, sister and brother in law the 1980's, and my Mormon nieces and nephews (who repeated the myth until they were set straight) the 1990's and 2000's.

And since I posted this question I've done further research and LdS Scholars going back to the 1950's and 60's were publishing scholarly papers refuting the myth. As soon as I present my research via my own vote and answer you will see that it was ALWAYS known that the shafts (you're incorrect, there are actually FOUR of them) were always intended to be and designed as elevator shafts.

Further, the SLC Temple originally had wall conduits run for both gas and electricity - though the gas conduits were never used.

The history of the Temple is certainly fascinating but these claims of divine revelation of future technology in the original designs are myths, nothing more.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 21st, 2011

Thank you for your answer.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 15th, 2011

Thank you for your answer.

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by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 15th, 2011