- NEW!
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on December 23rd, 2009
Help answer this question below.
source = http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/me_in_restoration/Christmas_story.htm
The Christmas Story and Joseph Smith, Restorer of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
by Lynn Ridenhour
It's that time of year again. A time to love. A time to be a child again. A time to accept everyone & everything. It's time for the Christmas Story.
We all know it. And it's a blessed theme.
May I put a new spin on it?...
Much of the symbolism of the Christmas story, I believe, wraps around one of my favorite persons——Joseph Smith, Jr. Take, for instance, the star. Wise men from the east looked for this sign to appear in the heavens.
And the star must appear at an appointed time. It must appear on the darkest night of the year. Which happens to be, by the way, December 23rd. Joseph Smith was born on December 23rd--the darkest night of the year. The Egyptians referred to this night as the "Winter Solstice."
It was believed among the ancient Egyptians that the purpose of earth life was to prepare for eternal life with the Gods in the world to come. Everything that was, had been before. There was nothing "...new under the sun." Every person simply had to find his place on the celestial stairway, pass the guardian angels and find his way back into celestial glory.
I submit--Joseph is that Star which leads a dark world out of "Winter Solstice"-- back to the Christ child. He's the guardian messenger who has the revelations, the hidden mysteries——that lead us back into celestial glory. Especially in our dispensation, for so many grand truths were lost in the reformation.
December 23rd——Winter Solstice——Joseph Smith——the Star on that dark night——and the Christmas Story. I can see the symbolism.
Wise men from the east were called magi, or grand magi. Wise men from the grand orient lodge will follow that star until they find the babe wrapped in his stable. There was no room for the babe in the Inn (or lodge).
by k
on November 21st, 2010
voted:
Strongly disagree
Selected by the asker, Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here. (What's this?)
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on December 23rd, 2009
Selected by the asker, Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here. (What's this?)
by dread02
on December 23rd, 2009
voted:
Strongly disagree
by laie_techie
on November 21st, 2010
voted:
Strongly disagree
by CactusWren
on June 1st, 2010
voted:
Strongly disagree
by Brian I on December 24th, 2009
by Don Gorgeous George on December 24th, 2009
by soulalonegirl
on December 24th, 2009
voted:
Neither agree nor disagree
Former LdS Bishop and Stake Mission President, Bob McCue asks us: "Was Joseph Smith, Jr. trustworthy?"
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on February 2nd, 2011
| 1 person likes this
Why don't all black Mormons have vitiligo like Joseph Smith said they would?
by Want To Sleep With A Miner on June 22nd, 2011
| 1 person likes this
MORMONS: Where is the parchment of "John, the beloved disciple...written and hid up by himself" that D&C 7 was translated from?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on December 20th, 2010
| 1 person likes this
Joseph Smith "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead..." Meaning...?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on December 22nd, 2009
| 1 person likes this
MORMONS: Why is it that Joseph Smith, Jr's First Vision account is nearly identical to others in and around Palmyra during the same period
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 1st, 2010
| 1 person likes this
You're reading According to a Mormon Scholar (see below) the symbols of Christmas point us to Joseph Smith, Jr. founder of Mormonism. Is he right?
Your favorite Q&A site is on Facebook! Become a fan to connect with the ever-growing community of Answerbaggers, share your thoughts and find out what Answerbag's up to next!
Comments
Wow! Yet another amazing job of research!
Here's yet another "Asker's Pick" for you KGirl!
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 21st, 2010
Thank you!
And thanks for sharing the article....despite the discomfort it gave me to read it (I hate to think of anyone's faith in terms of creepy, but really, this is how the fawning in the article came off) I think it is a very good example of feelings betraying beliefs. In this case, it may not be a belief of the LdS that Joey is to be worshipped, but the feelings displayed in this article say otherwise.
by k on November 21st, 2010
KGirl, there's a lesson for ALL believers in Christ here!
Lynn Ridenhour (he's a man BTW) using to be a Professor of Religious Studies at Jerry Falwell's Liberty University. His worldview and theology used to be Biblical - believe it or not!
He has now become a case study and object lession for how sincere well intentioned Christians can fall into deep, deep, deep deception and error.
If you care to read his story it's on his website. Personally, it broke my heart to see what joy he now takes in worshiping Joseph Smith.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 21st, 2010
I know this may be beating a dead horse, but LdS get offended at being called non-Christian. LdS believe Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Creator, and the Son of God. Is the "sin" of having extra-biblical Scripture so great that it excludes us from the "Christian" label?
The article reflects the author's own opinions and not official LdS doctrine (or even beliefs commonly held by LdS world-wide).
by laie_techie on November 21st, 2010
What I wrote Laie, is that Joseph Smith Jr. was a non-Christian prophet, because he was.
Whether or not LdS are Christian is another topic entirely. I understand that you get offended at being called non-Christian Laie. I am sure in return, that you understand why I get offended that LdS call themselves Christian. And I know that we both understand that "offend" in both cases does not mean that respect and good will toward one another has been turned away from.
In the same way that I do not believe Christians are Jewish because we believe in additional scripture, have a fuller understanding of God and a more complete understanding of his plan for us, I do not believe LdS are Christian because you have additional scriptures, have a fuller (according to the LdS church) understanding of God, and a more complete (according to the LdS church) understanding of God's plan for mankind. These are different religions Laie, and while they have all stemmed from one common religious denominator (Judaism), it does not follow that they are all the same religion. If they were, then Islam would need to be worked in there too.
by k on November 21st, 2010
Mister It,
I read through Mr. Ridenhour's testimonies. How very sad!! That a man capable of such faith and evangelism should turn in that direction is a great loss. I only hope that the Biblically orthodox he encouters manage to stay firm in God's truth, in light of his zeal and fanaticism!!
by k on November 22nd, 2010
@Laie
YOU WROTE
"LdS believe Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Creator, and the Son of God. Is the "sin" of having extra-biblical Scripture so great that it excludes us from the "Christian" label?"
MY RESPONSE
Well at the risk of sounding callous, I really don't care if pseudo Christians get offended at being that their group isn't Christian. But tell you what Laie we'll start calling you all non-Christian as soon as you you all align your theology with Biblical orthodoxy.
And your "sin" is changing the nature of God VIA extra-Biblical scripture not adding scripture to the canon.
And for the viewing public let's run through it one more time:
==============================================================
Q: Are Jesus and Satan Spirit Brothers?
==============================================================
What the Bible teaches:
--------------------------------
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Jesus is the unique Son of God; he has always existed as God, and is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father (John 1:1, 14; 10:30; 14:9; Colossians 2:9).
While never less than God, at the appointed time He laid aside the glory He shared with the Father (John 17:4, 5; Philippians 2:6-11) and was made flesh for our salvation; His incarnation was accomplished through being conceived supernaturally by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin (Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:34-35).
What the Mormon Church teaches:
--------------------------------
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Jesus Christ is our elder brother who progressed to godhood, having first been procreated as a spirit child by Heavenly Father and a heavenly mother; He was later conceived physically through intercourse between Heavenly Father and the virgin Mary (D&C 93:21; Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51; Gospel Principles, p. 11-13; Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 129; Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547; 742; Ezra Taft Benson, Come unto Christ, p. 4; Robert L. Millet, The Mormon Faith: Understanding Restored Christianity, p. 31). Mormon doctrine affirms that Jesus, all angels, Lucifer, all demons, and all human beings are originally spirit brothers and sisters (Abraham 3:22-27; Moses 4:1-2; Gospel Principles, pp. 17-18; Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
==============================================================
Q: Is Jesus Christ the second person of the Trinity?
==============================================================
What the Bible teaches:
--------------------------------
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost are not separate Gods or separate beings, but are distinct Persons within the one Triune Godhead.
Throughout the New Testament the Son and the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father are separately identified as and act as God (Son: Mark 2:5-12; John 20:28; Philippians 2:10,11; Holy Spirit: Acts 5:3,4; 2 Corinthians 3:17,18; 13:14); yet at the same time the Bible teaches that these three are only one God (see point 1).
What the Mormon Church teaches:
--------------------------------
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577), and that the Son and Holy Ghost are the literal offspring of Heavenly Father and a celestial wife (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, p. 649).
- CONTINUED -
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 22nd, 2010
==============================================================
Q: Does Christ's Atoning Death Benefit Those Who Reject Him?
==============================================================
What the Bible teaches:
--------------------------------
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the purpose of the atoning work of Christ on the cross was to provide the complete solution for humankind’s sin problem. However, those who reject God’s grace in this life will have no part in this salvation but are under the judgment of God for eternity (John 3:36; Hebrews 9:27; 1 John 5:11-12).
What the Mormon Church teaches:
--------------------------------
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the purpose of the atonement was to bring resurrection and immortality to all people, regardless of whether they receive Christ by faith. Christ’s atonement is only a partial basis for worthiness and eternal life, which also requires obedience to all the commands of the Mormon church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals (Gospel Principles, pp. 74-75; Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).
==============================================================
Q: How Can We Make Ourselves Worthy Before God?
==============================================================
What the Bible teaches:
--------------------------------
The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that apart from the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross we are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1,5) and are powerless to save ourselves. By grace alone, apart from self-righteous works, God forgives our sins and makes us worthy to live in His presence (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-6).
Our part is only to cling to Christ in heartfelt faith. (However, it is certainly true that without the evidence of changed conduct, a person’s testimony of faith in Christ must be questioned; salvation by grace alone through faith, does not mean we can live as we please — Romans 6:1-4).
What the Mormon Church teaches:
--------------------------------
By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that eternal life in the presence of God (which it terms "exaltation in the celestial kingdom") must be earned through obedience to all the commands of the Mormon Church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals. Works are a requirement for salvation (entrance into the "celestial kingdom") — Gospel Principles, p. 303-304; Pearl of Great Price — Third Article of Faith; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 339, 671; Book of Mormon — 2 Nephi 25:23).
- CONTINUED -
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 22nd, 2010
==============================================================
Conclusion: The Mormon Jesus is NOT the Biblical Jesus
==============================================================
The Biblical points above constitute the common gospel believed by all orthodox Christians through the ages regardless of denominational labels. On the other hand, some new religions such as Mormonism claim to be Christian, but accept as Scripture writings outside of the Bible, teach doctrines that contradict the Bible, and hold to beliefs completely foreign to the teachings of Jesus and His apostles.
Mormons share with orthodox Christians some important moral precepts from the Bible. However, the above points are examples of the many fundamental and irreconcilable differences between historic, biblical Christianity and Mormonism. While these differences do not keep us from being friendly with Mormons, we cannot consider them brothers and sisters in Christ. The Bible specifically warns of false prophets who will teach "another gospel" centered around "another Jesus," and witnessed to by "another spirit" (2 Corinthians 11:4,13-15; Galatians 1:6-9). Based on the evidence presented above, we believe Mormonism represents just such a counterfeit gospel.
It has been pointed out that if one claimed to be a Mormon but denied all the basic tenets of Mormonism — that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is true and divinely inspired, that god was once a man who progressed to godhood through keeping the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Church, and that the Mormon Church was divinely established — the Mormon Church would reject such a person’s claim to being a Latter-day Saint. One cannot fairly call oneself a Mormon if one does not believe the fundamental doctrines taught by the Mormon Church. By the same token, if the Mormon Church does not hold to even the basic biblical truths believed by the greater Christian community down through the ages, how can Christians reasonably be expected to accept Mormonism as authentic Christianity?
If the Mormon Church believes it is the only true Christian Church, it should not attempt to publicly present itself as a part of a broader Christian community. Instead it should tell the world openly that those who claim to be orthodox Christians are not really Christians at all, and that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. This in fact is what it teaches privately, but not publicly.
(source = http://www.irr.org/MIT/is-mormonism-christian.html )
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 22nd, 2010
Once again someone has spun half-truths to make Mormonism appear non-Christian.
Jesus in Mormonism. Mormonism teaches that Jesus was chosen as the Messiah before the foundation of the world. Jesus is the oldest spirit child of God, and the Only Begotten of the Father. Mormonism teaches that Jesus (as Jehovah) was the Verb through which the Father created the earth and mankind.
Mormonism does NOT teach (nor demand that it be believed) that the physical body of Jesus is the product of physical sexual relations between the Father and Mary.
The Trinity. The word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible. This belief arose CENTURIES after the Bible was written. Mormonism teaches that the Godhead is composed of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.
The Atonement. Mormonism teaches that there were two purposes for Jesus' Atonement: 1. overcome death 2. overcome the effects of sin. Since all mankind dies (physically) because of the acts of Adam and Eve, thus all mankind shall rise again (physically) through the resurrection of Jesus. Because man is punished for their own sins, Salvation from the effects of sin is individual (as opposed to universal as the resurrection). Sinners who reject this Salvation from spiritual death are damned.
Making Ourselves Worthy. There is a passage in the Book of Mormon which is often misunderstood. It states that we are saved through the grace of Christ /after all we can do/. This little gem is often twisted to make it appear that LdS believe we can earn our Salvation by ourselves, without need of grace.
by laie_techie on November 27th, 2010
> It has been pointed out that if one claimed to be a Mormon but denied all
> the basic tenets of Mormonism — that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God,
> that the Book of Mormon is true and divinely inspired, that god was once a
> man who progressed to godhood through keeping the laws and ordinances of
> the Mormon Church, and that the Mormon Church was divinely established —
> the Mormon Church would reject such a person’s claim to being a Latter-day
> Saint. One cannot fairly call oneself a Mormon if one does not believe the
> fundamental doctrines taught by the Mormon Church.
Not all of the items listed are fundamental doctrines taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Never in a setting which could affect my standing within the Church (eg. interview for baptism, priesthood ordination / advancement, serving a mission, receiving a temple recommend) was I asked if I believe that God our Father is an exalted man, or that God had sex with Mary, etc.
If one does not agree with our true fundamental doctrines (ie. The Articles of Faith), /then/ that person most likely will be excommunicated from the Church.
> By the same token, if the Mormon Church does not hold to even the basic
> biblical truths believed by the greater Christian community down through
> the ages, how can Christians reasonably be expected to accept Mormonism as
> authentic Christianity?
The argument has always been what constitutes those basic biblical truths. And how old must such beliefs be in order for them to become mandatory? Many common beliefs are the results of synods and councils held centuries after the Bible was written.
by laie_techie on November 27th, 2010
"Jesus in Mormonism. Mormonism teaches that Jesus was chosen as the Messiah before the foundation of the world. Jesus is the oldest spirit child of God, and the Only Begotten of the Father. Mormonism teaches that Jesus (as Jehovah) was the Verb through which the Father created the earth and mankind."
Laie, there is not one single thing in your above statement concerning Jesus that I agree with. None of what you have writen concerning him is found in the Bible. The concept of spirit child, only begotten (in the way Mormonism defines it) and Jesus being Jehovah are all beliefs that do not exist in the Christian world.
You claim that the Trinity and the creeds (what you are getting at with your comment regarding synods and councils)came about centuries after Jesus, so they are open to interpretation. However, the belief in a Monotheistic God has been around for thousands of years. Jesus is a part of that God (not another God under one Godhead, which no matter how you slice it is more than one God...going against all Biblical texts claiming there is only one God, and all others are false). It really is pretty simple. The Trinity is just a name, like the Bible is just a name. Neither are found in the Bible, but that doesn't mean they are any less meaningful. As for the creeds, the early creeds are nothing more than the core Biblical truths condensed into a statement. Later creeds represented individual denominations, but where they differed is in the non-essentials so that is fine. As long as the essentials of what the beliefs of Christianity are stay in place, there is room for liberty when it comes to the non-essentials.
"In essentials unity
In non-essentials liberty
In all things charity"
Saint Augustine
Whether the LdS church acknowleges it or not, the essentials of the Christian faith, the core doctrines, have been in place and established for two thousand years. Three hundred years after the death of Jesus, they were cannonized. The truths that God's word (the Bible) share concerning the essientials of belief have been believed since the days of Jesus. There has been no break in that faith, no great apostacy, no loss of authority, no loss of keys. God's church, the Body of Christ has been on earth loving him and worshipping him, and working for him since the day that Jesus ascended to Heaven. God has kept the promise he made in Matthew 16:17-20. The Body of Christ is always working toward a deeper understanding of God, and unity with liberty, that is why there are so many different denominations of Christianity. We all have our unique part to play in the Body. A Body cannot function with only a left hand...there also needs to be right hand, two feet, eyes, etc. And so it is with the Body of Christ. We all play our different and ESSENTIAL parts. However, we still all acknoledge and agree in the basic doctrines of the Christian faith.
"If one does not agree with our true fundamental doctrines (ie. The Articles of Faith), /then/ that person most likely will be excommunicated from the Church."
EXACTLY Laie!!! And that is exactly what Mister It and I are trying to get across. If one does not agree with the true fundamental doctrines of Christianity, then that person will not be a member of the Body of Christ. And that is what happened with Joseph Smith. He did not profess the doctrines of Christianity, in fact he condemned them. Therefor, he is NOT a member of the Christian faith, nor is the church he built the foundation of.
by k on November 28th, 2010
1. Christianity represents the belief in the Father, Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit, as revealed through the Bible ALONE.
2. Chrisitianity represents the belief that God chose to come to earth as a human through a virgin birth. He lived and fulfilled EVERY SINGLE MESSIANIC PROPHECY outlined about him in the Old Testament. He was the perfect sacrificial lamb because of his sinless life, and his blood upon the cross is what pays our sin debt and makes us righteous before God so that we may dwell with God for eternity. There is no other way to Heaven but by the blood of Jesus.
3. Christianity represents the belief that the Bible is God breathed, inerrant and complete.
These are the three most basic tenants of the Christian faith. Every Christian denomination from Catholic to Amish, from non-Denominational to fundamentalist Pentacostal, from Messianic Believer to Ethiopian Orthodox believes these tenants. A deeper explaination of what Christians believe can be found at http://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity .
Mormons can be called Christian when the word Christian is defined as follower of Christ without any clarification at all. That would mean though that ANY person or religion claiming to follow Christ is Christian, opening up the definition to include Muslims, Baha'i, Branch Davidians, and anyone who follows someone named Christ. However, when the word Christ is clarified, as I did above...the Christ of the Bible alone...then Mormons are not Christian. Obviously Mormons will disagree that Christ is defined by the Bible alone. Those who have been called Christian and who have defined that word for over 2000 years define Christian as I did above.
The same argument can be used for the word Mormon, or LDS or member of Jospeh Smith Jr.'s church. I would argue that ANYONE claiming to believe in the Book of Mormon, and who claims Joseph Smith Jr was a true prophet of God is a Mormon. Yet, there have been over 100 different denominations within Mormonism ever since Joseph Smith Jr published the Book of Mormon in 1830, nearly 20 years AFTER he received his first vision (according to the LdS church). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the SLC Utah church) is only ONE of dozens of Mormon churches in existance today. Yet, they claim they are the true LdS and the others are not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_denominations#The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
by k on November 28th, 2010
Well I could easily say, "Yeah what KGirl said!" and leave it at that but . . . I won't.
Suffice to say Laie, by your protest response you have in fact validated and confirmed the assertions of the IRR article that I clipped nearly point-by-point.
There is no Biblically orthodox Church that would accept your answer as proof that you are a Christian. Therefore, you have in fact indicted yourself with your testimony.
And I always love this "gem" from Mormons:
"The argument has always been what constitutes those basic biblical truths. And how old must such beliefs be in order for them to become mandatory? Many common beliefs are the results of synods and councils held centuries after the Bible was written."
That's like a registered Libertarian saying of the Republican Party:
"How dare the GOP define what constitutes a true "Republican" and come up with rules for inclusion within the party!
After all, this list of criteria was developed more than a 100-years AFTER the formation of the Republican Party and the death of Abraham Lincoln! How dare they form committees and councils to determine what set of standards a Republican must adhere to in order to call oneself a "Republican".
After all, we Libertarians are merely trying to RESTORE the Republican party back to the party of Lincoln! We're the ones with the REAL Republican truth - not them!
So what if I and my friends are registered Libertarians! So what if the criteria that we adopted for inclusion is different, and therefore, rejected by those elitist, exclusive Republicans! We are just as "Republican" according to our set of criteria, rules, and beliefs - in fact, by OUR criteria, we are MORE Republican than any so-called Republican!!!
I may be a registered Libertarian, I may live, and act and vote in the Libertarian Party but dog gone it, I'm a Republican!
Sorry mate but new comers and usurpers just don't get to change the rules for inclusion for an established group - that's just the way it is.
It's like me coming along and proposing a new set of criteria that conflicts with beliefs, practices, doctrine, and authority structure of the modern LdS Church and then calling myself a "Mormon".
That, essentially, is what Mormon like yourself are doing when you claim to be "Christian". And by your reasoning and methodology ANY new group could claim to be "Christian" but just claiming that THEY have the truth and the Bible doesn't.
Sound familiar? Yep, that is EXACTLY what Joseph Smith did:
"In defense of God, Joseph Smith assailed the natural revelation of deism and the static revelation of traditional Christianity. To enable revealed religion to overcome natural religion, however, he supported the deistic attack upon the view that the present Bible is God's complete and errorless revelation to mankind. Destruction of the traditional view left him free to preserve special revelation by his own means."
(Robert N. Hullinger, Mormon Answer to Skepticism: Why Joseph Smith Wrote the Book of Mormon, Clayton Publishing House, 1980, p. 150)
And he wasn't alone. You can add David Koresh, Jim Jones, Charles Taize Russell, William Miller, Ellen G. White, Mary Baker Eddy, and a whole host of other cult founders to the list that have done EXACTLY what Joseph Smith did and then insisted - usually militantly, and angrily - that they be considered Christians.
Sound famililar?
That's what you're doing mate!
;-)
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 28th, 2010
Mister IT, you have it stuck in your head that Mormonism is a cult and does not qualify as Christian. There is NOTHING I could type to change your mind. I have pointed out flaws and misrepresentations in the tracts you post here, but it is for naught. If the likes of you and K and Joe Fraud are hell-bent on misunderstanding and misrepresenting Mormonism, there is nothing I can do.
For anyone who honestly wants to know what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes and teaches, go to the Church's official web site: http://www.mormon.org or read our Scriptures at http://scriptures.lds.org .
by laie_techie on November 28th, 2010
"If the likes of you and K and Joe Fraud are hell-bent on misunderstanding and misrepresenting Mormonism, there is nothing I can do."
Laie, you have refuted NOTHING that I posted...nothing. If you have a problem with my position, adress it. Do not lump me in with everyone you have a problem with. Do not accuse me of misrepresenting and misunderstanding your religion without pointing out where I have gone astray in my understanding and presentation.
And most of all, regardless of what Joe Fraud has said to you in other threads, that person is not part of this discussion and your slandering of them in this manner is very badly done.
by k on November 28th, 2010
Mister It,
thank you for all of the information that you took the time to post. I am looking forward to following the threads that you provided to research them further!
Laie,
I wish you had posted links supporting your position...but as you did not, I am not able to investigate the opinion that you shared.
by k on November 28th, 2010
No Laie, you would like to dismiss me as someone who is obstinate and holding to personal opinions ONLY but that isn't the case - in fact, it's utterly ridiculous.
I wish to God that Mormonism WERE Christian and that it's claims WERE true and verifiable and that it DIDN'T behave like a Mind Control Cult.
In fact, were that the case I would have become Mormon a long time ago! As you know I love Mormons and I find Mormonism fascinating.
And were that the case I wouldn't have to be concerned about the eternal state of my Mormon friends and family members in the long term, or be concerned about the fact that they're blinded by a dangerous and psychologically damaging Mind Control Cult here and now.
Is this all just my opinion? Hardly.
And Laie, you know this because I have cited source after source after source from experts here on AB who have validated and shown evidence after evidence. On the Theological front these have been experts throughout the ages - some even before Mormonism was formally founded - up and until today. And I have been provided these sources in such abundance that I have regularly sniped at by Mormons, Atheist, and ignorant and naive Christians here on AB! And I've only given you all a small percentage of the evidence that's available.
Why? Because I don't care? No, my friend, because I do.
And that mountain of evidence against Mormonism on ALL fronts is pervasive, compelling, validated, and cross validated. The only counter responses that Mormons can mount are Apologists from within and fringe supporters from without. And this has always been the case - since 1830.
Therefore I can only conclude that it is YOU my good friend who has something stuck in your head: You believe because you really, really, really want to despite all sound reason and evidence that you and your family for several generations have given themselves, their lives, and their fortunes to a non-Christian Mind Control Cult.
And I know that the alternative is just too painful to consider, so you don't.
So you engage in tactics like "Psychological Projection" (your last post) in order to stay blissfully un-self-aware:
"Psychological projection or projection bias (including Freudian Projection) is the unconscious act of denial of a person's own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to the weather, a tool, or to other people. Thus, it involves imagining or projecting that others have those feelings.
Projection is considered one of the most profound and subtle of human psychological processes, and extremely difficult to work with, because by its nature it is hidden. It is the fundamental mechanism by which we keep ourselves uninformed about ourselves. Humor has great value in any attempt to work with projection, because humor presents a forgiving posture and thereby removes the threatening nature of any inquiry into the truth."
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection )
(underlined italics added by poster for emphasis)
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 28th, 2010
And, KGirl, you're very welcome. I hope that you find those resources as interesting and rewarding as I have.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on November 28th, 2010