- NEW!
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on March 1st, 2011
Help answer this question below.
This question is derived from the following article
Sealed Fate
A burning in Ida Smith’s bosom leads her to Christopher Nemelka’s new spiritual order
By Stephen Dark
( http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-13162-sealed-fate.html ; retrieved date of post)
And here's the link to Christopher Nemelka's alleged translation of "Sealed Portion: The Final Testament of Jesus Christ"
http://thesealedportion.com/tsp/download/TSPSecured.pdf
by John Cox will be back April 6th 2013
on April 12th, 2011
voted:
No
by PrestorJohn
on March 14th, 2011
voted:
More No than Yes
by sealednot
on March 2nd, 2011
voted:
No
MORMONS: If Jewish and Christian scribes added to the plain and precious truths in the Bible, why are the extant manuscripts so consistent?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 16th, 2010
| 1 person likes this
MORMONS: Why does the Book of Mormon declare that there is only one God yet the Doctrine and Covenants teaches there are many gods?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on June 2nd, 2010
| 1 person likes this
Am i the only one who doesn't know what a Mormon is?
by Alexandra_D on January 11th, 2011
| 3 people like this
Mormons: Since Joseph Smith Jr. taught the "Song of Solomon" was not an inspired writing, why is it still part of LdS scriptures?
by k on January 4th, 2011
| 1 person likes this
The Book of Mormon strongly endorses Rigdon's views on those issues where Sidney Rigdon and Alexander Campbell disagreed prior to 1830. Why?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on July 31st, 2010
| 1 person likes this
You're reading Christopher Nemelka claims that he has translated the sealed portions of the Book of Mormon. Has he?
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Comments
After reading the first few chapters, and the provided news article my first instincts are confirmed "The Sealed Portion" seems to be a work of pure farce, meant to mock and undermine the Book of Mormon.
by John Cox will be back April 6th 2013 on April 12th, 2011
Well, news article aside, what lead you to the conclusion that it is, "a work of pure farce, meant to mock and undermine the Book of Mormon"?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 12th, 2011
For one when I was reading "The Coming Forth of the Sealed Portion" I needed a mop to clean up the sarcasm dripping from the words:
"we needed these laws given to us in such a way that it would seem completely arbitrary (thus assuring us our free agency) whether we obeyed them or not. We could not recieve these laws directly from the beings who had supernatural powers over the laws of nature..."
Sincerity is not easily faked and I don't think Mr. Nemelka tried very hard to fake it anyway.
Aside from the total lack of sincerity in tone and wording, there is also the subtle and sometimes not so subtle twisting of LDS doctrines.
Now if you combine all that with the news article, where Christopher Nemelka says his objective is to free people from the LDS church (notice he is not aiming to bring people to the extraterrestrial beings and a state of peace and happiness).
It seems clear to me that has picked up the challenge to write a book like the Book of Mormon, which Hugh B. Brown and others have said would be a supernatural feat.
It is my, admitidly assumptive opinion, that Nemelka's goal is to convince as many Mormons as he can that he is a revelator every bit as much as Joseph Smith; and then once they are convinced reveal simply that he is not nor ever has been a revelator. Thus discrediting himself and Joseph Smith in one fel swoop. I would not be surprised if he does this at the one and only Marvelous Work and a Wonder conferance in July of next year.
by John Cox will be back April 6th 2013 on April 13th, 2011
Couldn't I use all the same arguments to discredit Joseph Smith's work and claims of divine inspiration?
I see no difference between the arguments that you're using to condemn Mr. Nemelka and the arguments that Mormon Critics use to condemn Mr. Smith.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 13th, 2011
Well here's one glaring differance:
"Now if you combine all that with the news article, where Christopher Nemelka says his objective is to free people from the LDS church (notice he is not aiming to bring people to the extraterrestrial beings and a state of peace and happiness)."
---
Joseph Smith always maintained that his objective was to bring others to Christ and their Heavenly Father.
---
Another huge differance is that there is absolutely no sarcasm in Joseph Smith's History or the Book of Mormon.
---
In fact those were really the only two things I used so... no you couldn't use the same thing to discredit Joseph Smith.
In fact I dare you to find me a legitament Mormon Critic who perports that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon sarcasticly.
by John Cox will be back April 6th 2013 on April 13th, 2011
YOU WROTE
"Another huge differance is that there is absolutely no sarcasm in Joseph Smith's History or the Book of Mormon."
MY RESPONSE
Really?
Have actually READ the Book of Mormon my friend? Let me refresh your memory:
The Second Book of Nephi Chapter 29
3And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
5O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
6Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
That's called sarcasm John.
And have you forgotten about the original pre-1990 Temple Endowment Ceremony (authored by Joseph Smith) which included this sarcastic classic:
"The pastor is first interviewed by Lucifer who asks him if he has "been to college and received training for the ministry." Lucifer tells the pastor that if he is able to convert people to his "orthodox religion," he will pay him well. Lucifer then takes the preacher to two characters portraying "Adam and Eve" and tells him they "desire religion." The preacher tries to convince Adam to believe in a God who fills the universe, yet is so small that he can dwell in a person's heart, and a God that is surrounded by a myriad of beings who have been saved by grace. He also tries to convince Adam of the perils of hell, "a lake of fire and brimstone where the wicked are cast." Adam, the "good guy" in the scenario, rejects his teachings."
( http://mrm.org/temple-ceremony ; retrieved date of post)
And, of course, Joseph Smith's whole objective in using sarcasm in this matter was to "free people" from the "apostate" church of his day.
There's thus no difference between the two men in that regard.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 13th, 2011
And if you have any doubts about the pre-1990 Temple Ceremony narrative here it is:
ADAM: Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
(As Adam prays, Lucifer approaches from behind out of the shadows.)
LUCIFER: I hear you; what is it you want?
(Although Adam has already encountered Lucifer in the Garden of Eden, he fails to recognize him at this appearance.)
ADAM: Who are you?
LUCIFER: I am the God of this world.
ADAM: You, the God of this world?
LUCIFER: Yes, what do you want?
ADAM: I am looking for messengers.
LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? There will be many willing to preach to you the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.
ADAM: But I am looking for messengers from my Father.
(Adam and Eve turn, and walk past Lucifer, who follows behind. The scene changes to a view of the Celestial Kingdom, where Elohim and Jehovah stand, conversing amid tall white pillars. They are radiant as before, and their voices resonate as they speak.)
ELOHIM: Jehovah, send down Peter, James and John to visit the man Adam in the Telestial World, without disclosing their identity. Have them observe conditions generally, see if Satan is there, and learn whether Adam has been true to the token and sign given him in the garden of Eden. Have them then return and bring me word.
JEHOVAH: It shall be done, Elohim.
(Jehovah turns from Elohim and walks between two pillars to the edge of the platform where meets Peter, James and John, who await His command. They are dressed as the Jews were at the time of Christ.)
JEHOVAH: Peter, James and John, go down and visit the man Adam in the Telestial World, without disclosing your identity. Observe conditions there, and learn whether Adam has been true to the token and sign given to him in the garden of Eden. Then return and bring us word.
PETER: It shall be done, Jehovah. Come James and John, let us go down.
(The three turn and leave, and the scene turns to the lone and dreary world. Adam and Eve are shown walking through a forested area with Lucifer following them. Peter, followed by James and John approach Adam, Eve, and Lucifer.)
PETER: Good morning.
LUCIFER: Good morning gentlemen.
PETER: What are you doing here?
LUCIFER: Observing the teachings of these people.
PETER: What is being taught?
LUCIFER: The philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.
PETER: How is this teaching received?
LUCIFER: Very well! Except this man does not seem to believe what is being taught.
(Peter approaches Adam and shakes his hand.)
PETER: Good morning. What do you think of this teaching?
ADAM: I am looking for messengers from my Father to teach me.
PETER: That is good.
PETER: Have you any tokens or signs?
(Lucifer steps up to Peter and interjects his query.)
LUCIFER: Have you any money?
PETER: We have sufficient for our needs.
LUCIFER: You can buy anything in this world for money.
PETER: Do you sell your tokens or signs for money? You have them, I presume.
ADAM: I have them, but I do not sell them for money. I hold them sacred. I am looking for the further light and knowledge Father promised to send me.
PETER: That is right. We commend you for your integrity. Good day. We shall probably visit you again.
(Peter, James and John exit; Lucifer steps aside, and boasts aloud.)
LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest, or make afraid.
(The scene changes to the Celestial Kingdom. Peter, James, and John approach Jehovah with their report.)
PETER: Jehovah, we have visited the man Adam in the Telestial World as thou didst command us. We found Satan there, striving to lead the posterity of Adam astray. But Adam has been true and faithful to the token and sign given him in the garden of Eden, and is waiting for the further light and knowledge you promised to send him. This is our report.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 13th, 2011
(link to pre-1990 Temple Ceremony transcript = http://davidb.mystarband.net/Endowment.html )
And John, that TOO is sarcasm - there is NO difference between the methods, motives, and means of the two men.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 13th, 2011
And I apologize for my error - that section of the Temple Endowment Ceremony obviously contains a sarcastic mocking of Christianity HOWEVER, the section that I was really looking for is this one:
(Although Adam has already encountered Lucifer in the Garden of Eden, he fails to recognize him at this appearance.)
ADAM:: Who are you?
LUCIFER:: I am the God of this world.
ADAM:: You, the God of this world?
LUCIFER:: Yes, what do you want?
ADAM:: I am looking for messengers.
LUCIFER:: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? I will have preachers here presently. There will be many willing to preach to you the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.
(Lucifer turns his head as a sectarian minister approaches.)
LUCIFER:: Good Morning sir!
SECTARIAN MINISTER: Good morning!
(The preacher turns and looks into the camera.)
SECTARIAN MINISTER: A fine congregation!
LUCIFER:: Yes, they are a very good people. They are concerned about religion. Are you a preacher?
SECTARIAN MINISTER: I am.
LUCIFER:: Have you been to college and received training for the ministry?
SECTARIAN MINISTER: Certainly! A man cannot preach unless has been trained for the ministry.
LUCIFER:: Do you preach the orthodox religion?
SECTARIAN MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach.
LUCIFER:: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well.
SECTARIAN MINISTER: I will do my best.
(Lucifer guides the preacher to Adam and Eve, who stand nearby.)
LUCIFER:: Here is a man who desires religion. He is very much exercised, and seems to be sincere.
(As Lucifer presents the preacher to Adam and Eve he steps back and observes the ensuing conversation. The preacher is made to sound sincere, although misguided and credulous. Adam appears humble, faithful and immovable in his determination to serve God. He is not swayed by the preacher, and is astounded by the doctrines espoused by the preacher.)
SECTARIAN MINISTER: I understand that you are inquiring after religion.
ADAM:: I was calling upon Father.
SECTARIAN MINISTER: I am glad to know that you were calling upon Father. Do you believe in a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who sits on the top of a topless throne; whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere; who fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; who is surrounded by myriads of beings who have been saved by grace, not for any act of theirs, but by His good pleasure. Do you believe in such a great Being?
ADAM:: I do not. I cannot comprehend such a being.
SECTARIAN MINISTER: That is the beauty of it. Perhaps you do not believe in a devil, and in that great hell, the bottomless pit, where there is a lake of fire and brimstone into which the wicked are cast, and where they are continually burning, but none never consumed?
ADAM:: I do not believe in any such place.
SECTARIAN MINISTER: My dear friend, I am sorry for you.
LUCIFER:: I am sorry, very very sorry! What is it you want?
(The scene changes to a view of the Celestial Kingdom, where Elohim reigns from a white throne afront tall white pillars. He is radiant as before, and his voice resonates as he speaks with Jehovah, who stands before him.)
ELOHIM: Jehovah, send down Peter, James and John to visit the man Adam in the Telestial World, without disclosing their identity. Have them observe conditions generally, see if Satan is there, and learn whether Adam has been true to the token and sign given to him in the garden of Eden. Have them then return and bring me word.
JEHOVAH: It shall be done, Elohim.
(see http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare2.shtml ; retrieved date of post )
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 13th, 2011
Sorry, I misspoke. I didn't mean there was no sarcasm in the Book of Mormon. What I meant is the tennents the Book of Mormon perports are not the same as the ones in which sarcasm is used. Or in other words it doesn't simultaniously teach and mock doctrine it claims is true, it only uses sarcasm on those doctrines it teaches to be false.
The Sealed Portion uses sarcasm when speaking of doctrines it supposedly is teaching to be true. Big differance.
by John Cox will be back April 6th 2013 on April 14th, 2011
As for the supposed pre-1990 temple transcript you quoted. The fact that you have access to them discredits them, (as I know you didn't attend the temple prior to 1990) anyone who had heard those words would have made a promise not to banter them about in public, and I think posting them on the internet is doing just that don't you? So if they were willing to break that promise (or perhaps they lied to get into the temple) then how can I trust them to be true to the actual script?
I'm not saying the words are changed and I'm not saying they aren't but the way in which they were collected and distributed discredits them to the point of them not even being worth reading.
by John Cox will be back April 6th 2013 on April 14th, 2011
What makes you believe that Mr. Nemelka is being sarcastic regarding truths that he professes to be true?
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 14th, 2011
quotes like this:
"we needed these laws given to us in such a way that it would seem completely arbitrary (thus assuring us our free agency) whether we obeyed them or not. We could not recieve these laws directly from the beings who had supernatural powers over the laws of nature..."
that make the book sound more like a South Park explaination than scripture.
by John Cox will be back April 6th 2013 on April 15th, 2011
Sorry man but I can't sense a hint of sarcasm in that citation at all.
In fact, it sounds very much like it could have been pulled out of The Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price, one of Joseph Smith's sermons or a sermon from The Journals of Discourse.
I'm just not seein' it dude!
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 16th, 2011
It's all in the word usage, no one would describe the way they recieved their commandments as "completely arbitrary" describing someonelses mode of recieving commandments as completely arbitrary sure, but not your own.
by John Cox will be back April 6th 2013 on April 18th, 2011
Still not seeing it. The context of the word's use:
"we needed these laws given to us in such a way that it would seem completely arbitrary (thus assuring us our free agency) whether we obeyed them or not."
Tends to discredit any claim of sarcasm.
And I'm sure read in the greater context of what preceded it, that's even MORE true.
Sorry mate.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 18th, 2011
Well it's as clear as the nose on my face that he doesn't believe what he's writting. If you can't see it, my condulances, but it's plain as day.
by John Cox will be back April 6th 2013 on April 19th, 2011
Nope not seeing it at all. Sorry.
by Mister IT is trying to Liahona outta here on April 19th, 2011