How can a loving God send people to Hell?

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• Depends on the religion or sect of it. One of the things that sets the USA apart from Europe is the heavy protestant influence during the formation of a cultural identity that was different then that of Europe's. Calvinism was pretty popular then and believes that you are predestined from birth to go to heaven or hell, and you can't change that. One of the ways people would try to figure out if they were of the "elect" or not was to work hard and try a variety of professions, take risks as entrepreneurs, and try new ways of doing things. The logic being that if they were successful in their endeavors, it is because they were part of the elect and going to go to heaven.
  
  To contrast, try going to an area that has a heavy Roman Catholic influence in it's past. Italy and France are good examples. Here in the USA New Orleans would be the closest you can get to what I'm talking about. People are laid back, take their time doing things, and generally work a lot less.

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  by leetmeat on November 12th, 2009

• So what you are saying is that if you think you might go to hell you work harder?

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  by Ron C on November 12th, 2009

• What I'm saying is that Calvinists, and sects with similar beliefs of predetermination, believed that succeeding in your worldly endeavors was a sign that you were in fact of the elect that would be going to heaven.
  
  I'm just stating an occurrence of predetermination that had a significant effect on later economic power and cultural belief.
  I remain ambiguous as to the specific belief's practicality here.

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  by leetmeat on November 12th, 2009

• What I know of Calvinists is that they were rather dour, didn't celebrate holidays and were stiff and formal. If they believed that they were destined for heaven or hell, why work so hard. It seems that it wouldn't have mattered because they were preordained to their destiny. I sound awful to me.
  
  I blame the Puritans for most of the ridiculous laws we have about sex and liquor. They have an extraordinary influence for a sect that no longer exists.
  
  I agree that the Protestant work ethic helped make the country what it is. I just wish we could taper off a little.

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  by Ron C on November 12th, 2009

• You're not being objective enough as you have to be able to convince yourself for a moment, that you believe beyond any doubt, that god predestined you to go to heaven or hell. Then you can understand that you would be pretty interested in which group you fell under, hence working hard to succeed to prove to yourself you are in fact of the elect.
  I'm a nihilist atheist, nothing really matters in the big scheme of things and there is no afterlife. Does that mean I just kill myself now? Obviously not as I'm still here. Life takes on a whole new character that you never realized when you loose the arrogance of religion. Make of it whatever you want, but you only get one shot, one short stay here on planet Earth, so appreciate it.

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  by leetmeat on November 12th, 2009

• Thanks for the explanation. It's not surprising that the membership in calvinist sects dropped. It's an awful way to go through life.
  
  I agree with your atheist philosophy but wouldn't call myself a nihilist. I believe that we can have an affect on the "big scheme of things". Maybe not a lot, but enough to influence the future, kind of like the butterfly flapping its wings in the Amazon. I have grandchildren and want their life better than mine.

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  by Ron C on November 13th, 2009

• Big scheme of things meaning the universe as a whole. We could do a number of things on this planet and solar system that would impact it in a huge way if we, as a human race, united to do it. But unless we can come up with unified equations for quantum mechanics and the other 4 forces (gravity is a real bitch), we probably won't be able to effect anything outside of our solar system in any way.
  That's all I mean by "big scheme of things."
  Hopefully, we will develop ways of practical interstellar travel and spread out to the cosmos one day. Otherwise, we're pretty much resigned to our fate marooned on our little blue rock here. As great as our Sun has been to us thus far, we have about .5-1 billion years left before it will make things too hot and boil up all the oceans. Sounds like a long time, but look how fast those first 4.2billion years here on Earth flew by!

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  by leetmeat on November 13th, 2009

• Yeah, the first 4.2 billion slipped by so fast, all I remember is the last 60 or so years. There is a new project that was just launched. They are testing solar sails but as you suggested, they only work in the solar system. Not much light pressure outside a solar system. I am confident the problem of light travel will be solved if we can start spending money on research instead of the military. Just imagine how much we could have learned if them money wasted on useless wars was spent for education and research. Ironically most of the wars are based on religious and political philosophy.

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  by Ron C on November 13th, 2009

• Actually I meant 4.6billion years. Believe me us geologists can't remember all the dates of epochs either.
  Well, when we do develop that technology for interstellar travel, you can be assured the military will immediately start figuring out ways to kill better with it. They'll even be able to go discover whole new planets of stuff to kill!

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  by leetmeat on November 13th, 2009

• Oh, a geologist, I became an electronic engineer because I couldn't remember formulas, just how to work them out. Not good at memorizing times and dates.
  
  I think that we will de-emphasize the military. That's why I support education in countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan, and especially the U.S. Well educated people are more likely to find ways out of problems that don't involve blowing up your neighbor. The last few years have shown that the less secular education and more religious education a population has, the more likely they will resort to violence.
  
  I believe U.S. universities should be low cost of free to citizens that qualify. 1 month of the war in Iraq would pay for thousands to get doctorates in the U.S.

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  by Ron C on November 13th, 2009