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by anonymous on March 3rd, 2007
How much pain would it cause you to have an Atheist child or Atheist children? Why?
by A on April 6th, 2012
| 7 people like this
In the Atheist non-belief system, is believing in Astrology considered a "sin"?
by Marky Mark on April 8th, 2012
| 2 people like this
Is it hypocritical for a Christian to be intolerant of atheism?
by aldonoir on April 17th, 2012
| 3 people like this
Do you blindly assume that Atheists have no morals?
by A on April 24th, 2012
| 3 people like this
Atheists, were you brought up in atheistic homes? Or did you experience some epiphany that brought you to atheism?
by anil m on April 14th, 2012
| 4 people like this
You're reading What is the basis for the idea that Atheists are without morality? Surely anyone with eye's & ear's will be able to understand that it isn't true...
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Comments
I've studied the 'teachings' of the Bible, and they are truly quite violent, so I think it is a good thing almost no Christian alive actually lives by the book (It instructs us for example, that it is immoral to -not- kill non-Christians, it's good people don't follow this... erm... 'too' much...) My main point is that although Christians 'tend' to be moral people, they by no means get their morality from the Bible, or when they do, they have cherry-picked the verses they find moral, thus leading to the conclusion that we find our morality from another source, we use our in built morality to cherry-pick Bible verses so we can 'justify' them. Some people have the inbuilt idea that killing is good, they go to the Bible, it agrees, and they feel 'justified', so they go and commit murders... We have an outside source which gives us morality, and it is by no means any religious scripture.
by Twhupfold on March 3rd, 2007
Could you cite the scripture where it says it is wrong to not kill non-christians?
by anonymous on March 14th, 2007
It's a collection of passages from the Bible: Deuteronomy 17:12, Exodus 22:20, Deuteronomy 13, Deuteronomy 17:2-5, Leviticus 24:10-16, Deuteronomy 18:20-22, Romans 1:24-32. Now, before anyone tries to explain that "Oh these are from the Old Testament, Christians don't need to worry about those anymore", consider what Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20)
by Twhupfold on March 14th, 2007
Basically, Jesus didn't follow those laws so you wouldn't have to, he followed them to demonstrate 'how' to follow them... There is no way you can misinterpret that passage (Matthew 5:17-20) as anything short of that... : /
by Twhupfold on March 14th, 2007
Well just a quick look there shows Deuteronomy 17:2 doesn't say to kill "non-christians", but people who do "...what is bad in the eyes of Jehovah your God..." What is bad in the eyes of Jehovah are murder, rape, theft, worship of false gods (the ones that command people to have their children "pass through the fire", or sacrifice them by burning them alive) You know, the things for which people are killed by atheists and people of all religions in public executions, right now, today.
by anonymous on March 14th, 2007
(Deuteronomy 17:12) "And the man who will behave with presumptuousness in not listening to the priest who is standing to minister there to Jehovah your God or to the judge, that man must die; and you must clear out what is bad from Israel." Again this is not saying to kill "non-christians", but people brought before the courts or priests fro judgement after they have committed a crime, who show disrespect for the judgement of the court and refuse to comply with punitive action. These are to be put to death, not innocent people unaware of the laws.
by anonymous on March 14th, 2007
19 Anyone lying down with a beast is positively to be put to death.
20 One who sacrifices to any gods but Jehovah alone is to be devoted to destruction.
21 And you must not maltreat an alien resident or oppress him, for YOU people became alien residents in the land of Egypt.
20 is pretty close to what you are saying, but consider the context...just after it says "do not mistreat the alien resident". the alien resident would not be a christian, yet they do not kill him, but are commanded to treat him with loving kindness, just like a jew. Consider this, it is only the one who sacrifices to false gods. That is, someone knows there is a God, but refuses to pay homage to him and give their worship to a subordinate, a demon or other false god working in opposition to the true God. In other words, Satan worshippers, those I mentioned before who sacrifice their children to the false gods, it is not just "non-christians", but those who actively work against God or His arrangements.
by anonymous on March 14th, 2007
Eh hem, Atheist nations actually have the lowest crime rates in the world, do your research ;) (Many European nations for example are considered atheist nations, then compare their crime rates to lets say... America... a predominantly Christian nation, and you'll see why I don't think morality has any connection with religious faith.) I understand how these 3 passages out of 7 I gave are a bit fuzzy, but when you have all 7 together, I'd have thought the message was -very- clear...
by Twhupfold on March 14th, 2007
And of course, I know some of those passages are more towards 'People who actively seek to undermine God', given that they know he exists, but wish to destroy his peoples faith, etc. But you read the passages together and it's such a clear message... (If the bit about 'sacrifice' is literal, and not metaphorical, then how do you decide which is which, or is it that the whole Bible is literal, or the whole Bible is metaphorical?)
by Twhupfold on March 14th, 2007
I haven't had time to look at all of them yet. As for "atheist nations", whichever they are, having lower crime rates, is that because they make things legal, which are unacceptable in "christain nations"? I definitely would not call the USA a christian nation, either. Personally I think it takes more than a cross on your neck chain and an ancestor who went to church to call yourself a christian. Maybe that was apparent in my answer, where I implied there is noone doing what the Bible says, anywhere, so how can we see what christianity would be like? Without a common standard, how can you compare crime rates between nations? You could make silly laws in one area, like it is illegal to have a silly accent, and make everyone in France and Great Britain a criminal. Who is it that defines what is good or bad for the other nations in your research?
by anonymous on March 14th, 2007
Well, when you put it like that, you can see what Christianity would be like by looking at groups like the Spanish Inquisition, they went by a -very- literal Biblical Interpretation, and in many ways were some of the only 'true' Biblical Christians. And there is my original point, people cherry pick from the Bible, thus meaning our Morality is seperate from it, thus meaning that Atheists are equally capable of Morality... Simply put, if you followed all the teachings of the Bible, you would be an immoral person by any current societies standards... Therefore it is a good thing that many 'Christians' infact aren't true Biblical Christians, in that they don't 100% follow all Biblical teachings, they cherry pick the ones which fit into modern society.
by Twhupfold on March 15th, 2007
I'd just like to point out something which seems glaringly obvious to me about the whole "Atheists are immoral" argument: For the sake of this, I will assume that Religious people do indeed get their morality from Scripture. This means that Religious people's morality is motivated by 'God', this motivation is very rarely "God says to do it so I will", it's "God says to do it, and if I don't, I'll be punished, but if I do, I'll be rewarded"... Kind of a lack of respect for God's word as God's word, but rather a fear of the alternative / desire for personal gains through rewards in the afterlife... There are of course the exceptions, the people who follow the scriptural teachings because they truly respect it as 'the word of God', and thus it must simply be the truth, but they are just that, the exceptions... Atheists on the otherhand have no such afterlife motivations, some see this as a reason why they'd feel no pressure to be a moral being... But you miss the biggest point, because Atheists don't believe in an afterlife where they could be rewarded/punished, they believe that this life we have 'right now' is all we get, and to spend that life in Jail is to destroy the only chance you will -e-v-e-r- get... To the Atheist, once you commit a crime, you will be punished severely, end of story. To the religious person, there is always some hope of forgiveness or salvation... Thus, when you see quite clearly in all statistical recordings that Atheists make up only 0.2% of the prison population in the US, and around 50% call themselves Christians. Now, take into account the difference in the percentage of the 'total population' that each group takes up, and you get this: 2'000'000 prisoners, 0.2% Atheist, 50% Christian = 4'000 Atheists, 1'000'000 Christians = 1/325 Atheists are in Jail, 1/225 Christians are in Jail. Now, compare just general crime rates between countries, of the top 10 safest countries (lowest homicide rates in this case), 6 are Atheist nations, 2 are Muslim, 1 is Christian, and 1 is Jewish. Out of all industrialised countries in the world, the US has the highest crime rate per 100k people, it is 80% Christian. Thus, our morality does not come from Scripture, and thus Atheists (As shown by the real world anyway) are perfectly capable - indeed, statistically more likely - to be moral people. (This isn't to say that religious people are inherently immoral, just to say that morality and religion are likely seperate, and that no matter what logic you try to apply to the situation, if you actually open your eyes and look at the world, Atheists are some of the most law abiding, moral people in the whole world...
by Twhupfold on March 15th, 2007
Which are the "atheist nations"?
Sounds like BS.
I agree on a point, that the majority of people who call themselves christians, really are not. I would think that if 1,000,000 people said they ewre christian, maybe 1,000 really know and practice what the Bible really teaches. Of those 1000, maybe one or two are in jail, in China or some other country where it is illegal to openly preach. So I'll discount those, and now 0, that is 0% of prison populations are true christians, substantially less than the per capita population of atheists.
Another point you did not address, in these "atheist nations", are the laws simply changed so immoral things are no longer illegal, thus having lower crime rates? You really, really need to be specific here, where are these atheist nations? Otherwise you could just pull numbers and fantasies out of the air.
by anonymous on March 15th, 2007
Most Scandinavian countries have a huge majority atheist population (Some around 90%), many other European countries are around 50%+ atheist (Germany, France, & Britian for example), Japan has about a 65% Atheist/agnostic population, and their crime rates are some of the lowest in the entire world, 1 murder out of every 100'000 people, compared to almost 9 / 100'000 in the US, 1.3 Robbery to every 100'000, compared to 224 / 100'000 in the US. When I say they have a lower crime rate, I'm reffering to homicide & theft, both of which are illegal in any industrialised country in the world... Please, I have supplied statistical evidence I've collected from a magnitude of sources online, you're just making assumptions; "I would think that ... maybe 1'000 really practice... etc", "Of those 1'000 maybe one or two in jail, in China or some other country... etc"... If you would take the time to do any research on the comparisons between Religion & crime rates, you'd see that Atheism has one of the lowest crime rates in the entire world... Now, I don't know by what power you claim to be able to decide who is a true Christian or not, without actually knowing these people in person, or probably at all, but I doubt it is powerful enough that it over-rules factual evidence to the contrary...
by Twhupfold on March 16th, 2007
I hoped I wouldn't be forced to supply the sources for all my information, because they are all the first section of links you'd find in any search engine online about this subject, and I hoped you'd have come across the same facts as I had...
by Twhupfold on March 16th, 2007
Well, if you want factual information, the Bible says you should not kill, yet every orthodox Christian denomination has many members who are in the army where they are required to kill people. The Bible also says that homosexuality is not condoned, not allowed, yet every major denomination of Chrisitanity has gay or lesbian preists, condones gay marriages and takes no punitive action against any member who does practice homosexuality. The Bible also says we should not worship false gods or make sacrifices to idols, yet almost every christian in the entire world does this, performing rituals and carrying on traditions derived from pagan rituals and customs. For example, the Yule log placed in the fire hearth is symblic of having your children "pass through the fire", or a sacrificial death by fire to purify them and send their spirit to the "sun god." Right there I have eliminated more than 95% of "christians" as not following Christian teachings.
by anonymous on March 16th, 2007
I did a search for a country you mentioned as atheist, the first you mentioned, Scandinavia; http://www.sverigeturism.se/smorgasbord/smorgasbord/culture/lifestyle/religion.html "One of the ties that links the Scandinavian countries together is a common Lutheran religion."
I know from previous research that Germany had a similar Lutheran tradition. A poll in 1938 indicated 23.5 million of its 24 million residents claimed affiliation with the Christian Church, primarily Lutheran and Catholic.
by anonymous on March 16th, 2007
I do agree with you that many people use religion as a crutch to help them get through hardship, also as a tool to justify wrongddoing or salve their conscience, making them feel like it's alright to do bad things because they'll be forgiven. What my point is, these people are not really Christians. They don't know what the Bible teaches, even if they can quote the entire Bible to you form memory, they don't understand how to apply it to their daily lives. The abuse of the Bible to justify wars and killing has led to the deaths of countless millions of people, possibly more than a billion.
But the Bible says we should not kill, in fact, it even says we should love our enemy. Do you see any people called christians who are doing this, or do they just love their friends, families and people that can benefit them?
by anonymous on March 16th, 2007
Your first comment is very well said, and in many ways mirrors what I'm trying to say, the 2nd one... You quote a single website, then a 70 year old poll, taken during a period of -extreme- nationalism, where I think it would be a very safe bet to say many people who claimed to be Christian did it to fit into society and escape persecution of some form... (Though of course yes, there were actual Christians too). Last comment, I think we have come to an agreement :P ... The complete lack of unified morality within Christianity shows quite clearly that morality doesn't come from it (It is present within it much of the time thankfully, but it certainly does not come 'from' it). Therefore there is no real reason why Atheists should be considered immoral people on the grounds of a lack of belief in the supernatural, they should have their morality judged in the same way anyone else does: by their actions. Then given that Atheists have one of the lowest crime-rates in the world, 'in general' we should probably be considered to be highly moral people (If you really must stereotype)
by Twhupfold on March 17th, 2007
First sentence of the answer "there are many reasons within their varied beliefs which would persuade them to be "good"" seems to agree with your assertons. I disagree on a point. Morality can be derived from the bible, but many who call themselves Christians do not do so. These happen to be the ones in prison. There is no reason for atheists to be considered immoral, I agree, but on the other hand, many of their moral traditions and sociocultural influences on standards of morality are derived from the Bible. In fact, many atheists follow the teachings of the Bible more closely than Christians, without even knowing it. One of my coworkers is a good example, though I won't go into details. You might choose to take offence at that, but it is readily apparent that Bible teachings have influenced the laws and traditions of most countries.
by anonymous on March 17th, 2007
An example of this is actually the very topic we are debating.(Romans 2:12-16) 12 For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused." So the Bible says, not to kill you because you are not Christian, but that you may be "a doer of law", even more so than those who call themselves Christians. By following your conscience you set an example that man can be good, not for the reward or threats, but for love of goodness.
by anonymous on March 17th, 2007
I wouldn't say the Bible has influenced Western culture so much as 'Christianity' has, that includes the people who claim to be Christians (For example, the politicians who create laws may be influenced by their own 'Christian' beleifs, whether or not they are true to the Bible). I really do have to disagree about today's morality being 'derived from the Bible', it is very much present in the Bible, you can find many of today's moral values within it, this is true... But I don't think it is accurate to say they actually came from it originally, many ancient societies shared the laws and morals present in the Bible (societies which existed before it was ever written), so I would think that the Bible is a continuation of the moral values & laws which were already present at it's time of writting. Again, showing that Atheists are equally capable of morality :) (I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying earlier, it isn't my intention to say Christians believe that killing people is what God wants us to do, my intention is to say that the Bible simply isn't the sole source for morality, because it also contains a great deal of things considered immoral, it isn't the original source of morality either, as basically the same core moral values have existed long before it was written; The Bible is just 'a' source of moral values, when it comes to morality it is nothing special, it contains good verses and bad verses. Societies have existed completely seperate from any Biblical influence, but have still lived by the moral values which are present within it.)
by Twhupfold on March 17th, 2007
Well, when I speak of the Bible it is not just in the present form, it was written over a period of more than 1600 years. The first texts would have influenced the earlier writers, but the ones written 1600 years later could not, of course. The influences of the Bible go back further than you concede, if you consider the individual texts and not the compilation of books in the present form. Long before it was written in any form there was also an oral tradition. I think that there are no "bad verses" in the Bible, there are certainly many that are misunderstood or applied incorrectly. Which is the reason for the Messiah, who came to make the law perfect, and explain it.
by anonymous on March 18th, 2007
That's fair enough ;) But consider that when you say the Bible is merely the written form of much older oral traditions, that is the same as what I said; that the Bible is just a 'continuation' of already existing moral values, it is not 'the source', but 'a source', again supporting my key point that Atheists are equally capable of morality :) (And btw, I really appreciate your understanding of the Bible, it's much more mature and in-depth than many 'Christians' - You've obviously read it for starters, which many Christians haven't - You seem to grasp the metaphorical, deeper meanings of it, and not take it for face-value as quite a few people do)
by Twhupfold on March 18th, 2007
"As the Bible says, men without law who follow it by nature actually prove the law, and prove Satan a liar; they prove that man is good and worth saving."
I do not remember reading anything like that in the bible. Could you point to the place where you found it ?
regards JakobA
by JakobA I^_^I the alooney on January 22nd, 2011